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Z3nith
485 Posts
On May 20 2020 21:45 batatm wrote: Of course you're right, it just that it already is: Range: Unlimited (the target Battery must be within range 8 of any friendly Nexus) It's proxy nexus time BOYS! | ||
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Elentos
55560 Posts
On May 20 2020 21:47 Z3nith wrote: We'd have to see if any player besides PartinG can actually replicate that style as it does seem incredibly micro intensive to play. It's currently the gold standard of late game PvT play from what I've seen. It's not something PartinG came up with by himself for today. He executed at a very high level though. sOs just several community feedback updates ahead of the meta. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On May 20 2020 21:47 Z3nith wrote: We'd have to see if any player besides PartinG can actually replicate that style as it does seem incredibly micro intensive to play. It's actually pretty much the standard lategame approach for PvT nowadays. Harstem talked a bit about on a recent pylon show episode. Most Protoss don't go tempests anymore because they suck for their cost, instead they go blink DT and stalker/disruptor to chip away at the Terran while they expand heavily | ||
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Elentos
55560 Posts
On May 20 2020 21:53 Olli wrote: It's actually pretty much the standard lategame approach for PvT nowadays. Harstem talked a bit about on a recent pylon show episode. Most Protoss don't go tempests anymore because they suck for their cost, instead they go blink DT and stalker/disruptor to chip away at the Terran while they expand heavily I wish they'd do something with the tempest. It's too fragile and low DPS to really fulfill a role (the role it used to have, which was admittedly boring) in the late game. It's part of an absurdly annoying variety of cheese in PvT. Honestly all it is at this point is a 2nd voidray. | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On May 20 2020 21:53 Olli wrote: It's actually pretty much the standard lategame approach for PvT nowadays. Harstem talked a bit about on a recent pylon show episode. Most Protoss don't go tempests anymore because they suck for their cost, instead they go blink DT and stalker/disruptor to chip away at the Terran while they expand heavily Huh, interesting. Still I wouldn't have though many players would be able to play it to the standard that PartinG did against Maru, it might just be Terrans need to get used to being multipronged rather than being the ones doing the multipronging. If it isn't sorted in a couple months though then maybe look at it. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 20 2020 21:53 Olli wrote: It's actually pretty much the standard lategame approach for PvT nowadays. Harstem talked a bit about on a recent pylon show episode. Most Protoss don't go tempests anymore because they suck for their cost, instead they go blink DT and stalker/disruptor to chip away at the Terran while they expand heavily I remember Harstem talking about it, and it's a strong style no doubt. But didn't that strategy evolve because Protoss decided that was better than fighting mass Liberator head-on? Tempests being no good and all. What does Protoss have that can stop a death push from Terran? If Maru didn't lose 30 supply for free, I'd expect him to do a maxed push and probably kill Parting. | ||
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Elentos
55560 Posts
On May 20 2020 21:59 pvsnp wrote: I remember Harstem talking about it, and it's a strong style no doubt. But didn't that strategy evolve because Protoss decided that was better than fighting mass Liberator head-on? Tempests being no good and all. What does Protoss have that can stop a death push from Terran? If Maru didn't lose 30 supply for free, I'd expect him to do a maxed push and probably kill Parting. But that's the strength of the style. Scrappiness and multiprong. One of the things about Terran is that the army compositions become less mobile in defending as the game goes on. Buying time and doing chip damage - even if you can't get the insane damage PartinG got - is worth a lot. And with no ranged libs or a big tank count in sight Maru would always be hard pressed to push into disruptors (also maybe worth noting that Maru's anti-disruptor control was subpar). | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On May 20 2020 21:59 pvsnp wrote: I remember Harstem talking about it, and it's a strong style no doubt. But didn't that strategy evolve because Protoss decided that was better than fighting mass Liberator head-on? Tempests being no good and all. What does Protoss have that can stop a death push from Terran? If Maru didn't lose 30 supply for free, I'd expect him to do a maxed push and probably kill Parting. I think it's still possible to fight ranged liberators with a good amount of tempests, disruptors, storms, etc., especially if you're kiting it across the map and delaying libs from sieging up at your expansions. It's quite technical but you do have the range advantage and should be able to keep the ground army away from your tempests with good micro. I don't mind that so much on paper. It's tricky to control, but so is a lategame Terran army. The problem is that that's the only thing tempests are useful for - very slowly chipping away at things that can't shoot back. For the time/resource investment, that's just not good enough. The other upside of blink DT lategame is that it's kinda the only strong tool Protoss has to knock out lategame planetaries without committing large parts of their army. I think tempests being bad is the main issue though. On May 20 2020 21:57 Elentos wrote: I wish they'd do something with the tempest. It's too fragile and low DPS to really fulfill a role (the role it used to have, which