|
On March 01 2023 23:51 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2023 16:11 Poopi wrote:On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.
But it's Serral. Can’t even win in Europe despite a very low number of top players, could not win a single ZvZ series at the World Championship. I am not sure if people are trolling when they say Serral is the goat or if they genuinely believe it But Maru cant win anything outside of Korea, and people here actually consider him the goat ? Its pretty much a fight between Rogue and Serral, but since Rogues wins have been pretty sloppy and Serral has his number, its pretty obvious that the only right answer is ; Serral
Serral never won a GSL, didnt even compete in one, Maru has many high finishes in world finals just never claimed 1st , with your logic Maru is the GOAT .
|
On March 01 2023 16:45 tlnetuser108 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2023 21:30 Balnazza wrote:
Serral or Rogue take the cake, Maru without a WC-title is still not even close.
That being said: Just look towards other games. WC3 still has an active scene, got even a bit bigger after Reforged (the one really good thing it did actually), but even though Happy is wildly considered as the best player for years by now, you wouldn't really put him into the GOAT discussion. Moon, Sky, Grubby or Lyn for sure, but Happy? Not really.
Depending how this year goes, you could still take this year for full-value or not, but I'm sure the next years will see a transition. As a random example: If most koreans would retire and so would Serral and Reynor, which leads to Heromarine, Clem and MaxPax dominating the remaining scene for years, you still wouldn't consider either of them as a GOAT-candidate - even with Reynors impressive world championship resume so far. Hard disagree. The GSL is way more prestigious than any world championship. Preparation style tournaments are inherently more difficult and require infinitely more skill than weekenders like Katowice. This is why Reynor, despite winning less than Serral, is more of a contender for GOAT than Serral is. At least he tried. Beating GSL players outside of GSL is totally different than beating GSL players inside of GSL
Could not agree more.
Maru's GSL win's vs the caliber of competition trumps any of those other tournmanets. Also, Maru has been around the longest out of the rest of the GOAT contenders and he's been a force for 10+ years through multiple variations of the game.
Guys like Serral / Rogue are great, however they have been dominant in clearly a zerg favored meta (since legacy of the void).
|
On March 02 2023 00:39 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2023 16:11 Poopi wrote:On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.
But it's Serral. Can’t even win in Europe despite a very low number of top players, could not win a single ZvZ series at the World Championship. I am not sure if people are trolling when they say Serral is the goat or if they genuinely believe it The case for Serral is that he looked absolutely untouchable from early 2018 to early 2019, and didn't lose a series for like 11 months?, two time world champion, and overall for probably 65% of LOTV has been the scariest player. Maru is great and he's my GOAT, but failing to win a single (!!!) offline international tournament is an absolutely massive failure for any GOAT candidate. That's not something you can just ignore, and makes it almost impossible to consider him a a clear, no arguments GOAT. Then there are obvious cases for Rogue and in my opinion even Innovation as the best player when competition was the fiercest.
On the other hand Serral never won a GSL, mostly won when Zerg was the strongest race and during a relatively weak competitive era while Maru won 2 Starleagues during the Kespa era, was arguably the best proleague player and could win at times when no other terran was competitive.
I concede that there's no obvious Goat as every player has like an asterisk to their achievements but imo Maru definitely has the best case
|
On March 01 2023 14:15 TossHeroes wrote:
Serral is already the cemented general consensus GOAT
Everyone else is just battling for 2nd place
Cope
User was warned for this post
|
On March 02 2023 01:09 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2023 14:15 TossHeroes wrote:
Serral is already the cemented general consensus GOAT
Everyone else is just battling for 2nd place Cope
how is that cope?
|
Number of high stakes wins with the majority of top competition (at least 70-80% of the top 20ish) present at the time of the events are pretty much the only thing that matters and that criteria easily makes Maru the goat. Where the tournament took place doesn't matter. All that matters is that most of the top pros were present and that it was high stakes. Once you remove tournaments without high stakes and where only 50% or less of top competitors were actually there Serral's resume is very obviously no where near Maru. The vast majority of his wins are in region locked events, HSC, or stuff with only like 6 or less Koreans. Serral never won a single event that allowed open Korean participation until 2022 despite playing in a lot of them from 2018 - 2021.
