Due to Maru's recent 4th GSL victory the question wether or not he is to be considered the GOAT is discussed with much passion.
Since we thought the poll wouldn't be seen by many in the "Maru defeats Classic"-thread, here is an extra topic just for this reason to settle it once and for all ... and to discuss about it until eternity no matter what this kind of irrelevant but fun poll sais.
Poll: Is Maru the GOAT?
Not sure, but he has a claim in the discussion. (455)
46%
Absolutely GOAT! (398)
40%
Absolutely not! (61)
6%
First he has to win WCS, Blizzcon, HSC, IEM and Cheesadelphia!!!1 (47)
5%
He still has to gather more trophies. (22)
2%
983 total votes
Your vote: Is Maru the GOAT?
(Vote): Absolutely GOAT! (Vote): Not sure, but he has a claim in the discussion. (Vote): He still has to gather more trophies. (Vote): Absolutely not! (Vote): First he has to win WCS, Blizzcon, HSC, IEM and Cheesadelphia!!!1
On April 17 2019 03:41 Elentos wrote: I'm pretty sure poll threads aren't tolerated on TL?
If that is so, I wasn't aware of that and then my apologies. Maybe this can be an exception because it is discussed quite thoroughly in multiple threads.
If Maru gets a couple more GSL wins soon, we might have use even another word.
I am personally not a big fan of Maru 's playstyle, but so far he delivers where it matters.
The polls seems to be not very serious, not even because of the Cheesadelphia, but because of general international tournaments. If one takes GSL seriously I doubt there is much time for shenanigans. I even count a Blizzcon win, while more prestigious, not as high as a GSL trophy. (Because Blizzcon has less players, some foreigners which are not on GSL level, and is done in a short amount of time which focuses more on quick adaptation than on preparation for a specific opponent.) A Blizzcon is in my opinion still an essential tournament in order to provide a conclusion to the year's storyline and because of that, a player with a GOAT claim of course must also win Blizzcon. At least two times in a row.
I am sure that my views on GOAT are different to many others.
On April 17 2019 04:01 [F_]aths wrote: If Maru gets a couple more GSL wins soon, we might have use even another word.
I am personally not a big fan of Maru 's playstyle, but so far he delivers where it matters.
The polls seems to be not very serious, not even because of the Cheesadelphia, but because of general international tournaments. If one takes GSL seriously I doubt there is much time for shenanigans. I even count a Blizzcon win, while more prestigious, not as high as a GSL trophy. (Because Blizzcon has less players, some foreigners which are not on GSL level, and is done in a short amount of time which focuses more on quick adaptation than on preparation for a specific opponent.) A Blizzcon is in my opinion still an essential tournament in order to provide a conclusion to the year's storyline and because of that, a player with a GOAT claim of course must also win Blizzcon. At least two times in a row.
I am sure that my views on GOAT are different to many others.
Well, it is serious apart from the cheesadelphia option. There are quite some voices stating that Maru's lack of success in "weekenders" kind of diminished his legacy. And one can argue that there is a point in that because if someone wins the hardest tournaments why can't win the easier ones? Also that a preparation based tournament takes more skill than a shorttime-event is just a subjective opinion and was widely discussed in the Taeja-era already.
But I share your view that in terms of skill of the participating players there is barely anything as tough as GSL. IEM and Super Tournaments are the only real contenders here (and before region lock also Blizzcon). But if you compare the path of the winner of each tournament then there barely is a difference in difficulty between GSL and Blizzcon or GSL vs the World.
That a GOAT would need a Blizzcon win (not to speak of two in a row) is unheard of. GOAT is to be defined relative to the achievements of other players and thus there is no abolutely defined hurdle which has to be taken to be called GOAT.
Maru is surely the best GSL player, and GSL is the strongest tournament we have, but even so I'd like to see him perform well outside of his prefered niche before calling him the greatest of all time. It's such a glaring weakness for someone aiming for that title.
i have linked maru's liquipedia but he has had multiple top 4 finishes in weekender tourneys. how is that not good, when combined with his dominance in GSL? a lesser tier korean like losira (sorry losira am a fan for your dedication though!) would LOVE to have that kind of success outside
edit: also taeja is a legend, and he carried liquid in their team leagues and absolutely killed it in weekenders. as an aside, liquid hero also had success in weekenders but not so much in GSL. but if you had to pick, i'd pick maru cause of GSL over taeja
Maru is definitely the GOAT. Sure he doesn't have quite as many premiers as Mvp/Inno/Life but the quality of his premiers are much higher and he will be winning a few more this year anyways. Plus his proleague performance is worth at least 1 premier itself. All his top 4s and top 8s have to be taken into account as well. There are so many seasons of GSL where Maru was the last Terran standing.
I also feel like his 2018 is almost underrated because of all the Serral hype. His 2018 is unheard of. Yeah he got embarrassed by sOs at blizzcon but the fact is every top player gets eliminated early at least once during their periods of dominance. Mvp outright missed a GSL during 2011 which is considered his best year. Innos best year is probably 2013 and in season 3 of GSL that year he went out in the top 16. Life had tons of early eliminations in tournaments even at his peaks. Everyone is inconsistent in SC2.
So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Not yet - his best year thus far (2018) was overshadowed by Serral. If he can keep up this form through the end of year, and Serral doesn't keep on winning everything, then he has a shot. So far, it's looking good with him grabbing his 4th straight GSL while Serral lost WCS to Reynor.
Otherwise, Maru risks being overshadowed during his own peak era (e.g., Jaedong to Flash)
On April 17 2019 04:34 Bagration wrote: Not yet - his best year thus far (2018) was overshadowed by Serral. If he can keep up this form through the end of year, and Serral doesn't keep on winning everything, then he has a shot. So far, it's looking good with him grabbing his 4th straight GSL while Serral lost WCS to Reynor.
Otherwise, Maru risks being overshadowed during his own peak era (e.g., Jaedong to Flash)
On April 17 2019 04:23 fishjie wrote: i have linked maru's liquipedia but he has had multiple top 4 finishes in weekender tourneys. how is that not good, when combined with his dominance in GSL? a lesser tier korean like losira (sorry losira am a fan for your dedication though!) would LOVE to have that kind of success outside
It's good, but the question isn't whether Maru is good, it's whether he's the greatest of all time. Losira isn't greatest of all time.
On April 17 2019 04:23 fishjie wrote:edit: also taeja is a legend, and he carried liquid in their team leagues and absolutely killed it in weekenders. as an aside, liquid hero also had success in weekenders but not so much in GSL. but if you had to pick, i'd pick maru cause of GSL over taeja
On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous.
Well, Maru is one of the few who rarely traveled to tournaments abroad and back then most of those tournaments had to be considered inferior to GSL by far. Also in 2013-15 Maru won two Starleagues of GSL calibre, gathered 6 top 4 and additional 6 top 8 finishes in premier events (GSLs and similar calibre) and placed 2nd in the stacked IEM Taipei (losing to Life in a nailbiting close final). And after his aquisition by JAGW he went on to be the top Proleague player for 3 seasons straight. He was one of the most dominant, feared and successful forces and probably the most consistent player of that time.
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
Funny enough, I'm still not sure if I can call Maru GOAT because other players have achieved great things, too.
On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous.
Most weekenders are outside of Korea so I think that is something to consider. Not that Maru shouldn't still have a few wins over his career in these tournaments but it is well known that Koreans don't like traveling in general and have a hard time with western food.
I think winning 4 GSLs in a row is absolutely the greatest accomplishment in SC2. The best players compete in GSL and the tournament is played over time so theoretically every player can bring their A game to each match. Being the best of the best while playing at the highest level (which again I think the preparation gives players an opportunity to play and come up with strats that are superior to what we see in weekenders) has to be weighed very heavily.
On April 17 2019 04:34 Bagration wrote: Not yet - his best year thus far (2018) was overshadowed by Serral. If he can keep up this form through the end of year, and Serral doesn't keep on winning everything, then he has a shot. So far, it's looking good with him grabbing his 4th straight GSL while Serral lost WCS to Reynor.
Otherwise, Maru risks being overshadowed during his own peak era (e.g., Jaedong to Flash)
How was he overshadowed by Serral? Maru won 3 top tourneys (4 if we want to count WESG where he actually totally crushed Serral) and Serral won 2. Serral looked more dominating overall but in terms of achievements Maru clearly had a better year.
Wow, I have my lawyers on the line for copywrite enfridgment.
Jk, I don't care. As for Maru beeing the GOAT, I think he still misses a few weekender to be the clear GOAT. While it's very true that he had a lot less opportunity to play in weekender than most he still played a good number of them, and has so far failled to have a amazing string of results in them He has played in 26 weekender in his careers, with "only" 3 finals and a single win.
His only win came from WESG and on of his finals wich while very hard to qualify for in Korea, basicly have the lineup of a HSC, with essentially 1 or 2 matches with elite players.(altought his 2018 run was done in very impressive fashon remenissing of a TaeJa) His best result outside of his WESG win, is probably his IEM Tapei final, but he did failled to win it in the end.
His overall results in weekender are far from bad of course, but there still seems to be something missing from his legacy. Outside of GSL, he dosen't seems to have these day where everything goes right and he can just cleave throught a bracket the way other great weekender player like TaeJa, INno or Zest.
On April 17 2019 04:18 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Maru is surely the best GSL player, and GSL is the strongest tournament we have, but even so I'd like to see him perform well outside of his prefered niche before calling him the greatest of all time. It's such a glaring weakness for someone aiming for that title.
Lol "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
Not sure, but he has a claim in the discussion. (4)
9%
First he has to win WCS, Blizzcon, HSC, IEM and Cheesadelphia!!!1 (1)
2%
He still has to gather more trophies. (0)
0%
45 total votes
Your vote: Is Maru a Bonjwa?
(Vote): Absolutely bonjwa! (Vote): Not sure, but he has a claim in the discussion. (Vote): Absolutely not! (Vote): First he has to win WCS, Blizzcon, HSC, IEM and Cheesadelphia!!!1 (Vote): He still has to gather more trophies.
If metrics didn’t shift all the time it would be nice, gets confusing.
It was a shame for us viewers that Proleague ended, also for Maru in a sense, as he was a monster in that too. His weekend results are still good for basically any top tier player really, consistency wise if not title wise. if he kept up his Proleague form, showed his current GSL form I don’t think he’d even need those weekenders at all.
Current paucity of not just tournaments but big sample sizes of form are a double-edged sword, they can really amplify a hot streak, but also any kind of slump as well.
$o$ had those sick really clutch big tournament wins, kind of added to his charm that he wasn’t some dominant player overall, but we had enough other results to actually judge that on.
IMO to be a basically undisputed GOAT you need a crazy level of dominance, best you can hope for without is to be part of that conversation. So a Wayne Gretsky, a Don Bradman in cricket or Jahangir Khan in squash or folks like that.
On April 17 2019 04:18 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Maru is surely the best GSL player, and GSL is the strongest tournament we have, but even so I'd like to see him perform well outside of his prefered niche before calling him the greatest of all time. It's such a glaring weakness for someone aiming for that title.
Well, besides his 4 consecutive GSL wins he also has a SSL and a WCS Korea title, both of which - outside of the name - are effectively the same as a GSL (prize pool, competition). On top of that he also won WESG once, which may be a comparetively weak tournament, but still required him to go through the gruelling Korea qualifier. As a cherry on top, he is also the highest earning sc2 player ever, so it is not like he only has those 4 consecutive GSL titles.
On April 17 2019 04:18 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Maru is surely the best GSL player, and GSL is the strongest tournament we have, but even so I'd like to see him perform well outside of his prefered niche before calling him the greatest of all time. It's such a glaring weakness for someone aiming for that title.
Well, besides his 4 consecutive GSL wins he also has a SSL and a WCS Korea title, both of which - outside of the name - are effectively the same as a GSL (prize pool, competition). On top of that he also won WESG once, which may be a comparetively weak tournament, but still required him to go through the gruelling Korea qualifier. As a cherry on top, he is also the highest earning sc2 player ever, so it is not like he only has those 4 consecutive GSL titles,
That’s a good shout on WESG, indeed just being one of the Korean qualifiers at most big LANs is in itself probably an underrated achievement, that often goes overlooked.
Especially as qualifiers are rarely ones where much prep is possible.
On April 17 2019 04:18 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Maru is surely the best GSL player, and GSL is the strongest tournament we have, but even so I'd like to see him perform well outside of his prefered niche before calling him the greatest of all time. It's such a glaring weakness for someone aiming for that title.
Well, besides his 4 consecutive GSL wins he also has a SSL and a WCS Korea title, both of which - outside of the name - are effectively the same as a GSL (prize pool, competition). On top of that he also won WESG once, which may be a comparetively weak tournament, but still required him to go through the gruelling Korea qualifier. As a cherry on top, he is also the highest earning sc2 player ever, so it is not like he only has those 4 consecutive GSL titles.
p.s. And apparently he also has an OSL win...
OSL and WCS Korea were the same tournament. (dunno if it was ironic)
For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
i mean maybe, but would he still be the GOAT if he wasn't on a Kespa team, without the Kespa training regimen?
It's a bit of an unfair comparison to pros who are doing this all by themselves. Inno for example, cited his reason for leaving Acer and rejoining SKT1 as because he did not perform as well without the rigor and guidance of a Kespa team. He found himself getting lazy.
On April 17 2019 12:20 CicadaSC wrote: i mean maybe, but would he still be the GOAT if he wasn't on a Kespa team, without the Kespa training regimen?
It's a bit of an unfair comparison to pros who are doing this all by themselves. Inno for example, cited his reason for leaving Acer and rejoining SKT1 as because he did not perform as well without the rigor and guidance of a Kespa team. He found himself getting lazy.
Or, asking the real question... if Maru was born with one hand.. will he be bonjwa? Its a bit of unfair the comparision between one handed players that need to choose between mouse or keyboard and players with two hands who can comfortably pick both.
On April 17 2019 04:34 Bagration wrote: Not yet - his best year thus far (2018) was overshadowed by Serral. If he can keep up this form through the end of year, and Serral doesn't keep on winning everything, then he has a shot. So far, it's looking good with him grabbing his 4th straight GSL while Serral lost WCS to Reynor.
Otherwise, Maru risks being overshadowed during his own peak era (e.g., Jaedong to Flash)
How was he overshadowed by Serral? Maru won 3 top tourneys (4 if we want to count WESG where he actually totally crushed Serral) and Serral won 2. Serral looked more dominating overall but in terms of achievements Maru clearly had a better year.
Serral looked better than Maru did last year. Serral not only looked great, but he had a real clutch factor that Maru definitely never had. Serral won no matter what; in dominant series, in ace matches, and in extremely high pressure situations. Maru usually straight crumbled if he didn't win. Heck, I'd still rate Serral's start to 2019 better than Maru's because Serral has only lost in ace matches to the winner of his three events this year. It seems the only thing that changed is Serral doesn't quite have the same insane clutch factor he had last year.
In contrast, Maru won another GSL, but utterly crumbled at Katowice and again failed at WESG when things actually got tough. Maru doesn't seem to adapt well to new environments. He's almost like a ladder hero - amazing at home in his comfort zone, but doesn't do nearly as well when he's someplace he's not used to.
Another thing to discuss: What really determines the skill of a pro? Is it purely how they do in preparation events? Is it how they play in weekenders? Is it how they adapt when things aren't perfect? Mvp is still considered one of the GOATs because in a meta incredibly against Terrans, and with a terrible injury, he still managed to win. He used his intellect and hit perfect timings and played godly mind-games to emphasize the advantages he had. Is that any worse than someone who wins only when he's comfortable, but is a god when he is?
On April 17 2019 12:20 CicadaSC wrote: i mean maybe, but would he still be the GOAT if he wasn't on a Kespa team, without the Kespa training regimen?
It's a bit of an unfair comparison to pros who are doing this all by themselves. Inno for example, cited his reason for leaving Acer and rejoining SKT1 as because he did not perform as well without the rigor and guidance of a Kespa team. He found himself getting lazy.
Or, asking the real question... if Maru was born with one hand.. will he be bonjwa? Its a bit of unfair the comparision between one handed players that need to choose between mouse or keyboard and players with two hands who can comfortably pick both.
It's not really an unfair comparison. It's the same as Koreans being better than Foreigners. We kinda showed with the collapse of Kespa and Region Lock that the teamhouses were the main thing that made Koreans so godly. Couldn't Maru be the same way? He's still incredibly good, but there's few with the same resources to challenge him.
On April 17 2019 04:34 Bagration wrote: Not yet - his best year thus far (2018) was overshadowed by Serral. If he can keep up this form through the end of year, and Serral doesn't keep on winning everything, then he has a shot. So far, it's looking good with him grabbing his 4th straight GSL while Serral lost WCS to Reynor.
Otherwise, Maru risks being overshadowed during his own peak era (e.g., Jaedong to Flash)
How was he overshadowed by Serral? Maru won 3 top tourneys (4 if we want to count WESG where he actually totally crushed Serral) and Serral won 2. Serral looked more dominating overall but in terms of achievements Maru clearly had a better year.
Serral looked better than Maru did last year. Serral not only looked great, but he had a real clutch factor that Maru definitely never had. Serral won no matter what; in dominant series, in ace matches, and in extremely high pressure situations. Maru usually straight crumbled if he didn't win. Heck, I'd still rate Serral's start to 2019 better than Maru's because Serral has only lost in ace matches to the winner of his three events this year. It seems the only thing that changed is Serral doesn't quite have the same insane clutch factor he had last year.
In contrast, Maru won another GSL, but utterly crumbled at Katowice and again failed at WESG when things actually got tough. Maru doesn't seem to adapt well to new environments. He's almost like a ladder hero - amazing at home in his comfort zone, but doesn't do nearly as well when he's someplace he's not used to.
Another thing to discuss: What really determines the skill of a pro? Is it purely how they do in preparation events? Is it how they play in weekenders? Is it how they adapt when things aren't perfect? Mvp is still considered one of the GOATs because in a meta incredibly against Terrans, and with a terrible injury, he still managed to win. He used his intellect and hit perfect timings and played godly mind-games to emphasize the advantages he had. Is that any worse than someone who wins only when he's comfortable, but is a god when he is?
Did you like at least watch the Maru final games? Most impartantly - TY v Maru? Because that directly disproves what you've written about him.
You mean that IEM where all the Terrans failed or the IEM where Serral go to RO8? I would love to introduce you to Maru's 2k18 where he didn't finish lower than RO8 and in half cases lost to his team mates. failure of WESG where he lost to the victor and got 3rd place. The same excuse you use for Serral 2k19? Who lost to soO(RO16 Code S) and Innovation(RO16 Code S) where Maru won the Code S? (and by the great Korean tradition now loses in the RO16 as soO and Innovation did )
Maru is considered by many GOAT because the current meta is against the Terrans!
WHy the IEM has highest placed Terran in RO8? Why the GSL ST has 2 Terrans(one of whom is an invite) out of 16 players? Why is the map pool PvT favored? I don't know, you tell me. There's a reason why people say that Maru shines in Terran unfavored meta(e.g. the ZPCraft)
Edit> Automaton - 56.6 Cyberforest - 63.4 Kings Cove - 47.2 Kairos Junction - 51.7 New repugancy - 45.6 Port Alexander - 53.6 Year Zero - 58.1 Source: Liquipedia
The problem is that the GSL tests a certain set of skills that are weighted differently to weekenders. Preparation is a skill in itself. With that in mind, he's surely the GOAT at GSL SC2, but clearly he isn't when it comes to weekenders, and that is still a part of the game. He needs to improve at that, so he's not the GOAT imo, just a potential GOAT.
There's something missing from his game that he needs. Maybe its stamina and concentration over a long peroid of time (speculating) or some other quality that is only important for those weekend tournaments.
Maru is off to a good start, but not there yet. We'll see what 2019 brings us
Few discussion points: GSL is not the hardest tournament anymore from a purely playerbase perspective. International tournaments now have the better playerbase. True it still is something like 75% korea and 25% foreigner, but those 25% matter. That's why I would like to see him win IEM or Blizzcon.
Also you can't use the argument Serral needs to play GSL to be the best and then in the next sentence defend Maru for not playing/ winning weekenders cause he doesn't like to travel. Makes no sense
On April 17 2019 16:51 Harris1st wrote: Maru is off to a good start, but not there yet. We'll see what 2019 brings us
Few discussion points: GSL is not the hardest tournament anymore from a purely playerbase perspective. International tournaments now have the better playerbase. True it still is something like 75% korea and 25% foreigner, but those 25% matter. That's why I would like to see him win IEM or Blizzcon.
Also you can't use the argument Serral needs to play GSL to be the best and then in the next sentence defend Maru for not playing/ winning weekenders cause he doesn't like to travel. Makes no sense
Well, no. The only tournament for which this is true was IEM this year. Every GSL Ro16 is harder playerwise than Blizzcon and GSL vs the World. This can easily be seen when you look at IEM where only 2 out of Top12 where Foreigners. Serral was the big exception last year while apart from him we barely had foreigner in RO8 at international events (and it is questionable if we would have had the same amount of foreigner in Ro8 if the player pool weren't restricted to 8 players).
Also you can't use the argument Serral needs to play GSL to be the best and then in the next sentence defend Maru for not playing/ winning weekenders cause he doesn't like to travel. Makes no sense
Nobody is saying that, he is not excused because he doesntl ike to travel. But if you have to pinpoint a reason why he porforms Ro4 or Ro8 instead of winning there, people can go with that hipothesis, but that being the reason it doesnt mean excuse
On April 17 2019 12:20 CicadaSC wrote: i mean maybe, but would he still be the GOAT if he wasn't on a Kespa team, without the Kespa training regimen?
It's a bit of an unfair comparison to pros who are doing this all by themselves. Inno for example, cited his reason for leaving Acer and rejoining SKT1 as because he did not perform as well without the rigor and guidance of a Kespa team. He found himself getting lazy.
Or, asking the real question... if Maru was born with one hand.. will he be bonjwa? Its a bit of unfair the comparision between one handed players that need to choose between mouse or keyboard and players with two hands who can comfortably pick both.
It's not really an unfair comparison. It's the same as Koreans being better than Foreigners. We kinda showed with the collapse of Kespa and Region Lock that the teamhouses were the main thing that made Koreans so godly. Couldn't Maru be the same way? He's still incredibly good, but there's few with the same resources to challenge him.
It is an unfair and totally irrelevant comparison, I could go on and talk about how different players excel in different environments, look at Byun, he got better after leaving a team.
The most important factor here though is that if one player is dominating every single tournament (I'm not talking Maru here, just imagine a player doing what Maru did but more dominantly). Would you then say: "He isn't really the greatest ever because his dad is Flash and he grew up in a rts housefold" / "He isn't really the greatest ever because he is korean and started the game so young, he just had the best preconditions" / "He isn't the best ever because he is rich and is paying off lots of top players to play with him and have bought the best training equipment there is along with a personal coach" / "He is part of a teamhouse and a teamhouse is such a distinct advantage he should be banned from tournmanets for having too good resources compared to other players"
I mean, its just ridiculous, his resources, his friends and training partners, you aren't less great because you have those. I'll agree that it makes everything cooler with stories like Byun and MVP but MVP would have been goat all these years even if he wouldn't have been injured and even though he was injured he still isn't goat right now because thats not what goat is about.
Greatest of all time is not = The player that had the shittiest conditions that did the best, its simply the greatest player of the game.
On April 17 2019 16:51 Harris1st wrote: Maru is off to a good start, but not there yet. We'll see what 2019 brings us
Few discussion points: GSL is not the hardest tournament anymore from a purely playerbase perspective. International tournaments now have the better playerbase. True it still is something like 75% korea and 25% foreigner, but those 25% matter. That's why I would like to see him win IEM or Blizzcon.
Also you can't use the argument Serral needs to play GSL to be the best and then in the next sentence defend Maru for not playing/ winning weekenders cause he doesn't like to travel. Makes no sense
Well, no. The only tournament for which this is true was IEM this year. Every GSL Ro16 is harder playerwise than Blizzcon and GSL vs the World. This can easily be seen when you look at IEM where only 2 out of Top12 where Foreigners. Serral was the big exception last year while apart from him we barely had foreigner in RO8 at international events (and it is questionable if we would have had the same amount of foreigner in Ro8 if the player pool weren't restricted to 8 players).
It's pretty much 2/8 in every Ro8 in every international tournament the last 2 years. Also you can't say "no" and then go on and agree with me. That's not how discussions work ^^
Also you can't use the argument Serral needs to play GSL to be the best and then in the next sentence defend Maru for not playing/ winning weekenders cause he doesn't like to travel. Makes no sense
Nobody is saying that, he is not excused because he doesntl ike to travel. But if you have to pinpoint a reason why he porforms Ro4 or Ro8 instead of winning there, people can go with that hipothesis, but that being the reason it doesnt mean excuse
I will hold you to that! Travel is NOT an excuse anymore
On April 17 2019 16:51 Harris1st wrote: Maru is off to a good start, but not there yet. We'll see what 2019 brings us
Few discussion points: GSL is not the hardest tournament anymore from a purely playerbase perspective. International tournaments now have the better playerbase. True it still is something like 75% korea and 25% foreigner, but those 25% matter. That's why I would like to see him win IEM or Blizzcon.
