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On March 02 2023 18:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 08:48 TossHeroes wrote:On March 02 2023 01:31 CicadaSC wrote:On March 02 2023 01:09 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 01 2023 14:15 TossHeroes wrote:
Serral is already the cemented general consensus GOAT
Everyone else is just battling for 2nd place Cope how is that cope? It’s okay. Lets the haters hate they are the minorities. They can keep trying to throw Maru name in the conversation to keep him relevant but Rogue is still the best Korean sc2 player Serral has already been the general consensus GOAT when he won the world championship again last year. Consensus by whom? You and the 5 other Serral fanboys here? I don't think you understand the meaning of the word consensus, this thread alone shows there is no consensus
Ah the usual Maru fanboy is here right on schedule.
I know this is a hard concept for you kids to understand. The general consensus has already been proven multiple times. On every poll during some tournaments, online, etc, Serral has won the GOAT poll by a landslide.
I’ll take the opinion of the majority fanbase over 5 Maru fanboys on TL posters
Only Maru fanboys on TL are still salty Serral already surpassed Maru since 2019. Once Maru wins one world champion then he will close the gap a bit. Which should be easier now since the scene is sinking more and more. Just like how Maru finally won his GSLs, had to wait for his competition to go to the army or got older
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On March 02 2023 16:15 BelethielQT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 11:11 [Phantom] wrote:
I think we can't say for sure until we see how many korean pros keep playing.
Though I don't think you can claim there is a GOAT.
Imo, you can claim the following:
Best player in WoL: Mvp
Best player in HotS: Life Maru? sOs? Innovation?
Best player in Lotv from 2015 to 2016 (kespa fall) This one is tricky, but maybe Maru/Rain/Innovation
Best player in Lotv post 2016-2021, The "zerg era". This era is tainted by the destruction of the korean scene. Make no mistake. It is nocoincidence that foreigner players weren't able to truly be competitive (except stephano sometimes) with koreans until KeSPA died, and anyone saying otherwise is either cluelessly biased or malicious in their argument. In this Period Serral has a case of being the best player, but Maru also has a case as well, and Rogue, which isn't a fan favorite but boy is he good.
As for overall best player, it's impossible to say. It's definitely not serral, that's for sure. He only got there when Korean scene exploded and Zerg became OP (and yes, it is also not a coincidence that the only foreigners to ever truly compete vs Koreans are zerg).
If I had to say someone it would have to be Maru for being consistently good since 2010. No other player comes close. This guy is such a troll
Most of his post are troll posts but it’s quite entertaining.
It’s his gimmick
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On March 02 2023 22:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 21:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2023 18:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 02 2023 16:15 BelethielQT wrote:On March 02 2023 11:11 [Phantom] wrote:
I think we can't say for sure until we see how many korean pros keep playing.
Though I don't think you can claim there is a GOAT.
Imo, you can claim the following:
Best player in WoL: Mvp
Best player in HotS: Life Maru? sOs? Innovation?
Best player in Lotv from 2015 to 2016 (kespa fall) This one is tricky, but maybe Maru/Rain/Innovation
Best player in Lotv post 2016-2021, The "zerg era". This era is tainted by the destruction of the korean scene. Make no mistake. It is nocoincidence that foreigner players weren't able to truly be competitive (except stephano sometimes) with koreans until KeSPA died, and anyone saying otherwise is either cluelessly biased or malicious in their argument. In this Period Serral has a case of being the best player, but Maru also has a case as well, and Rogue, which isn't a fan favorite but boy is he good.
As for overall best player, it's impossible to say. It's definitely not serral, that's for sure. He only got there when Korean scene exploded and Zerg became OP (and yes, it is also not a coincidence that the only foreigners to ever truly compete vs Koreans are zerg).
If I had to say someone it would have to be Maru for being consistently good since 2010. No other player comes close. This guy is such a troll Are you talking about Phantom? His picks are all super reasonable, and the same ones I would say. Personally I don't understand people saying Serral is the GOAT. Based on titles, most of his wins are EU tournaments with little to no KR talent there. Sure he's won like a GSL vs the World, and an IEM Katowice, but there are many other players who have also won a world championship (Katowice or Blizzcon/WCS), and that alone doesn't make them the best. Do I think that he was the GOAT in skill at a certain point of time? Yeah, I do think he was the best player when he won Katowice. But he didn't maintain that dominance or consistency after 2018. He was still good in 2019-2020, but it fell off a bit already as he was losing titles to Reynor, and didn't win another world championship or GSL event. In order to stand out as the GOAT of all SC2 from 2010-2022, I think you need to be dominant in more than just 1 year. If he was as dominant as he was at his peak in 2018-2019, in like at least 1 other year, then I think he'd have a more solid argument. For me, the list goes like this (players are ordered within tiers by commas) S: Maru/Rogue S-: Innovation/Life A+: MVP/Dark, sOs/Stats, Taeja A: Serral/MC, Classic/MMA, Zest, Polt, soO, Nestea, Rain Phantom's picks are almost reasonable even if there's no way Maru could have been the best in HoTS or pre KeSpa fall LoTV. What is not reasonable is his borderline racist idea for which essentially koreans are superior and only the super op Zerg can make foreigners win, an idea we can laugh at after a chinese won a World Championship by defeating said Maru in his best mu, Terran vs Terran... I mean, it's a fact that foreigners were completely irrelevant when Kespa were still active. While I agree that Serral (and also Reynor) are incredible talents and would've been able to win tournaments in any era, it can't be denied that it would've been way harder for them to win in the Kespa era and also that they had a slightly easier time winning tournaments than the players of the other races. That HAS to be factored in. Show nested quote +
I think you might have missed that, out of his 19 "Premier" tournaments Serral won only that were 2 EU locked and 7 overall without korean representation.