Rogue is closer but still slightly below Maru. I also consider proleague to count towards this (and it's the only team league that does) as in many ways that was the highest stakes tournament of all and had all top competition present.
|
How can serral be the GOAT when he's not even the best zerg of his generation?
|
|
|
On March 02 2023 02:28 xsnac wrote:there is one simple metric that people who are under 30 will never understand. money. thats how you measure things in real life. the goat has the most money. I will let the list talk. https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii
The issue with this list though is it doesn't account for inflation. People like MVP only won ~400k, but 400k in 2014 (when he last won it), is a lot more than 400k now.
|
On March 02 2023 02:28 xsnac wrote:there is one simple metric that people who are under 30 will never understand. money. thats how you measure things in real life. the goat has the most money. I will let the list talk. https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii
If Koreans weren't excluded from all of WCS besides Blizzcon for several straight years Maru and Rogue would both have a lot more earnings. That also doesn't account for salary which definitely closes that gap at least for Maru. I'd be pretty confident Maru has made the most money on SC2 when taking into account all income. Maru's salary when he was proleague's best player was likely one of the highest in SC2.
|
On March 02 2023 01:31 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 01:09 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 01 2023 14:15 TossHeroes wrote:
Serral is already the cemented general consensus GOAT
Everyone else is just battling for 2nd place Cope how is that cope?
In what world is Serral cemented as the GOAT? I wouldn't even put him in the top 3
|
On March 02 2023 02:28 xsnac wrote:there is one simple metric that people who are under 30 will never understand. money. thats how you measure things in real life. the goat has the most money. I will let the list talk. https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii
World Championships are not nearly as prestigious as GSL. Plus Proleague salaries aren't accounted for here.
|
On March 02 2023 03:29 JJH777 wrote:If Koreans weren't excluded from all of WCS besides Blizzcon for several straight years Maru and Rogue would both have a lot more earnings. That also doesn't account for salary which definitely closes that gap at least for Maru. I'd be pretty confident Maru has made the most money on SC2 when taking into account all income. Maru's salary when he was proleague's best player was likely one of the highest in SC2.
just like the whole goat discussion.
only "if" "would" "imo" "likely" etc. and no facts
|
On March 02 2023 03:40 BelethielQT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 03:29 JJH777 wrote:On March 02 2023 02:28 xsnac wrote:there is one simple metric that people who are under 30 will never understand. money. thats how you measure things in real life. the goat has the most money. I will let the list talk. https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii If Koreans weren't excluded from all of WCS besides Blizzcon for several straight years Maru and Rogue would both have a lot more earnings. That also doesn't account for salary which definitely closes that gap at least for Maru. I'd be pretty confident Maru has made the most money on SC2 when taking into account all income. Maru's salary when he was proleague's best player was likely one of the highest in SC2. just like the whole goat discussion. only "if" "would" "imo" "likely" etc. and no facts
Money is just a dumb criteria for goat because we don't know anything about proleague salaries and because the majority of top pros were outright excluded from a ton of events simply because they were too good for the majority of SC2's life.
High stakes tournament wins with the majority of top pros present doesn't require speculation to say Maru has the best claim.
|
How do we measure GOATs without Korean SC2?
With a ruler and a scale.
|
On March 02 2023 03:42 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 03:40 BelethielQT wrote:On March 02 2023 03:29 JJH777 wrote:On March 02 2023 02:28 xsnac wrote:there is one simple metric that people who are under 30 will never understand. money. thats how you measure things in real life. the goat has the most money. I will let the list talk. https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii If Koreans weren't excluded from all of WCS besides Blizzcon for several straight years Maru and Rogue would both have a lot more earnings. That also doesn't account for salary which definitely closes that gap at least for Maru. I'd be pretty confident Maru has made the most money on SC2 when taking into account all income. Maru's salary when he was proleague's best player was likely one of the highest in SC2. just like the whole goat discussion. only "if" "would" "imo" "likely" etc. and no facts Money is just a dumb criteria for goat because we don't know anything about proleague salaries and because the majority of top pros were outright excluded from a ton of events simply because they were too good for the majority of SC2's life. High stakes tournament wins with the majority of top pros present doesn't require speculation to say Maru has the best claim.
yeah, just that Maru has not won the most money from tournaments, and at this point is futile to say anything. everything is relative until tournament money talks, and there Serral is the goat, all Koreans can only dream.