"International tournaments" so you mean Katowice? Even blizzcon only had like 10 elite players at the most. GSL vs The World was even less.
And are you forgetting that players like Scarlett, Neeb, SpeCial, Lambo, Reynor etc have all competed in GSL? Yet none of them have done well except Scarlett making ro8 once.
GSL has had every elite player except Serral compete there, it's superior to every international event except Katowice in that regard (even katowice usually has a few players missing so maybe not even that).
I'd also say to go look at Maru's record vs international players. He has the best record of probably any sc2 player against them. He has both a trophy and 2nd place at WeSG, where he basically did nothing but 3-0/2-0 all the best foreigners.
On April 17 2019 16:51 Harris1st wrote: Maru is off to a good start, but not there yet. We'll see what 2019 brings us
Few discussion points: GSL is not the hardest tournament anymore from a purely playerbase perspective. International tournaments now have the better playerbase. True it still is something like 75% korea and 25% foreigner, but those 25% matter. That's why I would like to see him win IEM or Blizzcon.
"International tournaments" so you mean Katowice? Even blizzcon only had like 10 elite players at the most. GSL vs The World was even less.
And are you forgetting that players like Scarlett, Neeb, SpeCial, Lambo, Reynor etc have all competed in GSL? Yet none of them have done well except Scarlett making ro8 once.
GSL has had every elite player except Serral compete there, it's superior to every international event except Katowice in that regard (even katowice usually has a few players missing so maybe not even that).
I'd also say to go look at Maru's record vs international players. He has the best record of probably any sc2 player against them. He has both a trophy and 2nd place at WeSG, where he basically did nothing but 3-0/2-0 all the best foreigners.
Erm Neeb made top 4 season 3 last year, while I do agree GSL is the pinnacle and harder than any other tournament Neeb has really distuished himself there.
On April 17 2019 16:51 Harris1st wrote: Maru is off to a good start, but not there yet. We'll see what 2019 brings us
Few discussion points: GSL is not the hardest tournament anymore from a purely playerbase perspective. International tournaments now have the better playerbase. True it still is something like 75% korea and 25% foreigner, but those 25% matter. That's why I would like to see him win IEM or Blizzcon.
"International tournaments" so you mean Katowice? Even blizzcon only had like 10 elite players at the most. GSL vs The World was even less.
And are you forgetting that players like Scarlett, Neeb, SpeCial, Lambo, Reynor etc have all competed in GSL? Yet none of them have done well except Scarlett making ro8 once.
GSL has had every elite player except Serral compete there, it's superior to every international event except Katowice in that regard (even katowice usually has a few players missing so maybe not even that).
I'd also say to go look at Maru's record vs international players. He has the best record of probably any sc2 player against them. He has both a trophy and 2nd place at WeSG, where he basically did nothing but 3-0/2-0 all the best foreigners.
Its not just about the quality of player though, there's a different set of physical and mental tests at a weekend tournament than at a GSL.
On April 17 2019 17:40 Shuffleblade wrote: Greatest of all time is not = The player that had the shittiest conditions that did the best, its simply the greatest player of the game.
Conditions can still be a factor. For example Maru doing so well in 2013/2014 when terran was absolute shit, in imo greater than some players who won more but when their race was imba.
Hell Maru's streak from back then should be a factor in the GOAT discussion but no one mentions it. He made playoffs in four seasons in a row (1st, ro4, ro8, ro4) despite how every other terran crashed and burned. Had balance been decent at the time he probably wins both those ro4s.
It's also a mark against players like INno in these discussions. For the longest time he only won when terran was the best race.
On April 17 2019 16:51 Harris1st wrote: Maru is off to a good start, but not there yet. We'll see what 2019 brings us
Few discussion points: GSL is not the hardest tournament anymore from a purely playerbase perspective. International tournaments now have the better playerbase. True it still is something like 75% korea and 25% foreigner, but those 25% matter. That's why I would like to see him win IEM or Blizzcon.
"International tournaments" so you mean Katowice? Even blizzcon only had like 10 elite players at the most. GSL vs The World was even less.
And are you forgetting that players like Scarlett, Neeb, SpeCial, Lambo, Reynor etc have all competed in GSL? Yet none of them have done well except Scarlett making ro8 once.
GSL has had every elite player except Serral compete there, it's superior to every international event except Katowice in that regard (even katowice usually has a few players missing so maybe not even that).
I'd also say to go look at Maru's record vs international players. He has the best record of probably any sc2 player against them. He has both a trophy and 2nd place at WeSG, where he basically did nothing but 3-0/2-0 all the best foreigners.
Erm Neeb made top 4 season 3 last year, while I do agree GSL is the pinnacle and harder than any other tournament Neeb has really distuished himself there.
True I forgot about that. Neeb was imo the best foreigner at the time (better than Serral) and was probably a top 3 protoss in the world, maybe top 1/2 in PvZ. The fact he competed in GSL that season if anything adds to Maru's victory. Reynor and SpeCial were there as well. Literally all the best foreigners except Serral.
On April 17 2019 16:51 Harris1st wrote: Maru is off to a good start, but not there yet. We'll see what 2019 brings us
Few discussion points: GSL is not the hardest tournament anymore from a purely playerbase perspective. International tournaments now have the better playerbase. True it still is something like 75% korea and 25% foreigner, but those 25% matter. That's why I would like to see him win IEM or Blizzcon.
Also you can't use the argument Serral needs to play GSL to be the best and then in the next sentence defend Maru for not playing/ winning weekenders cause he doesn't like to travel. Makes no sense
Well, no. The only tournament for which this is true was IEM this year. Every GSL Ro16 is harder playerwise than Blizzcon and GSL vs the World. This can easily be seen when you look at IEM where only 2 out of Top12 where Foreigners. Serral was the big exception last year while apart from him we barely had foreigner in RO8 at international events (and it is questionable if we would have had the same amount of foreigner in Ro8 if the player pool weren't restricted to 8 players).
It's pretty much 2/8 in every Ro8 in every international tournament the last 2 years. Also you can't say "no" and then go on and agree with me. That's not how discussions work ^^
You're mostly talking about tournaments in which 8 foreigners were guaranteed in Ro16. 2 foreigners in Ro8 wouldn't have happenend if this would've been tournaments with open qualifiers. In last year's IEM we only had 3 foreigners even making it into the Ro16 with Serral being the only one making it to the playoffs (quite successfully so). In GSL vs the World 2 of 3 foreigners who made it into the Ro8 did so on the back of beating relatively weak foreigners in Has and Kelazhur. At Blizzcon Special had to beat Nerchio in order to not get eliminated in the loser's match of the group stage before advancing to Ro8 after the decider's match (which was played greatly by him). I stand by my point: if you'd made open qualifiers you only would have 3 or 4 foreigners in the Ro16 and only one in RO8 most of the time (from there onwards anything is possible because Ro8 players in such tournaments are always theroretically capable of winning it all). This is why GSL still is harder playerwise than most international events with IEM being the only exception.
On April 17 2019 18:17 Fango wrote: GSL has had every elite player except Serral compete there, it's superior to every international event except Katowice in that regard (even katowice usually has a few players missing so maybe not even that).
Exactly my point. When all elite player (including Serral) play GSL regularly, then GSL will continue to be the hardest tournament to win. Until then, it's simply not
On April 17 2019 18:17 Fango wrote: GSL has had every elite player except Serral compete there, it's superior to every international event except Katowice in that regard (even katowice usually has a few players missing so maybe not even that).
Exactly my point. When all elite player (including Serral) play GSL regularly, then GSL will continue to be the hardest tournament to win. Until then, it's simply not
Are you saying WCS is the hardest tournament because Serral is there? You funny man
Edit: So tell me then, which tournament is the hardest, because it sure as hell isnt IEM, Katawice, WESG or Blizzcon for all the reasons several posters have already outlined.
On April 17 2019 18:17 Fango wrote: GSL has had every elite player except Serral compete there, it's superior to every international event except Katowice in that regard (even katowice usually has a few players missing so maybe not even that).
Exactly my point. When all elite player (including Serral) play GSL regularly, then GSL will continue to be the hardest tournament to win. Until then, it's simply not
Are you saying WCS is the hardest tournament because Serral is there? You funny man
No I was not. No idea why would read that into my statement. That's pure trolling
EDIT: @fronkschnonk These are some fair points. I can accept these. AFAIK everyone can qualify for IEM, making it the hardest tournament playerbase
this is a horrible poll. 4 options say "no" and 1 option says "ABSOLUTELY".
Like, he's clearly the greatest because even players like inno and mvp were dominant in a time of everyone being worse at the game, and also a lesser iteration of the game in WoL and HotS.
As of right now, it's Maru. He is the most skilled player we've ever had, even if he trips at foreign tournaments at the moment. Honestly just don't think he prepares at all for those.
On April 17 2019 20:38 RogerChillingworth wrote: this is a horrible poll. 4 options say "no" and 1 option says "ABSOLUTELY".
Like, he's clearly the greatest because even players like inno and mvp were dominant in a time of everyone being worse at the game, and also a lesser iteration of the game in WoL and HotS.
As of right now, it's Maru. He is the most skilled player we've ever had, even if he trips at foreign tournaments at the moment. Honestly just don't think he prepares at all for those.
Well, that's not correct. 2 options say "no", 1 sais "perhaps", 1 sais "yes", 1 is obviously a fun option.
On April 17 2019 18:43 Harris1st wrote: @fronkschnonk These are some fair points. I can accept these. AFAIK everyone can qualify for IEM, making it the hardest tournament playerbase
Yes, as I said, IEM is the one exception. But the difference is a very minor one, considering that only very few foreigners actually make it into Ro16 of IEM (around 2-4 foreigners) and that some great foreigners are normally also trying to qualify for GSL (for season 2 this year we have special and scarlett in there).
On April 17 2019 20:38 RogerChillingworth wrote: this is a horrible poll. 4 options say "no" and 1 option says "ABSOLUTELY".
Like, he's clearly the greatest because even players like inno and mvp were dominant in a time of everyone being worse at the game, and also a lesser iteration of the game in WoL and HotS.
As of right now, it's Maru. He is the most skilled player we've ever had, even if he trips at foreign tournaments at the moment. Honestly just don't think he prepares at all for those.
I agree, though I tend to not take it too seriously.
As for your argument. I think Maru is G, but he is not really OAT. His skill level might be the highest ever (as in if he were to 1v1 past champions), but that doesn't necessarily make him the greatest in my opinion. Different times, different challenges.
I think if he can win 1 more tournament, of pretty much any level internationally, or another GSL if that comes first, then he'd probably just statistically be a person you couldn't deny that title anymore. He's really been doing some amazing stuff o:
On April 17 2019 20:38 RogerChillingworth wrote: this is a horrible poll. 4 options say "no" and 1 option says "ABSOLUTELY".
Like, he's clearly the greatest because even players like inno and mvp were dominant in a time of everyone being worse at the game, and also a lesser iteration of the game in WoL and HotS.
As of right now, it's Maru. He is the most skilled player we've ever had, even if he trips at foreign tournaments at the moment. Honestly just don't think he prepares at all for those.
Well, that's not correct. 2 options say "no", 1 sais "perhaps", 1 sais "yes", 1 is obviously a fun option.
On April 17 2019 18:43 Harris1st wrote: @fronkschnonk These are some fair points. I can accept these. AFAIK everyone can qualify for IEM, making it the hardest tournament playerbase
Yes, as I said, IEM is the one exception. But the difference is a very minor one, considering that only very few foreigners actually make it into Ro16 of IEM (around 2-4 foreigners) and that some great foreigners are normally also trying to qualify for GSL (for season 2 this year we have special and scarlett in there).
IEM is closest to GSL difficulty. But still - you have higher ping when playing US or European qualis on their servers which makes the environment slightly better for foreigners(which means shit for NA qualifiers as they were dominated by Koreans, but makes a case for European qualication).
Ok, here you have some helpful datas regarding the players concurring for the GOAT title(I am deliberately excluding accomplished and relevant ones like MMA, Polt and MC since they are rarely involved in the discussion). This is mostly based on "Premier tournament medalists", a page on Liquipedia; I am adding Major victories, career lenght(from the first to the last "result" on player's Liquipedia page, excluding Taeja's* after the military since no player is performing well after being discharged from the army) and a brief comment, while not mentioning placements a player has not reached(I won't write "zero second places", for instance); I am only considering results in individual tournaments.
TAEJA(Career span: 72 months*, still active): -11 Premier titles(4 Dreamhacks, 3 HSC, 2 Asus Rog, 1 IEM, 1 MLG); -2 second places(Dreamhack, Red Bull battleground); -1 third place(Dreamhack); -11 semifinals( 2 Code S, 2 IEM, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, Code A, HSC, WCS AM, MLG, Dreamhack).
He's the one with the most victories(deadly in the finals with his 11-2 score) and ro4 appearances in Premier tournaments; however, he is missing a korean title and the tournaments he won aren't the hardest on average. His wrists problems are probably the reason of his decay after 2014.
LIFE(Career span: 53 months): -10 Premier titles(2 Code S, 2 IEM, 2 MLG, WCS Global final="BlizzCon", GSL Blizzard Cup, Dreamhack, Iron Squid); -4 second places(2 Dreamhack, WCS Global finals="BlizzCon", Team Liquid's SL); -6 semifinals(Code S, StarLeague, KeSpa Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, Asus ROG); -3 Major titles(Kung fu Cup, The Big One, Ritmix RU);
Two code S victories mixed in with the most prestigious international tournaments resulting in a double Triple Crown; a bonjwa-like run in 2012/2013 with 5/8 premier tournaments won in five months. He matchfixed and was rightfully banned a few months after being a map away from his second BlizzCon.
MVP(Career span: 45 months): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, BlizzCon, World Cyber Games, GSL World Cup="GSL vs the World", IEM, MLG, WCS EU); -3 second places(2 Code S, Code A); -5 semifinals(Code S, WCS Season finals, Blizzard Cup, IEM, MLG); -1 fourth place(MLG); -2 Major titles(Gainward, Team Ace Invitational).
Great success in GSL added to the most important international titles leading to two Triple Crowns; he had the single best year(2011, 6/15 Premier plus 2 Major and several minors) in non region locked Sc2. He was forced to retire relatively early due to crippling issues at his back.
INNOVATION(Career span: 81 months, still active): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, 2 IEM, WESG, GSL vs the World, WCS Season finals, StarLeague); -2 second places(Code S, Dreamhack); -1 third place(MLG); -6 semifinals(Code S, OSL, GSL Super Tournament, Dreamhack, Asus Rog, MSI beat it); -1 fourth place(Dreamhack); -4 Major titles(HSC, Destiny I, Wardi TL's map contest, VSL).
Very strong achievements in Korea(GSL results comparable with Mvp's and one StarLeague) and good international results; he's the one with the most Major victories on top of that.
MARU(Career span: 103 months, still active): -7 Premier titles(4 Code S, OSL, StarLeague, WESG); -2 second places(WESG, IEM); -1 third place(WESG); -9 semifinals(4 Code S, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, GSL vs the world, IEM, Hot6ix Cup); -1 Major title(Asia Starcraft League).
The best achievements in korean tournaments(the only "korean Triple Crown", most Code S victories and all consecutive) with very limited international success; he's the one with the least titles(in this list) but sports a very dominant run in 2018(almost bonjwa-like despite partially overlapping with Serral's). He is currently the highest earner.
On April 17 2019 20:38 RogerChillingworth wrote: this is a horrible poll. 4 options say "no" and 1 option says "ABSOLUTELY".
Like, he's clearly the greatest because even players like inno and mvp were dominant in a time of everyone being worse at the game, and also a lesser iteration of the game in WoL and HotS.
As of right now, it's Maru. He is the most skilled player we've ever had, even if he trips at foreign tournaments at the moment. Honestly just don't think he prepares at all for those.
Well, that's not correct. 2 options say "no", 1 sais "perhaps", 1 sais "yes", 1 is obviously a fun option.
On April 17 2019 18:43 Harris1st wrote: @fronkschnonk These are some fair points. I can accept these. AFAIK everyone can qualify for IEM, making it the hardest tournament playerbase
Yes, as I said, IEM is the one exception. But the difference is a very minor one, considering that only very few foreigners actually make it into Ro16 of IEM (around 2-4 foreigners) and that some great foreigners are normally also trying to qualify for GSL (for season 2 this year we have special and scarlett in there).
IEM is closest to GSL difficulty. But still - you have higher ping when playing US or European qualis on their servers which makes the environment slightly better for foreigners(which means shit for NA qualifiers as they were dominated by Koreans, but makes a case for European qualication).
I’ve always felt they were borderline as hard in difficulty, foreign LANs in general, outside of format and travel usually the amount of people who one would consider genuine title contenders to win a GSL or a weekender isn’t all that different.
GSL takes a while to get through as well, absolute not to knock it, I like the format. On the other hand guys can be in good shape and qualify and subsequently slump, or guys who miss out can get into a shape that would have seen them as contenders if they were parachuted in later.
The shorter lag time between qualification for some foreign LANs and the tournament actually happening can conceivably be a better snapshot of quite who is in form for that particular tournament.
Blizzcon being the culmination of a circuit you see this quite a lot too. It’s not all that common at least to my recollection that the consensus overall best player that year also wins Blizzcon
On April 17 2019 20:38 RogerChillingworth wrote: this is a horrible poll. 4 options say "no" and 1 option says "ABSOLUTELY".
Like, he's clearly the greatest because even players like inno and mvp were dominant in a time of everyone being worse at the game, and also a lesser iteration of the game in WoL and HotS.
As of right now, it's Maru. He is the most skilled player we've ever had, even if he trips at foreign tournaments at the moment. Honestly just don't think he prepares at all for those.
Well, that's not correct. 2 options say "no", 1 sais "perhaps", 1 sais "yes", 1 is obviously a fun option.
On April 17 2019 18:43 Harris1st wrote: @fronkschnonk These are some fair points. I can accept these. AFAIK everyone can qualify for IEM, making it the hardest tournament playerbase
Yes, as I said, IEM is the one exception. But the difference is a very minor one, considering that only very few foreigners actually make it into Ro16 of IEM (around 2-4 foreigners) and that some great foreigners are normally also trying to qualify for GSL (for season 2 this year we have special and scarlett in there).
IEM is closest to GSL difficulty. But still - you have higher ping when playing US or European qualis on their servers which makes the environment slightly better for foreigners(which means shit for NA qualifiers as they were dominated by Koreans, but makes a case for European qualication).
Well, playerwise IEM should be harder theoretically, shouldn't it? All relevant Korean players (except Classic T.T) flew to Katowice in order to qualify via open bracket. This ways IEM featured all top Koreans plus the few very best foreigners which should be slightly better than "only" all top Koreans.
On April 17 2019 20:38 RogerChillingworth wrote: this is a horrible poll. 4 options say "no" and 1 option says "ABSOLUTELY".
Like, he's clearly the greatest because even players like inno and mvp were dominant in a time of everyone being worse at the game, and also a lesser iteration of the game in WoL and HotS.
As of right now, it's Maru. He is the most skilled player we've ever had, even if he trips at foreign tournaments at the moment. Honestly just don't think he prepares at all for those.
Well, that's not correct. 2 options say "no", 1 sais "perhaps", 1 sais "yes", 1 is obviously a fun option.
On April 17 2019 18:43 Harris1st wrote: @fronkschnonk These are some fair points. I can accept these. AFAIK everyone can qualify for IEM, making it the hardest tournament playerbase
Yes, as I said, IEM is the one exception. But the difference is a very minor one, considering that only very few foreigners actually make it into Ro16 of IEM (around 2-4 foreigners) and that some great foreigners are normally also trying to qualify for GSL (for season 2 this year we have special and scarlett in there).
IEM is closest to GSL difficulty. But still - you have higher ping when playing US or European qualis on their servers which makes the environment slightly better for foreigners(which means shit for NA qualifiers as they were dominated by Koreans, but makes a case for European qualication).
IEM has OFFLINE qualifiers. Just like GSL.... I really don't see the relevance of pings here
On April 17 2019 23:10 Xain0n wrote: Ok, here you have some helpful datas regarding the players concurring for the GOAT title(I am deliberately excluding accomplished and relevant ones like MMA, Polt and MC since they are rarely involved in the discussion). This is mostly based on "Premier tournament medalists", a page on Liquipedia; I am adding Major victories, career lenght(from the first to the last "result" on player's Liquipedia page, excluding Taeja's* after the military since no player is performing well after being discharged from the army) and a brief comment, while not mentioning placements a player has not reached(I won't write "zero second places", for instance); I am only considering results in individual tournaments.
TAEJA(Career span: 72 months*, still active): -11 Premier titles(4 Dreamhacks, 3 HSC, 2 Asus Rog, 1 IEM, 1 MLG); -2 second places(Dreamhack, Red Bull battleground); -1 third place(Dreamhack); -11 semifinals( 2 Code S, 2 IEM, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, Code A, HSC, WCS AM, MLG, Dreamhack).
He's the one with the most victories(deadly in the finals with his 11-2 score) and ro4 appearances in Premier tournaments; however, he is missing a korean title and the tournaments he won aren't the hardest on average. His wrists problems are probably the reason of his decay after 2014.
LIFE(Career span: 53 months): -10 Premier titles(2 Code S, 2 IEM, 2 MLG, WCS Global final="BlizzCon", GSL Blizzard Cup, Dreamhack, Iron Squid); -4 second places(2 Dreamhack, WCS Global finals="BlizzCon", Team Liquid's SL); -6 semifinals(Code S, StarLeague, KeSpa Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, Asus ROG); -3 Major titles(Kung fu Cup, The Big One, Ritmix RU);
Two code S victories mixed in with the most prestigious international tournaments resulting in a double Triple Crown; a bonjwa-like run in 2012/2013 with 5/8 premier tournaments won in five months. He matchfixed and was rightfully banned a few months after being a map away from his second BlizzCon.
MVP(Career span: 45 months): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, BlizzCon, World Cyber Games, GSL World Cup="GSL vs the World", IEM, MLG, WCS EU); -3 second places(2 Code S, Code A); -5 semifinals(Code S, WCS Season finals, Blizzard Cup, IEM, MLG); -1 fourth place(MLG); -2 Major titles(Gainward, Team Ace Invitational).
Great success in GSL added to the most important international titles leading to two Triple Crowns; he had the single best year(2011, 6/15 Premier plus 2 Major and several minors) in non region locked Sc2. He was forced to retire relatively early due to crippling issues at his back.
INNOVATION(Career span: 81 months, still active): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, 2 IEM, WESG, GSL vs the World, WCS Season finals, StarLeague); -2 second places(Code S, Dreamhack); -1 third place(MLG); -6 semifinals(Code S, OSL, GSL Super Tournament, Dreamhack, Asus Rog, MSI beat it); -1 fourth place(Dreamhack); -4 Major titles(HSC, Destiny I, Wardi TL's map contest, VSL).
Very strong achievements in Korea(GSL results comparable with Mvp's and one StarLeague) and good international results; he's the one with the most Major victories on top of that.
MARU(Career span: 103 months, still active): -7 Premier titles(4 Code S, OSL, StarLeague, WESG); -2 second places(WESG, IEM); -1 third place(WESG); -9 semifinals(4 Code S, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, GSL vs the world, IEM, Hot6ix Cup); -1 Major title(Asia Starcraft League).
The best achievements in korean tournaments(the only "korean Triple Crown", most Code S victories and all consecutive) with very limited international success; he's the one with the least titles(in this list) but sports a very dominant run in 2018(almost bonjwa-like despite partially overlapping with Serral's). He is currently the highest earner.
LOL... So much work, and so little value. GSL/Blizzcon has the same value as HSC/Asus Rog/WESG?
Then lets also count Proleague. Counting that Taeja is completely out of the equation and Maru is again, the strongest.
And shouldnt we also count monthly Olimoleagues or Leifeng? They are much more "premiere" than some tournies in your list in terms of competition.
At this point I am honestly just surprised that you did not list Serral there
On April 17 2019 23:37 Xain0n wrote: If you want to have a look at the individual achievements of the potential GOAT, check my previous post.
I frankly don't see how Maru could be considered undisputed GOAT.
Because you're ignoring PL and look just at numbers.
They’re still some good numbers to have laid out in such a manner. Career spans especially, I had a vague idea of all of them but was a bit off in some, so having them all gathered like that I liked.
As much as I loved Proleague and think it’s undervalued in such discussions, it’s just adding a variable to the GOAT discussion that didn’t even exist for Mvp especially.