You are also missing that he won BlizzCon(a world championship) way before Katowice(he also won 2 GSL vs the World).
Serral also never lost consistency, out of 46 Premier tounaments from 2018 to 2023 he had a result worse than ro8 only 3 times while winning more than any other player had in the history of Sc2.
As I previously said, it's fine if you don't consider Serral to be the GOAT but he is a contender and there is no way he can be placed as low as you and others do.
Considering the nature of the tournaments he plays in he's almost guaranteed to be consistent though. He mostly plays tournaments with either only foreigners or tournaments where the groupstage has 1 other weak foreigner in it. Anyway, I disagree with the list of the previous poster, given his list of accomplishments you can't really argue Serral is not a top 4 player all time at this point. Where I disagree is that he's above Maru or Rogue
Serral would still be the most consistent player if we only were to consider international events(no korean ones and no region locked ones) from 2018 to 2023.
KeSpa and HoTS were the nail in the coffin of foreign sc2 which was indeed irrelevant at the time and one could wonder if Serral and Reynor would have developed into the players they are now under those circumstances, had the region lock never taken place. Once completely bloomed, tho, their skill couldn't have possibly be denied, no matter how competitively crowded the scene would have been.
While it's true that Serral would have probably won less against a greater number of top koreans, the question you aren't asking yourself is if Maru would have won five GSL with KeSpa still around or even worse if Rogue would have won four considering he started doing so at the end of 2019 after never going past the ro8 for years.
To my eyes, Maru's claim for GOAT only has the(major) flaw of never winning a global final(let alone winning offline tournaments outside of Asia) whereas Rogue's has many more.
The clutchest(and one of the most abusive) player ever, I can't deny that Rogue is undoubtly a top as far as skill and a mindgames go, especially during his best periods towards the end of 2017 and 2021 respectively.
However, do you think his sparkling 7-0 record in bo7 offline finals would have been intact if Code S were as competitive as it was during the KeSPa era? Don't you think that Rogue could have taken advantage of Zerg being very strong in the last years of LoTV while surpassing his limits in Code S?
Moreover, when Rogue didn't outright win(and his victories do indeed possess the highest average quality as far as prestige goes), his placements were meager when compared to Maru's or Serral's; a player with such achievements deserves to be ranked highly in a GOAT list but could never be the one, imho.
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On March 01 2023 10:15 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.
But it's Serral. Serral isn't above maru rogue or Mvp
In between 2018 and 2022, Serral was above Maru and Rogue, or at least same level.
Not one player had advantage over Serral in 1v1 statistics. Lots of Code S players had Serral as their nemesis in Aligulac.
Serral is currently Maru's top 1 Nemesis in 1v1. Serrals nemesis are all from Wol era.
Serral stayed this whole period in top of Aligulac's rating, and became the highest earning players in SCII.
Also, he had the most Top 4 finishes, alongside Rogue and Maru, and...simply...2 World titles.
What more do you need to be GOAT contender?
It doesnt make sense to consider Maru and Rogue as GOAT contenders, when Serral wiped the floor with the entire world at the same time the previous two were on top form.
Its also doesnt make sense to consider MvP and not Serral, when MvP had a lot of his accomplishments in a time where the meta was beta, at best.
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Canada8988 Posts
On March 02 2023 22:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 22:22 Nakajin wrote:On March 02 2023 22:01 Nakajin wrote:On March 02 2023 18:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 02 2023 16:15 BelethielQT wrote:On March 02 2023 11:11 [Phantom] wrote:
I think we can't say for sure until we see how many korean pros keep playing.
Though I don't think you can claim there is a GOAT.
Imo, you can claim the following:
Best player in WoL: Mvp
Best player in HotS: Life Maru? sOs? Innovation?