was admittedly boring) in the late game. It's part of an absurdly annoying variety of cheese in PvT. Honestly all it is at this point is a 2nd voidray. I think the only justification for Tempests being in the game in the first place was BL/infestor. But that's so long ago, and I think most Protoss would nowadays rather get carriers anyway. The real disappointment to me is the void ray. You could actually go tempests/void ray/templar if void rays weren't so godawful at what they're supposed to do. Void rays to me should be useful for Protoss the way vikings and corruptors are for Terran - your bread and butter air unit to fight other air units and protect the more intricate, higher cost air units, like how corruptors protect BLs or were used to protect mutalisks against phoenix. But as it is they're just another glass cannon unit. I know people hate void rays, but if you made them into a better lategame unit through an additional upgrade (HP buff maybe?) I think it would really enable other Protoss air units. Super intricate balancing act of course. | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
What I don't like about this patch in short: I think it still it benefits terran the most. What doesn't make sense: - shield battery and global timer, this feels like photon overcharge 2.0. Global timer is a gimicky moba like thing. Once every minute you are allowed to defend a base vs an attack the other times you die. Just chronoboost the shieldbattery similar to normal chrono: +50% efficiency and speed. This way it's a consistent option to improve defense by a bit. - there is zero necessity for the widowmine buff, it's not fun, it's not too weak - I really don't think the queen range will help protoss, protoss main problem is the lack of dps outside of AoE, even lategame carriers and tempest are terrible now - the baneling damage nerf will still benefit terran the just as much since marauder heavy armies were never that bad and are now great. Finally as people are saying: terran does not really need help right now, while protoss is still living off of AoE and has shitty late game. There was a brilliant game of Parting vs Maru where Parting was attacking in many places.This is the kind of fun people want to see and often do see in tvz, but in pvz it's very rare... Why is that? Once Maru spread his units properly it was over and Parting went into deathball style. Because Protoss (gateway) units suck by themselves and always need AoE and synergy effects. Blizzard what's your problem? There are so many possible way to improve protoss gameplay (any of these changes coule help and could alway be balanced by AoE nerfs): - increase gateway production speed by a good amount(50%?) after warpgate upgrade, but only in gateway mode. To allow for more gateway build variation if not using warpins. - lategame stalker range upgrade (on twilight but requires robotics facility & dark shrine for example). +2 Range. stalkers are so terrible lategame that it will probably be fine. - increase carrier launch & leash range. - give tempest air only AoE, with very low damage + reduce supply to 4. A bit like the valkyrie or the corsair. To not make it useless vs armor turn it into spell damage. - give adepts the ability to activate shade at any point manually - give adepts +1 armor - make immortals & archons move faster - give archons +1 range - give archons bigger splash radius More radical ideas: - increase stalker damage in exchange for less hp + smaller frame (more vulnerable to AoE), for example -40 hp, +30% damage. - make sentry cost 25/75, remove forcefield, increase attack range +2, the beam attack slows enemies by 30+%, change guardian shield to +1 damage reduction but also for melee. - change shields to not take +damage, for example stalker shield would not take bonus damage from marauder +armored attacks. Only HP takes + armored damage. - Reduce storm dps by spreading damage over 6 seconds. Better for zoning, less punishing. - tone down disruptor AoE, an idea: 30 damage but no friendly fire. Add autocast. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2655 Posts
On May 20 2020 22:10 Olli wrote: The problem is that that's the only thing tempests are useful for - very slowly chipping away at things that can't shoot back. For the time/resource investment, that's just not good enough. . I think that its fine, that was the role they were supposed to have from the get go, a tech unit used to stop siege up of units forcing interactions, they weren't supposed to straight up 1 shot stuff from safety. I like their current iteration of fast, not very strong straight up but with good range as they exist now. If anything they could be a tad cheaper (and maybe build a bit faster), so they could be used as a way to counter act a terran that goes heavy into lib/ghost but a not unit you want to counter units like vikings or cyclones. On May 20 2020 22:10 Olli wrote: I know people hate void rays, but if you made them into a better lategame unit through an additional upgrade (HP buff maybe?) I think it would really enable other Protoss air units. Super intricate balancing act of course. I dont think you can give that role to voids in their current iteration. The fact that it attacks the same for ground and air and that it has a weird attack mode where you want them to move the least while attacking makes them hard to balance. I think the only solution would be to split its attack into AtA and AtG and then take it from there. Buffing it while its in current iteration would simply make its game interactions stupid because its a unit that its too uniform in how it functions. | ||
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MiCroLiFe
Norway275 Posts