I'd still put Innovation > Maru for now, but Maru's getting close and another big win may be enough to give him the top spot. However, a lot of people chanting Maru for GOAT it seems have some recency bias. Would be cool to see Inno take another premier this year and really add fuel to the fire
On April 17 2019 23:10 Xain0n wrote: Ok, here you have some helpful datas regarding the players concurring for the GOAT title(I am deliberately excluding accomplished and relevant ones like MMA, Polt and MC since they are rarely involved in the discussion). This is mostly based on "Premier tournament medalists", a page on Liquipedia; I am adding Major victories, career lenght(from the first to the last "result" on player's Liquipedia page, excluding Taeja's* after the military since no player is performing well after being discharged from the army) and a brief comment, while not mentioning placements a player has not reached(I won't write "zero second places", for instance); I am only considering results in individual tournaments.
TAEJA(Career span: 72 months*, still active): -11 Premier titles(4 Dreamhacks, 3 HSC, 2 Asus Rog, 1 IEM, 1 MLG); -2 second places(Dreamhack, Red Bull battleground); -1 third place(Dreamhack); -11 semifinals( 2 Code S, 2 IEM, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, Code A, HSC, WCS AM, MLG, Dreamhack).
He's the one with the most victories(deadly in the finals with his 11-2 score) and ro4 appearances in Premier tournaments; however, he is missing a korean title and the tournaments he won aren't the hardest on average. His wrists problems are probably the reason of his decay after 2014.
LIFE(Career span: 53 months): -10 Premier titles(2 Code S, 2 IEM, 2 MLG, WCS Global final="BlizzCon", GSL Blizzard Cup, Dreamhack, Iron Squid); -4 second places(2 Dreamhack, WCS Global finals="BlizzCon", Team Liquid's SL); -6 semifinals(Code S, StarLeague, KeSpa Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, Asus ROG); -3 Major titles(Kung fu Cup, The Big One, Ritmix RU);
Two code S victories mixed in with the most prestigious international tournaments resulting in a double Triple Crown; a bonjwa-like run in 2012/2013 with 5/8 premier tournaments won in five months. He matchfixed and was rightfully banned a few months after being a map away from his second BlizzCon.
MVP(Career span: 45 months): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, BlizzCon, World Cyber Games, GSL World Cup="GSL vs the World", IEM, MLG, WCS EU); -3 second places(2 Code S, Code A); -5 semifinals(Code S, WCS Season finals, Blizzard Cup, IEM, MLG); -1 fourth place(MLG); -2 Major titles(Gainward, Team Ace Invitational).
Great success in GSL added to the most important international titles leading to two Triple Crowns; he had the single best year(2011, 6/15 Premier plus 2 Major and several minors) in non region locked Sc2. He was forced to retire relatively early due to crippling issues at his back.
INNOVATION(Career span: 81 months, still active): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, 2 IEM, WESG, GSL vs the World, WCS Season finals, StarLeague); -2 second places(Code S, Dreamhack); -1 third place(MLG); -6 semifinals(Code S, OSL, GSL Super Tournament, Dreamhack, Asus Rog, MSI beat it); -1 fourth place(Dreamhack); -4 Major titles(HSC, Destiny I, Wardi TL's map contest, VSL).
Very strong achievements in Korea(GSL results comparable with Mvp's and one StarLeague) and good international results; he's the one with the most Major victories on top of that.
MARU(Career span: 103 months, still active): -7 Premier titles(4 Code S, OSL, StarLeague, WESG); -2 second places(WESG, IEM); -1 third place(WESG); -9 semifinals(4 Code S, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, GSL vs the world, IEM, Hot6ix Cup); -1 Major title(Asia Starcraft League).
The best achievements in korean tournaments(the only "korean Triple Crown", most Code S victories and all consecutive) with very limited international success; he's the one with the least titles(in this list) but sports a very dominant run in 2018(almost bonjwa-like despite partially overlapping with Serral's). He is currently the highest earner.
On April 17 2019 23:37 Xain0n wrote: If you want to have a look at the individual achievements of the potential GOAT, check my previous post.
I frankly don't see how Maru could be considered undisputed GOAT.
Because you're ignoring PL and look just at numbers.
They’re still some good numbers to have laid out in such a manner. Career spans especially, I had a vague idea of all of them but was a bit off in some, so having them all gathered like that I liked.
As much as I loved Proleague and think it’s undervalued in such discussions, it’s just adding a variable to the GOAT discussion that didn’t even exist for Mvp especially.
Then you could also say because Blizzcon didn't exist/was an invitational before 2012 it shouldn't count for the people who won it. Proleague was extremely important in 2013-2016 and I see no reason why it shouldn't count.
Also the players who were active in Proleague had less opportunies to travel and thus less results in foreign tournaments so I think that balances out.
On April 17 2019 23:10 Xain0n wrote: Ok, here you have some helpful datas regarding the players concurring for the GOAT title(I am deliberately excluding accomplished and relevant ones like MMA, Polt and MC since they are rarely involved in the discussion). This is mostly based on "Premier tournament medalists", a page on Liquipedia; I am adding Major victories, career lenght(from the first to the last "result" on player's Liquipedia page, excluding Taeja's* after the military since no player is performing well after being discharged from the army) and a brief comment, while not mentioning placements a player has not reached(I won't write "zero second places", for instance); I am only considering results in individual tournaments.
TAEJA(Career span: 72 months*, still active): -11 Premier titles(4 Dreamhacks, 3 HSC, 2 Asus Rog, 1 IEM, 1 MLG); -2 second places(Dreamhack, Red Bull battleground); -1 third place(Dreamhack); -11 semifinals( 2 Code S, 2 IEM, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, Code A, HSC, WCS AM, MLG, Dreamhack).
He's the one with the most victories(deadly in the finals with his 11-2 score) and ro4 appearances in Premier tournaments; however, he is missing a korean title and the tournaments he won aren't the hardest on average. His wrists problems are probably the reason of his decay after 2014.
LIFE(Career span: 53 months): -10 Premier titles(2 Code S, 2 IEM, 2 MLG, WCS Global final="BlizzCon", GSL Blizzard Cup, Dreamhack, Iron Squid); -4 second places(2 Dreamhack, WCS Global finals="BlizzCon", Team Liquid's SL); -6 semifinals(Code S, StarLeague, KeSpa Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, Asus ROG); -3 Major titles(Kung fu Cup, The Big One, Ritmix RU);
Two code S victories mixed in with the most prestigious international tournaments resulting in a double Triple Crown; a bonjwa-like run in 2012/2013 with 5/8 premier tournaments won in five months. He matchfixed and was rightfully banned a few months after being a map away from his second BlizzCon.
MVP(Career span: 45 months): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, BlizzCon, World Cyber Games, GSL World Cup="GSL vs the World", IEM, MLG, WCS EU); -3 second places(2 Code S, Code A); -5 semifinals(Code S, WCS Season finals, Blizzard Cup, IEM, MLG); -1 fourth place(MLG); -2 Major titles(Gainward, Team Ace Invitational).
Great success in GSL added to the most important international titles leading to two Triple Crowns; he had the single best year(2011, 6/15 Premier plus 2 Major and several minors) in non region locked Sc2. He was forced to retire relatively early due to crippling issues at his back.
INNOVATION(Career span: 81 months, still active): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, 2 IEM, WESG, GSL vs the World, WCS Season finals, StarLeague); -2 second places(Code S, Dreamhack); -1 third place(MLG); -6 semifinals(Code S, OSL, GSL Super Tournament, Dreamhack, Asus Rog, MSI beat it); -1 fourth place(Dreamhack); -4 Major titles(HSC, Destiny I, Wardi TL's map contest, VSL).
Very strong achievements in Korea(GSL results comparable with Mvp's and one StarLeague) and good international results; he's the one with the most Major victories on top of that.
MARU(Career span: 103 months, still active): -7 Premier titles(4 Code S, OSL, StarLeague, WESG); -2 second places(WESG, IEM); -1 third place(WESG); -9 semifinals(4 Code S, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, GSL vs the world, IEM, Hot6ix Cup); -1 Major title(Asia Starcraft League).
The best achievements in korean tournaments(the only "korean Triple Crown", most Code S victories and all consecutive) with very limited international success; he's the one with the least titles(in this list) but sports a very dominant run in 2018(almost bonjwa-like despite partially overlapping with Serral's). He is currently the highest earner.
LOL... So much work, and so little value. GSL/Blizzcon has the same value as HSC/Asus Rog/WESG?
Then lets also count Proleague. Counting that Taeja is completely out of the equation and Maru is again, the strongest.
And shouldnt we also count monthly Olimoleagues or Leifeng? They are much more "premiere" than some tournies in your list in terms of competition.
At this point I am honestly just surprised that you did not list Serral there
I did not decide what is a Premier tournament and what is not, you can't complain with me; tell Liquipedia xd. This one is a list, weighting the titles is arbitrary(and you certainly aren't the fittest one with all this Olimoleague babbling); Serral hasn't won enough to figure on this list. And no, I am not only looking at numbers, just read the comments under the achievements.
Also, including team league results is a questionable decision; Proleague wasn't as integral as Sc2 as it was to BW.
In any of case, all of the players I listed were in GSTL with the following results:Life(21-15 and one All Kill), Innovation(12-2, one AK), TaeJa(10-4, two AK), Mvp(10-11), Maru(9-11); I handpicked the numbers so they might need to be revised.
Only Maru(79-39, one AK, 7-5 in ace matches) and Innovation(75-41, three AK, 4-4 ace) played in Proleague; their results were very good results, even if none of them truly is the best Proleague player.
Well sure, I did say they’re undervalued in the discussion.
I don’t think it balances out, it would explain someone winning less with less opportunities, but not them not winning tournaments they actually do go to.
I don’t think one can do a real definitive GOAT list for SC2 without a player that’s absurdly dominant because the scene has had so many changes in tournament structures, relative strength of fields, fragmentation of the scene etc.
That’s not even factoring in injuries and retirements, or how we weight early innovators vs perfect execution of the later period of the game, or metas of eras etc.
On April 18 2019 00:30 Wombat_NI wrote: Well sure, I did say they’re undervalued in the discussion.
I don’t think it balances out, it would explain someone winning less with less opportunities, but not them not winning tournaments they actually do go to.
I don’t think one can do a real definitive GOAT list for SC2 without a player that’s absurdly dominant because the scene has had so many changes in tournament structures, relative strength of fields, fragmentation of the scene etc.
That’s not even factoring in injuries and retirements, or how we weight early innovators vs perfect execution of the later period of the game, or metas of eras etc.
Yea sure, one should value how stacked the tournaments someone won were(Aligulac?), how hard was his path to victory(Aligulac too), somehow factor in meta being favourable/unfavourable at the moment of the victory and so on. Career's span and evolution have some relevance as well, in my opinion.
In any of case, as it should be quite evident merely looking at the numbers presented, to consider Maru undisputed GOAT you must be valuing korean tournaments incredibly high as opposed to international ones(or maybe it's just recency/Code S bias).
On April 17 2019 23:10 Xain0n wrote: Ok, here you have some helpful datas regarding the players concurring for the GOAT title(I am deliberately excluding accomplished and relevant ones like MMA, Polt and MC since they are rarely involved in the discussion). This is mostly based on "Premier tournament medalists", a page on Liquipedia; I am adding Major victories, career lenght(from the first to the last "result" on player's Liquipedia page, excluding Taeja's* after the military since no player is performing well after being discharged from the army) and a brief comment, while not mentioning placements a player has not reached(I won't write "zero second places", for instance); I am only considering results in individual tournaments.
TAEJA(Career span: 72 months*, still active): -11 Premier titles(4 Dreamhacks, 3 HSC, 2 Asus Rog, 1 IEM, 1 MLG); -2 second places(Dreamhack, Red Bull battleground); -1 third place(Dreamhack); -11 semifinals( 2 Code S, 2 IEM, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, Code A, HSC, WCS AM, MLG, Dreamhack).
He's the one with the most victories(deadly in the finals with his 11-2 score) and ro4 appearances in Premier tournaments; however, he is missing a korean title and the tournaments he won aren't the hardest on average. His wrists problems are probably the reason of his decay after 2014.
LIFE(Career span: 53 months): -10 Premier titles(2 Code S, 2 IEM, 2 MLG, WCS Global final="BlizzCon", GSL Blizzard Cup, Dreamhack, Iron Squid); -4 second places(2 Dreamhack, WCS Global finals="BlizzCon", Team Liquid's SL); -6 semifinals(Code S, StarLeague, KeSpa Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, Asus ROG); -3 Major titles(Kung fu Cup, The Big One, Ritmix RU);
Two code S victories mixed in with the most prestigious international tournaments resulting in a double Triple Crown; a bonjwa-like run in 2012/2013 with 5/8 premier tournaments won in five months. He matchfixed and was rightfully banned a few months after being a map away from his second BlizzCon.
MVP(Career span: 45 months): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, BlizzCon, World Cyber Games, GSL World Cup="GSL vs the World", IEM, MLG, WCS EU); -3 second places(2 Code S, Code A); -5 semifinals(Code S, WCS Season finals, Blizzard Cup, IEM, MLG); -1 fourth place(MLG); -2 Major titles(Gainward, Team Ace Invitational).
Great success in GSL added to the most important international titles leading to two Triple Crowns; he had the single best year(2011, 6/15 Premier plus 2 Major and several minors) in non region locked Sc2. He was forced to retire relatively early due to crippling issues at his back.
INNOVATION(Career span: 81 months, still active): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, 2 IEM, WESG, GSL vs the World, WCS Season finals, StarLeague); -2 second places(Code S, Dreamhack); -1 third place(MLG); -6 semifinals(Code S, OSL, GSL Super Tournament, Dreamhack, Asus Rog, MSI beat it); -1 fourth place(Dreamhack); -4 Major titles(HSC, Destiny I, Wardi TL's map contest, VSL).
Very strong achievements in Korea(GSL results comparable with Mvp's and one StarLeague) and good international results; he's the one with the most Major victories on top of that.
MARU(Career span: 103 months, still active): -7 Premier titles(4 Code S, OSL, StarLeague, WESG); -2 second places(WESG, IEM); -1 third place(WESG); -9 semifinals(4 Code S, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, GSL vs the world, IEM, Hot6ix Cup); -1 Major title(Asia Starcraft League).
The best achievements in korean tournaments(the only "korean Triple Crown", most Code S victories and all consecutive) with very limited international success; he's the one with the least titles(in this list) but sports a very dominant run in 2018(almost bonjwa-like despite partially overlapping with Serral's). He is currently the highest earner.
LOL... So much work, and so little value. GSL/Blizzcon has the same value as HSC/Asus Rog/WESG?
Then lets also count Proleague. Counting that Taeja is completely out of the equation and Maru is again, the strongest.
And shouldnt we also count monthly Olimoleagues or Leifeng? They are much more "premiere" than some tournies in your list in terms of competition.
At this point I am honestly just surprised that you did not list Serral there
I did not decide what is a Premier tournament and what is not, you can't complain with me; tell Liquipedia xd. This one is a list, weighting the titles is arbitrary(and you certainly aren't the fittest one with all this Olimoleague babbling); Serral hasn't won enough to figure on this list. And no, I am not only looking at numbers, just read the comment.
Also, including team league results is a questionable decision; Proleague wasn't as integral as Sc2 as it was to BW. In any of case, Life(21-15 and one All Kill), Mvp(10-11), TaeJa(10-4, two AK) and Innovation(12-2, one AK) played in GSTL(I handpicked the numbers so those might be wrong). Maru(79-39, one AK, 7-5 ace) and Innovation(75-41, three AK, 4-4 ace) both played in Proleague with very good results even if none of them truly is the best Proleague player.
And for the record, if we exclude the disaster of the 2011-2012 BW/SC2 hybrid league where Inno went 0-6 in SC2,
Maru: 79-39 = 66.9% Innovation: 75-35 = 68.2%.
People also forget that at the end of WOL during broodlord/infestor Innovation was considered the best terran
On April 17 2019 23:10 Xain0n wrote: Ok, here you have some helpful datas regarding the players concurring for the GOAT title(I am deliberately excluding accomplished and relevant ones like MMA, Polt and MC since they are rarely involved in the discussion). This is mostly based on "Premier tournament medalists", a page on Liquipedia; I am adding Major victories, career lenght(from the first to the last "result" on player's Liquipedia page, excluding Taeja's* after the military since no player is performing well after being discharged from the army) and a brief comment, while not mentioning placements a player has not reached(I won't write "zero second places", for instance); I am only considering results in individual tournaments.
TAEJA(Career span: 72 months*, still active): -11 Premier titles(4 Dreamhacks, 3 HSC, 2 Asus Rog, 1 IEM, 1 MLG); -2 second places(Dreamhack, Red Bull battleground); -1 third place(Dreamhack); -11 semifinals( 2 Code S, 2 IEM, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, Code A, HSC, WCS AM, MLG, Dreamhack).
He's the one with the most victories(deadly in the finals with his 11-2 score) and ro4 appearances in Premier tournaments; however, he is missing a korean title and the tournaments he won aren't the hardest on average. His wrists problems are probably the reason of his decay after 2014.
LIFE(Career span: 53 months): -10 Premier titles(2 Code S, 2 IEM, 2 MLG, WCS Global final="BlizzCon", GSL Blizzard Cup, Dreamhack, Iron Squid); -4 second places(2 Dreamhack, WCS Global finals="BlizzCon", Team Liquid's SL); -6 semifinals(Code S, StarLeague, KeSpa Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, Asus ROG); -3 Major titles(Kung fu Cup, The Big One, Ritmix RU);
Two code S victories mixed in with the most prestigious international tournaments resulting in a double Triple Crown; a bonjwa-like run in 2012/2013 with 5/8 premier tournaments won in five months. He matchfixed and was rightfully banned a few months after being a map away from his second BlizzCon.
MVP(Career span: 45 months): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, BlizzCon, World Cyber Games, GSL World Cup="GSL vs the World", IEM, MLG, WCS EU); -3 second places(2 Code S, Code A); -5 semifinals(Code S, WCS Season finals, Blizzard Cup, IEM, MLG); -1 fourth place(MLG); -2 Major titles(Gainward, Team Ace Invitational).
Great success in GSL added to the most important international titles leading to two Triple Crowns; he had the single best year(2011, 6/15 Premier plus 2 Major and several minors) in non region locked Sc2. He was forced to retire relatively early due to crippling issues at his back.
INNOVATION(Career span: 81 months, still active): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, 2 IEM, WESG, GSL vs the World, WCS Season finals, StarLeague); -2 second places(Code S, Dreamhack); -1 third place(MLG); -6 semifinals(Code S, OSL, GSL Super Tournament, Dreamhack, Asus Rog, MSI beat it); -1 fourth place(Dreamhack); -4 Major titles(HSC, Destiny I, Wardi TL's map contest, VSL).
Very strong achievements in Korea(GSL results comparable with Mvp's and one StarLeague) and good international results; he's the one with the most Major victories on top of that.
MARU(Career span: 103 months, still active): -7 Premier titles(4 Code S, OSL, StarLeague, WESG); -2 second places(WESG, IEM); -1 third place(WESG); -9 semifinals(4 Code S, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, GSL vs the world, IEM, Hot6ix Cup); -1 Major title(Asia Starcraft League).
The best achievements in korean tournaments(the only "korean Triple Crown", most Code S victories and all consecutive) with very limited international success; he's the one with the least titles(in this list) but sports a very dominant run in 2018(almost bonjwa-like despite partially overlapping with Serral's). He is currently the highest earner.
LOL... So much work, and so little value. GSL/Blizzcon has the same value as HSC/Asus Rog/WESG?
Then lets also count Proleague. Counting that Taeja is completely out of the equation and Maru is again, the strongest.
And shouldnt we also count monthly Olimoleagues or Leifeng? They are much more "premiere" than some tournies in your list in terms of competition.
At this point I am honestly just surprised that you did not list Serral there
I did not decide what is a Premier tournament and what is not, you can't complain with me; tell Liquipedia xd. This one is a list, weighting the titles is arbitrary(and you certainly aren't the fittest one with all this Olimoleague babbling); Serral hasn't won enough to figure on this list. And no, I am not only looking at numbers, just read the comment.
Also, including team league results is a questionable decision; Proleague wasn't as integral as Sc2 as it was to BW. In any of case, Life(21-15 and one All Kill), Mvp(10-11) and TaeJa(10-4, two AK) played in GSTL(I handpicked the numbers so those might be wrong). Maru(79-39, one AK, 7-5 ace) and Innovation(75?-41, three AK, 4-4 ace) both played in Proleague with very good results even if none of them truly is the best Proleague player.
Proleague was super prestigeous after the full kespa switch. But I wouldn't include the 2012/13-season because in that season the esf-teams and most original SC2-Players didn't participate, so it wasn't as competitive (especially with quite some kespa players not adjusting very well/fast to SC2). It also inflated some player's records because of the allkill-format rounds (which is the reason why Inno could gather more allkills). Especially Maru's 22-4 record in 2016's proleague is insane and unheard of in SC2.
On April 17 2019 04:34 Bagration wrote: Not yet - his best year thus far (2018) was overshadowed by Serral. If he can keep up this form through the end of year, and Serral doesn't keep on winning everything, then he has a shot. So far, it's looking good with him grabbing his 4th straight GSL while Serral lost WCS to Reynor.
Otherwise, Maru risks being overshadowed during his own peak era (e.g., Jaedong to Flash)
Serral isn't winning everything right now, like the WCS you mentioned. And he lost at WESG
On April 17 2019 04:34 Bagration wrote: Not yet - his best year thus far (2018) was overshadowed by Serral. If he can keep up this form through the end of year, and Serral doesn't keep on winning everything, then he has a shot. So far, it's looking good with him grabbing his 4th straight GSL while Serral lost WCS to Reynor.
Otherwise, Maru risks being overshadowed during his own peak era (e.g., Jaedong to Flash)
Serral isn't winning everything right now, like the WCS you mentioned. And he lost at WESG
If memory serves me correctly, Serral and Maru have competed in 4 of the same tournaments since Maru's WESG win over Serral last year, in which Serral placed higher than Maru in all of them (though at this year's WESG they can effectively be considered tied as they both lost to Inno)
On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous.
Well, Maru is one of the few who rarely traveled to tournaments abroad and back then most of those tournaments had to be considered inferior to GSL by far. Also in 2013-15 Maru won two Starleagues of GSL calibre, gathered 6 top 4 and additional 6 top 8 finishes in premier events (GSLs and similar calibre) and placed 2nd in the stacked IEM Taipei (losing to Life in a nailbiting close final). And after his aquisition by JAGW he went on to be the top Proleague player for 3 seasons straight. He was one of the most dominant, feared and successful forces and probably the most consistent player of that time.
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
Funny enough, I'm still not sure if I can call Maru GOAT because other players have achieved great things, too.
Still, his only good weekender tournament is a final during this period, you can add his non wins in SSL/GSL to give density to your argument but it's not like others players didn't have good placement without winning nor it contradicts my point. As for PL, yes he did well for sure, as Flash, soO, Zest and others. But saying he was the most dominent just like the biggest name is wrong, Zest was considered as the best players of 2014 overall, Life in his prime created a feeling of awe that Maru never matched at this time (hots), the same can be said for Innovation. He was clearly behind. Even Taeja who is peirceved as a very overrated player for his unholy wins in foreign tournaments has been time to time considered as more impressive with stellar play and iconic games. (vs rain, inno, soO, zest, life ext)
That said, it's ok to think Maru was the most consistent, you bring facts (considering he sometimes failed in GSL/SLL, only the pl results are really worth it to prove his super consistency imo even if I think it is quite overrated, some players who did well in PL didn't bring much results while others who didn't did a lot) but this is just wrong :
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
You forgot the loss of the gaming house with the kespa training regime which benefited to a lot of players. Or maybe the loss of this unleashed their potential ? It's quite a fantasy world but ok.
As for the rise of the level, it has been stated by Snute and there is some true obviously for the foreigner scene because in contrary to the korean scene it received fresh blood and rising players, Showtime, Neeb, Serral, Reynor, Denver, Uthermal, ptitdrogo to name a few. While I think Snute has troubled to adapt to lotv and declined after reaching his heights in hots (quite a normal career), so it must be nuanced, I agree on the fact the foreigner scene is doing better but I have no clue how you can say the same for Korea without fresh blood and loss of important structures. (pl, gaming house) It is as you said, a delusional idea.
Maru was and has always been the best of his teammates in prep tournaments, it's quite logic he is the one who beneficits the most of it now. It is a massive structural advantage, ofc, some don't want to recognize it but it still is. It's always annoying when a maru fan or tbf, anyone is saying "Gsl is more competitive cuz players are getting older", they always forgot to mention the lack of new players, the loss of gaming houses, coaches and structures of the kespa teams as if it was meaningless for the competitivity of the game.