Best player in Lotv from 2015 to 2016 (kespa fall) This one is tricky, but maybe Maru/Rain/Innovation
Best player in Lotv post 2016-2021, The "zerg era". This era is tainted by the destruction of the korean scene. Make no mistake. It is nocoincidence that foreigner players weren't able to truly be competitive (except stephano sometimes) with koreans until KeSPA died, and anyone saying otherwise is either cluelessly biased or malicious in their argument. In this Period Serral has a case of being the best player, but Maru also has a case as well, and Rogue, which isn't a fan favorite but boy is he good.
As for overall best player, it's impossible to say. It's definitely not serral, that's for sure. He only got there when Korean scene exploded and Zerg became OP (and yes, it is also not a coincidence that the only foreigners to ever truly compete vs Koreans are zerg).
If I had to say someone it would have to be Maru for being consistently good since 2010. No other player comes close. This guy is such a troll Are you talking about Phantom? His picks are all super reasonable, and the same ones I would say. Personally I don't understand people saying Serral is the GOAT. Based on titles, most of his wins are EU tournaments with little to no KR talent there. Sure he's won like a GSL vs the World, and an IEM Katowice, but there are many other players who have also won a world championship (Katowice or Blizzcon/WCS), and that alone doesn't make them the best. Do I think that he was the GOAT in skill at a certain point of time? Yeah, I do think he was the best player when he won Katowice. But he didn't maintain that dominance or consistency after 2018. He was still good in 2019-2020, but it fell off a bit already as he was losing titles to Reynor, and didn't win another world championship or GSL event. In order to stand out as the GOAT of all SC2 from 2010-2022, I think you need to be dominant in more than just 1 year. If he was as dominant as he was at his peak in 2018-2019, in like at least 1 other year, then I think he'd have a more solid argument. For me, the list goes like this (players are ordered within tiers by commas) S: Maru/Rogue S-: Innovation/Life A+: MVP/Dark, sOs/Stats, Taeja A: Serral/MC, Classic/MMA, Zest, Polt, soO, Nestea, Rain Find me one year of Innovation's career that was better than any Serral year between 2019 and 2021 On March 02 2023 18:13 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2023 08:48 TossHeroes wrote:On March 02 2023 01:31 CicadaSC wrote:On March 02 2023 01:09 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 01 2023 14:15 TossHeroes wrote:
Serral is already the cemented general consensus GOAT
Everyone else is just battling for 2nd place Cope how is that cope? It’s okay. Lets the haters hate they are the minorities. They can keep trying to throw Maru name in the conversation to keep him relevant but Rogue is still the best Korean sc2 player Serral has already been the general consensus GOAT when he won the world championship again last year. Consensus by whom? You and the 5 other Serral fanboys here? I don't think you understand the meaning of the word consensus, this thread alone shows there is no consensus While consensus is maybe a bit strong, there is no doubt the general oppinion outside of this website is that Serral is the GOAT. (Just erase your history and google "Greatest Starcraft 2 players of all time"). Now it dosen't mean they are right, the outside world also try to convince me Heromarine is a superior player to Cure, but its definitly the case. Did that, the first 5 links that appear have respectively Rogue, Rogue, Life, Serral, Mvp at the top of their lists
Huh, the algorithm work in misterious way then, first hit google gave me was Serral.
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United States441 Posts
The thing no one mentions for some reason, why were foreigners never good when Kespa and the korean infrastructure was actually in place. The truth is although the skill is higher these days, since weve been playing it longer etc, if in some other timeline the team houses and pro league never died foreigners still wouldnt be good and the overall level of play would be much higher. Now that foreigners and koreans are basically training in the same way its no surprise that parity has increased.
So while Serral Reynor etc are good players they are better able to compete because the entire environment is different. I personally dont really consider Serral one of the possible goats. Imo it has to be either Rogue/Inno/Maru
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On March 03 2023 00:30 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2023 10:15 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.
But it's Serral. Serral isn't above maru rogue or Mvp In between 2018 and 2022, Serral was above Maru and Rogue, or at least same level. Not one player had advantage over Serral in 1v1 statistics. Lots of Code S players had Serral as their nemesis in Aligulac. Serral is currently Maru's top 1 Nemesis in 1v1. Serrals nemesis are all from Wol era. Serral stayed this whole period in top of Aligulac's rating, and became the highest earning players in SCII. Also, he had the most Top 4 finishes, alongside Rogue and Maru, and...simply...2 World titles. What more do you need to be GOAT contender? It doesnt make sense to consider Maru and Rogue as GOAT contenders, when Serral wiped the floor with the entire world at the same time the previous two were on top form. Its also doesnt make sense to consider MvP and not Serral, when MvP had a lot of his accomplishments in a time where the meta was beta, at best.
He could win more tournaments that have the majority of competitors present like Maru and Rogue have done.
Aligulac could be used for or against Serral. I guarantee if you look at the average aligulac ranking of all players in each event Serral has won vs the same for the tournaments Maru and Rogue have won the Maru/Rogue tournaments will have a far higher average level of player per aligulac.
