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Elentos
55594 Posts
On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer
PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon.
Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4?
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On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon. Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4?
It's weird seeing a poster with +50k posts not knowing that you can buff a race without nerfing another.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On May 24 2020 18:10 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon. Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4? It's weird seeing a poster with +50k posts not knowing that you can buff a race without nerfing another.
If you can think of buffs that will bring Protoss to 50% PvZ winrates without bringing them to 55% in PvT, I'm all for that. They can always adjust stuff later if they overnerf Zerg.
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On May 24 2020 16:53 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer when i see posts like this i wonder if people just post after looking at results, or are we even watching the same group stages? if you did watch them, how did you come to this conclusion? i mean, one of the top zergs even merked himself this season. idk what else u expect lol tl;dr did u even watch gsl?
70% winrate for Terran for 30 games played that means a lot. During broodlords infestors in WOL, the winrates were just 65% for Zerg.
That's probably explained by the change of the maps that were really big and openned before. But Terrans received buffs to compensate that, and now the maps are Terran favored, and the results show Zergs were destroyed in this GSL.
You can say, ok Zergs had a bad tournaments, but the concern is Terran received again a buff, while Zerg is triple nerf (queens, creep, banelings). You can argue that's for ZvP, but again ZvP was at 39% in this GSL.
We'll see in the next tournaments, but the actual balance (from maps or patches) seem to be extremely bad from this GSL (close to gomTvT or broodlords/infestors) and may be even worst with the new changes.
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On May 24 2020 18:21 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 18:10 stilt wrote:On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon. Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4? It's weird seeing a poster with +50k posts not knowing that you can buff a race without nerfing another. If you can think of buffs that will bring Protoss to 50% PvZ winrates without bringing them to 55% in PvT, I'm all for that. They can always adjust stuff later if they overnerf Zerg.
Making forcefields require two biles to kill and biting the bullet and giving banes minus damage to shields would together do more for PvZ than this array of changes, and would literally not affect PvT or TvZ, at all.
Sure, Blizz has not been keen on minus damage modifiers, but we already have a bunch of units with special modifiers to hurt shields more.
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Rofl, it's getting ridiculous, some Zerg viewers can't stand the fact that every single premier tournament finals hasn't to be ZvZ because they are so used to now.
Rogue and soO played awfully. That's it.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On May 24 2020 18:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 18:21 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 18:10 stilt wrote:On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon. Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4? It's weird seeing a poster with +50k posts not knowing that you can buff a race without nerfing another. If you can think of buffs that will bring Protoss to 50% PvZ winrates without bringing them to 55% in PvT, I'm all for that. They can always adjust stuff later if they overnerf Zerg. Making forcefields require two biles to kill and biting the bullet and giving banes minus damage to shields would together do more for PvZ than this array of changes, and would literally not affect PvT or TvZ, at all. Sure, Blizz has not been keen on minus damage modifiers, but we already have a bunch of units with special modifiers to hurt shields more. I've thought about buffing forcefields and giving banes less damage vs shields too. Ultimately I wasn't too big of a fan of the forcefield idea though because the bile/FF interaction was added because forcefields were so oppressive in the match-up and a lot of people didn't like it (neither as viewers nor as players).
I'm not saying the changes Blizzard is making (to Protoss) are great either, but these seem to be the ones they're committed to and if that's the case there's no point to wait 2 more extra months to go through with them. And if this whole thing really becomes the true #TerranPatch that's fine too as long as Blizzard don't take forever to acknowledge it and react.
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On May 24 2020 18:21 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 18:10 stilt wrote:On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon. Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4? It's weird seeing a poster with +50k posts not knowing that you can buff a race without nerfing another. If you can think of buffs that will bring Protoss to 50% PvZ winrates without bringing them to 55% in PvT, I'm all for that. They can always adjust stuff later if they overnerf Zerg.