Moreover, my other argument is the loss of players without any replacement, there are no new super competitive players in Korea since a very long time while it lost a lot because of retierement, military, matchfixing scandal and so on : to name a few who were top players : herO (at his top in 2015), Soulkey, Rain, Life, Byul, Parting, Dream, MMA they were others very good ones who could beat anyone : Bbyong, Curious, Supernova, Sacsri, True, Hydra just to name of few... So, you're basically saying a gsl who would add this guy in competitive condition would be less competitive ? Adding more good players is making the tournament less competitive? Wtf is that... Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players, there are no more real groups of death (remember Life, flash, parting, innovation ?), the statement gsl is more competitive is clearly against basic logic.
Finally, we all know a 18 months retierement is big (at least I hope...) and still, Taeja managed to give Serral a lot troubles at the hsc, how is it possible for a player whose the skills are supposedly outdated ? So, winning a gsl today has not the same value than winning one between 2013-15-16. That's all.
People also forget that at the end of WOL during broodlord/infestor Innovation was considered the best terran
Only Maru's fans are forggeting it, I guess they will riot with this basic statement : Inno was the best terran of hots by a very large margin, considering how they're trolling in every threads mentionning Serral since his super tournament victory (and considering the level of toxicity, I am gentle with the term "trolling"...) or because some casters said he was the best ever ! Anyway, in the span of a +100 month career, Maru got a single weekender in 2018, enough said I suppose.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
I'm a big SC fanboy since BW days. Consistency is way more difficult in Sc2, the game is more volatile. I'm/was a huge fan of MVP, Inno, Soo, Serral, Rain, etc., I just enjoy the game as much as 10 years ago. And in my opinion yes, Maru is already the GOAT. 4 GSL in a row is, for me, THE feat in sc2 history. Also his playstyle is a joy to watch.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
What people constantly do is completely neglect maru's results before 2018 for some reason. He won SSL and OSL, two starleagues during a time where other players like zest didn't win more than that either. On top of that he had another 4 ro4 finishes in gsl and some ro8 finishes in starleagues (at least the ro4s one should absolutely take into consideration, ro8 arguably as well but to a lesser degree obviously) He got 2nd at IEM tapai and WESG 2016, had 3 ro4 finishes in 2013 s3 finals, hot6ix cup and blizzcon. Then add the proleague success to it and these feats alone are already an incredibly impressive career. I find it somewhat absurd to say there is a lot of recency bias going on under these circumstances, maru was one of the very best from 2013 onwards
On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous.
Well, Maru is one of the few who rarely traveled to tournaments abroad and back then most of those tournaments had to be considered inferior to GSL by far. Also in 2013-15 Maru won two Starleagues of GSL calibre, gathered 6 top 4 and additional 6 top 8 finishes in premier events (GSLs and similar calibre) and placed 2nd in the stacked IEM Taipei (losing to Life in a nailbiting close final). And after his aquisition by JAGW he went on to be the top Proleague player for 3 seasons straight. He was one of the most dominant, feared and successful forces and probably the most consistent player of that time.
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
Funny enough, I'm still not sure if I can call Maru GOAT because other players have achieved great things, too.
Still, his only good weekender tournament is a final during this period, you can add his non wins in SSL/GSL to give density to your argument but it's not like others players didn't have good placement without winning nor it contradicts my point. As for PL, yes he did well for sure, as Flash, soO, Zest and others. But saying he was the most dominent just like the biggest name is wrong, Zest was considered as the best players of 2014 overall, Life in his prime created a feeling of awe that Maru never matched at this time (hots), the same can be said for Innovation. He was clearly behind. Even Taeja who is peirceved as a very overrated player for his unholy wins in foreign tournaments has been time to time considered as more impressive with stellar play and iconic games. (vs rain, inno, soO, zest, life ext)
That said, it's ok to think Maru was the most consistent, you bring facts (considering he sometimes failed in GSL/SLL, only the pl results are really worth it to prove his super consistency imo even if I think it is quite overrated, some players who did well in PL didn't bring much results while others who didn't did a lot) but this is just wrong :
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
You forgot the loss of the gaming house with the kespa training regime which benefited to a lot of players. Or maybe the loss of this unleashed their potential ? It's quite a fantasy world but ok.
As for the rise of the level, it has been stated by Snute and there is some true obviously for the foreigner scene because in contrary to the korean scene it received fresh blood and rising players, Showtime, Neeb, Serral, Reynor, Denver, Uthermal, ptitdrogo to name a few. While I think Snute has troubled to adapt to lotv and declined after reaching his heights in hots (quite a normal career), so it must be nuanced, I agree on the fact the foreigner scene is doing better but I have no clue how you can say the same for Korea without fresh blood and loss of important structures. (pl, gaming house) It is as you said, a delusional idea.
Maru was and has always been the best of his teammates in prep tournaments, it's quite logic he is the one who beneficits the most of it now. It is a massive structural advantage, ofc, some don't want to recognize it but it still is. It's always annoying when a maru fan or tbf, anyone is saying "Gsl is more competitive cuz players are getting older", they always forgot to mention the lack of new players, the loss of gaming houses, coaches and structures of the kespa teams as if it was meaningless for the competitivity of the game.
Moreover, my other argument is the loss of players without any replacement, there are no new super competitive players in Korea since a very long time while it lost a lot because of retierement, military, matchfixing scandal and so on : to name a few who were top players : herO (at his top in 2015), Soulkey, Rain, Life, Byul, Parting, Dream, MMA they were others very good ones who could beat anyone : Bbyong, Curious, Supernova, Sacsri, True, Hydra just to name of few... So, you're basically saying a gsl who would add this guy in competitive condition would be less competitive ? Adding more good players is making the tournament less competitive? Wtf is that... Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players, there are no more real groups of death (remember Life, flash, parting, innovation ?), the statement gsl is more competitive is clearly against basic logic.
Finally, we all know a 18 months retierement is big (at least I hope...) and still, Taeja managed to give Serral a lot troubles at the hsc, how is it possible for a player whose the skills are supposedly outdated ? So, winning a gsl today has not the same value than winning one between 2013-15-16. That's all.
People also forget that at the end of WOL during broodlord/infestor Innovation was considered the best terran
Only Maru's fans are forggeting it, I guess they will riot with this basic statement : Inno was the best terran of hots by a very large margin, considering how they're trolling in every threads mentionning Serral since his super tournament victory (and considering the level of toxicity, I am gentle with the term "trolling"...) or because some casters said he was the best ever ! Anyway, in the span of a +100 month career, Maru got a single weekender in 2018, enough said I suppose.
All fair points, IMO anyway.
Team houses are especially beneficial for prep tournaments, and some players clearly benefit from that structure. Being out of that has benefitted some players though, so it’s not a pure advantage, it could be a disadvantage depending on who you are.
Also I mean it’s a super obvious point that isn’t mentioned enough, 3 different games, with different periods and metas on top of tournaments springing into being and ending, added to the Kespa/post Kespa split.
Mvp’s GSL finals run is both amazing and won’t be replicated, I don’t think you can replicate it in Legacy, the game is faster and rewards mechanics more that even with god tier set planning you won’t be able to see a player whose mechanics have been worn down by injury being able to make it regardless.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
What people constantly do is completely neglect maru's results before 2018 for some reason. He won SSL and OSL, two starleagues during a time where other players like zest didn't win more than that either. On top of that he had another 4 ro4 finishes in gsl and some ro8 finishes in starleagues (at least the ro4s one should absolutely take into consideration, ro8 arguably as well but to a lesser degree obviously) He got 2nd at IEM tapai and WESG 2016, had 3 ro4 finishes in 2013 s3 finals, hot6ix cup and blizzcon. Then add the proleague success to it and these feats alone are already an incredibly impressive career. I find it somewhat absurd to say there is a lot of recency bias going on under these circumstances, maru was one of the very best from 2013 onwards
The recency bias is what is making people claim for Maru being UNCONTESTED GOAT, there is no doubt he was a fine player before 2018 and that he deserves a very high seat at Sc2's council.
Nothing is forgotten, if you look at my previous posts in this thread I listed every placement above ro8 in the careers of TaeJa, Life, Mvp, Inno and Maru(and even their korean team league records after it was requested).
I understand all the statements but I disagree with some of them. Opinions, I suppose XD. The popularity decline of Sc2 in Korea is a fact. There's less players in Korea playing the game, but right now the skill lvl of the pros is just crazy. The scene is saturated, the players know each other so well, and in such a context it's just incredible winning 4 consecutive GSL's. There's less players for sure, but the true contenders, the tier1 players, is and has always been a limited group of names. It hasn't changed at all. And nowadays these few players are just freaking good. That's why I put Maru and Inno too above MVP. I'm a huge MVP fan, but it's undeniable that the GSL's victories of Maru or Inno had more tight competitors. You can see players like TOP, San, July or TheStC in the top places during MVP GSL's victories.
When the korean Sc2 scene was healthier, for example during Soulkey or Rain GSL victories (2013 and 2015), the game was way more refined than in the early days. But then again, the real contenders were a limited group of names. Players like Curious, MyuNgSiK, KangHo/Losira or Symbol made the quaterfinals during Soulkey or Rain GSL runs. Don't get me wrong, I loved Losira mechanics or MyuNgSiK crazy builds, but I cite them to show that the caliber of today contender players is just crazy. You only need to see them play really: Innovation, TY, Classic, Stats, Trap, Dark, Rogue, etc. Defeating consistently these players during 4 GSL's in a row puts Maru above MVP. And Inno too. It's just my opinion, obviously.
On April 18 2019 03:09 ubikz wrote: I understand all the statements but I disagree with some of them. Opinions, I suppose XD. The popularity decline of Sc2 in Korea is a fact. There's less players in Korea playing the game, but right now the skill lvl of the pros is just crazy. The scene is saturated, the players know each other so well, and in such a context it's just incredible winning 4 consecutive GSL's. There's less players for sure, but the true contenders, the tier1 players, is and has always been a limited group of names. It hasn't changed at all. And nowadays these few players are just freaking good. That's why I put Maru and Inno too above MVP. I'm a huge MVP fan, but it's undeniable that the GSL's victories of Maru or Inno had more tight competitors. You can see players like TOP, San, July or TheStC in the top places during MVP GSL's victories.
When the korean Sc2 scene was healthier, for example during Soulkey or Rain GSL victories (2013 and 2015), the game was way more refined than in the early days. But then again, the real contenders were a limited group of names. Players like Curious, MyuNgSiK, KangHo/Losira or Symbol made the quaterfinals during Soulkey or Rain GSL runs. Don't get me wrong, I loved Losira mechanics or MyuNgSiK crazy builds, but I cite them to show that the caliber of today contender players is just crazy. You only need to see them play really: Innovation, TY, Classic, Stats, Trap, Dark, Rogue, etc. Defeating consistently these players during 4 GSL's in a row puts Maru above MVP. And Inno too. It's just my opinion, obviously.
I agree with you, the skill level of the players is now incredibly high. With time and refinement players become generally more skilled, both mechanichally and strategically; this shouldn't count in a GOAT discussion by the way, it's like saying Boxer is not a great player because the skill level was objectively lower when he was playing. Squirtle and the other WoL players who may now seem weak were top dogs in that game, with that meta; assuming Sc2 goes on for other ten years Maru's play could seem lacking to future observers.
The level you should be look at is relative to the scene: only three years ago the korean scene was so much deeper: potential Code S winners were going out in Code A, now half of the qualifiers are just a bye. Code S is still very competitive at the latest stages but the overall level of the competition is diminished(again, I'm not speaking of gaming performances, Maru in 2018 was most likely stronger than Zest in 2016).
On April 18 2019 03:09 ubikz wrote: I understand all the statements but I disagree with some of them. Opinions, I suppose XD. The popularity decline of Sc2 in Korea is a fact. There's less players in Korea playing the game, but right now the skill lvl of the pros is just crazy. The scene is saturated, the players know each other so well, and in such a context it's just incredible winning 4 consecutive GSL's. There's less players for sure, but the true contenders, the tier1 players, is and has always been a limited group of names. It hasn't changed at all. And nowadays these few players are just freaking good. That's why I put Maru and Inno too above MVP. I'm a huge MVP fan, but it's undeniable that the GSL's victories of Maru or Inno had more tight competitors. You can see players like TOP, San, July or TheStC in the top places during MVP GSL's victories.
When the korean Sc2 scene was healthier, for example during Soulkey or Rain GSL victories (2013 and 2015), the game was way more refined than in the early days. But then again, the real contenders were a limited group of names. Players like Curious, MyuNgSiK, KangHo/Losira or Symbol made the quaterfinals during Soulkey or Rain GSL runs. Don't get me wrong, I loved Losira mechanics or MyuNgSiK crazy builds, but I cite them to show that the caliber of today contender players is just crazy. You only need to see them play really: Innovation, TY, Classic, Stats, Trap, Dark, Rogue, etc. Defeating consistently these players during 4 GSL's in a row puts Maru above MVP. And Inno too. It's just my opinion, obviously.
I agree with you, the skill level of the players is now incredibly high. With time and refinement players become generally more skilled, both mechanichally and strategically; this shouldn't count in a GOAT discussion by the way, it's like saying Boxer is not a great player because the skill level was objectively lower when he was playing. Squirtle and the other WoL players who may now seem weak were top dogs in that game, with that meta; assuming Sc2 goes on for other ten years Maru's play could seem lacking to future observers.
The level you should be look at is relative to the scene: only three years ago the korean scene was so much deeper potential Code S winners were going out in Code A, now half of the qualifiers are just a bye. Code S is still very competitive at the latest stages but the overall level of the competition is diminished(again, I'm not speaking of gaming performances, Maru in 2018 was most likely stronger than Zest in 2016).
I get your point. The GOAT discussion is a difficult affair XD
On April 18 2019 03:09 ubikz wrote: I understand all the statements but I disagree with some of them. Opinions, I suppose XD. The popularity decline of Sc2 in Korea is a fact. There's less players in Korea playing the game, but right now the skill lvl of the pros is just crazy. The scene is saturated, the players know each other so well, and in such a context it's just incredible winning 4 consecutive GSL's. There's less players for sure, but the true contenders, the tier1 players, is and has always been a limited group of names. It hasn't changed at all. And nowadays these few players are just freaking good. That's why I put Maru and Inno too above MVP. I'm a huge MVP fan, but it's undeniable that the GSL's victories of Maru or Inno had more tight competitors. You can see players like TOP, San, July or TheStC in the top places during MVP GSL's victories.
When the korean Sc2 scene was healthier, for example during Soulkey or Rain GSL victories (2013 and 2015), the game was way more refined than in the early days. But then again, the real contenders were a limited group of names. Players like Curious, MyuNgSiK, KangHo/Losira or Symbol made the quaterfinals during Soulkey or Rain GSL runs. Don't get me wrong, I loved Losira mechanics or MyuNgSiK crazy builds, but I cite them to show that the caliber of today contender players is just crazy. You only need to see them play really: Innovation, TY, Classic, Stats, Trap, Dark, Rogue, etc. Defeating consistently these players during 4 GSL's in a row puts Maru above MVP. And Inno too. It's just my opinion, obviously.
Oh yes I forgot these names, they were even more good players these days, not championship contenders but guys who made the ro32 a dangerous thing. And Trap who got humiliated 4-0 in one of the fatest series ? He is only a good player but has never been a player of the same caliber as the other players mentionned. All the them were already very goods in 2015. I don't know how reducing the talent pool can increase the competitivity combined with loss of structure. Like you're not wrong, the contenders have always been in low numbers but today there is really not that much. You should see the old soO vs Zest, Taeja vs soO/Life/Zest/Inno, Life vs Dream/Inno/Maru, Dear vs Maru/Jaedong, Parting vs Flash, SK vs Inno ext, aside for the competitive aspect, it's really hard to say "hey, today they are crazy better". It was just a different game tbf.
What people constantly do is completely neglect maru's results before 2018 for some reason. He won SSL and OSL, two starleagues during a time where other players like zest didn't win more than that either. On top of that he had another 4 ro4 finishes in gsl and some ro8 finishes in starleagues (at least the ro4s one should absolutely take into consideration, ro8 arguably as well but to a lesser degree obviously) He got 2nd at IEM tapai and WESG 2016, had 3 ro4 finishes in 2013 s3 finals, hot6ix cup and blizzcon. Then add the proleague success to it and these feats alone are already an incredibly impressive career. I find it somewhat absurd to say there is a lot of recency bias going on under these circumstances, maru was one of the very best from 2013 onwards
What are the evidences for the ppl who are ignoring what Maru did between 2013-5-6 ? I don't see any posts like this. However I see post who are over evaluating his performance imo, he was not in the same tier as some others for sure. He was ranked 6th in the classment made by stuchiu, it seems fair even if the cluthness of sOs could have make him 6th too... (well, in this particular classement, I would swap Taeja/Inno and ranks SK/Classic highter but whatever).
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous.
Well, Maru is one of the few who rarely traveled to tournaments abroad and back then most of those tournaments had to be considered inferior to GSL by far. Also in 2013-15 Maru won two Starleagues of GSL calibre, gathered 6 top 4 and additional 6 top 8 finishes in premier events (GSLs and similar calibre) and placed 2nd in the stacked IEM Taipei (losing to Life in a nailbiting close final). And after his aquisition by JAGW he went on to be the top Proleague player for 3 seasons straight. He was one of the most dominant, feared and successful forces and probably the most consistent player of that time.
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
Funny enough, I'm still not sure if I can call Maru GOAT because other players have achieved great things, too.
Still, his only good weekender tournament is a final during this period, you can add his non wins in SSL/GSL to give density to your argument but it's not like others players didn't have good placement without winning nor it contradicts my point. As for PL, yes he did well for sure, as Flash, soO, Zest and others. But saying he was the most dominent just like the biggest name is wrong, Zest was considered as the best players of 2014 overall, Life in his prime created a feeling of awe that Maru never matched at this time (hots), the same can be said for Innovation. He was clearly behind. Even Taeja who is peirceved as a very overrated player for his unholy wins in foreign tournaments has been time to time considered as more impressive with stellar play and iconic games. (vs rain, inno, soO, zest, life ext)
That said, it's ok to think Maru was the most consistent, you bring facts (considering he sometimes failed in GSL/SLL, only the pl results are really worth it to prove his super consistency imo even if I think it is quite overrated, some players who did well in PL didn't bring much results while others who didn't did a lot) but this is just wrong :
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
You forgot the loss of the gaming house with the kespa training regime which benefited to a lot of players. Or maybe the loss of this unleashed their potential ? It's quite a fantasy world but ok.
As for the rise of the level, it has been stated by Snute and there is some true obviously for the foreigner scene because in contrary to the korean scene it received fresh blood and rising players, Showtime, Neeb, Serral, Reynor, Denver, Uthermal, ptitdrogo to name a few. While I think Snute has troubled to adapt to lotv and declined after reaching his heights in hots (quite a normal career), so it must be nuanced, I agree on the fact the foreigner scene is doing better but I have no clue how you can say the same for Korea without fresh blood and loss of important structures. (pl, gaming house) It is as you said, a delusional idea.
Maru was and has always been the best of his teammates in prep tournaments, it's quite logic he is the one who beneficits the most of it now. It is a massive structural advantage, ofc, some don't want to recognize it but it still is. It's always annoying when a maru fan or tbf, anyone is saying "Gsl is more competitive cuz players are getting older", they always forgot to mention the lack of new players, the loss of gaming houses, coaches and structures of the kespa teams as if it was meaningless for the competitivity of the game.
Moreover, my other argument is the loss of players without any replacement, there are no new super competitive players in Korea since a very long time while it lost a lot because of retierement, military, matchfixing scandal and so on : to name a few who were top players : herO (at his top in 2015), Soulkey, Rain, Life, Byul, Parting, Dream, MMA they were others very good ones who could beat anyone : Bbyong, Curious, Supernova, Sacsri, True, Hydra just to name of few... So, you're basically saying a gsl who would add this guy in competitive condition would be less competitive ? Adding more good players is making the tournament less competitive? Wtf is that... Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players, there are no more real groups of death (remember Life, flash, parting, innovation ?), the statement gsl is more competitive is clearly against basic logic.
Finally, we all know a 18 months retierement is big (at least I hope...) and still, Taeja managed to give Serral a lot troubles at the hsc, how is it possible for a player whose the skills are supposedly outdated ? So, winning a gsl today has not the same value than winning one between 2013-15-16. That's all.
You're misunderstanding my points. I don't say that losing players and teamhouse infrastructure isn't a bad thing for overall competition. But players don't become worse all of a sudden because of that. We still have a really healthy Code S in terms of players with great skill. As further you go in the tournament the less a difference can be seen to earlier years with bigger player pools. What I say is: the top players still have enough other top players to be on a really high level and to still improve their skill. Just remember the Code S win of Gumiho. He said, the main reason for his win was, that he finally focused on pure mechanics in order to be competitive on the very top. This shows that players still can improve. Of course, if teamhouses still existed, the overall improvement could be even higher but GSL is not becoming easier because of that.
I think you're romantisizing the old times. Ro32 of GSL almost never had groups of death and usually were easy to predict. Upsets happened, yes, but that's still the case. Why? Because competition in GSL is still that high that almost anybody can make an upset on a good day. I mean - just look at the most recent Ro32: Gumiho and Cure advanced over Stats, Bunny over Solar, washed-up herO over Scarlett, Impact over Fantasy and Leenock, Patience over Zest. It's just not true that "Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players" - it happens all the time!
Taeja giving Serral a hard time was probably due to Serral not adapting as fast to the new patch back then as he also barely won vs Bunny and Innovation. I mean, Taeja also lost to Ptitdrogo, Mana, Solar and Cure at HSC and still didn't manage to qualify for anything in 2019 (yeah yeah - it's really easy now to qualify for GSL, isn't it?).
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
Clownish statement, Go4Sc2 is not a Premier tournament unlike WCS(whose level was in 2018 relatively closer to Code S' compared to the past). This has nothing to share with the current thread, in any of case, and it's based on subjective assesments of the tournaments.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
Clownish statement, Go4Sc2 is not a Premier tournament unlike WCS(whose level was in 2018 relatively closer to Code S' compared to the past). This has nothing to share with the current thread, in any of case, and it's based on subjective assesments of the tournaments.
Why is it so important that a tournament has premier in its name? I don't think it's anymore "clownish" than you overvaluing WCS to a ridicolous degree.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
Clownish statement, Go4Sc2 is not a Premier tournament unlike WCS(whose level was in 2018 relatively closer to Code S' compared to the past). This has nothing to share with the current thread, in any of case, and it's based on subjective assesments of the tournaments.
Why is it so important that a tournament has premier in its name? I don't think it's anymore "clownish" than you overvaluing WCS to a ridicolous degree.
Maybe it's not that ridicolous? How do you explain Serral's Player of the Year award? You have different ideas, that's ok. Your last statement regarding Go4Sc2 indeed is absurd.
serral is in the top 10 or pretty close, Mvp is def above Life, but below Inno and Maru considering he didnt play as much as didnt have as many shots, its a toss up between Maru and Inno at this point.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
Clownish statement, Go4Sc2 is not a Premier tournament unlike WCS(whose level was in 2018 relatively closer to Code S' compared to the past). This has nothing to share with the current thread, in any of case, and it's based on subjective assesments of the tournaments.
Why is it so important that a tournament has premier in its name? I don't think it's anymore "clownish" than you overvaluing WCS to a ridicolous degree.
Maybe it's not that ridicolous? How do you explain Serral's Player of the Year award? You have different ideas, that's ok. Your last statement regarding Go4Sc2 indeed is absurd.
Actually I agree with Charoisaur, his example is fitting. You say WCS is closer to GSL than before and that is true, but it still very far behind.
Also for everyone chanting "but Serral is there and therefore the tournament is hard" mantra, yeah? Well if WCS is hard because it has Serral then it must be pretty damn easy for Serral since he IS Serral and wont meet himself in a bracket. Besides Serral we have Reynor, Neeb, Special and Scarlett. All of those are below the highest tier of korean players therefore WCS is much easier tournament than code S (just looking at the players that are competing and not even going into format). Serral being there or not being there doesn't make a tournament easier or harder for Serral to win because he is himself how hard is that to grasp, if you want to argue WCS tournaments that are equally hard for Serral to win as GSL code S than use the players that are there besides Serral.
Edit: The fact that all foreigners besides Scarlett(? I think it was her) choose WCS when Blizzard forced the foreign players to choose between WCS and GSL says a lot. The reason, they don't want to miss blizzcon and WCS is so much easier so its safer to get points there than being in GSL. I mean are you seriously saying WCS is comparable to a Code S?
On April 17 2019 07:13 Dangermousecatdog wrote: By that measure there is no such thing as GOAT as by that measure all men have failed.
MVP and Innovation have both performed well in GSL and weekenders.
And both men have standed at times of challenge is to fail. The challenge to win is one where every player in the world has failed at some point or another.
On April 18 2019 06:18 ubikz wrote: I sincerely ask: is the crazy 2018 of Serral, the domination he displayed, enough to put him above Taeja or Polt in the GOAT discussion?
Probably not, to me.
GOAT has to involve longevity at least to some degree, although you can weight it more or less.
On pure absolute level of play though Serral was insane in 2018, and still is really.