Winning an event where 80% of the top 20 is present is way harder than winning one where only 50% of the top 20 is present. Basically all of Maru/Rogues events are the former while Serral is basically all the latter besides his world championships. All you have to do is remove region locked events and Serral is already below Maru in premiers won. If you remove HSC and region locked he's way below both of them.
That's before even getting into Maru's proleague results, intra-race performance, and longevity.
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On March 02 2023 22:01 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 18:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 02 2023 16:15 BelethielQT wrote:On March 02 2023 11:11 [Phantom] wrote:
I think we can't say for sure until we see how many korean pros keep playing.
Though I don't think you can claim there is a GOAT.
Imo, you can claim the following:
Best player in WoL: Mvp
Best player in HotS: Life Maru? sOs? Innovation?
Best player in Lotv from 2015 to 2016 (kespa fall) This one is tricky, but maybe Maru/Rain/Innovation
Best player in Lotv post 2016-2021, The "zerg era". This era is tainted by the destruction of the korean scene. Make no mistake. It is nocoincidence that foreigner players weren't able to truly be competitive (except stephano sometimes) with koreans until KeSPA died, and anyone saying otherwise is either cluelessly biased or malicious in their argument. In this Period Serral has a case of being the best player, but Maru also has a case as well, and Rogue, which isn't a fan favorite but boy is he good.
As for overall best player, it's impossible to say. It's definitely not serral, that's for sure. He only got there when Korean scene exploded and Zerg became OP (and yes, it is also not a coincidence that the only foreigners to ever truly compete vs Koreans are zerg).
If I had to say someone it would have to be Maru for being consistently good since 2010. No other player comes close. This guy is such a troll Are you talking about Phantom? His picks are all super reasonable, and the same ones I would say. Personally I don't understand people saying Serral is the GOAT. Based on titles, most of his wins are EU tournaments with little to no KR talent there. Sure he's won like a GSL vs the World, and an IEM Katowice, but there are many other players who have also won a world championship (Katowice or Blizzcon/WCS), and that alone doesn't make them the best. Do I think that he was the GOAT in skill at a certain point of time? Yeah, I do think he was the best player when he won Katowice. But he didn't maintain that dominance or consistency after 2018. He was still good in 2019-2020, but it fell off a bit already as he was losing titles to Reynor, and didn't win another world championship or GSL event. In order to stand out as the GOAT of all SC2 from 2010-2022, I think you need to be dominant in more than just 1 year. If he was as dominant as he was at his peak in 2018-2019, in like at least 1 other year, then I think he'd have a more solid argument. For me, the list goes like this (players are ordered within tiers by commas) S: Maru/Rogue S-: Innovation/Life A+: MVP/Dark, sOs/Stats, Taeja A: Serral/MC, Classic/MMA, Zest, Polt, soO, Nestea, Rain Find me one year of Innovation's career that was better than any Serral year between 2019 and 2021
In my opinion, any year where he placed round of 8 or higher in GSL.
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The amount of people in this thread that thinks maru has never won a world championship is halarious
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On March 03 2023 03:58 THERIDDLER wrote:
The amount of people in this thread that thinks maru has never won a world championship is halarious
It is just pure hate from the adherents of church of Serral.
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On March 03 2023 03:58 THERIDDLER wrote:
The amount of people in this thread that thinks maru has never won a world championship is halarious
I mean I consider Maru the goat but WESG isn't the same as Katowice/Blizzcon. It is underrated though. It's harder (especially for Koreans due to their qualifiers player pool) than anything Serral has won besides his Katowice/Blizzcon.
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On March 02 2023 23:26 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 18:13 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2023 08:48 TossHeroes wrote:On March 02 2023 01:31 CicadaSC wrote:On March 02 2023 01:09 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 01 2023 14:15 TossHeroes wrote:
Serral is already the cemented general consensus GOAT
Everyone else is just battling for 2nd place Cope how is that cope? It’s okay. Lets the haters hate they are the minorities. They can keep trying to throw Maru name in the conversation to keep him relevant but Rogue is still the best Korean sc2 player Serral has already been the general consensus GOAT when he won the world championship again last year. Consensus by whom? You and the 5 other Serral fanboys here? I don't think you understand the meaning of the word consensus, this thread alone shows there is no consensus Ah the usual Maru fanboy is here right on schedule. I know this is a hard concept for you kids to understand. The general consensus has already been proven multiple times. On every poll during some tournaments, online, etc, Serral has won the GOAT poll by a landslide. I’ll take the opinion of the majority fanbase over 5 Maru fanboys on TL posters Only Maru fanboys on TL are still salty Serral already surpassed Maru since 2019. Once Maru wins one world champion then he will close the gap a bit. Which should be easier now since the scene is sinking more and more. Just like how Maru finally won his GSLs, had to wait for his competition to go to the army or got older
Link or are you talking out of your ass?
I say the general consensus is that Maru is the Goat and Serral fanboys are salty, what now?