You know blizzard adjust one time in a year. The two Bl/infest prove it while they let zerg without late game during 2 whole gsl and wcs globals at the end of hots.
Anyway, you can tweak the shield or armor upgrad so that +2 banes don't os probes (and 2shots ht if I am not mistaken), that's a proposition by Harstem.
Bring back graviton catapult, ht with +1 feedback, the battery ability seems good.
I think it would be enough, in worst case you can revert the chargelots to his previous state (less speed but the +8 damages), this ability is the reason why roach ravagers weren't that strong back then.
And still nerf the queen range.
So yes other options exist, now, blizzard just put Z at 55% in zvt I guess. Well, I don't really care of this number, I just look at the mu from the best players since 3 months and it's quite radical in both korean and foreigner scene. (I just looked at korean vs korean and foreigner vs foreigner there isn't too much cross server)
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On May 24 2020 18:48 DieuCure wrote:
Rofl, it's getting ridiculous, some Zerg viewers can't stand the fact that every single premier tournament finals hasn't to be ZvZ because they are so used to now.
Rogue and soO played awfully. That's it.
I genuinely think people are just posting without watching the series they played.
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On May 24 2020 22:56 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 18:48 DieuCure wrote:
Rofl, it's getting ridiculous, some Zerg viewers can't stand the fact that every single premier tournament finals hasn't to be ZvZ because they are so used to now.
Rogue and soO played awfully. That's it. I genuinely think people are just posting without watching the series they played.
Sure dude, TY is not watching games either as he states the meta is currently terran favored.
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On May 24 2020 22:56 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 18:48 DieuCure wrote:
Rofl, it's getting ridiculous, some Zerg viewers can't stand the fact that every single premier tournament finals hasn't to be ZvZ because they are so used to now.
Rogue and soO played awfully. That's it. I genuinely think people are just posting without watching the series they played.
That's the feeling I get too. You cannot look at those games Solar played and go "yup, there's a balance issue here". It was the Snarf Olympics on his part. His entire BO3 against TY was under 10 minutes. Several of the other zergs just barely didn't make it through like Ragnarok, who played well and had several close games. Impact got knocked out entirely by Cure, who has been on an upward trajectory for nearly a year now and has so far put in some of his most dominant performances this season. Scarlett similarly performed quite well despite ultimately losing to Dear, who she had already won a series against.
It's not like there was some major balance issue identified. Most of the zergs who lost ended up doing so in close games that could have went either way.
If anything, it's probably this map pool, which tends to favour terran tank pushes and protoss sentry-based all-ins, that is more problematic than anything. Most games this GSL have been shorter than normal for a reason.
On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon.
This is a good summary of my views as well. Every genuine attempt Blizzard made at giving protoss something new at all in the last 2 years has been either neutered to a mediocre half-measure (the stalker changes and the tempest changes) or completely undone while various options for doing all-ins/pressures are also being taken away along with other nerfs that straight up didn't seem thought through (that feedback damage nerf is sure having a lot of repercussions they didn't seem to notice at first). Now one of the only effective ways of playing protoss against zerg is to do committed pressures or all-ins and hope to either win outright or cripple the opponent so they are far behind. Once zerg gets better at holding the latest batches of pressures and all-ins (like glaive adepts we've been seeing. They're already starting to get shut down much better than in the past) or the maps change to less favour all-ins we'll be back at square one with protoss back to not having any reliable ways of putting on pressure against zerg that can't be held by queens and a few roaches.
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you know what Sc2 needs? cash cups like fortnite if they had cash cups I feel like people would love them, instead of just random online cups they have like $100 buck and if you win you can get into something bigger like $500 and so on.