I like to look at other sports in looking at things I guess in this domain. Ronaldinho in football was insane for a period, a relatively short period and he fell off for various reasons.
So I think he’s absolutely relevant in ‘best players you’ve ever seen’ discussions, in terms of pure peak form, but it’s hard to make a GOAT argument for him vs say, Messi
Serral is a weird player in that he’s seemingly hugely overrated and underrated by a bunch of people simultaneously.
On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous.
Well, Maru is one of the few who rarely traveled to tournaments abroad and back then most of those tournaments had to be considered inferior to GSL by far. Also in 2013-15 Maru won two Starleagues of GSL calibre, gathered 6 top 4 and additional 6 top 8 finishes in premier events (GSLs and similar calibre) and placed 2nd in the stacked IEM Taipei (losing to Life in a nailbiting close final). And after his aquisition by JAGW he went on to be the top Proleague player for 3 seasons straight. He was one of the most dominant, feared and successful forces and probably the most consistent player of that time.
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
Funny enough, I'm still not sure if I can call Maru GOAT because other players have achieved great things, too.
Still, his only good weekender tournament is a final during this period, you can add his non wins in SSL/GSL to give density to your argument but it's not like others players didn't have good placement without winning nor it contradicts my point. As for PL, yes he did well for sure, as Flash, soO, Zest and others. But saying he was the most dominent just like the biggest name is wrong, Zest was considered as the best players of 2014 overall, Life in his prime created a feeling of awe that Maru never matched at this time (hots), the same can be said for Innovation. He was clearly behind. Even Taeja who is peirceved as a very overrated player for his unholy wins in foreign tournaments has been time to time considered as more impressive with stellar play and iconic games. (vs rain, inno, soO, zest, life ext)
That said, it's ok to think Maru was the most consistent, you bring facts (considering he sometimes failed in GSL/SLL, only the pl results are really worth it to prove his super consistency imo even if I think it is quite overrated, some players who did well in PL didn't bring much results while others who didn't did a lot) but this is just wrong :
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
You forgot the loss of the gaming house with the kespa training regime which benefited to a lot of players. Or maybe the loss of this unleashed their potential ? It's quite a fantasy world but ok.
As for the rise of the level, it has been stated by Snute and there is some true obviously for the foreigner scene because in contrary to the korean scene it received fresh blood and rising players, Showtime, Neeb, Serral, Reynor, Denver, Uthermal, ptitdrogo to name a few. While I think Snute has troubled to adapt to lotv and declined after reaching his heights in hots (quite a normal career), so it must be nuanced, I agree on the fact the foreigner scene is doing better but I have no clue how you can say the same for Korea without fresh blood and loss of important structures. (pl, gaming house) It is as you said, a delusional idea.
Maru was and has always been the best of his teammates in prep tournaments, it's quite logic he is the one who beneficits the most of it now. It is a massive structural advantage, ofc, some don't want to recognize it but it still is. It's always annoying when a maru fan or tbf, anyone is saying "Gsl is more competitive cuz players are getting older", they always forgot to mention the lack of new players, the loss of gaming houses, coaches and structures of the kespa teams as if it was meaningless for the competitivity of the game.
Moreover, my other argument is the loss of players without any replacement, there are no new super competitive players in Korea since a very long time while it lost a lot because of retierement, military, matchfixing scandal and so on : to name a few who were top players : herO (at his top in 2015), Soulkey, Rain, Life, Byul, Parting, Dream, MMA they were others very good ones who could beat anyone : Bbyong, Curious, Supernova, Sacsri, True, Hydra just to name of few... So, you're basically saying a gsl who would add this guy in competitive condition would be less competitive ? Adding more good players is making the tournament less competitive? Wtf is that... Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players, there are no more real groups of death (remember Life, flash, parting, innovation ?), the statement gsl is more competitive is clearly against basic logic.
Finally, we all know a 18 months retierement is big (at least I hope...) and still, Taeja managed to give Serral a lot troubles at the hsc, how is it possible for a player whose the skills are supposedly outdated ? So, winning a gsl today has not the same value than winning one between 2013-15-16. That's all.
You're misunderstanding my points. I don't say that losing players and teamhouse infrastructure isn't a bad thing for overall competition. But players don't become worse all of a sudden because of that. We still have a really healthy Code S in terms of players with great skill. As further you go in the tournament the less a difference can be seen to earlier years with bigger player pools. What I say is: the top players still have enough other top players to be on a really high level and to still improve their skill. Just remember the Code S win of Gumiho. He said, the main reason for his win was, that he finally focused on pure mechanics in order to be competitive on the very top. This shows that players still can improve. Of course, if teamhouses still existed, the overall improvement could be even higher but GSL is not becoming easier because of that.
I think you're romantisizing the old times. Ro32 of GSL almost never had groups of death and usually were easy to predict. Upsets happened, yes, but that's still the case. Why? Because competition in GSL is still that high that almost anybody can make an upset on a good day. I mean - just look at the most recent Ro32: Gumiho and Cure advanced over Stats, Bunny over Solar, washed-up herO over Scarlett, Impact over Fantasy and Leenock, Patience over Zest. It's just not true that "Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players" - it happens all the time!
Taeja giving Serral a hard time was probably due to Serral not adapting as fast to the new patch back then as he also barely won vs Bunny and Innovation. I mean, Taeja also lost to Ptitdrogo, Mana, Solar and Cure at HSC and still didn't manage to qualify for anything in 2019 (yeah yeah - it's really easy now to qualify for GSL, isn't it?).
You're saying it is deluded to think the gsl is less competitive nowadays, I am saying it is deluded to think it isn't, I don't miss your point at all, then you're talking about skill increase/decrease which is not the same thing with the exemple of Gumiho who didn't do much in the period I mentionned before skyrocking as one of the best in 2017...
As for the degree of difficulty to qualify in GSL, it depends obviously but Noegrets managed to qualify and it was not pretty, maybe you're telling me he is on the same level as the guys I mentionned ?
And for the other examples stated, thanks for providing me some upsets (for herO, it' debeatable, he did a good run at katowice and Scarlett is not that consistent, same goes for impact vs fantasy), it happens for sure (thanks to MC, a dude from the old gard...) but is the elimination of TY and herO (who was in his best period) in the ro32 of the GSL season 2 code S 2015 an upset considering the winners are Byul/Maru ? Nop and this situation was not rare, it didn't happen all the time ofc but a super good player being eliminated in ro32 could be considered as normal as the group was really stacked.
Btw, Life in the GSL season 3 in 2014 was in code A (so, below Noregrets in 2017... Just saying that is funny), he won wcs world, made a dominant run in DH winter before winning GSL/iem taipei and ro4 in ssl after an epic match against Dream. The competition was so stacked, way more than today.
Finally Serral is not adapting... It's strange, now you try to find excuse for a non-korean... Btw, while Bunny gave him trouble in the groupstage, he 3-0 him by quite a margin in the bracket, despite a very bad start in game 1, he won without much trouble, it was nothing like against Taeja with super tense and amazing games.
Maybe I am romantisizing the old times (would be weird, my best time in sc2 was when Stephano was at his peak) but for sure there is some strong biais toward the current period. To my perception, it's as if Fantasy (backed by a team) was dominating the current BW scene and was called bonjwa for it.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
Clownish statement, Go4Sc2 is not a Premier tournament unlike WCS(whose level was in 2018 relatively closer to Code S' compared to the past). This has nothing to share with the current thread, in any of case, and it's based on subjective assesments of the tournaments.
Another wrong and ridiculous statement. Seriously Aren't you a troll? Do you seriously think that wcs with Polt, MC, Hydra, MMA, Bomber, Hyun, Stardust, Stephano, even Inno/MVP was worse then this farce we have now?
Before region lock WCS was actually a quality tournament, still much lesser then code S, but the region lock just made it completely insignificant in comparison.
Only WCS player who can play on pat with good Koreans is Serral. And yes, there is less good Koreans as before and the foreigners are better, but they are still a milion miles off.
And that Serral nonsense is just icing on the cake. From the top of my head I can name 20 Koreans who are still above Serral in the GOAT ranking. Serral has 1 tier1 title, 1 tier 2 and 1 WESG final which I don't know where to place, probably tier 3. Then he has 4 tier dumpster titles which are completely insignificant if you really want to look for the greatest player of all time.
On April 17 2019 03:41 Elentos wrote: I'm pretty sure poll threads aren't tolerated on TL?
just came here to collect some salty tear for my awful oatmeal breakfast and was not disappointed also i would like to give cookies for noonius and EJ despite both are claiming terran is OP because maru making SCVs but! choosing to silence is an act of real men in this kind of situation shame on you xei0n...the point of arguing was never meant to satisfy oneself. otherwise the battle 's lost before the start
Maru is most likely the goat, winning four GSLs in a row is absolutely bonkers. But has any player defined the game like MVP? I still remember that gamebreaking match on Metalopolis; it was vs some OGS terran, I think Hyperdub or thebest, where he double expanded, and thus practically invented the terran macro game! He is the father of halt the terran strats out there! Maru is winning more, but for me MVP is on his very own pedestal.
On April 18 2019 09:30 kyllinghest wrote: Maru is most likely the goat, winning four GSLs in a row is absolutely bonkers. But has any player defined the game like MVP? I still remember that gamebreaking match on Metalopolis; it was vs some OGS terran, I think Hyperdub or thebest, where he double expanded, and thus practically invented the terran macro game! He is the father of halt the terran strats out there! Maru is winning more, but for me MVP is on his very own pedestal.
I mean its a lot more likely that the great players from the first year are two of the game are the ones that are going to define and change matchups rather than the great players when the game is 9 years old
On April 18 2019 06:18 ubikz wrote: I sincerely ask: is the crazy 2018 of Serral, the domination he displayed, enough to put him above Taeja or Polt in the GOAT discussion?
Not at all. Serral isn't even top 15 in the all-time GOATs imo. He has a lot of potential though given his age and how much he's already pulled off in just a year. Strongest factor going for Serral is that he's shown some of the greatest consistency we've seen from a player. His greatest failing is he doesn't have the same longevity as some of the other top GOATs, nor has he ever attempted GSL which is the ultimate proving ground.
Even Taeja, who's frequently criticized for not doing enough in Korea, still made several deep runs in the GSL. Not to mention he's won way more than Serral abroad. Granted, he never quite captured something as big as a Blizzcon and there's no denying Serral's Blizzcon win was legit against nothing but tough competition the whole way.
As for Polt, he's won a similar number of WCS (when they were tougher) to Serral but he's also a GSL champ with numerous other high placings over the years. He remained relevant and won things in every sc2 iteration.
Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
Wow, calm down guys. Some people here (not especially you, xainon and Valm) are somewhat aggressive. Please step a bit back from your perspective. Given the data, I think it is perfectly fine to argue for Maru as GOAT or not as GOAT or perhaps as GOAT. It's really not easy. Please be fair: xain0n nowhere brought Serral into the GOAT discussion nor did he put WCS on the same level as Code S. I also think he's wrong but it's not that he's grasping weird ideas out of thin air. There is a reason why we have this poll and this discussion after all - probably because it's arguable.
If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
he lacks of some other biggest wins outside of GSL, his dominance in Korea and GSL league is undisputed but to be claim GOAT you need to bring absolutely dominance for the entire sc2 scene which Maru is still not succeed
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling.
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling.
yeha, what an asshole, he just calls premiers tournaments premier tournaments, while he should you use your weighing system of tournaments to judge players and form opinions. As should everybody else as well, of course!
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling.
yeha, what an asshole, he just calls premiers tournaments premier tournaments, while he should you use your weighing system of tournaments to judge players and form opinions. As should everybody else as well, of course!
While I agree that expecting others to just have the same subjective opinion as you isn't reasonable. His opinion really is if you break it down.
5 premier tournaments have finished so far this year, wcs america, wcs europa, GSL s1, WESG and IEM.
WCS EU top16: Namshar, Mana, Hateme, Uthermal, Dns, Hellraiser, Harstem, Gunfubanda, Serral, Reynor, Heromarine, Ptitdrogo, Elazer, Lambo, Showtime and Rail
But equal premier titles right, lets just count premier titles and what could go wrong?
Seriously you joked about it Xain0n but I would put Olimoleague as the harder tournament to win compared to the farce that is WCS EU. Its not even close lookup the players competing in Olimoleague it blows wcs eu out of the water, that wcs is a premier tournament doesn't make it worth shit.
Edit: I'm talking in the context of goat here, ofc winning wcs matters but winning one or three doesn't take you even a step closer to goat, olimoleague should matter more imo. Serral isn't even top 15.
On April 18 2019 14:21 Morbidius wrote: If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
Is there a maru fanboy's fantasy world ? When you say gsl is less competitive with arguments, it becomes "gsl is a shits show". What a poor way to refute an argument. Well, don't know what I can add, let's say you're right, gsl is the best cuz there are the letters gsl and gsl has never changed nor evolved ever cuz... Whatever, it's gsl right ? And Maru is the best cuz you like him and go trolling every thread with serral cuz he is foreigner.
Face the fact (and oh boy it's gonna hurt), 1 victory in weekender tournament in a +8 years carrer.
On April 18 2019 14:21 Morbidius wrote: If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
Is there a maru fanboy's fantasy world ? When you say gsl is less competitive with arguments, it becomes "gsl is a shits show". What a poor way to refute an argument. Well, don't know what I can add, let's say you're right, gsl is the best cuz there are the letters gsl and gsl has never changed nor evolved ever cuz... Whatever, it's gsl right ? And Maru is the best cuz you like him and go trolling every thread with serral cuz he is foreigner.
Face the fact (and oh boy it's gonna hurt), 1 victory in weekender tournament in a +8 years carrer.
The players that failed to qualify into the latest ro32 gsl. Dream, MC, Bunny, Taeja, Losira, Bomber, Kas, Sortof and Bratok. Pretty decent list of good players that is todays code A, its not like just anyone can just get into ro32 GSL.
Lets be real the players above could probably still go and make a RO8-RO4 finish in either of the WCS events. It might have gotten "easier" to get into the ro32 of GSL than it has been before BUT how hard it is to get into GSL doesn't matter for the ruling champ. The competitiveness of GSL ro16 is not easier than it has been before, its still basically the best players in the world duking it out, its not easier for Maru to make consecutive championships today than it was for say Rain, Dear or MVP. It just so happens Maru is the only player that managed to do it four times in a row, if you want to throw dirty words around and make personal attacks in posters instead of arguing actual points I can join in. You Maru hater, stop finding any excuse to write his achivements off as lesser just because you personally aren't a fan.
On April 18 2019 14:21 Morbidius wrote: If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
Is there a maru fanboy's fantasy world ? When you say gsl is less competitive with arguments, it becomes "gsl is a shits show". What a poor way to refute an argument. Well, don't know what I can add, let's say you're right, gsl is the best cuz there are the letters gsl and gsl has never changed nor evolved ever cuz... Whatever, it's gsl right ? And Maru is the best cuz you like him and go trolling every thread with serral cuz he is foreigner.
Face the fact (and oh boy it's gonna hurt), 1 victory in weekender tournament in a +8 years carrer.
Maru has 2 weekender wins, face the facts, champ. (I bet you're ignoring Asian Games)
But because he doesn't have enough weekenders it proves exactly what? GSL is superior to any tournament in the current system because it has the hardest qualification and the best players in there. If Blizzcon had foreigner-Koreans ratio more reflecting this we could have been discussing Blizzcon to it too(but then again, winning a WCS/Code S at the start of the year and locking yourself into a tournament while you can become bad...). IEM is closely second(and had the Europe - Korea connection would have been better it would have surpassed Code S IMO).
On April 18 2019 14:21 Morbidius wrote: If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
Is there a maru fanboy's fantasy world ? When you say gsl is less competitive with arguments, it becomes "gsl is a shits show". What a poor way to refute an argument. Well, don't know what I can add, let's say you're right, gsl is the best cuz there are the letters gsl and gsl has never changed nor evolved ever cuz... Whatever, it's gsl right ? And Maru is the best cuz you like him and go trolling every thread with serral cuz he is foreigner.
Face the fact (and oh boy it's gonna hurt), 1 victory in weekender tournament in a +8 years carrer.
Maru has 2 weekender wins, face the facts, champ. (I bet you're ignoring Asian Games)
But because he doesn't have enough weekenders it proves exactly what? GSL is superior to any tournament in the current system because it has the hardest qualification and the best players in there. If Blizzcon had foreigner-Koreans ratio more reflecting this we could have been discussing Blizzcon to it too(but then again, winning a WCS/Code S at the start of the year and locking yourself into a tournament while you can become bad...). IEM is closely second(and had the Europe - Korea connection would have been better it would have surpassed Code S IMO).
BTW Serral's career is 7 years long, jsut FYI for funzies.
This narrow victory over the great BBoongBBoong is not a premier, try again fan. It proves he is bad in a very important format in sc2,bad relative to others which is quite important for the supposed goat, you don't want to see it but it's a fact. As for Blizzcons or other tournaments, I actually see the runs made by the players rather than declaring unholy it with foreigner presence. And Serral is not part of the discussion, I don't want to deal with your obsession.
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling.
yeha, what an asshole, he just calls premiers tournaments premier tournaments, while he should you use your weighing system of tournaments to judge players and form opinions. As should everybody else as well, of course!
Never would call him an Ahole I don't know the guy... He is massively deluded though, or a troll.
So there are what 20 1st (premiere) football (soccer) leagues in Europe. All of them are ''premiere'' so in the best football club in history ranking I just count the titles of Dinamo Zagreb, Sparta Prague and Manchester United. What an awesome ranking I would get :D
Very similar principle. This is not something subjective its an objective truth. Now of course you are entitled to have your own opinion which is different from the objective truth, but it doesn't mean it's a good one. Most of the time its a dumb one, like his ranking system, like considering Taeja GOAT of Sc2, like claiming WCS has more quality and is closer to code S then before and I can continue.
Ok, let's wrap it up a bit in order to get at least some common ground and to slow down a little bit the harshness here.
Arguments brought for Maru being GOAT: - very consistent with many Ro8 and Ro4 finishes over the years and extremely good Proleague record (especially Season 2016) - more starleague titles than anyone else (6 - Inno is the closest with 4) - 4 GSLs in a row which is an feat of consistent greatness never seen before (nobody but Nestea managed to win even 2 GSLs back to back - in a time when we had 7 (!) GSLs a year compared to only 3 nowadays) and which shows that Maru is capable of staying on the very top trough multiple patches and varying phases of metagame
Arguments brought for Maru being pretty sure not GOAT: - the mere number of wins in premier events is lacking behind other players like Taeja, Life, MVP and Innovation - only one win in a weekender tournament which makes people question if Maru's skillset is just very specified for only one type of competition - his 4 back to back GSL-titles are interrupted by in some cases severe losses in other tournaments (being beaten by Stats in Ro4 of GSL vs the Word, being beaten by sOs twice in Ro8s, not making it out of groupstage of IEM, "only" getting 3rd in a not really stacked WESG)
Arguments brought for Maru being on par with other contenders for the GOAT-title: - Life and Inno may have more championships and have proven theirselves on almost any stage possible which gives them an advantage in this discussion - but Maru's consistency over the years is unmatched by Life and Inno who had some serious downs - also Maru's feat of 4 GSLs in a row is a sign of dominance over a long timeframe nobody else has achieved even by half which makes Maru catching up
I didn't include the "GSLs in 2013-2015 were more competitive and therefore harder" because there is no way to prove that and several arguments are opposing this view (Pros and Pro-Casters stating otherwise; the very top still being equally competitive; players not magically getting worse all of a sudden although still practising as much; LotV being mechanically more demanding).
I think the question is, which of the mentioned factors one weighs more than the others. I can understand all of the arguments made to some extend. This is probably why I opted for the boring middleground-option ("not sure but he has a claim"). I think Maru=GOAT sayers are undervaluing the very tough weekenders which do exist (like IEM, earlier Blizzcons and some other really stacked weekenders) and are partially overvaluing the preparation format as a greater test of skill rather than as a test of another skillset. At the same time I think that the Maru≠GOAT sayers are overvaluing quite some of the lesser weekenders and aren't grasping the insaneness of winning GSL 4 times in a row.
On April 18 2019 14:21 Morbidius wrote: If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
Is there a maru fanboy's fantasy world ? When you say gsl is less competitive with arguments, it becomes "gsl is a shits show". What a poor way to refute an argument. Well, don't know what I can add, let's say you're right, gsl is the best cuz there are the letters gsl and gsl has never changed nor evolved ever cuz... Whatever, it's gsl right ? And Maru is the best cuz you like him and go trolling every thread with serral cuz he is foreigner.
Face the fact (and oh boy it's gonna hurt), 1 victory in weekender tournament in a +8 years carrer.
Maru has 2 weekender wins, face the facts, champ. (I bet you're ignoring Asian Games)
But because he doesn't have enough weekenders it proves exactly what? GSL is superior to any tournament in the current system because it has the hardest qualification and the best players in there. If Blizzcon had foreigner-Koreans ratio more reflecting this we could have been discussing Blizzcon to it too(but then again, winning a WCS/Code S at the start of the year and locking yourself into a tournament while you can become bad...). IEM is closely second(and had the Europe - Korea connection would have been better it would have surpassed Code S IMO).
BTW Serral's career is 7 years long, jsut FYI for funzies.
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT
Not the best example. If he could prepare for anyone in this tournament, it's Stats. It was the first game, it was announced in time, and he's been practicing TvP anyways for the last 3 rounds of GSL code S, and he has been killing it.
If he would have lost in the 2nd round or the 3rd round, to whoever, say Gumiho or Dark then yeah, it's an "excuse", he couldnt prepare for his opponent and for that MU. He could prepare TvP and could prepare for Stats.
Now i couldnt watch the games sadly, so im not commenting on them before i catch up, but pointing out, that it's not the "weekender" style that got him here.
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT
Did you jsut spoil the super tournament for me? I was gonna watch that when i got home form work. DAMN YOU lol
It was always a risk hanging out in this thread today anyway.
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT
Not the best example. If he could prepare for anyone in this tournament, it's Stats. It was the first game, it was announced in time, and he's been practicing TvP anyways for the last 3 rounds of GSL code S, and he has been killing it.
If he would have lost in the 2nd round or the 3rd round, to whoever, say Gumiho or Dark then yeah, it's an "excuse", he couldnt prepare for his opponent and for that MU. He could prepare TvP and could prepare for Stats.
Now i couldnt watch the games sadly, so im not commenting on them before i catch up, but pointing out, that it's not the "weekender" style that got him here.
Championship hangover more likely
He played great, the game 4 is really a must watch.
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling.
yeha, what an asshole, he just calls premiers tournaments premier tournaments, while he should you use your weighing system of tournaments to judge players and form opinions. As should everybody else as well, of course!
Never would call him an Ahole I don't know the guy... He is massively deluded though, or a troll.
So there are what 20 1st (premiere) football (soccer) leagues in Europe. All of them are ''premiere'' so in the best football club in history ranking I just count the titles of Dinamo Zagreb, Sparta Prague and Manchester United. What an awesome ranking I would get :D
Very similar principle. This is not something subjective its an objective truth. Now of course you are entitled to have your own opinion which is different from the objective truth, but it doesn't mean it's a good one. Most of the time its a dumb one, like his ranking system, like considering Taeja GOAT of Sc2, like claiming WCS has more quality and is closer to code S then before and I can continue.
Mmm, I never said a single time I considered TaeJa GOAT, I already told that is a list and not a weighted ranking: it is meant to inform, not to rate.
Your example couldn't be more wrong, football championships are rated in a clear way by UEFA(so that harder leagues like Premier or Serie A have many more spots in Champions and Europa League; even Golden Foot is affected by that, goals count differently depending from the league the were scored in); we can safely know Rangers Glasgow titles don't count as much as Real Madrid's as Scottish Premier League's rating is inferior to La Liga's.
That you call me deluded is ironic after all your nonsense about weekly korean tournaments who pay out hundreds of dollars at best being superior to non korean Premier leagues.
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling.
yeha, what an asshole, he just calls premiers tournaments premier tournaments, while he should you use your weighing system of tournaments to judge players and form opinions. As should everybody else as well, of course!
Never would call him an Ahole I don't know the guy... He is massively deluded though, or a troll.
So there are what 20 1st (premiere) football (soccer) leagues in Europe. All of them are ''premiere'' so in the best football club in history ranking I just count the titles of Dinamo Zagreb, Sparta Prague and Manchester United. What an awesome ranking I would get :D
Very similar principle. This is not something subjective its an objective truth. Now of course you are entitled to have your own opinion which is different from the objective truth, but it doesn't mean it's a good one. Most of the time its a dumb one, like his ranking system, like considering Taeja GOAT of Sc2, like claiming WCS has more quality and is closer to code S then before and I can continue.
Mmm, I never said a single time I considered TaeJa GOAT, I already told that is a list and not a weighted ranking: it is meant to inform, not to rate.