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Mexico2170 Posts
On March 02 2023 21:15 Xain0n wrote:
Phantom's picks are almost reasonable even if there's no way Maru could have been the best in HoTS or pre KeSpa fall LoTV.
What is not reasonable is his borderline racist idea for which essentially koreans are superior and only the super op Zerg can make foreigners win, an idea we can laugh at after a chinese won a World Championship by defeating said Maru in his best mu, Terran vs Terran...
It's not racist, but it's about infrastructure.
The ammount of money spent on Korean esports was massive.
Korea had incredibly big sponsors. There were team houses, where not only players practiced together, they had dedicated coaches. Often times they even had multiple coaches. This means players didn't only practice for hours a day, but they had people guiding them in how to improve. Look at Maru now. In the world finals he called Ryung as his coach to support him and Ryung said he had never helped maru prepare for the tournament or seen his builds. Don't you think an actual professional coach would have helped Maru prepare better? Or focus better during the finals?
And it is a well known fact that pros practice less hours now than before, as team houses were very strict with schedules.
So, less practice hours plus lack of dedicated team houses and coaches, and less money, means less practice, less skill.
Saying players are better now than they were before is not something I agree with. Not because you keep doing something you get better. that's actually false. You can plateu, or even get worse. Just see actual athletes or gym trainers. They aren't always consistent, not even the best ones. They can get worse, specially if they lose a trainer, or switch teams. They obviously mantain a very high level, but they don't necessarily improve.
See in the olympics how athletes now are better than athletes in the past? One of the reasons they run faster, jump higher, swim faster, are better at gymnastics, etc is because of all the new training equipment and regimes that have been developed and discovered over the years. What if suddenly you take that away, what happens to the atheletes? They might remember some of they things they did, but not all, and they no longer have access to all the faicilities, equipment, staff etc. Their skill will without a doubt go slightly down. they will still be top tier, but it will not be the same.
That's what happened in korea.
In any case, even if they were better now than before the main diferentiator is gone. Without team houses, big salaries and stric training regimes, they are the same as foreigners. That is what allowed the rest of the world to catch up. It'sjust a fact. Now, training regimens are similar across the world and the playing field is even.
Serral is without a doubt a prodigy. You can see that Korean pro players respect him, and he has the potential to be even better than he is now, if he had access to what KeSPA had. But that is also true for Koreans.
Because of that it's impossible to compare starcraft 2 success after the fall of KeSPA.
So Serral success came after the Korean scene had imploded, and in a period where, Zerg became very strong.
Serral is without a doubt one of the best players in the game since 2018, but other players have done very well in that time too, and many, like Maru, did well before that time period too, when competition was at it's fiercest.
For me it's hard to say Maru is the goat. But it's easy for me to say Serral isn't. He had too much in his favor, and for a short period of time. I have zero doubts Life would have done better than him if he had kept playing, for example. And reynor and rogue are also great players during this time.
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On March 03 2023 00:18 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 22:17 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2023 21:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2023 18:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 02 2023 16:15 BelethielQT wrote:On March 02 2023 11:11 [Phantom] wrote:
I think we can't say for sure until we see how many korean pros keep playing.
Though I don't think you can claim there is a GOAT.
Imo, you can claim the following:
Best player in WoL: Mvp
Best player in HotS: Life Maru? sOs? Innovation?
Best player in Lotv from 2015 to 2016 (kespa fall) This one is tricky, but maybe Maru/Rain/Innovation
Best player in Lotv post 2016-2021, The "zerg era". This era is tainted by the destruction of the korean scene. Make no mistake. It is nocoincidence that foreigner players weren't able to truly be competitive (except stephano sometimes) with koreans until KeSPA died, and anyone saying otherwise is either cluelessly biased or malicious in their argument. In this Period Serral has a case of being the best player, but Maru also has a case as well, and Rogue, which isn't a fan favorite but boy is he good.
As for overall best player, it's impossible to say. It's definitely not serral, that's for sure. He only got there when Korean scene exploded and Zerg became OP (and yes, it is also not a coincidence that the only foreigners to ever truly compete vs Koreans are zerg).
