EPTI just tried it. Got hit in the face by a hoof, I blame you.
How do we measure GOATs without Korean SC2? - Page 4
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
I just tried it. Got hit in the face by a hoof, I blame you. | ||
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luxon
United States117 Posts
Also GOATs can be argued on different metrics, but I think everyone (over the age of say 24) can agree the most *dominant* player of all time was Life. He can't get any longevity titles because he was banned, but I can't remember another player besides BW Flash in which we couldn't have a balance discussion until he played it. He was untouchable at his best, and he was insanely young too. | ||
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
It’s okay. Lets the haters hate they are the minorities. They can keep trying to throw Maru name in the conversation to keep him relevant but Rogue is still the best Korean sc2 player Serral has already been the general consensus GOAT when he won the world championship again last year. | ||
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allmotor1
153 Posts
On March 02 2023 02:28 xsnac wrote: there is one simple metric that people who are under 30 will never understand. money. thats how you measure things in real life. the goat has the most money. I will let the list talk. https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii this is such a stupid take lol. I'm over 30 and well off. Money doesn't measure everything. Especially in tournament winnings when there are multiple factors, like region lock and a much harder region (the Koreans competing in). | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13994 Posts
On March 02 2023 08:48 TossHeroes wrote: It’s okay. Lets the haters hate they are the minorities. They can keep trying to throw Maru name in the conversation to keep him relevant but Rogue is still the best Korean sc2 player Serral has already been the general consensus GOAT when he won the world championship again last year. Serious question, when did you start following sc2 pro scene? | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
Though I don't think you can claim there is a GOAT. Imo, you can claim the following: Best player in WoL: Mvp Best player in HotS: Best player in Lotv from 2015 to 2016 (kespa fall) This one is tricky, but maybe Maru/Rain/Innovation Best player in Lotv post 2016-2021, The "zerg era". This era is tainted by the destruction of the korean scene. Make no mistake. It is nocoincidence that foreigner players weren't able to truly be competitive (except stephano sometimes) with koreans until KeSPA died, and anyone saying otherwise is either cluelessly biased or malicious in their argument. In this Period Serral has a case of being the best player, but Maru also has a case as well, and Rogue, which isn't a fan favorite but boy is he good. As for overall best player, it's impossible to say. It's definitely not serral, that's for sure. He only got there when Korean scene exploded and Zerg became OP (and yes, it is also not a coincidence that the only foreigners to ever truly compete vs Koreans are zerg). If I had to say someone it would have to be Maru for being consistently good since 2010. No other player comes close. | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On March 02 2023 11:11 [Phantom] wrote: I think we can't say for sure until we see how many korean pros keep playing. Though I don't think you can claim there is a GOAT. Imo, you can claim the following: Best player in WoL: Mvp Best player in HotS: Best player in Lotv from 2015 to 2016 (kespa fall) This one is tricky, but maybe Maru/Rain/Innovation Best player in Lotv post 2016-2021, The "zerg era". This era is tainted by the destruction of the korean scene. Make no mistake. It is nocoincidence that foreigner players weren't able to truly be competitive (except stephano sometimes) with koreans until KeSPA died, and anyone saying otherwise is either cluelessly biased or malicious in their argument. In this Period Serral has a case of being the best player, but Maru also has a case as well, and Rogue, which isn't a fan favorite but boy is he good. As for overall best player, it's impossible to say. It's definitely not serral, that's for sure. He only got there when Korean scene exploded and Zerg became OP (and yes, it is also not a coincidence that the only foreigners to ever truly compete vs Koreans are zerg). If I had to say someone it would have to be Maru for being consistently good since 2010. No other player comes close. This guy is such a troll | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On March 02 2023 08:21 luxon wrote: Man this thread has really turned into a GOAT debate, when I just wanted to know if people would consider sc2 from here on out part of the sc2 history/all time discussion or not. Basically when do we as a community move it from a pro sport to an amateur one? If not now then when? That has been discussed on the first pages. The answer is no, future titles aren't really relevant for determining the Goat | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On March 02 2023 08:48 TossHeroes wrote: It’s okay. Lets the haters hate they are the minorities. They can keep trying to throw Maru name in the conversation to keep him relevant but Rogue is still the best Korean sc2 player Serral has already been the general consensus GOAT when he won the world championship again last year. Consensus by whom? You and the 5 other Serral fanboys here? I don't think you understand the meaning of the word consensus, this thread alone shows there is no consensus | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