Your example couldn't be more wrong, football championships are rated in a clear way by UEFA(so that harder leagues like Premier or Serie A have many more spots in Champions and Europa League; even Golden Foot is affected by that, goals count differently depending from the league the were scored in); we can safely know Rangers Glasgow titles don't count as much as Real Madrid's as Scottish Premier League's rating is inferior to La Liga's.
That you call me deluded is ironic after all your nonsense about weekly korean tournaments who pay out hundreds of dollars at best being superior to non korean Premier leagues.
Taeja is still my favourite ever SC2 player but yeah, he ain't the greatest. He was just good for his time and played alot of entertaining games - as well as achieving lots of all-kills in BO1 team tournaments and other stuff that's great to watch.
On April 18 2019 19:04 Harris1st wrote: Wow this thread is toxic!
Regarding the poll (though it may not be phrased very well)
We have 263 votes for Maru is GOAT and 293 votes of ppl think he is not there (yet) 24 votes think Maru is absolutely NOT Goat.
Pretty close if you ask me
Just for information: in what regard is the poll not phrased very well?
3 of the possible answers are very similar / the same and are just there to divide the votes (even if unintentional) And ofc the bit trolling with Cheesadelphia But that's just my take
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT
Like he couldn't prepare for an opponent when he had 4 free days to prepare? This doesn't make sense, he knew who he's facing and he had the time, this just disproves what you wrote. He lost a game he could have prepared for... at least use something that makes sense, not failing at the only match in the weekend tourney you have the time to prepare for >< OMG
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT
Like he couldn't prepare for an opponent when he had 4 free days to prepare? This doesn't make sense, he knew who he's facing and he had the time, this just disproves what you wrote. He lost a game he could have prepared for... at least use something that makes sense, not failing at the only match in the weekend tourney you have the time to prepare for >< OMG
Oh so, he even lost in a prepared match ? You bring super good arguments in order to prove Maru is the best for sure.
You cannot, however, be a bonjwa and drop out of ro16 right after winning your first tournament of the year(out of three).
On April 18 2019 19:04 Harris1st wrote: Wow this thread is toxic!
Regarding the poll (though it may not be phrased very well)
We have 263 votes for Maru is GOAT and 293 votes of ppl think he is not there (yet) 24 votes think Maru is absolutely NOT Goat.
Pretty close if you ask me
Just for information: in what regard is the poll not phrased very well?
3 of the possible answers are very similar / the same and are just there to divide the votes (even if unintentional) And ofc the bit trolling with Cheesadelphia But that's just my take
Well, I think there is a difference between "absolutely not" (= not even close), "he needs to win some more trophies" (= let him win a bit more and we can talk about it) and "not sure, but he has a claim" (= can't decide, he's probably on par with others). Well and the Cheesadelphia obviously was to make this a fun thing
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT
Like he couldn't prepare for an opponent when he had 4 free days to prepare? This doesn't make sense, he knew who he's facing and he had the time, this just disproves what you wrote. He lost a game he could have prepared for... at least use something that makes sense, not failing at the only match in the weekend tourney you have the time to prepare for >< OMG
Oh so, he even lost in a prepared match ? You bring super good arguments in order to prove Maru is the best for sure.
Well just because Deacon does quite like Maru doesn’t mean every post is to defend Maru
I agree with his point, it’s a bad argument to say Maru loses at weekenders because he can’t prep, and use as an example the match he knew about before the tournament. If your first game is guaranteed against Stats, outside of Gumigod the rest of the tourney is P and Z, you’re probably wise to be in good shape vP
Plus this tournament has a small pool of players and a bracket set in advance, some weekenders are way more volatile with round robin feeding into brackets, or double elim brackets or whatever.
Anyway Maru lost a tight series vs Stats, who is pretty bloody good last I checked. No shame in that I don’t think it means that much in the wider scheme of things.
On April 18 2019 21:41 Wombat_NI wrote: Well just because Deacon does quite like Maru doesn’t mean every post is to defend Maru
I agree with his point, it’s a bad argument to say Maru loses at weekenders because he can’t prep, and use as an example the match he knew about before the tournament. If your first game is guaranteed against Stats, outside of Gumigod the rest of the tourney is P and Z, you’re probably wise to be in good shape vP
Plus this tournament has a small pool of players and a bracket set in advance, some weekenders are way more volatile with round robin feeding into brackets, or double elim brackets or whatever.
Anyway Maru lost a tight series vs Stats, who is pretty bloody good last I checked. No shame in that I don’t think it means that much in the wider scheme of things.
THis is the opposite of what I was saying. I was saying he is better at GSLs because he is good at prep - which is less of a factor in weekenders.
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT
Like he couldn't prepare for an opponent when he had 4 free days to prepare? This doesn't make sense, he knew who he's facing and he had the time, this just disproves what you wrote. He lost a game he could have prepared for... at least use something that makes sense, not failing at the only match in the weekend tourney you have the time to prepare for >< OMG
Oh so, he even lost in a prepared match ? You bring super good arguments in order to prove Maru is the best for sure.
You cannot, however, be a bonjwa and drop out of ro16 right after winning your first tournament of the year(out of three).
Tbf, B-word has never be used in sc2.
I see people calling Maru GOAT and bonjwa nevertheless.
Yeah they’re just wrong, least on the bonjwa stuff.
Serral’s come closest IMO and he’s still miles away. If you swapped out one of those WCS wins for a GSL, and he won one or both of IEM/WESG, and won last WCS, maybe
Over a year of winning everything or close to it, plus winning a GSL. So both a longer winning span and a higher level tournament would maybe suffice.
At least for me the bonjwa benchmark is pretty high and borderline impossible to hit.
I only say Serral has come closest before people jump on me because he hit the benchmark of ‘winning everything’ for a period, not that his 2018 is necessarily more impressive than the achievements of others.
On April 18 2019 21:41 Wombat_NI wrote: Well just because Deacon does quite like Maru doesn’t mean every post is to defend Maru
I agree with his point, it’s a bad argument to say Maru loses at weekenders because he can’t prep, and use as an example the match he knew about before the tournament. If your first game is guaranteed against Stats, outside of Gumigod the rest of the tourney is P and Z, you’re probably wise to be in good shape vP
Plus this tournament has a small pool of players and a bracket set in advance, some weekenders are way more volatile with round robin feeding into brackets, or double elim brackets or whatever.
Anyway Maru lost a tight series vs Stats, who is pretty bloody good last I checked. No shame in that I don’t think it means that much in the wider scheme of things.
THis is the opposite of what I was saying. I was saying he is better at GSLs because he is good at prep - which is less of a factor in weekenders.
I mean true, I wasn’t responding to you, maybe I should use the quote function better.
I was saying it’s a bad argument to say Maru is bad at weekenders because lack of prep, and use the Stats game as more evidence, presumably the match he was able to prep for. So just echoing deacon really.
I agree I think weekenders test different skills and are super important, I recall too having the same arguments re Taeja lacking a GSL, albeit in the opposite direction.
Well i dont want to take anything from Maru, but with the power of the gls winner at group selection he makes ridiculously easy group for himself every time while creating group of deaths. He lost to Bunny in Ro16 and Impact almost eliminated him What would have happened if he is in a group death instead?
On April 18 2019 23:05 kajtarp wrote: Well i dont want to take anything from Maru, but with the power of the gls winner at group selection he makes ridiculously easy group for himself every time while creating group of deaths. He lost to Bunny in Ro16 and Impact almost eliminated him What would have happened if he is in a group death instead?
I said this in another thread. I worked out the average rank of his opponent for this code S based on korean players rankings from Aligulac and his opponent was an average rank of 15.X (can't remember exactly). It makes his job WAY easier in my mind, its essentially 2 easy picked groups then 3 actual games for a GSL
Hes been really impressive in his decision making etc and he has great prep but i think his team support him a lot with that?
To me this makes him hard to place, Hes defo the best Terran but i am not sure about the best overall player
Nah, not even close. Gets good results in decaying GSL, but practically falls apart in any other format. Lets see if he can beat Serral first, who is the current one.
On April 19 2019 08:46 Starcloud wrote: Nah, not even close. Gets good results in decaying GSL, but practically falls apart in any other format. Lets see if he can beat Serral first, who is the current one.
Glad Serral is the goat after winning Homestory Cup and Blizzcon
On April 19 2019 08:46 Starcloud wrote: Nah, not even close. Gets good results in decaying GSL, but practically falls apart in any other format. Lets see if he can beat Serral first, who is the current one.
decaying GSL? Beat Serral first? In which universe do you live in?
You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever.
As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta.
I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates.
But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread)
Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it.
On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever.
As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta.
I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates.
But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread)
Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it.
Nah, region lock is the reason behind the rise of foreigners. Current top players' skill at playing the game cannot be doubted, Serral has nothing to do with the lack of depth in korean scene; I am convinced Code S was harder to win in the past as qualifiers and groupstages were much more stacked, but at the highest level(top 8) Code S certainly isn't easier than before. Downselling Serral is indeed devaluating Maru's legacy; you cannot be GOAT with just one year so Serral is far from being that, but it's not like he won because koreans suddenly became weak, his victories in 2018 are legit.
On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever.
As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta.
I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates.
But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread)
Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it.
Nah, region lock is the reason behind the rise of foreigners. Current top players' skill at playing the game cannot be doubted, Serral has nothing to do with the lack of depth in korean scene; I am convinced Code S was harder to win in the past as qualifiers and groupstages were much more stacked, but at the highest level(top 8) Code S certainly isn't easier than before. Downselling Serral is indeed devaluating Maru's legacy; you cannot be GOAT with just one year so Serral is far from being that, but it's not like he won because koreans suddenly became weak, his victories in 2018 are legit.
What weakness there is in the Korean scene isn’t quality, it’s depth, indeed.
What Korea used to have over foreigners was that B/C grade Koreans could win foreign tournaments. The best foreigners couldn’t compete with the best Koreans. Which gradually changed over time to what we have today.
Code S hasn’t really changed all that much, there have always been players who are peaking just to qualify, those who might have a shot at winning it, and those who might have a good run to the Ro16/8
In terms of people who you’d consider able to actually win a Code S, it’s the same people really and they’re still there.
Serral has just improved his play to the level to compete with the best of Code S consistently, those guys haven’t got worse.
The level of play itself hasn’t dropped and Code S doesn’t need that many good players for that level to remain consistent. The difference is that it’s not the time where without hyperbole one could think the top fifty players in the world were Korean, and as a foreigner even qualifying for Ro32 was a huge gamble considering you had to move out to Korea for a while etc.
On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever.
As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta.
I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates.
But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread)
Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it.
I don't Believe that whats going on here is recency bias, tell me what other player has historically won four consecutive GSL code Ss. What other feat has been done that rivals it? There simply is none, its not that it has been done Before but I forgot or for some reasons Marus run looks more magical than it is because its recent, if I'm wrong then tell me, what player has done what Maru has done?
Excuses like recency bias just makes it seem like you are using any argument you can to devalue the opnions of those that doesn't agree with you.
Ever Heard of rosy retrospection? Could also be called nostaliga bias, maybe thats why some people don't realize Marus the goat./s
I do get the argument that Maru has underperformed in weekender tournaments during his reign and that that is an argument why hisspot at the top hasn't really been cemented. What I don't get is why his past failures Before his 2018 run would make him less great, just because he has had a long career where he didn't dominate right away that doesn't make him less great than if a genius would have come, walked the roay road 2018 and had the same results.
At the end o MVPs career he was losing to foreigners in wcs, that didn't make him any less goat. I consider Maru goat already and that he has been knocked out by Stats and teammates multipletimes does make his position weaker but its not like he has been playing horribly. (besides iem)
On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever.
As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta.
I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates.
But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread)
Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it.
I don't Believe that whats going on here is recency bias, tell me what other player has historically won four consecutive GSL code Ss. What other feat has been done that rivals it? There simply is none, its not that it has been done Before but I forgot or for some reasons Marus run looks more magical than it is because its recent, if I'm wrong then tell me, what player has done what Maru has done?
Excuses like recency bias just makes it seem like you are using any argument you can to devalue the opnions of those that doesn't agree with you.
Ever Heard of rosy retrospection? Could also be called nostaliga bias, maybe thats why some people don't realize Marus the goat./s
I do get the argument that Maru has underperformed in weekender tournaments during his reign and that that is an argument why hisspot at the top hasn't really been cemented. What I don't get is why his past failures Before his 2018 run would make him less great, just because he has had a long career where he didn't dominate right away that doesn't make him less great than if a genius would have come, walked the roay road 2018 and had the same results.
At the end o MVPs career he was losing to foreigners in wcs, that didn't make him any less goat. I consider Maru goat already and that he has been knocked out by Stats and teammates multipletimes does make his position weaker but its not like he has been playing horribly. (besides iem)
When you state you need to perform currently in order to be a goat, it's for sure a massive recency biais and as I will repeat myself, the time I enjoyed the most sc2 was in 2011, hots was infested with protoss. Btw, I actually deliver other arguments but countering all I said by "rosy retrospection" is not great. And I knew the french term but not the english one, thanks I guess.
Gsl is not what it was. Some of you seems to have a fetish over those letters but Gsl is changing, evolving because there is always a context around it, a scene with players and structures. Winning it in 2010 is different than doing it in 2011 or today. This tournament is relative to the korean scene wealth.
Aside blizzcon, it still is the best tournament for the players, prestige because koreans are still largely dominants. But the korean scene has suffered numerous blows. For god sake, a foreigner has been winning the wcs world, another a kespa cup and why ? Because Korean scene is losing players, gaming houses, teams, is region locked. Is it rosy retrospection to state it or is it fact ? Cuz he really looks like the latter to me. I don't know what the benefice is to ignore it unless you absolutely want to make Maru the goat. You might say I overrate these factors but it seems like while every maru/gsl fans are lamenting about the end of pl, kespa team, region lock, they refuse to acknowledge any of its effects.
And as a result, we're seeing other foreigners than serral/neeb producing results who would have been considered as miraculous before and now it's considered at best as a surprise. Is that rosy retrospection ? Tell someone after Lilbow/Life or Nani/sk a foreigner is gonna won the blizzcon, none would have believed it without considering some blows against the korean scene. The poor foreigners at the time, they were getting crushed by korean in their own wcs, some of them could actually compete in Korea (calling MMA/Taeja b tier would be stupid) but overall, they were a bit below and still... In those 3 years, 2 foreigners entered and got beaten. Nowaday, the best koreans of their respective races are not necesseraly favorite, depending the mu. (in zvz, it might be 50/50 between the 3 great korean zergs soO, Dark, Rogue and serral I suppose), when did that happen before the region lock ? That's an interesting question but I think only Stephano in zvp came close from 2011-15 (2010 is a bit special but my point is still relevant I guess)
What other feat rivals that? I don't know, getting 4 times in final in a way more competitive area ? Consistently winning tournaments ? Dominating a game with a larger talent pool maybe ? Well, you can think he is the best, that's ok after all but it's really not as clear.
He didn't dominated right away while he was already at the top of his game because the game was more competitive and it was impossible to dominate it as he does today for anyone.
Mvp's failures came at the end of career not while he was playing its best and had to adapt to another game. That's the major difference. And failure is relative, sure it was for him but for a guy who was at the twilight of his career with all his problems, he crushed Stephano (who was still the best foreigner at least in zvp/t on wcs eu s1 2013) and gave prime Inno a run for his money, that's not that bad even if yeah, he was a shadow of his former self. Lol, I feel weird defending a guy I always cheered against, who's next, sOs ?
On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever.
As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta.
I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates.
But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread)
Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it.
I don't Believe that whats going on here is recency bias, tell me what other player has historically won four consecutive GSL code Ss. What other feat has been done that rivals it? There simply is none, its not that it has been done Before but I forgot or for some reasons Marus run looks more magical than it is because its recent, if I'm wrong then tell me, what player has done what Maru has done?
Excuses like recency bias just makes it seem like you are using any argument you can to devalue the opnions of those that doesn't agree with you.
Ever Heard of rosy retrospection? Could also be called nostaliga bias, maybe thats why some people don't realize Marus the goat./s
I do get the argument that Maru has underperformed in weekender tournaments during his reign and that that is an argument why hisspot at the top hasn't really been cemented. What I don't get is why his past failures Before his 2018 run would make him less great, just because he has had a long career where he didn't dominate right away that doesn't make him less great than if a genius would have come, walked the roay road 2018 and had the same results.
At the end o MVPs career he was losing to foreigners in wcs, that didn't make him any less goat. I consider Maru goat already and that he has been knocked out by Stats and teammates multipletimes does make his position weaker but its not like he has been playing horribly. (besides iem)
When you state you need to perform currently in order to be a goat, it's for sure a massive recency biais and as I will repeat myself, the time I enjoyed the most sc2 was in 2011, hots was infested with protoss. Btw, I actually deliver other arguments but countering all I said by "rosy retrospection" is not great. And I knew the french term but not the english one, thanks I guess.
Gsl is not what it was. Some of you seems to have a fetish over those letters but Gsl is changing, evolving because there is always a context around it, a scene with players and structures. Winning it in 2010 is different than doing it in 2011 or today. This tournament is relative to the korean scene wealth.
Aside blizzcon, it still is the best tournament for the players, prestige because koreans are still largely dominants. But the korean scene has suffered numerous blows. For god sake, a foreigner has been winning the wcs world, another a kespa cup and why ? Because Korean scene is losing players, gaming houses, teams, is region locked. Is it rosy retrospection to state it or is it fact ? Cuz he really looks like the latter to me. I don't know what the benefice is to ignore it unless you absolutely want to make Maru the goat. You might say I overrate these factors but it seems like while every maru/gsl fans are lamenting about the end of pl, kespa team, region lock, they refuse to acknowledge any of its effects.
And as a result, we're seeing other foreigners than serral/neeb producing results who would have been considered as miraculous before and now it's considered at best as a surprise. Is that rosy retrospection ? Tell someone after Lilbow/Life or Nani/sk a foreigner is gonna won the blizzcon, none would have believed it without considering some blows against the korean scene. The poor foreigners at the time, they were getting crushed by korean in their own wcs, some of them could actually compete in Korea (calling MMA/Taeja b tier would be stupid) but overall, they were a bit below and still... In those 3 years, 2 foreigners entered and got beaten. Nowaday, the best koreans of their respective are not necesseraly favorite (it's 50/50 between the 3 great korean zergs ad serral I suppose), when did that happen before the region lock ? That's an interesting question but I think only Stephano in zvp came close from 2011-15 (2010 is a bit special but my point is still relevant I guess)
What other feat rivals that? I don't know, getting 4 times in final in a way more competitive area ? Consistently winning tournaments ? Dominating a game with a larger talent pool maybe ? Well, you can think he is the best, that's ok after all but it's really not as clear.
He didn't dominated right away while he was already at the top of his game because the game was more competitive and it was impossible to dominate it as he does today for anyone.
Mvp's failures came at the end of career not while he was playing its best and had to adapt to another game. That's the major difference. And failure is relative, sure it was for him but for a guy who was at the twilight of his career with all his problems, he crushed Stephano (who was still the best foreigner at least in zvp/t on wcs eu s1 2013) and gave prime Inno a run for his money, that's not that bad even if yeah, he was a shadow of his former self. Lol, I feel weird defending a guy I always cheered against, who's next, sOs ?
I agree with most of the things you say. During beta and very early WoL foreigners were around(or considered to be) approximately 50-50 against korean but it never happened afterwards before region lock(you are underestimating Serral's odds against top korean Zerg in your example)
However, do you think top pros magically crumbled in less than one year(from BlizzCon 2015 when Lilbow got roflstomped to 2016 when Showtime 2-0d the eventual champion Byun in the groupstages)? Legacy of the Void partially reset the skill cap and region lock allowed foreigners to grow; meanwhile, korean scene became thinner and thinner(that's why Code S was harder in the past) but the skill level at the top surely didn't decline.
Maru is not bonjwa nor GOAT(yet, at least) but he is one hell of a player whose mechanichal prowess is simply undeniable, you cannot look at his games and say the opposite without lying; the same could be stated of Serral, have you watched his immaculate defense and his wicked multitasking?
Foreignerland produced serious high level players who had to compete a lower amount of skilled koreans, definitely not koreans who had less skill than their predecessors(or their own earlier version), to win their titles.
Foreigners just got better, at least the very best, take names off a VoD or replay and have people watch Serral, or Neeb
I can pretty much guarantee the only people who will be able to tell the difference, are the people who already know enough about the game to tell people that those players are up there in pure gameplay with S class Koreans.
Stephano was really the last foreigner I had the feeling that he was at that level of equivalent play, rather than one who could maybe snipe a few good Koreans here or there. He didn't push it on and went to do other things with his life, there was a period where his strategical insight and mechanics for the time had him legit up at the top table, most observers if nothing else at the time felt at least his ZvP was outright just the best in the scene.
As hyped as it was for example, Nani's GSL run was Nani (a real prep player btw) scraping through players who were not the absolute elite of Code S, and losing to Mvp one he ran into one.
Dunno why anyone is making a big deal out of Maru losing in the RO16 to Stats. Stats was knocked out of Code S immediately, Maru just won Code S. Now which player do you think was practicing harder for this match? Stats needed to show something here. Was an amazing series and honestly all we could ask for on the opening match of Super Tournament.
On April 20 2019 01:00 Moonerz wrote: Dunno why anyone is making a big deal out of Maru losing in the RO16 to Stats. Stats was knocked out of Code S immediately, Maru just won Code S. Now which player do you think was practicing harder for this match? Stats needed to show something here. Was an amazing series and honestly all we could ask for on the opening match of Super Tournament.
Well it's the patern, and Maru was comming off 3 straight weeks of tvp practice where he was looking untouchable (altought it also mean he probably showed a lot of his build) and he had just a couple less day that Stats to practice since they got the bracket like a week before.
And yes the series was great, probably the best of ST so far, but it's yet another time Maru wasn't able transpose his GSL dominance in another tournament. And of course there's no shame losing to Stats, but when talking about the greatest to ever touch the keyboard, these losses count.
I don't read too much into losing to Stats, he's pretty bloody good and no player has really avoided losing the odd tournament or going on longer slumps, so I wouldn't hold it against Maru.
It does get irksome when his worst fanboys always come up with some kind of excuse for him any time he loses though, it also indirectly discredits anyone who ever beats him.
On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever.
As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta.
I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates.
But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread)
Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it.
I don't Believe that whats going on here is recency bias, tell me what other player has historically won four consecutive GSL code Ss. What other feat has been done that rivals it? There simply is none, its not that it has been done Before but I forgot or for some reasons Marus run looks more magical than it is because its recent, if I'm wrong then tell me, what player has done what Maru has done?
Excuses like recency bias just makes it seem like you are using any argument you can to devalue the opnions of those that doesn't agree with you.
Ever Heard of rosy retrospection? Could also be called nostaliga bias, maybe thats why some people don't realize Marus the goat./s
I do get the argument that Maru has underperformed in weekender tournaments during his reign and that that is an argument why hisspot at the top hasn't really been cemented. What I don't get is why his past failures Before his 2018 run would make him less great, just because he has had a long career where he didn't dominate right away that doesn't make him less great than if a genius would have come, walked the roay road 2018 and had the same results.
At the end o MVPs career he was losing to foreigners in wcs, that didn't make him any less goat. I consider Maru goat already and that he has been knocked out by Stats and teammates multipletimes does make his position weaker but its not like he has been playing horribly. (besides iem)
When you state you need to perform currently in order to be a goat, it's for sure a massive recency biais and as I will repeat myself, the time I enjoyed the most sc2 was in 2011, hots was infested with protoss. Btw, I actually deliver other arguments but countering all I said by "rosy retrospection" is not great. And I knew the french term but not the english one, thanks I guess.
Gsl is not what it was. Some of you seems to have a fetish over those letters but Gsl is changing, evolving because there is always a context around it, a scene with players and structures. Winning it in 2010 is different than doing it in 2011 or today. This tournament is relative to the korean scene wealth.
Aside blizzcon, it still is the best tournament for the players, prestige because koreans are still largely dominants. But the korean scene has suffered numerous blows. For god sake, a foreigner has been winning the wcs world, another a kespa cup and why ? Because Korean scene is losing players, gaming houses, teams, is region locked. Is it rosy retrospection to state it or is it fact ? Cuz he really looks like the latter to me. I don't know what the benefice is to ignore it unless you absolutely want to make Maru the goat. You might say I overrate these factors but it seems like while every maru/gsl fans are lamenting about the end of pl, kespa team, region lock, they refuse to acknowledge any of its effects.