If I had to say someone it would have to be Maru for being consistently good since 2010. No other player comes close. This guy is such a troll Are you talking about Phantom? His picks are all super reasonable, and the same ones I would say. Personally I don't understand people saying Serral is the GOAT. Based on titles, most of his wins are EU tournaments with little to no KR talent there. Sure he's won like a GSL vs the World, and an IEM Katowice, but there are many other players who have also won a world championship (Katowice or Blizzcon/WCS), and that alone doesn't make them the best. Do I think that he was the GOAT in skill at a certain point of time? Yeah, I do think he was the best player when he won Katowice. But he didn't maintain that dominance or consistency after 2018. He was still good in 2019-2020, but it fell off a bit already as he was losing titles to Reynor, and didn't win another world championship or GSL event. In order to stand out as the GOAT of all SC2 from 2010-2022, I think you need to be dominant in more than just 1 year. If he was as dominant as he was at his peak in 2018-2019, in like at least 1 other year, then I think he'd have a more solid argument. For me, the list goes like this (players are ordered within tiers by commas) S: Maru/Rogue S-: Innovation/Life A+: MVP/Dark, sOs/Stats, Taeja A: Serral/MC, Classic/MMA, Zest, Polt, soO, Nestea, Rain Phantom's picks are almost reasonable even if there's no way Maru could have been the best in HoTS or pre KeSpa fall LoTV. What is not reasonable is his borderline racist idea for which essentially koreans are superior and only the super op Zerg can make foreigners win, an idea we can laugh at after a chinese won a World Championship by defeating said Maru in his best mu, Terran vs Terran... I mean, it's a fact that foreigners were completely irrelevant when Kespa were still active. While I agree that Serral (and also Reynor) are incredible talents and would've been able to win tournaments in any era, it can't be denied that it would've been way harder for them to win in the Kespa era and also that they had a slightly easier time winning tournaments than the players of the other races. That HAS to be factored in.
I think you might have missed that, out of his 19 "Premier" tournaments Serral won only that were 2 EU locked and 7 overall without korean representation.
You are also missing that he won BlizzCon(a world championship) way before Katowice(he also won 2 GSL vs the World).
Serral also never lost consistency, out of 46 Premier tounaments from 2018 to 2023 he had a result worse than ro8 only 3 times while winning more than any other player had in the history of Sc2.
As I previously said, it's fine if you don't consider Serral to be the GOAT but he is a contender and there is no way he can be placed as low as you and others do.
Considering the nature of the tournaments he plays in he's almost guaranteed to be consistent though. He mostly plays tournaments with either only foreigners or tournaments where the groupstage has 1 other weak foreigner in it. Anyway, I disagree with the list of the previous poster, given his list of accomplishments you can't really argue Serral is not a top 4 player all time at this point. Where I disagree is that he's above Maru or Rogue Serral would still be the most consistent player if we only were to consider international events(no korean ones and no region locked ones) from 2018 to 2023. KeSpa and HoTS were the nail in the coffin of foreign sc2 which was indeed irrelevant at the time and one could wonder if Serral and Reynor would have developed into the players they are now under those circumstances, had the region lock never taken place. Once completely bloomed, tho, their skill couldn't have possibly be denied, no matter how competitively crowded the scene would have been. While it's true that Serral would have probably won less against a greater number of top koreans, the question you aren't asking yourself is if Maru would have won five GSL with KeSpa still around or even worse if Rogue would have won four considering he started doing so at the end of 2019 after never going past the ro8 for years. To my eyes, Maru's claim for GOAT only has the(major) flaw of never winning a global final(let alone winning offline tournaments outside of Asia) whereas Rogue's has many more. The clutchest(and one of the most abusive) player ever, I can't deny that Rogue is undoubtly a top as far as skill and a mindgames go, especially during his best periods towards the end of 2017 and 2021 respectively. However, do you think his sparkling 7-0 record in bo7 offline finals would have been intact if Code S were as competitive as it was during the KeSPa era? Don't you think that Rogue could have taken advantage of Zerg being very strong in the last years of LoTV while surpassing his limits in Code S? Moreover, when Rogue didn't outright win(and his victories do indeed possess the highest average quality as far as prestige goes), his placements were meager when compared to Maru's or Serral's; a player with such achievements deserves to be ranked highly in a GOAT list but could never be the one, imho.
Yeah, for Rogue goes the same as for Serral that he didn't win during the Kespa era and mostly when Zerg was strong, that's why he's not the Goat imo despite having the most impressive resumee.
Maru probably wouldn't have won 4 GSLs in a row if the scene was still just as competitive but he's the only one out of the 3 Goat contenders who actually won tournaments when all players were practicing 24/7 in teamhouses, which is the biggest argument in his favor.
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This is a peak forum thread, with 5 people posting in response to themselves. Glory days indeed.
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On March 02 2023 20:54 swarminfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 18:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 02 2023 16:15 BelethielQT wrote:On March 02 2023 11:11 [Phantom] wrote:
Partially agreed with your list. I will add Serral on A+ list, but definitely he can't be higher than S- list. Only bloody fool followers won't agree, insistently putting Serral on everyone else.
On March 02 2023 21:15 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 18:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 02 2023 16:15 BelethielQT wrote:On March 02 2023 11:11 [Phantom] wrote:
I think you might have missed that, out of his 19 "Premier" tournaments Serral won only that were 2 EU locked and 7 overall without korean representation. You are also missing that he won BlizzCon(a world championship) way before Katowice(he also won 2 GSL vs the World). Serral also never lost consistency, out of 46 Premier tounaments from 2018 to 2023 he had a result worse than ro8 only 3 times while winning more than any other player had in the history of Sc2.