Are you talking about Phantom? His picks are all super reasonable, and the same ones I would say. Personally I don't understand people saying Serral is the GOAT. Based on titles, most of his wins are EU tournaments with little to no KR talent there. Sure he's won like a GSL vs the World, and an IEM Katowice, but there are many other players who have also won a world championship (Katowice or Blizzcon/WCS), and that alone doesn't make them the best. Do I think that he was the GOAT in skill at a certain point of time? Yeah, I do think he was the best player when he won Katowice. But he didn't maintain that dominance or consistency after 2018. He was still good in 2019-2020, but it fell off a bit already as he was losing titles to Reynor, and didn't win another world championship or GSL event. In order to stand out as the GOAT of all SC2 from 2010-2022, I think you need to be dominant in more than just 1 year. If he was as dominant as he was at his peak in 2018-2019, in like at least 1 other year, then I think he'd have a more solid argument. For me, the list goes like this (players are ordered within tiers by commas) S: Maru/Rogue S-: Innovation/Life A+: MVP/Dark, sOs/Stats, Taeja A: Serral/MC, Classic/MMA, Zest, Polt, soO, Nestea, Rain | ||
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Glorfindelio
223 Posts
But really the most honest answer, in fact, is that there isn't a clear GOAT in SC2. And I can say that as a huge fan of Maru and Serral (and to a lesser extent, Rogue). It''s any one of those three--take it from someone who isn't a blatant fanboy of a certain player unlike other posters here. I've watched SC2 professionally since the first GSL, and that's the honest, unbiased truth. It would have been Maru, clearly, if he had simply won Katowice. How is that fair, you might ask? Didn't Time/Oliveira play out of his mind? Maybe, but Maru also choked multiple games away with very questionable decision-making and a weird casualness to his play. Maru finally, FINALLY, had an easy path to the finals, and he blew it. The most dominant, historically great TvT player, top 1-2 on most people's list of GOAT, got roasted by someone who won their first Premier tournament at his expense. A 4-1 loss in the grand finals of the World Championship with everything lined-up for his crowning victory, at last. In ANY other real sport, losing a championship like that would be a crushing defeat and huge, irrevocable stain on someone's legacy. Crumbling like that has to matter, and it basically switched my answer forever to this question. You could argue that Maru's excellence or bracket luck shouldn't be held against him--but sorry, that's not how sports work. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On March 02 2023 18:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Are you talking about Phantom? His picks are all super reasonable, and the same ones I would say. Personally I don't understand people saying Serral is the GOAT. Based on titles, most of his wins are EU tournaments with little to no KR talent there. Sure he's won like a GSL vs the World, and an IEM Katowice, but there are many other players who have also won a world championship (Katowice or Blizzcon/WCS), and that alone doesn't make them the best. Do I think that he was the GOAT in skill at a certain point of time? Yeah, I do think he was the best player when he won Katowice. But he didn't maintain that dominance or consistency after 2018. He was still good in 2019-2020, but it fell off a bit already as he was losing titles to Reynor, and didn't win another world championship or GSL event. In order to stand out as the GOAT of all SC2 from 2010-2022, I think you need to be dominant in more than just 1 year. If he was as dominant as he was at his peak in 2018-2019, in like at least 1 other year, then I think he'd have a more solid argument. For me, the list goes like this (players are ordered within tiers by commas) S: Maru/Rogue S-: Innovation/Life A+: MVP/Dark, sOs/Stats, Taeja A: Serral/MC, Classic/MMA, Zest, Polt, soO, Nestea, Rain Partially agreed with your list. I will add Serral on A+ list, but definitely he can't be higher than S- list. Only bloody fool followers won't agree, insistently putting Serral on everyone else. | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On March 02 2023 20:54 swarminfestor wrote: Partially agreed with your list. I will add Serral on A+ list, but definitely he can't be higher than S- list. Only bloody fool followers won't agree, insistently putting Serral on everyone else. nah u guys are so delusional | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On March 02 2023 18:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Are you talking about Phantom? His picks are all super reasonable, and the same ones I would say. Personally I don't understand people saying Serral is the GOAT. Based on titles, most of his wins are EU tournaments with little to no KR talent there. Sure he's won like a GSL vs the World, and an IEM Katowice, but there are many other players who have also won a world championship (Katowice or Blizzcon/WCS), and that alone doesn't make them the best. Do I think that he was the GOAT in skill at a certain point of time? Yeah, I do think he was the best player when he won Katowice. But he didn't maintain that dominance or consistency after 2018. He was still good in 2019-2020, but it fell off a bit already as he was losing titles to Reynor, and didn't win another world championship or GSL event. In order to stand out as the GOAT of all SC2 from 2010-2022, I think you need to be dominant in more than just 1 year. If he was as dominant as he was at his peak in 2018-2019, in like at least 1 other year, then I think he'd have a more solid argument. For me, the list goes like this (players are ordered within tiers by commas) S: Maru/Rogue S-: Innovation/Life A+: MVP/Dark, sOs/Stats, Taeja A: Serral/MC, Classic/MMA, Zest, Polt, soO, Nestea, Rain Phantom's picks are almost reasonable even if there's no way Maru could have been the best in HoTS or pre KeSpa fall LoTV. What is not reasonable is his borderline racist idea for which essentially koreans are superior and only the super op Zerg can make foreigners win, an idea we can laugh at after a chinese won a World Championship by defeating said Maru in his best mu, Terran vs Terran... I think you might have missed that, out of his 19 "Premier" tournaments Serral won only that were 2 EU locked and 7 overall without korean representation. You are also missing that he won BlizzCon(a world championship) way before Katowice(he also won 2 GSL vs the World). Serral also never lost consistency, out of 46 Premier tounaments from 2018 to 2023 he had a result worse than ro8 only 3 times while winning more than any other player had in the history of Sc2. As I previously said, it's fine if you don't consider Serral to be the GOAT but he is a contender and there is no way he can be placed as low as you and others do. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7142 Posts