And as a result, we're seeing other foreigners than serral/neeb producing results who would have been considered as miraculous before and now it's considered at best as a surprise. Is that rosy retrospection ? Tell someone after Lilbow/Life or Nani/sk a foreigner is gonna won the blizzcon, none would have believed it without considering some blows against the korean scene. The poor foreigners at the time, they were getting crushed by korean in their own wcs, some of them could actually compete in Korea (calling MMA/Taeja b tier would be stupid) but overall, they were a bit below and still... In those 3 years, 2 foreigners entered and got beaten. Nowaday, the best koreans of their respective races are not necesseraly favorite, depending the mu. (in zvz, it might be 50/50 between the 3 great korean zergs soO, Dark, Rogue and serral I suppose), when did that happen before the region lock ? That's an interesting question but I think only Stephano in zvp came close from 2011-15 (2010 is a bit special but my point is still relevant I guess)
What other feat rivals that? I don't know, getting 4 times in final in a way more competitive area ? Consistently winning tournaments ? Dominating a game with a larger talent pool maybe ? Well, you can think he is the best, that's ok after all but it's really not as clear.
He didn't dominated right away while he was already at the top of his game because the game was more competitive and it was impossible to dominate it as he does today for anyone.
Mvp's failures came at the end of career not while he was playing its best and had to adapt to another game. That's the major difference. And failure is relative, sure it was for him but for a guy who was at the twilight of his career with all his problems, he crushed Stephano (who was still the best foreigner at least in zvp/t on wcs eu s1 2013) and gave prime Inno a run for his money, that's not that bad even if yeah, he was a shadow of his former self. Lol, I feel weird defending a guy I always cheered against, who's next, sOs ?
I never wrote you need to be be currently performing great to be goat o_o what are you even talking about, making things up now?
Yes your argument about recency bias was the only thing I replied to because it was the only real argument you brought. You write you made a lot of other Points but you really didn't, you had some tangent about player x and z making miracle runs, how the past was better and so on. Nothing to really argue with here, if you want me to answer you then make Points to discuss around. Your post was basically just a long tangent.
As to your current post wow you need to work on your self awareness. You say Maru fans are victims of recency bias, I call BS on that and satirically make the statement that your opinion is devalued due to rosy retrospection and you explode…..
Was I right, is that why you read my upfront /s satire and reply as if it was a serious allegation with various levels of defense. My whole Point is lets NOT devalue eachothers opinion and actually agree that everyone has their own opinion and that is fine. You keep discussing why your opinion is valid and right while everyone that disagrees with you are wrong since we are victims of recency bias, stop being toxic and accept that your opinion isn't right and neither is mine they are just opinions.
I disagree that the past code Ss werer harder, I Think most of your arguments are invalid and wrong. As I've said multiple times, the highest level of code S the RO16 is equally hard today as it was Before. The champion is Always seeded so any code S champion have had equal chance to do what Maru has done. That the pool is shallow actually doesn't effect the difficulty of this feat at all. So here we are, you Believe the past was this Amazing time when Everything was 10x times harder and more Amazing than today and I disagree, lets leave it at that.
On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever.
As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta.
I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates.
But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread)
Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it.
I don't Believe that whats going on here is recency bias, tell me what other player has historically won four consecutive GSL code Ss. What other feat has been done that rivals it? There simply is none, its not that it has been done Before but I forgot or for some reasons Marus run looks more magical than it is because its recent, if I'm wrong then tell me, what player has done what Maru has done?
Excuses like recency bias just makes it seem like you are using any argument you can to devalue the opnions of those that doesn't agree with you.
Ever Heard of rosy retrospection? Could also be called nostaliga bias, maybe thats why some people don't realize Marus the goat./s
I do get the argument that Maru has underperformed in weekender tournaments during his reign and that that is an argument why hisspot at the top hasn't really been cemented. What I don't get is why his past failures Before his 2018 run would make him less great, just because he has had a long career where he didn't dominate right away that doesn't make him less great than if a genius would have come, walked the roay road 2018 and had the same results.
At the end o MVPs career he was losing to foreigners in wcs, that didn't make him any less goat. I consider Maru goat already and that he has been knocked out by Stats and teammates multipletimes does make his position weaker but its not like he has been playing horribly. (besides iem)
When you state you need to perform currently in order to be a goat, it's for sure a massive recency biais and as I will repeat myself, the time I enjoyed the most sc2 was in 2011, hots was infested with protoss. Btw, I actually deliver other arguments but countering all I said by "rosy retrospection" is not great. And I knew the french term but not the english one, thanks I guess.
Gsl is not what it was. Some of you seems to have a fetish over those letters but Gsl is changing, evolving because there is always a context around it, a scene with players and structures. Winning it in 2010 is different than doing it in 2011 or today. This tournament is relative to the korean scene wealth.
Aside blizzcon, it still is the best tournament for the players, prestige because koreans are still largely dominants. But the korean scene has suffered numerous blows. For god sake, a foreigner has been winning the wcs world, another a kespa cup and why ? Because Korean scene is losing players, gaming houses, teams, is region locked. Is it rosy retrospection to state it or is it fact ? Cuz he really looks like the latter to me. I don't know what the benefice is to ignore it unless you absolutely want to make Maru the goat. You might say I overrate these factors but it seems like while every maru/gsl fans are lamenting about the end of pl, kespa team, region lock, they refuse to acknowledge any of its effects.
And as a result, we're seeing other foreigners than serral/neeb producing results who would have been considered as miraculous before and now it's considered at best as a surprise. Is that rosy retrospection ? Tell someone after Lilbow/Life or Nani/sk a foreigner is gonna won the blizzcon, none would have believed it without considering some blows against the korean scene. The poor foreigners at the time, they were getting crushed by korean in their own wcs, some of them could actually compete in Korea (calling MMA/Taeja b tier would be stupid) but overall, they were a bit below and still... In those 3 years, 2 foreigners entered and got beaten. Nowaday, the best koreans of their respective races are not necesseraly favorite, depending the mu. (in zvz, it might be 50/50 between the 3 great korean zergs soO, Dark, Rogue and serral I suppose), when did that happen before the region lock ? That's an interesting question but I think only Stephano in zvp came close from 2011-15 (2010 is a bit special but my point is still relevant I guess)
What other feat rivals that? I don't know, getting 4 times in final in a way more competitive area ? Consistently winning tournaments ? Dominating a game with a larger talent pool maybe ? Well, you can think he is the best, that's ok after all but it's really not as clear.
He didn't dominated right away while he was already at the top of his game because the game was more competitive and it was impossible to dominate it as he does today for anyone.
Mvp's failures came at the end of career not while he was playing its best and had to adapt to another game. That's the major difference. And failure is relative, sure it was for him but for a guy who was at the twilight of his career with all his problems, he crushed Stephano (who was still the best foreigner at least in zvp/t on wcs eu s1 2013) and gave prime Inno a run for his money, that's not that bad even if yeah, he was a shadow of his former self. Lol, I feel weird defending a guy I always cheered against, who's next, sOs ?
I never wrote you need to be be currently performing great to be goat o_o what are you even talking about, making things up now?
Yes your argument about recency bias was the only thing I replied to because it was the only real argument you brought. You write you made a lot of other Points but you really didn't, you had some tangent about player x and z making miracle runs, how the past was better and so on. Nothing to really argue with here, if you want me to answer you then make Points to discuss around. Your post was basically just a long tangent.
As to your current post wow you need to work on your self awareness. You say Maru fans are victims of recency bias, I call BS on that and satirically make the statement that your opinion is devalued due to rosy retrospection and you explode…..
Was I right, is that why you read my upfront /s satire and reply as if it was a serious allegation with various levels of defense. My whole Point is lets NOT devalue eachothers opinion and actually agree that everyone has their own opinion and that is fine. You keep discussing why your opinion is valid and right while everyone that disagrees with you are wrong since we are victims of recency bias, stop being toxic and accept that your opinion isn't right and neither is mine they are just opinions.
I disagree that the past code Ss werer harder, I Think most of your arguments are invalid and wrong. As I've said multiple times, the highest level of code S the RO16 is equally hard today as it was Before. The champion is Always seeded so any code S champion have had equal chance to do what Maru has done. That the pool is shallow actually doesn't effect the difficulty of this feat at all. So here we are, you Believe the past was this Amazing time when Everything was 10x times harder and more Amazing than today and I disagree, lets leave it at that.
You twisted my post so much it's not even funny. The recency biais might be an explanation why you're wrong but I don't base my argument of that. I am toxic because I disagree with you and you're offering no counter point and straight up say it's wrong while I just stated facts you refuse address (or you just said it doesn't matter, whatever) and summarize it by recency biais, yes sure. Btw, considering how are acting the maru's fans (hard to say a majority but they are vocals for sure) on some threads, I don't think you're legimate for called someone toxic, but whatever. I have nothing to add.
On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever.
As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta.
I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates.
But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread)
Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it.
I don't Believe that whats going on here is recency bias, tell me what other player has historically won four consecutive GSL code Ss. What other feat has been done that rivals it? There simply is none, its not that it has been done Before but I forgot or for some reasons Marus run looks more magical than it is because its recent, if I'm wrong then tell me, what player has done what Maru has done?
Excuses like recency bias just makes it seem like you are using any argument you can to devalue the opnions of those that doesn't agree with you.
Ever Heard of rosy retrospection? Could also be called nostaliga bias, maybe thats why some people don't realize Marus the goat./s
I do get the argument that Maru has underperformed in weekender tournaments during his reign and that that is an argument why hisspot at the top hasn't really been cemented. What I don't get is why his past failures Before his 2018 run would make him less great, just because he has had a long career where he didn't dominate right away that doesn't make him less great than if a genius would have come, walked the roay road 2018 and had the same results.
At the end o MVPs career he was losing to foreigners in wcs, that didn't make him any less goat. I consider Maru goat already and that he has been knocked out by Stats and teammates multipletimes does make his position weaker but its not like he has been playing horribly. (besides iem)
When you state you need to perform currently in order to be a goat, it's for sure a massive recency biais and as I will repeat myself, the time I enjoyed the most sc2 was in 2011, hots was infested with protoss. Btw, I actually deliver other arguments but countering all I said by "rosy retrospection" is not great. And I knew the french term but not the english one, thanks I guess.
Gsl is not what it was. Some of you seems to have a fetish over those letters but Gsl is changing, evolving because there is always a context around it, a scene with players and structures. Winning it in 2010 is different than doing it in 2011 or today. This tournament is relative to the korean scene wealth.
Aside blizzcon, it still is the best tournament for the players, prestige because koreans are still largely dominants. But the korean scene has suffered numerous blows. For god sake, a foreigner has been winning the wcs world, another a kespa cup and why ? Because Korean scene is losing players, gaming houses, teams, is region locked. Is it rosy retrospection to state it or is it fact ? Cuz he really looks like the latter to me. I don't know what the benefice is to ignore it unless you absolutely want to make Maru the goat. You might say I overrate these factors but it seems like while every maru/gsl fans are lamenting about the end of pl, kespa team, region lock, they refuse to acknowledge any of its effects.
And as a result, we're seeing other foreigners than serral/neeb producing results who would have been considered as miraculous before and now it's considered at best as a surprise. Is that rosy retrospection ? Tell someone after Lilbow/Life or Nani/sk a foreigner is gonna won the blizzcon, none would have believed it without considering some blows against the korean scene. The poor foreigners at the time, they were getting crushed by korean in their own wcs, some of them could actually compete in Korea (calling MMA/Taeja b tier would be stupid) but overall, they were a bit below and still... In those 3 years, 2 foreigners entered and got beaten. Nowaday, the best koreans of their respective races are not necesseraly favorite, depending the mu. (in zvz, it might be 50/50 between the 3 great korean zergs soO, Dark, Rogue and serral I suppose), when did that happen before the region lock ? That's an interesting question but I think only Stephano in zvp came close from 2011-15 (2010 is a bit special but my point is still relevant I guess)
What other feat rivals that? I don't know, getting 4 times in final in a way more competitive area ? Consistently winning tournaments ? Dominating a game with a larger talent pool maybe ? Well, you can think he is the best, that's ok after all but it's really not as clear.
He didn't dominated right away while he was already at the top of his game because the game was more competitive and it was impossible to dominate it as he does today for anyone.
Mvp's failures came at the end of career not while he was playing its best and had to adapt to another game. That's the major difference. And failure is relative, sure it was for him but for a guy who was at the twilight of his career with all his problems, he crushed Stephano (who was still the best foreigner at least in zvp/t on wcs eu s1 2013) and gave prime Inno a run for his money, that's not that bad even if yeah, he was a shadow of his former self. Lol, I feel weird defending a guy I always cheered against, who's next, sOs ?
I never wrote you need to be be currently performing great to be goat o_o what are you even talking about, making things up now?
Yes your argument about recency bias was the only thing I replied to because it was the only real argument you brought. You write you made a lot of other Points but you really didn't, you had some tangent about player x and z making miracle runs, how the past was better and so on. Nothing to really argue with here, if you want me to answer you then make Points to discuss around. Your post was basically just a long tangent.
As to your current post wow you need to work on your self awareness. You say Maru fans are victims of recency bias, I call BS on that and satirically make the statement that your opinion is devalued due to rosy retrospection and you explode…..
Was I right, is that why you read my upfront /s satire and reply as if it was a serious allegation with various levels of defense. My whole Point is lets NOT devalue eachothers opinion and actually agree that everyone has their own opinion and that is fine. You keep discussing why your opinion is valid and right while everyone that disagrees with you are wrong since we are victims of recency bias, stop being toxic and accept that your opinion isn't right and neither is mine they are just opinions.
I disagree that the past code Ss werer harder, I Think most of your arguments are invalid and wrong. As I've said multiple times, the highest level of code S the RO16 is equally hard today as it was Before. The champion is Always seeded so any code S champion have had equal chance to do what Maru has done. That the pool is shallow actually doesn't effect the difficulty of this feat at all. So here we are, you Believe the past was this Amazing time when Everything was 10x times harder and more Amazing than today and I disagree, lets leave it at that.
You twisted my post so much it's not even funny. The recency biais might be an explanation why you're wrong but I don't base my argument of that. I am toxic because I disagree with you and you're offering no counter point and straight up say it's wrong while I just stated facts you refuse address (or you just said it doesn't matter, whatever) and summarize it by recency biais, yes sure. Btw, considering how are acting the maru's fans (hard to say a majority but they are vocals for sure) on some threads, I don't think you're legimate for called someone toxic, but whatever. I have nothing to add.
You are toxic because you keep devaluing the opinions of those that disagrees with you by saying we are merely victims of recency bias. You are not toxic for disagreeing with me, I dont Care what your opinion is as Long as you can discuss things in a civil maner. IF you actually have any arguments then bring them.
On April 19 2019 21:47 Tchado wrote: If he becomes the first ever X5 winner , and he did it back to back.....that will prove it 100%.
No it won't. Nobody doubts Maru's ability to win GSL. There is nothing meaningful about winning five times that wasn't achieved by winning it four times. Or three times, really. Maru winning every GSL of 2018 was every bit of the unparalleled, legendary achievement it was touted as. That's not why people are questioning his status. And any achievement that doesn't address the legitimate criticism of his results isn't going to convince anyone.
On April 19 2019 21:47 Tchado wrote: If he becomes the first ever X5 winner , and he did it back to back.....that will prove it 100%.
No it won't. Nobody doubts Maru's ability to win GSL. There is nothing meaningful about winning five times that wasn't achieved by winning it four times. Or three times, really. Maru winning every GSL of 2018 was every bit of the unparalleled, legendary achievement it was touted as. That's not why people are questioning his status. And any achievement that doesn't address the legitimate criticism of his results isn't going to convince anyone.
I recall back in the mists of time when Rafael Nadal was god on clay, he was missing grand slams on other surfaces, to be considered a GOAT contender rather than the best clay court player ever, people felt he had to put in those results elsewhere.
Even if he’d won 12 French Opens, that was more of what he’d already done and didn’t answer the questions people had to begin with.
So yeah I don’t think it matters if Maru wins another GSL all that much, he’s already got the crazy GSL record.
If he tears up the weekenders in 2019 that’s way more relevant in filling holes than just adding to a stomping ground people accept as his already.
lets not avoid the balance when talking about goat contenders tho dude like life,mary... etc winning champions while others race fellows just got dumpstered could make thier tournament wins much moar valuable than others it also spices up this thread even moar cuz i dont think its fucked up enough
On April 20 2019 06:56 seemsgood wrote: lets not avoid the balance when talking about goat contenders tho dude like life,mary... etc winning champions while others race fellows just got dumpstered could make thier tournament wins much moar valuable than others it also spices up this thread even moar cuz i dont think its fucked up enough
Also true, although speaking of spice hasn’t Terran been UP since GomTvT for some people? :p
1) Of course there's something meaningful if Maru wins a 5th time, rather than just four times. The more he wins the toughest tournament in the world, the more consistency and longevity there is to his legacy. What he's done is unprecedented, not to mention the manner and style in which he does it.
2) I think his performance outside of GSL is greatly exaggerated.
WESG 2016 - 2nd place, only losing to TY in close 3-4 series WESG 2017- Won it WESG 2018 - 3rd place IEM XII - Top 4 2018 GSL vs the world - Top 4, losing to Stats 2018 Blizzcon - He looked good until he got murdered by sOs, but it was probably the worst track to the finals he could've gotten. IEM XIII - Ok he didn't make it out of his group. It wasn't good lol
His performance outside of GSL has not been horrendous by any means. Plenty of amazing players have the same type of issue. soo won iEM and Innovation won WESG, yet they both failed to get out of their groups and into the quarterfinals of the latest GSL. There are so many competitions and plenty of skilled opponents for one person to get 1st place in everything.
3) As a general aside to discussions of bonjwa or GOAT in sc2... Let's not forget that this is much harder in sc2 than in BW. While BW has remained mostly unchanged, sc2 has gone through a number of significant expansions, patch changes, etc... Players have to worry not only about meta changes and people adapting to their playstyles, but also to patch changes that may drastically alter every single match up that is played. This makes it much more difficult to remain on top over longer periods of time.
On April 20 2019 06:56 seemsgood wrote: lets not avoid the balance when talking about goat contenders tho dude like life,mary... etc winning champions while others race fellows just got dumpstered could make thier tournament wins much moar valuable than others it also spices up this thread even moar cuz i dont think its fucked up enough
Also true, although speaking of spice hasn’t Terran been UP since GomTvT for some people? :p
but best terrans after that era did also survive the brood infes era so it becomes neutral to me oh wait! i think i just figured out Mvp is a undisputed goat cuz blood infes was totally horseshit and dude handicapped himself with a broken arm like fucking sekiro and yet he still managed to win Mvp is da goat! suck it serral fans! i mean u xein0n !
There are two answers to this question in my opinion.
Is Maru the greatest of all time in the GSL? Without question. No one has neared the level of dominance in the GSL for such an extended period of time. Maru's complete and utter dominance in the GSL is historic, and can hardly even be debated.
Is Maru the greatest of all time, period?
Well, this is where it gets a little questionable. In weekend tournaments, Maru's results have been practically lackluster. A year ago, Maru placed 3-4th at IEM Katowice. 2 weeks later, he won WESG 2017. If he had kept this level of dominance in weekend tournaments since then, Maru would be without question the greatest player of all time.
However, he hasn't. A month later, he dropped in the Ro8 of Super Tournament 1. Another very respectable result came at GSL vs. The World in a semifinals finish, but he then went back to the round of 8 for ST2. The big one, though, came at Blizzcon, which we all know is the most important tournament of the year. Maru yet again dropped in the Ro8 of a major weekend tournament, and notably, for the second time in a month and a half to sOs, who while a **VERY** solid player, should not be taking out Maru with any level of consistency, even if they are teammates. Then, in his most disappointing finish yet, he failed to even make it out of the group stages of Katowice 2019.
Granted, he did come back to take third place at WESG 2018 shortly after Katowice, showing that he is at least still capable of deep runs in weekend tournaments. However, to be firmly considered the greatest of all time, dropping in the ro8 to sOs twice followed by getting knocked out in the group stages of Katowice simply cannot happen.
So my final answer to the question, is Maru the greatest of all time, period?
Maybe.
As it always has been in StarCraft 2, it just isn't possible to say for sure.
EDIT: Completely and absolutely forgot that he's already dropped in the ro16 of 2019 ST1. Still doesn't change my answer though.
On April 20 2019 06:56 seemsgood wrote: lets not avoid the balance when talking about goat contenders tho dude like life,mary... etc winning champions while others race fellows just got dumpstered could make thier tournament wins much moar valuable than others it also spices up this thread even moar cuz i dont think its fucked up enough
Also true, although speaking of spice hasn’t Terran been UP since GomTvT for some people? :p
but best terrans after that era did also survive the brood infes era so it becomes neutral to me oh wait! i think i just figured out Mvp is a undisputed goat cuz blood infes was totally horseshit and dude handicapped himself with a broken arm like fucking sekiro and yet he still managed to win Mvp is da goat! suck it serral fans! i mean u xein0n !
I guess you didn't follow all of my posts, did you? Never said Serral is a contention for GOAT(he's around top 10, to me), I have just(as usual) remarked how good he is and how dominant he was last year. I am a big fan of Mvp, he could very well be GOAT.
On April 19 2019 21:47 Tchado wrote: If he becomes the first ever X5 winner , and he did it back to back.....that will prove it 100%.
No it won't. Nobody doubts Maru's ability to win GSL. There is nothing meaningful about winning five times that wasn't achieved by winning it four times. Or three times, really. Maru winning every GSL of 2018 was every bit of the unparalleled, legendary achievement it was touted as. That's not why people are questioning his status. And any achievement that doesn't address the legitimate criticism of his results isn't going to convince anyone.
I recall back in the mists of time when Rafael Nadal was god on clay, he was missing grand slams on other surfaces, to be considered a GOAT contender rather than the best clay court player ever, people felt he had to put in those results elsewhere.
Even if he’d won 12 French Opens, that was more of what he’d already done and didn’t answer the questions people had to begin with.
So yeah I don’t think it matters if Maru wins another GSL all that much, he’s already got the crazy GSL record.
If he tears up the weekenders in 2019 that’s way more relevant in filling holes than just adding to a stomping ground people accept as his already.
That is a cool analogy!
So if Maru = Nadal, guess it's pretty clear he is not GOAT
On April 23 2019 21:51 Soularion wrote: He needs to win some weekenders (or at least go deep in them) first. He's the GSL GOAT but he isn't there yet outside of it.
He alrealdy did that. I already posted this in another thread:
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +
WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner.
But you probably meant "he has to win/go deep at more weekenders than he did so far".
On April 23 2019 21:51 Soularion wrote: He needs to win some weekenders (or at least go deep in them) first. He's the GSL GOAT but he isn't there yet outside of it.
He alrealdy did that. I already posted this in another thread:
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +
WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner.
But you probably meant "he has to win/go deep at more weekenders than he did so far".
These are far from GOAT-tier placements, though. Three finals in 6 years, one championship. Not exactly a star-studded lineup. Plus he's routinely failed at the biggest of them (Global Finals, Super Tournament/KeSPA Cup, IEM Katowice).
He needs either one Global Finals championship or multiple IEM Katowice/Super Tournament tier championships to be the GOAT, imo.
On April 23 2019 21:51 Soularion wrote: He needs to win some weekenders (or at least go deep in them) first. He's the GSL GOAT but he isn't there yet outside of it.
He alrealdy did that. I already posted this in another thread:
On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote: [quote]
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +
WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner.
But you probably meant "he has to win/go deep at more weekenders than he did so far".
Plus he's routinely failed at the biggest of them (Global Finals, Super Tournament/KeSPA Cup, IEM Katowice).
On April 23 2019 21:51 Soularion wrote: He needs to win some weekenders (or at least go deep in them) first. He's the GSL GOAT but he isn't there yet outside of it.
He alrealdy did that. I already posted this in another thread:
On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote: [quote]
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote: [quote]
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +
WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner.
But you probably meant "he has to win/go deep at more weekenders than he did so far".
Plus he's routinely failed at the biggest of them (Global Finals, Super Tournament/KeSPA Cup, IEM Katowice).
the same applies to the only other goat candidate
Innovation is not the only other GOAT candidate, or, at least, he shouldn't be. In any of case, he won two IEM(even if not Katowice) and a GSL vs The World on top of WESG(Maru's only non korean success), so while Inno is not the player with the most "weekenders" titles, he at least won a decent amount.
On April 23 2019 21:51 Soularion wrote: He needs to win some weekenders (or at least go deep in them) first. He's the GSL GOAT but he isn't there yet outside of it.
He alrealdy did that. I already posted this in another thread:
On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote: [quote]
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +
WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner.
But you probably meant "he has to win/go deep at more weekenders than he did so far".
These are far from GOAT-tier placements, though. Three finals in 6 years, one championship. Not exactly a star-studded lineup. Plus he's routinely failed at the biggest of them (Global Finals, Super Tournament/KeSPA Cup, IEM Katowice).
He needs either one Global Finals championship or multiple IEM Katowice/Super Tournament tier championships to be the GOAT, imo.