Oops, thanks for pointing that out guys. I actually missed his IEM Katowice and recent wins. Didn't realize 1.5 years already passed since I updated him on my list. So, i missed some of his DH and TSL/HSC wins too.
I personally count GSL vs the World as around a Super tourny, a bit below a normal GSL. And a World Championship a bit above a GSL.
But yes looking at his streak from 2018-2023, he's been very consistent, has a lot of good wins, and it looks muuch more convincing than back then just looking mainly at 2018-2019, where he then fell into a mini slump (relatively).
Now i get why people keep saying Serral is the GOAT lol, he's definitely a contender depending how much you weigh the EU tournies, especially the WCS ones he won in 2018-2019. The DH ones had lots of Koreans, but the 2018-2019 WCS ones were just EU players. He's been very dominant for 5 years though which is a substantial duration of the game's lifespan, and he's been very consistent too. (Life only was dominant for 3 years in comparison).
I think I would update my list like this:
S: Maru/Rogue, Serral
S-: Innovation/Life
A+: MVP/Dark, sOs/Stats, Taeja
A: MC, Classic/MMA, Zest, Polt, soO, Nestea, Rain
I weigh the WCS EU tourny wins less than TSL/HSC/IEMs where KR players participate, but if you weigh them as premieres since they do have a good prize pool and the gap between KR players and non players is pretty small, then he definitely has an argument for being #1. Even if you think the competition isn't as high, it is very impressive to win that many.
To me, Maru/Rogue are still ahead by 1-2 more premiere tournament wins, but Serral still has a valid argument for #1 whereas Innovation and Life to me don't, hence I would Serral in the top tier now.
On March 02 2023 22:01 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 18:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 02 2023 16:15 BelethielQT wrote:On March 02 2023 11:11 [Phantom] wrote:
Find me one year of Innovation's career that was better than any Serral year between 2019 and 2021
Personally I don't really look at the peak year for the sake of it, just what their dominance was like in general
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Serral never won a GSL and Maru never won a Blizzcon. I guess one of those needed to happen during the most competitive era of SC2 in order to bring the GOAT debate to a conclusion. Maru, Rogue and Serral will go on being more or less equal rivals and all have a strong claim to being the greatest SC2 player. I personally give it to Maru because he achieved his success with terran, during patches that were unfavorable, whereas Rogue and Serral never really had to worry about balance. I also think his proleague performances, the prestige of the G5L trophy, and the sheer longevity of Maru in SC2 counts for a lot.
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On March 03 2023 09:46 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2023 00:18 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2023 22:17 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2023 21:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2023 18:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 02 2023 16:15 BelethielQT wrote:On March 02 2023 11:11 [Phantom] wrote:
I think we can't say for sure until we see how many korean pros keep playing.
Though I don't think you can claim there is a GOAT.
Imo, you can claim the following:
Best player in WoL: Mvp
Best player in HotS: Life Maru? sOs? Innovation?
Best player in Lotv from 2015 to 2016 (kespa fall) This one is tricky, but maybe Maru/Rain/Innovation
Best player in Lotv post 2016-2021, The "zerg era". This era is tainted by the destruction of the korean scene. Make no mistake. It is nocoincidence that foreigner players weren't able to truly be competitive (except stephano sometimes) with koreans until KeSPA died, and anyone saying otherwise is either cluelessly biased or malicious in their argument. In this Period Serral has a case of being the best player, but Maru also has a case as well, and Rogue, which isn't a fan favorite but boy is he good.
As for overall best player, it's impossible to say. It's definitely not serral, that's for sure. He only got there when Korean scene exploded and Zerg became OP (and yes, it is also not a coincidence that the only foreigners to ever truly compete vs Koreans are zerg).
If I had to say someone it would have to be Maru for being consistently good since 2010. No other player comes close. This guy is such a troll Are you talking about Phantom? His picks are all super reasonable, and the same ones I would say. Personally I don't understand people saying Serral is the GOAT. Based on titles, most of his wins are EU tournaments with little to no KR talent there. Sure he's won like a GSL vs the World, and an IEM Katowice, but there are many other players who have also won a world championship (Katowice or Blizzcon/WCS), and that alone doesn't make them the best. Do I think that he was the GOAT in skill at a certain point of time? Yeah, I do think he was the best player when he won Katowice. But he didn't maintain that dominance or consistency after 2018. He was still good in 2019-2020, but it fell off a bit already as he was losing titles to Reynor, and didn't win another world championship or GSL event. In order to stand out as the GOAT of all SC2 from 2010-2022, I think you need to be dominant in more than just 1 year. If he was as dominant as he was at his peak in 2018-2019, in like at least 1 other year, then I think he'd have a more solid argument. For me, the list goes like this (players are ordered within tiers by commas) S: Maru/Rogue S-: Innovation/Life A+: MVP/Dark, sOs/Stats, Taeja A: Serral/MC, Classic/MMA, Zest, Polt, soO, Nestea, Rain Phantom's picks are almost reasonable even if there's no way Maru could have been the best in HoTS or pre KeSpa fall LoTV. What is not reasonable is his borderline racist idea for which essentially koreans are superior and only the super op Zerg can make foreigners win, an idea we can laugh at after a chinese won a World Championship by defeating said Maru in his best mu, Terran vs Terran... I mean, it's a fact that foreigners were completely irrelevant when Kespa were still active. While I agree that Serral (and also Reynor) are incredible talents and would've been able to win tournaments in any era, it can't be denied that it would've been way harder for them to win in the Kespa era and also that they had a slightly easier time winning tournaments than the players of the other races. That HAS to be factored in.