On May 20 2020 16:23 BerserkSword wrote: While I like that they didnt take the HP off of banes, I still think even this small bane nerf is huge, especially in TvZ. Zerg is already struggling HARD to trade anywhere close to efficiently against Terran. This nerf makes it even worse as banes still do find connections on things like marauders and tanks. The way the state of the TvZ metagame is right now, even a "small" nerf like this will have significant consequences. We are talking about a gas costing unit REQUIRED for zerg to combat a mineral only marine, and this same gas unit can disappear en masse in the blink of an eye from a widow mine shot or a tank shot or something, not to mention the counter play against it is huge with splitting and hot pickups. The mine buff is significant as well. It opens up stronger hellbat timings and mech is extremely viable against zerg already. The queen nerf is actually a nerf to roach ravager, which already struggles a lot vs banshees and drop play. Things are looking grim for zerg imo Zerg struggling to trade ? This is just from my experience, and im not sayin this is true in every aspect of sc2. In most games it dont even matter actually. Because you can replenish units so fast. Out of 10 fights, you actually have to win just 1, to win the game as a zerg. Which makes the terran having to do little error in micro, which is in my opinion, much harder than to select all, a move, as the zerg usually does. The terrans have struggled whit unnecessary buffs to zerg units since hots, while gain nothing really to stop it. TVZ was fine in Hots, and terrans are basically using the same units, which in some cases ( mines) are nerfed. against buffed units like Lings, ultras. And also the creep is also easier to spread now compared to hots. I dont se any real problem whit making it a bit harder for zerg to play zvt. This may not have anything to do whit the buffs of nerf, But personally have i won alot of good players in hots ( including Serral), but in lotv i feel inferior to low masters who can make unlimited lings/banes. when they make tier 3 units, i can never compete whit the speed to make armies that can compete whit those units. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On May 21 2020 00:24 Lexender wrote: I think that its fine, that was the role they were supposed to have from the get go, a tech unit used to stop siege up of units forcing interactions, they weren't supposed to straight up 1 shot stuff from safety. I like their current iteration of fast, not very strong straight up but with good range as they exist now. If anything they could be a tad cheaper (and maybe build a bit faster), so they could be used as a way to counter act a terran that goes heavy into lib/ghost but a not unit you want to counter units like vikings or cyclones. I dont think you can give that role to voids in their current iteration. The fact that it attacks the same for ground and air and that it has a weird attack mode where you want them to move the least while attacking makes them hard to balance. I think the only solution would be to split its attack into AtA and AtG and then take it from there. Buffing it while its in current iteration would simply make its game interactions stupid because its a unit that its too uniform in how it functions. The problem with the current tempest iteration is that they're faster than before, but still not fast enough to get away from anything. So they might as well be as slow as previously if you can't properly retreat from damage either way. At least they were stronger at clearing big targets from range before. As for voids, I don't think you'd need to change much about them. They're currently terrible against most unit compositions outside of PvP, where mass void ray can very occasionally be strong. A lategame upgrade wouldn't change much of that except for niche situations where Protoss currently needs something better, and I think the speed upgrade was already intended to be a step in that direction. But that alone just makes a terrible unit that can't fight anything a bit of a faster unit that can't fight anything. It's not fast enough to harass or chase anything down like phoenixes, it can't really fight straight up against most unit compositions (hydras, infestors, thors, marines, ghosts, vipers, vikings - incorporate any of these and voids just melt). I don't see what's wrong with buffing them lategame given that these units would still fare well against them. But maybe they wouldn't completely destroy them anymore, which would be nice. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
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Miralem Ibrahim
40 Posts
I m not sure about this one. | ||
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vyzion
308 Posts
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Pentarp
224 Posts
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AirbladeOrange
United States2573 Posts
On May 20 2020 20:00 Andi_Goldberger wrote: I am not looking forward to the bullshit proxy stargate battery camp plays, dont get me wrong its not op its just really lame to play vs. buffing batteries will make more people play that strat at my garbage 4.6 level  also any nerf to the baneling is good in my book. and they shouldnt buff the WM. The shield battery needs to be in close proximity to a Nexus to be overcharged. | ||
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loppy2345
39 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On May 20 2020 16:25 pvsnp wrote: Worst comes to worst, maybe Zerg suffers in ZvT for a couple months. Sucks for them I guess, but it's nothing the other races haven't had to deal with over the past few years. Perfect balance is impossible, and Zerg has been on the good side for quite some time. They'll get over it. I think it was Rotti who said on the Pylon Show "Maybe they nerf Zerg a little too much. Is that really such a bad thing?" meh. i'd rather not have a system of "revenge" balancing lol | ||
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