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On May 24 2020 18:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 18:21 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 18:10 stilt wrote:On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon. Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4? It's weird seeing a poster with +50k posts not knowing that you can buff a race without nerfing another. If you can think of buffs that will bring Protoss to 50% PvZ winrates without bringing them to 55% in PvT, I'm all for that. They can always adjust stuff later if they overnerf Zerg. Making forcefields require two biles to kill and biting the bullet and giving banes minus damage to shields would together do more for PvZ than this array of changes, and would literally not affect PvT or TvZ, at all. Sure, Blizz has not been keen on minus damage modifiers, but we already have a bunch of units with special modifiers to hurt shields more.
I like the idea of reduced damage vs shield. MIght be interesting to have it be -2 damage + an additional 2 damage for each shield upgrade. - would give protoss a real reason to get shield upgrades for a change. plus it would be hilarious to watch 30 banelings fail to kill a +3 shield archon 
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On May 24 2020 18:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 18:21 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 18:10 stilt wrote:On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon. Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4? It's weird seeing a poster with +50k posts not knowing that you can buff a race without nerfing another. If you can think of buffs that will bring Protoss to 50% PvZ winrates without bringing them to 55% in PvT, I'm all for that. They can always adjust stuff later if they overnerf Zerg. Making forcefields require two biles to kill and biting the bullet and giving banes minus damage to shields would together do more for PvZ than this array of changes, and would literally not affect PvT or TvZ, at all. Sure, Blizz has not been keen on minus damage modifiers, but we already have a bunch of units with special modifiers to hurt shields more.
Changing the damage does not affect TvZ like people think it does, a tactic thats already used is to kite with ONLY marines and leave marauders in the front because using banes on marauders has always been a stupid move this doesn't change that. Theres really no unit you are killing with banes that isn't light in TvZ.
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On May 25 2020 07:45 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 18:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On May 24 2020 18:21 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 18:10 stilt wrote:On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon. Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4? It's weird seeing a poster with +50k posts not knowing that you can buff a race without nerfing another. If you can think of buffs that will bring Protoss to 50% PvZ winrates without bringing them to 55% in PvT, I'm all for that. They can always adjust stuff later if they overnerf Zerg. Making forcefields require two biles to kill and biting the bullet and giving banes minus damage to shields would together do more for PvZ than this array of changes, and would literally not affect PvT or TvZ, at all. Sure, Blizz has not been keen on minus damage modifiers, but we already have a bunch of units with special modifiers to hurt shields more. Changing the damage does not affect TvZ like people think it does, a tactic thats already used is to kite with ONLY marines and leave marauders in the front because using banes on marauders has always been a stupid move this doesn't change that. Theres really no unit you are killing with banes that isn't light in TvZ.
Even if you aim for the marines with banes, a lot of them will blow up on other stuff. There is also regularly a lack of bane micro, which lead to banes running into whatever is closest.
Many a time have I seen a muta, ling, bane player defeat a bio, thor army and using banes to blow up the last thor in order to quickly swoop in with mutas without losing too many. That tactic will be worse with a lowered bane damage vs thors.
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On May 27 2020 14:37 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2020 07:45 Lexender wrote:On May 24 2020 18:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On May 24 2020 18:21 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 18:10 stilt wrote:On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon. Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4? It's weird seeing a poster with +50k posts not knowing that you can buff a race without nerfing another. If you can think of buffs that will bring Protoss to 50% PvZ winrates without bringing them to 55% in PvT, I'm all for that. They can always adjust stuff later if they overnerf Zerg. Making forcefields require two biles to kill and biting the bullet and giving banes minus damage to shields would together do more for PvZ than this array of changes, and would literally not affect PvT or TvZ, at all. Sure, Blizz has not been keen on minus damage modifiers, but we already have a bunch of units with special modifiers to hurt shields more. Changing the damage does not affect TvZ like people think it does, a tactic thats already used is to kite with ONLY marines and leave marauders in the front because using banes on marauders has always been a stupid move this doesn't change that. Theres really no unit you are killing with banes that isn't light in TvZ. Even if you aim for the marines with banes, a lot of them will blow up on other stuff. There is also regularly a lack of bane micro, which lead to banes running into whatever is closest. Many a time have I seen a muta, ling, bane player defeat a bio, thor army and using banes to blow up the last thor in order to quickly swoop in with mutas without losing too many. That tactic will be worse with a lowered bane damage vs thors.