I think you might have missed that, out of his 19 "Premier" tournaments Serral won only that were 2 EU locked and 7 overall without korean representation.
You are also missing that he won BlizzCon(a world championship) way before Katowice(he also won 2 GSL vs the World).
Serral also never lost consistency, out of 46 Premier tounaments from 2018 to 2023 he had a result worse than ro8 only 3 times while winning more than any other player had in the history of Sc2.
As I previously said, it's fine if you don't consider Serral to be the GOAT but he is a contender and there is no way he can be placed as low as you and others do.
Considering the nature of the tournaments he plays in he's almost guaranteed to be consistent though. He mostly plays tournaments with either only foreigners or tournaments where the groupstage has 1 other weak foreigner in it. Anyway, I disagree with the list of the previous poster, given his list of accomplishments you can't really argue Serral is not a top 4 player all time at this point. Where I disagree is that he's above Maru or Rogue Serral would still be the most consistent player if we only were to consider international events(no korean ones and no region locked ones) from 2018 to 2023. KeSpa and HoTS were the nail in the coffin of foreign sc2 which was indeed irrelevant at the time and one could wonder if Serral and Reynor would have developed into the players they are now under those circumstances, had the region lock never taken place. Once completely bloomed, tho, their skill couldn't have possibly be denied, no matter how competitively crowded the scene would have been. While it's true that Serral would have probably won less against a greater number of top koreans, the question you aren't asking yourself is if Maru would have won five GSL with KeSpa still around or even worse if Rogue would have won four considering he started doing so at the end of 2019 after never going past the ro8 for years. To my eyes, Maru's claim for GOAT only has the(major) flaw of never winning a global final(let alone winning offline tournaments outside of Asia) whereas Rogue's has many more. The clutchest(and one of the most abusive) player ever, I can't deny that Rogue is undoubtly a top as far as skill and a mindgames go, especially during his best periods towards the end of 2017 and 2021 respectively. However, do you think his sparkling 7-0 record in bo7 offline finals would have been intact if Code S were as competitive as it was during the KeSPa era? Don't you think that Rogue could have taken advantage of Zerg being very strong in the last years of LoTV while surpassing his limits in Code S? Moreover, when Rogue didn't outright win(and his victories do indeed possess the highest average quality as far as prestige goes), his placements were meager when compared to Maru's or Serral's; a player with such achievements deserves to be ranked highly in a GOAT list but could never be the one, imho. Yeah, for Rogue goes the same as for Serral that he didn't win during the Kespa era and mostly when Zerg was strong, that's why he's not the Goat imo despite having the most impressive resumee. Maru probably wouldn't have won 4 GSLs in a row if the scene was still just as competitive but he's the only one out of the 3 Goat contenders who actually won tournaments when all players were practicing 24/7 in teamhouses, which is the biggest argument in his favor.
Maybe I overlooked something, but Maru won two Premier Tournaments before 2017 (a year he btw completly vanished and didn't even qualify for BlizzCon). So because he won two regional tournaments he is the Goat over people who won multiple world championships? When Rogue won WCS 2017 he nearly only beat koreans to do it, when Serral won 2018 he only crushed koreans, dropping three maps in total or something like that.
Maru is for sure the best GSL player of all time, but GOAT? To maybe make a slightly obscure comparison: THW Kiel is without a doubt the best Handball club in the german Bundesliga of all time, a League that is generally considered to be the hardest one to win. But the record champion in Europe and probably still considered best of club in the world is still FC Barcelona, even though their home league is a joke. It is all about the international titles and there Maru just falls flat, wouldn't probably even be considered Top 10.
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On February 24 2023 15:58 swarminfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2023 15:54 CicadaSC wrote:On February 24 2023 08:38 Poopi wrote:
There is not enough of a scene for GOAT conversations anymore.
It’s Rogue or Maru depending on your criterion and what happens next is not really relevant given the recent news (+ KR scene has become really small anyways with the military services etc)
uh... hello? serral? Serral in not top 3 definitely, but in top 5 or top 10. It has been discussed before.
if you don't have serral at least on 3 you are simply delusional and bias.
his price money doesn't come out of nowhere.
he went to korea once and won.
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EPT