|
On March 02 2023 03:45 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 03:42 JJH777 wrote:On March 02 2023 03:40 BelethielQT wrote:On March 02 2023 03:29 JJH777 wrote:On March 02 2023 02:28 xsnac wrote:there is one simple metric that people who are under 30 will never understand. money. thats how you measure things in real life. the goat has the most money. I will let the list talk. https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii If Koreans weren't excluded from all of WCS besides Blizzcon for several straight years Maru and Rogue would both have a lot more earnings. That also doesn't account for salary which definitely closes that gap at least for Maru. I'd be pretty confident Maru has made the most money on SC2 when taking into account all income. Maru's salary when he was proleague's best player was likely one of the highest in SC2. just like the whole goat discussion. only "if" "would" "imo" "likely" etc. and no facts Money is just a dumb criteria for goat because we don't know anything about proleague salaries and because the majority of top pros were outright excluded from a ton of events simply because they were too good for the majority of SC2's life. High stakes tournament wins with the majority of top pros present doesn't require speculation to say Maru has the best claim. yeah, just that Maru has not won the most money from tournaments, and at this point is futile to say anything. everything is relative until tournament money talks, and there Serral is the goat, all Koreans can only dream.
He hasn't won the most when looking at tournaments Koreans were actually allowed to compete in though lol.
|
On March 02 2023 03:45 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2023 03:42 JJH777 wrote:On March 02 2023 03:40 BelethielQT wrote:On March 02 2023 03:29 JJH777 wrote:On March 02 2023 02:28 xsnac wrote:there is one simple metric that people who are under 30 will never understand. money. thats how you measure things in real life. the goat has the most money. I will let the list talk. https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii If Koreans weren't excluded from all of WCS besides Blizzcon for several straight years Maru and Rogue would both have a lot more earnings. That also doesn't account for salary which definitely closes that gap at least for Maru. I'd be pretty confident Maru has made the most money on SC2 when taking into account all income. Maru's salary when he was proleague's best player was likely one of the highest in SC2. just like the whole goat discussion. only "if" "would" "imo" "likely" etc. and no facts Money is just a dumb criteria for goat because we don't know anything about proleague salaries and because the majority of top pros were outright excluded from a ton of events simply because they were too good for the majority of SC2's life. High stakes tournament wins with the majority of top pros present doesn't require speculation to say Maru has the best claim. yeah, just that Maru has not won the most money from tournaments, and at this point is futile to say anything. everything is relative until tournament money talks, and there Serral is the goat, all Koreans can only dream.
Why is money made from tournaments more important than salary money? Seems weirdly specific to me.
Also funny how tournament winnings are suddenly supposed to be such a relevant criteria but back when MC was topping this list nobody thought it had much meaning regarding who the Goat is
|
Imagine trying to discredit Serral's achievements after five years of victories, certain diehards just won't let it go.
Serral without any doubt won the relative majority of tournaments where he faced the koreans after he became a championship contender; Rogue and Maru stepped it up not much before him so we could say that every korean event played after that missed the strongest player in the world. Since 2018, Serral also won two World Championships.
During Serral's period of invincibility, the other Zerg players didn't accomplish anything relevant and did not even reach a final in Korea; when Zerg became overpowered the next year, Serral definitely wasn't the one taking advantage of that and the idea that he was carried by his race is frankly embarassing.
Prize earnings alone can't tell the truth, both Katowice and BlizzCon rewarded a different amount in different years so if anything the comparison with pros of previous eras would be inaccurate; salary on the other hand is a totally arbitrary criteria.
Numbers and statistics are all in Serral's favor, win rate and head to head against koreans included(especially if you don't take into consideration online events) and there should be no doubt that he is one of the greatest players ever touching Sc2.
Never having played a Code S is what makes his GOAT call dubious, as it is Maru's lack of world championships titles or Rogue's absolute lack of consistency.
|
Canada8991 Posts
On March 02 2023 03:38 Cricketer12 wrote:World Championships are not nearly as prestigious as GSL. Plus Proleague salaries aren't accounted for here.
On what account can we say that the World championship are less prestigious?
Do they give out more money? Yes
Do they have a bigger viewership? Yes
Do they have a bigger production value? Yes
Do they have better players? Arguably, in the recent year they did for sure, in the Blizzcon days it's debatable.
Are they more rare than GSL? Yes
Appart from saying everything everything is better cause it's in Korea I don't see any reason why GSL would be "more prestigious" than a freaking world championship. Go ask Seed if he would trade place with sOs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