Good. Banelings shouldn't counter everything. Watching 50 of them blow up a whole army because Zerg can afford the trade is stupid. There's no other way to convert resources into damage like that.
It's perverse how banelings being a suicide units becomes an advantage once Zerg has a huge bank.
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On May 27 2020 15:38 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2020 14:37 Drfilip wrote:On May 25 2020 07:45 Lexender wrote:On May 24 2020 18:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On May 24 2020 18:21 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 18:10 stilt wrote:On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon. Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4? It's weird seeing a poster with +50k posts not knowing that you can buff a race without nerfing another. If you can think of buffs that will bring Protoss to 50% PvZ winrates without bringing them to 55% in PvT, I'm all for that. They can always adjust stuff later if they overnerf Zerg. Making forcefields require two biles to kill and biting the bullet and giving banes minus damage to shields would together do more for PvZ than this array of changes, and would literally not affect PvT or TvZ, at all. Sure, Blizz has not been keen on minus damage modifiers, but we already have a bunch of units with special modifiers to hurt shields more. Changing the damage does not affect TvZ like people think it does, a tactic thats already used is to kite with ONLY marines and leave marauders in the front because using banes on marauders has always been a stupid move this doesn't change that. Theres really no unit you are killing with banes that isn't light in TvZ. Even if you aim for the marines with banes, a lot of them will blow up on other stuff. There is also regularly a lack of bane micro, which lead to banes running into whatever is closest. Many a time have I seen a muta, ling, bane player defeat a bio, thor army and using banes to blow up the last thor in order to quickly swoop in with mutas without losing too many. That tactic will be worse with a lowered bane damage vs thors. Good. Banelings shouldn't counter everything. Watching 50 of them blow up a whole army because Zerg can afford the trade is stupid. There's no other way to convert resources into damage like that. It's perverse how banelings being a suicide units becomes an advantage once Zerg has a huge bank.
I'd say HT's go in the same direction, you barely get more than one storm/ templar.
This can also backfire quite heavily, recent example beeing DRG ivs Zest in TSL5 I think
Nevertheless I agree. Banelings are the ultimate anti ground weapon.
I just worry Zerg beeing overnerfed, TvZ is fine. All changes together could easily sway this in Terrans favor
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On May 27 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2020 15:38 pvsnp wrote:On May 27 2020 14:37 Drfilip wrote:On May 25 2020 07:45 Lexender wrote:On May 24 2020 18:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On May 24 2020 18:21 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 18:10 stilt wrote:On May 24 2020 18:07 Elentos wrote:On May 24 2020 16:45 Harris1st wrote:Sooo does Blizz watch GSL? + Show Spoiler +Does not look like Protoss and Terran need buffs and Zerg nerfs .... Maybe they should wait a bit longer PvZ winrates in tournaments (per Aligulac) have been significantly below 50% for all but 8 months in this expansion that is almost 5 years old. In the past 2 years, Protoss have won 5 Premier events (as classified by Liquipedia), which is less than Maru alone and not at all comparable with the over 20 that Zerg won. In that time frame, even though Protoss players were repeatedly calling for help against Zerg they never received any significant buffs for that matchup that actually got to stay in the game. Last year, when there was a 4-week period where 2-base all-ins were particularly strong in PvZ, they were nerfed while Zergs were already figuring out how to defend. Meanwhile, BL/infestor was making late game PvZ unplayable for most of the year but was left untouched until after Blizzcon. Protoss hasn't gotten anything from Blizzard in the last few years. How much longer do you think they should wait just because there's one GSL without a Zerg in the top 4? It's weird seeing a poster with +50k posts not knowing that you can buff a race without nerfing another. If you can think of buffs that will bring Protoss to 50% PvZ winrates without bringing them to 