There you have it. To the topic: Have any Koreans officially called it quits yet? If there is no huge wave, I would consider this coming year at the same level as last and therefore count it the same way as last year. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On March 02 2023 18:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Are you talking about Phantom? His picks are all super reasonable, and the same ones I would say. Personally I don't understand people saying Serral is the GOAT. Based on titles, most of his wins are EU tournaments with little to no KR talent there. Sure he's won like a GSL vs the World, and an IEM Katowice, but there are many other players who have also won a world championship (Katowice or Blizzcon/WCS), and that alone doesn't make them the best. Do I think that he was the GOAT in skill at a certain point of time? Yeah, I do think he was the best player when he won Katowice. But he didn't maintain that dominance or consistency after 2018. He was still good in 2019-2020, but it fell off a bit already as he was losing titles to Reynor, and didn't win another world championship or GSL event. In order to stand out as the GOAT of all SC2 from 2010-2022, I think you need to be dominant in more than just 1 year. If he was as dominant as he was at his peak in 2018-2019, in like at least 1 other year, then I think he'd have a more solid argument. For me, the list goes like this (players are ordered within tiers by commas) S: Maru/Rogue S-: Innovation/Life A+: MVP/Dark, sOs/Stats, Taeja A: Serral/MC, Classic/MMA, Zest, Polt, soO, Nestea, Rain Find me one year of Innovation's career that was better than any Serral year between 2019 and 2021 | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On March 02 2023 21:15 Xain0n wrote: Phantom's picks are almost reasonable even if there's no way Maru could have been the best in HoTS or pre KeSpa fall LoTV. What is not reasonable is his borderline racist idea for which essentially koreans are superior and only the super op Zerg can make foreigners win, an idea we can laugh at after a chinese won a World Championship by defeating said Maru in his best mu, Terran vs Terran... I mean, it's a fact that foreigners were completely irrelevant when Kespa were still active. While I agree that Serral (and also Reynor) are incredible talents and would've been able to win tournaments in any era, it can't be denied that it would've been way harder for them to win in the Kespa era and also that they had a slightly easier time winning tournaments than the players of the other races. That HAS to be factored in. I think you might have missed that, out of his 19 "Premier" tournaments Serral won only that were 2 EU locked and 7 overall without korean representation. You are also missing that he won BlizzCon(a world championship) way before Katowice(he also won 2 GSL vs the World). Serral also never lost consistency, out of 46 Premier tounaments from 2018 to 2023 he had a result worse than ro8 only 3 times while winning more than any other player had in the history of Sc2. As I previously said, it's fine if you don't consider Serral to be the GOAT but he is a contender and there is no way he can be placed as low as you and others do. Considering the nature of the tournaments he plays in he's almost guaranteed to be consistent though. He mostly plays tournaments with either only foreigners or tournaments where the groupstage has 1 other weak foreigner in it. Anyway, I disagree with the list of the previous poster, given his list of accomplishments you can't really argue Serral is not a top 4 player all time at this point. Where I disagree is that he's above Maru or Rogue | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On March 02 2023 21:41 Harris1st wrote: The GOAT is either Serroguaru, Marralogue or Rogmarral There you have it. To the topic: Have any Koreans officially called it quits yet? If there is no huge wave, I would consider this coming year at the same level as last and therefore count it the same way as last year. No but apparently they have stopped practicing as of now | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On March 02 2023 22:01 Nakajin wrote: Find me one year of Innovation's career that was better than any Serral year between 2019 and 2021 On March 02 2023 18:13 Charoisaur wrote: Consensus by whom? You and the 5 other Serral fanboys here? I don't think you understand the meaning of the word consensus, this thread alone shows there is no consensus While consensus is maybe a bit strong, there is no doubt the general oppinion outside of this website is that Serral is the GOAT. (Just erase your history and google "Greatest Starcraft 2 players of all time"). Now it dosen't mean they are right, the outside world also try to convince me Heromarine is a superior player to Cure, but its definitly the case. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On March 02 2023 22:22 Nakajin wrote: While consensus is maybe a bit strong, there is no doubt the general oppinion outside of this website is that Serral is the GOAT. (Just erase your history and google "Greatest Starcraft 2 players of all time"). Now it dosen't mean they are right, the outside world also try to convince me Heromarine is a superior player to Cure, but its definitly the case. Did that, the first 5 links that appear have respectively Rogue, Rogue, Life, Serral, Mvp at the top of their lists | ||
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