55% in PvT, I'm all for that. They can always adjust stuff later if they overnerf Zerg. Making forcefields require two biles to kill and biting the bullet and giving banes minus damage to shields would together do more for PvZ than this array of changes, and would literally not affect PvT or TvZ, at all. Sure, Blizz has not been keen on minus damage modifiers, but we already have a bunch of units with special modifiers to hurt shields more. Changing the damage does not affect TvZ like people think it does, a tactic thats already used is to kite with ONLY marines and leave marauders in the front because using banes on marauders has always been a stupid move this doesn't change that. Theres really no unit you are killing with banes that isn't light in TvZ. Even if you aim for the marines with banes, a lot of them will blow up on other stuff. There is also regularly a lack of bane micro, which lead to banes running into whatever is closest. Many a time have I seen a muta, ling, bane player defeat a bio, thor army and using banes to blow up the last thor in order to quickly swoop in with mutas without losing too many. That tactic will be worse with a lowered bane damage vs thors. Good. Banelings shouldn't counter everything. Watching 50 of them blow up a whole army because Zerg can afford the trade is stupid. There's no other way to convert resources into damage like that. It's perverse how banelings being a suicide units becomes an advantage once Zerg has a huge bank. I'd say HT's go in the same direction, you barely get more than one storm/ templar. This can also backfire quite heavily, recent example beeing DRG ivs Zest in TSL5 I think Nevertheless I agree. Banelings are the ultimate anti ground weapon. I just worry Zerg beeing overnerfed, TvZ is fine. All changes together could easily sway this in Terrans favor
What? When do you ever see a P player with more than like ... 12 HT? And that's like.. 6 with army, and others at home in case of retreat/spread on map, which we dont really see anymore..
I think the point he is trying to make is that there is very few other units that it's almost better to have just MORE of, even if it outnumbers your other units. The reason is because if you get basically any trades at all, the units youre killing cost more, take longer to rebuild, cost more supply etc so it's almost always a better trade. Not to mention, if you survive X amount of time without taking damage as Z, that means your eco is generally ahead/you've established more larva/bases etc. Therefore, simply trading leads to the establishment of being able to dump into your next tech such as mutas when available etc off your eco advantage etc.
Of course, this is just the way Z works, so nothing wrong there. The problem is when your answer to pretty much everything is 1 unit... and your counter attack option is the same unit... etc. etc.
but ye
and actually, just to edit: I wouldn't even say it's a "problem", it's just a really stale meta/appealing design failure.
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What they need to do is nerf banes and queens and buff SHs, lurker, infestor, hydras in some way - basically all lairtech Z units are not good or really bad right now. Mostly lair is for upgrades and speed for your roach ling bane ravager with sometimes mutas that are also massively nerfed with free invisible WMs after patch...
Would also be fine with not even buffing above units but buffing Z harrass. Right now Z cant harrass at all (or if the do its once again baneling runbys) --> buff ovispeed for ovidrops, buff roachburrow, give infestors IT (groundattack only) back.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On May 27 2020 17:21 Decendos wrote:
What they need to do is nerf banes and queens and buff SHs, lurker, infestor, hydras in some way - basically all lairtech Z units are not good or really bad right now. Mostly lair is for upgrades and speed for your roach ling bane ravager with sometimes mutas that are also massively nerfed with free invisible WMs after patch...
Would also be fine with not even buffing above units but buffing Z harrass. Right now Z cant harrass at all (or if the do its once again baneling runbys) --> buff ovispeed for ovidrops, buff roachburrow, give infestors IT (groundattack only) back.
Buffing lurkers with insta burrow -> imagine the bnet forums. Not gonna happen(i mean on hive lurkers are insane the lower you use them(and can keep in mind burrowed units don't move with f2  ))
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/kIn11ml.png)