I just caught up on your criterion that he at least has to go deep in some weekenders. He already did that. I don't think that the frequenzy of such achievements is a super important thing for the GOAT title. The GOAT title is (for me) firstly defined by the number of achievements or number of periods of dominance and I value as the second biggest factor consistency in which Maru perhaps is unmatched. Also almost all of his Ro4-runs were in super high calibre weekenders (Hot6ix (equivalent to ST/KespaCup), Blizzcon, WCS season final (equivalent to GSL vs The World), GSL vs The World, IEM Katowice). But I do agree that Maru still has to win a little bit more to achieve the GOAT title, being kind of on par with Inno/Life right now. They won more weekenders but aren't close to Maru's Starleague successes and both had quite some inconstistency in their carreers.
On April 19 2019 21:47 Tchado wrote: If he becomes the first ever X5 winner , and he did it back to back.....that will prove it 100%.
No it won't. Nobody doubts Maru's ability to win GSL. There is nothing meaningful about winning five times that wasn't achieved by winning it four times. Or three times, really. Maru winning every GSL of 2018 was every bit of the unparalleled, legendary achievement it was touted as. That's not why people are questioning his status. And any achievement that doesn't address the legitimate criticism of his results isn't going to convince anyone.
I recall back in the mists of time when Rafael Nadal was god on clay, he was missing grand slams on other surfaces, to be considered a GOAT contender rather than the best clay court player ever, people felt he had to put in those results elsewhere.
Even if he’d won 12 French Opens, that was more of what he’d already done and didn’t answer the questions people had to begin with.
So yeah I don’t think it matters if Maru wins another GSL all that much, he’s already got the crazy GSL record.
If he tears up the weekenders in 2019 that’s way more relevant in filling holes than just adding to a stomping ground people accept as his already.
That is a cool analogy!
So if Maru = Nadal, guess it's pretty clear he is not GOAT
Love this analogy.
Maru’s success at GSL kind of helps me evaluate Taeja a bit better. For so long I didn’t know what to make of Taeja, but now I recognize fully that weekender skill and prepared skill are not necessarily the same thing. Of course there’s going to be a ton of overlap, but at the end of the day, a player isn’t bad if they only perform at one or the other. They’re also not the GOAT though. 🐐
On April 24 2019 08:45 Valyrian wrote: Can't be goat if you're bopped out of Blizzcon in your first game against sOs
That makes no sense whatsoever. Every GOAT candidate has stupid losses. StarCraft is a hard game with a large amount of randomness. Even the best players have dumb losses all the time And sOs is exactly the type of player you expect stupid losses against.
On April 24 2019 00:58 DieuCure wrote: Rofl, people seriously think it's better to win a few more week-enders in 7 years than 4 GSLs in a row ?
No, people think one should win weekenders in addition to several GSLs. Like MVP did. No one doubts Maru can dominate a GSL format at this point, but the best starcraft player of all time should also be able to win the weekenders that doesnt allow for the same type of preparation.
On April 24 2019 16:00 FataLe wrote: That's a weird way to spell MVP OP.
I'm gonna be "that guy" here and remind you that the player is "Mvp". "MVP" was the team with Genius and DRG etc. Normally I wouldn't care, but your joke there doesn't really work if you use the wrong capitalization.
Can we decide that Maru is not the GOAT (yet) and move on?
Probably not as the poll implies that there is no real majority position in this issue. The answere lies in the valuation of the factors "numbers of premier wins", "numbers of starleague wins", "number of weekender wins", "consistency" and "back-to-back victories".
Not necessarily. That's one impressive percentage(way too high if you ask me) but you don't know how exactly the remaining people would vote; what if the 43%(or more) is convinced Inno is the GOAT?
I like players that stand out for a particular strategy. Like 2013-4 Innovation parade pushes and 30 min mech turtle, or "i can out produce you if i only build marines" Bomber, or Gumigod playing the wackiest mech builds.
Recently there was nothing about maru that's really special and fun. I actually like him more in HOTS with the MARUders drop on colossi that was much more amusing. I'm not following the scene as much as i used to but TY was the latest terran I really liked.
Up until very recently when he played mech vs protoss against Stats. I really root for terrans playing mech in TvP. Makes the matchup much more interesting since bio vs P is always kinda the same and kinda "i have to kill him in 15 minutes or i'm dead".
On April 24 2019 23:24 JackONeill wrote: I like players that stand out for a particular strategy. Like 2013-4 Innovation parade pushes and 30 min mech turtle, or "i can out produce you if i only build marines" Bomber, or Gumigod playing the wackiest mech builds.
Recently there was nothing about maru that's really special and fun. I actually like him more in HOTS with the MARUders drop on colossi that was much more amusing. I'm not following the scene as much as i used to but TY was the latest terran I really liked.
Up until very recently when he played mech vs protoss against Stats. I really root for terrans playing mech in TvP. Makes the matchup much more interesting since bio vs P is always kinda the same and kinda "i have to kill him in 15 minutes or i'm dead".
Quite recently Maru can be described as "If I don't proxy you I will outmacro you in a way you wouldn't believe"?
Not necessarily. That's one impressive percentage(way too high if you ask me) but you don't know how exactly the remaining people would vote; what if the 43%(or more) is convinced Inno is the GOAT?
Can we decide that Maru is not the GOAT (yet) and move on?
Probably not as the poll implies that there is no real majority position in this issue. The answere lies in the valuation of the factors "numbers of premier wins", "numbers of starleague wins", "number of weekender wins", "consistency" and "back-to-back victories".
Yes, so: Maru is the GSL goat but he's by faaaaaaaaar no goat in general because he sucks too much in non korean tournaments. Topic closed :p We can open another goat discussion if he wins a non korean tournament some time or at least makes it to the finals.
Not necessarily. That's one impressive percentage(way too high if you ask me) but you don't know how exactly the remaining people would vote; what if the 43%(or more) is convinced Inno is the GOAT?
For sure. It seems perfectly reasonable.
It's entirely possible; also, don't forget this poll was created right after Maru's fourth Code S victory and may have been influenced by that. Let's at least wait the results of Nakajin's GOAT contest!
In any of case, just as you lol since those fools don't believe 4xCode S erase every single achievement everyone could have reached, I believe Maru is too monodimensional of a player and has not won enough(yet) to truly be GOAT.
Not necessarily. That's one impressive percentage(way too high if you ask me) but you don't know how exactly the remaining people would vote; what if the 43%(or more) is convinced Inno is the GOAT?
For sure. It seems perfectly reasonable.
It's entirely possible; also, don't forget this poll was created right after Maru's fourth Code S victory and may have been influenced by that. Let's at least wait the results of Nakajin's GOAT contest!
In any of case, just as you lol since those fools don't believe 4xCode S erase every single achievement everyone could have reached, I believe Maru is too monodimensional of a player and has not won enough(yet) to truly be GOAT.
Those damn mono battles in Proleague could have been fun, but Maru decided to not do them. Unless he proxied and go monobattles with marines.
87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
No way on Earth Maru could have been a top 5 all time Terran before 2018.
What about players winning more tournaments(especially more than one weekender in nine years) having played the game significantly less(having slightly lesser Code S success, this "four consecutive titles" is making everyone lose their mind)?
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
No way on Earth Maru could have been a top 5 all time Terran before 2018.
What about players winning more tournaments(especially more than one weekender in nine years) having played the game significantly less(having slightly lesser Code S success, this "four consecutive titles" is making everyone lose their mind)?
Then get me your top5 of best Terrans evah before 2018. Inno, Mvp, Taeja? And give me 2 Terrans who were stable, winning and better than Maru. Maru was the best Terran of Proleague, won 2 starleagues, had deep runs in Code S. Maru was in the top5 before 2018. (I would name Maru & TY as the rest of the top5)
Edit> MKP, Bomber? Nah. Maybe MMA? But many of his triumphs come from foreigner league which isn't helping, his biggest Korean achievements are Blizzcon #2 and the Code S title. Polt is similar to MMA in my eyes.
Seems like a lot of people think to be goat you have to be a perfect player.... someone has to be the goat. If you're saying it's not Maru who is it then? Inno? MVP?
I think Inno is a reasonable argument but I think Maru's peak is higher and therefore is the GOAT.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
On April 25 2019 22:43 Moonerz wrote: Seems like a lot of people think to be goat you have to be a perfect player.... someone has to be the goat. If you're saying it's not Maru who is it then? Inno? MVP?
I think Inno is a reasonable argument but I think Maru's peak is higher and therefore is the GOAT.
Also peak Inno lost to Maru in one of the fastest series Maru played
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Still soO has better reasons to be GOAT than Serral has now. I don't like this Serral arguments but when people bring him up I will bring him down (couldn't help myself)
Liquipedia page of Serral states: 2013-04-23 - 2014-02-20 Ence eSports 2014-02-24 - 2016-10-04 mYinsanity 2016-10-04 - Present Ence eSports Seems professional to me if you're in a professional team and competing in tournaments. Not sure how much professional he was back then but there's nothing to prove othewise. Maybe source your statement?
I don't deny Serral is good, he is very good, but don't bring him into this discussion, even Maru's achievements before 2018 are enough to turn that down.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Still soO has better reasons to be GOAT than Serral has now. I don't like this Serral arguments but when people bring him up I will bring him down (couldn't help myself)
Liquipedia page of Serral states: 2013-04-23 - 2014-02-20 Ence eSports 2014-02-24 - 2016-10-04 mYinsanity 2016-10-04 - Present Ence eSports Seems professional to me if you're in a professional team and competing in tournaments. Not sure how much professional he was back then but there's nothing to prove othewise. Maybe source your statement?
I don't deny Serral is good, he is very good, but don't bring him into this discussion, even Maru's achievements before 2018 are enough to turn that down.
Edit> bleh, double post, sorry.
Man, you overestimate Maru(and korean tournaments) so much it's insane; you know I didn't bring Serral into this discussion but saying pre 2018 Maru(or even soO) would be closer to GOAT makes me laugh nevertheless.
As for Serral not playing full time before 2017, he says himself in almost every interview he released you can find on TL.net or Liquipedia.
By the way, international tournaments were filled with koreans before regions were locked; one could even argue the incredibly stacked Code S in 2013-2014 was of lower level than WCS finals since a decent amount of very strong players were playing in EU or NA(Bomber, for example, won one); you are even forgetting MMA won GSL Blizzard Cup in 2011 against DRG, look at the lineup. You would say one OSL, one SSL and great Proleague records are better than one Code S, one Blizzard cup, SEVEN other titles in Premier tournaments(three of which in EU, the Others being international tournaments) and a good GSTL record(22-13)?
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Still soO has better reasons to be GOAT than Serral has now. I don't like this Serral arguments but when people bring him up I will bring him down (couldn't help myself)
Liquipedia page of Serral states: 2013-04-23 - 2014-02-20 Ence eSports 2014-02-24 - 2016-10-04 mYinsanity 2016-10-04 - Present Ence eSports Seems professional to me if you're in a professional team and competing in tournaments. Not sure how much professional he was back then but there's nothing to prove othewise. Maybe source your statement?
I don't deny Serral is good, he is very good, but don't bring him into this discussion, even Maru's achievements before 2018 are enough to turn that down.
Edit> bleh, double post, sorry.
Man, you overestimate Maru(and korean tournaments) so much it's insane; you know I didn't bring Serral into this discussion but saying pre 2018 Maru(or even soO) would be closer to GOAT makes me laugh nevertheless.
As for Serral not playing full time before 2017, he says himself in almost every interview he released you can find on TL.net or Liquipedia.
By the way, international tournaments were filled with koreans before regions were locked; one could even argue the incredibly stacked Code S in 2013-2014 was of lower level than WCS finals since a decent amount of very strong players were playing in EU or NA(Bomber, for example, won one); you are even forgetting MMA won GSL Blizzard Cup in 2011 against DRG, look at the lineup. You would say one OSL, one SSL and great Proleague records are better than one Code S, one Blizzard cup, SEVEN other titles in Premier tournaments(three of which in EU, the Others being international tournaments) and a good GSTL record(22-13)?
That's the issue about foreigner land leagues and many players went there because they weren't good enough for Code S anymore. Let's face the reality, exception to those may be Bomber(is he though? ) or Polt(as he was playing where he was studying). And yes, I value OSL/SSL higher than foreigner land tournaments. Korean elitits and stuff like that, you know.
If you check some of the tournaments the line ups aren't that great, e.g. HSC and Dreamhack Moscow. Let's not fool ourselves back then we had Life, Innovation, Classic, Parting, Taeja... but hey, at Moscow was Serral
Edit> I would place MMA as #6 on my list, maybe #5 instead of TY, I like him more than TY in the end But we can argue endlessly about this, many people many tastes and stuff. And yeah, some tournaments MMA won were hard to win. e.g. IronSquid, GSL or that Blizz title I didn't mention.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
I just wanted to chime in and state how flawed that statement is because the way you put it, it sounds like there is only 13% who think otherwise when in reality 45% of those 87% think he is a good contender, but not the only one and even put others above him. Does that make sense? Sounds confusing ^^'
Now I let deacon and Xain0n start this thread all over again. Pretty sure everything posted now was posted before somewhere in here xD
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
I just wanted to chime in and state how flawed that statement is because the way you put it, it sounds like there is only 13% who think otherwise when in reality 45% of those 87% think he is a good contender, but not the only one and even put others above him. Does that make sense? Sounds confusing ^^'
Now I let deacon and Xain0n start this thread all over again. Pretty sure everything posted now was posted before somewhere in here xD
Dude you should go look at the gun control thread, there's about 20 pages of content in there repeated over the course of something like 5 years.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
I just wanted to chime in and state how flawed that statement is because the way you put it, it sounds like there is only 13% who think otherwise when in reality 45% of those 87% think he is a good contender, but not the only one and even put others above him. Does that make sense? Sounds confusing ^^'
Now I let deacon and Xain0n start this thread all over again. Pretty sure everything posted now was posted before somewhere in here xD
Dude you should go look at the gun control thread, there's about 20 pages of content in there repeated over the course of something like 5 years.
Can't do that. I would start laughing uncontrollable and probably pee myself. I can take Gunlovers about as serious as Flatearthers
Edit: Might be overgeneralized: I mean those "I need a fullautomatic 1000 rounds per second rifle to defend my home" kinda guys
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
I just wanted to chime in and state how flawed that statement is because the way you put it, it sounds like there is only 13% who think otherwise when in reality 45% of those 87% think he is a good contender, but not the only one and even put others above him. Does that make sense? Sounds confusing ^^'
Now I let deacon and Xain0n start this thread all over again. Pretty sure everything posted now was posted before somewhere in here xD
Not really, it's pointless to even try to argue when one thinks pre-2018 Maru had better feats than MMA. I didn't say in this thread, before, how ridicolously underrated MMA is.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
No way on Earth Maru could have been a top 5 all time Terran before 2018.
What about players winning more tournaments(especially more than one weekender in nine years) having played the game significantly less(having slightly lesser Code S success, this "four consecutive titles" is making everyone lose their mind)?
Then get me your top5 of best Terrans evah before 2018. Inno, Mvp, Taeja? And give me 2 Terrans who were stable, winning and better than Maru. Maru was the best Terran of Proleague, won 2 starleagues, had deep runs in Code S. Maru was in the top5 before 2018. (I would name Maru & TY as the rest of the top5)
Edit> MKP, Bomber? Nah. Maybe MMA? But many of his triumphs come from foreigner league which isn't helping, his biggest Korean achievements are Blizzcon #2 and the Code S title. Polt is similar to MMA in my eyes.
It's interesting how you misread posts on purpose to fit your narrative :p
I don't put Serral over Innovation or Stats but over Maru. Additionally Maru (like mentioned above) is a progamer for a few years longer than Serral. Serral is consistent since his peak while Maru never was. Stats and Inno are on the same level or better than Serral and also consisistent players. They are contenders for a goat title. Maru isn't but maybe he can get there.
Edit: You're right that we cannot tell how Serral performs at preparational tourneys. What we know though is that he didn't fail yet because he didn't participate. In Maru's case we already know he failed many times in weekenders despite trying.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
On April 25 2019 22:14 Xain0n wrote:
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
No way on Earth Maru could have been a top 5 all time Terran before 2018.
What about players winning more tournaments(especially more than one weekender in nine years) having played the game significantly less(having slightly lesser Code S success, this "four consecutive titles" is making everyone lose their mind)?
Then get me your top5 of best Terrans evah before 2018. Inno, Mvp, Taeja? And give me 2 Terrans who were stable, winning and better than Maru. Maru was the best Terran of Proleague, won 2 starleagues, had deep runs in Code S. Maru was in the top5 before 2018. (I would name Maru & TY as the rest of the top5)
Edit> MKP, Bomber? Nah. Maybe MMA? But many of his triumphs come from foreigner league which isn't helping, his biggest Korean achievements are Blizzcon #2 and the Code S title. Polt is similar to MMA in my eyes.
It's interesting how you misread posts on purpose to fit your narrative :p
I don't put Serral over Innovation or Stats but over Maru. Additionally Maru (like mentioned above) is a progamer for a few years longer than Serral. Serral is consistent since his peak while Maru never was. Stats and Inno are on the same level or better than Serral and also consisistent players. They are contenders for a goat title. Maru isn't but maybe he can get there.
Edit: You're right that we cannot tell how Serral performs at preparational tourneys. What we know though is that he didn't fail yet because he didn't participate. In Maru's case we already know he failed many times in weekenders despite trying.
You're just cherry picking. Serral consistent since his peak? He's lost every tourney so far this year. Why don't we wait and see what happens before saying hes above Maru.
I guess you forgot about Inno's year long slump. Every player has bad results no one is perfect.
I'll just jump in and say that I agree with Deacon that when comparing Maru with Serral even disgregardning all Marus achivements from 2018 and forward he is still greater than Serral.
Yes an OSL championship, a starleague championship, WESG silver medal 2016, IEM tapiep silver medal 2015, semifinals of GSL 3!! times, semifinals blizzcon, semfinals hotixcup and his outrageous PL record is faaaar and above Serrals small list of achivements vs korean opposition.
Sure Maru didn't WIN a lot of championships prior to 2018 but he was one of the top 10 players in the world and continuesly placed highly also in weekender tournaments. MMA is great, I think its hard to compare him to Maru pre 2018, they were both insanely good results wise. Compared with Serral its not even close though, Serrals peak last year was awesome to see and super impressive but its three tournaments we are talking about here with real korean S class competition thats it. His peak was high but so far it has been brief, for anyone thinking Maru didn't put up any good results pre 2018 besides his championships must also then think that Serral has totally flopped and not put up any decent result this year since Serral has managed semifinals, same as pre 2018 Maru did consistently.
Edit. Also I kind of disagree with the arguement that Maru hasn't shown his skill in weekender, even 2018, he won WESG he got semifinals at bot Katawice and GSL vs the world. Sure he didn't WIN them but come on, sure he ONLY made top 8 at blizzcon. That is kind of a middling result but semifinals at the hardest weekender tournaments of the year is that really a bad result? I consider it pretty damn good
Serral’s peak was really high though in terms of pure gameplay, he hasn’t had the chance to show how he fares longevity wise.
He’s an odd player in the scene in that majority of opinion of him seems to fall into overrating or underrating the guy, with a more proportionate assessment seeming to be less common by far (IMO anyway)
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
On April 25 2019 22:14 Xain0n wrote:
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
No way on Earth Maru could have been a top 5 all time Terran before 2018.
What about players winning more tournaments(especially more than one weekender in nine years) having played the game significantly less(having slightly lesser Code S success, this "four consecutive titles" is making everyone lose their mind)?
Then get me your top5 of best Terrans evah before 2018. Inno, Mvp, Taeja? And give me 2 Terrans who were stable, winning and better than Maru. Maru was the best Terran of Proleague, won 2 starleagues, had deep runs in Code S. Maru was in the top5 before 2018. (I would name Maru & TY as the rest of the top5)
Edit> MKP, Bomber? Nah. Maybe MMA? But many of his triumphs come from foreigner league which isn't helping, his biggest Korean achievements are Blizzcon #2 and the Code S title. Polt is similar to MMA in my eyes.
It's interesting how you misread posts on purpose to fit your narrative :p
I don't put Serral over Innovation or Stats but over Maru. Additionally Maru (like mentioned above) is a progamer for a few years longer than Serral. Serral is consistent since his peak while Maru never was. Stats and Inno are on the same level or better than Serral and also consisistent players. They are contenders for a goat title. Maru isn't but maybe he can get there.
Edit: You're right that we cannot tell how Serral performs at preparational tourneys. What we know though is that he didn't fail yet because he didn't participate. In Maru's case we already know he failed many times in weekenders despite trying.
You're just cherry picking. Serral consistent since his peak? He's lost every tourney so far this year. Why don't we wait and see what happens before saying hes above Maru.
I guess you forgot about Inno's year long slump. Every player has bad results no one is perfect.
With being consistent I mean being able to reach the last rounds of tournaments, which he did. He didn't get crushed or completely failed in early rounds like Maru did. Anyway, it's not about Serral. This thread is about the question of Maru being GOAT. Which he clearly isn't because there are much better korean players and probably (we don't know for sure because he isn't able to reach the later stages of weekenders) a few better foreigners.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
On April 25 2019 22:14 Xain0n wrote:
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
No way on Earth Maru could have been a top 5 all time Terran before 2018.
What about players winning more tournaments(especially more than one weekender in nine years) having played the game significantly less(having slightly lesser Code S success, this "four consecutive titles" is making everyone lose their mind)?
Then get me your top5 of best Terrans evah before 2018. Inno, Mvp, Taeja? And give me 2 Terrans who were stable, winning and better than Maru. Maru was the best Terran of Proleague, won 2 starleagues, had deep runs in Code S. Maru was in the top5 before 2018. (I would name Maru & TY as the rest of the top5)
Edit> MKP, Bomber? Nah. Maybe MMA? But many of his triumphs come from foreigner league which isn't helping, his biggest Korean achievements are Blizzcon #2 and the Code S title. Polt is similar to MMA in my eyes.
It's interesting how you misread posts on purpose to fit your narrative :p
I don't put Serral over Innovation or Stats but over Maru. Additionally Maru (like mentioned above) is a progamer for a few years longer than Serral. Serral is consistent since his peak while Maru never was. Stats and Inno are on the same level or better than Serral and also consisistent players. They are contenders for a goat title. Maru isn't but maybe he can get there.
Edit: You're right that we cannot tell how Serral performs at preparational tourneys. What we know though is that he didn't fail yet because he didn't participate. In Maru's case we already know he failed many times in weekenders despite trying.
You're just cherry picking. Serral consistent since his peak? He's lost every tourney so far this year. Why don't we wait and see what happens before saying hes above Maru.
I guess you forgot about Inno's year long slump. Every player has bad results no one is perfect.
With being consistent I mean being able to reach the last rounds of tournaments, which he did. He didn't get crushed or completely failed in early rounds like Maru did. Anyway, it's not about Serral. This thread is about the question of Maru being GOAT. Which he clearly isn't because there are much better korean players and probably (we don't know for sure because he isn't able to reach the later stages of weekenders) a few better foreigners.
Which foreigners are better than Maru? Which Korean player is "much" better?
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories.
GOAT is quite bullshit across games, Mvp was WoL GOAT, HotS was a bad game, and Maru is LotV goat.
The other GOAT candidate is INno who was a freaking monster across games and patches.
Foreigners wise it’s hard to compare Serral and Stephanie because Serral is in a far easier environment to succeed against KR players than Stephano was imo, since there are a lot less pro gamers nowadays.
Maru lack of weekender success isn’t an issue imo, because if you remember how young he is, you realize he can play so many years as long as the scene lives. Which makes him a better GOAT candidate than the old INno.
On April 26 2019 08:17 Poopi wrote: Why so many pages about this?
GOAT is quite bullshit across games, Mvp was WoL GOAT, HotS was a bad game, and Maru is LotV goat.
The other GOAT candidate is INno who was a freaking monster across games and patches.
Foreigners wise it’s hard to compare Serral and Stephanie because Serral is in a far easier environment to succeed against KR players than Stephano was imo, since there are a lot less pro gamers nowadays.
Maru lack of weekender success isn’t an issue imo, because if you remember how young he is, you realize he can play so many years as long as the scene lives. Which makes him a better GOAT candidate than the old INno.
Not sure I agree on Stephano, he was ahead of the curve in some ways strategically and stylistically.
Serral is having to beat the best of the best in a higher skill environment, purely by just outplaying them.
Stephano took some great scalps, I would have to look back but from my recollection at his peak he was a monster who could take out anyone ZvP, his other matchups weren’t quite as good and in an era were just beating any Koreans was a big deal maybe some of his results don’t stand direct comparison with Serral’s.
I think the argument for Maru as GOAT has a few tarnishing factors, but he is certainly a very good player.
Unfortunately one can't overlook the amount of things in his favour environmentally at the moment. Add in the longevity (he has had far more opportunity than anyone else to accumulate trophies over the years). It is hard to say black and white he is Goat. But certainly he has found great success recently.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories.
Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade.
One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14
Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
Maybe my TY fangirl got strong while I was mentioning TY Bomber was a beast, but probably similarly to TY without notable achievements, but I loved his "marines solve everything if you have so many of them" attitude I cannot say anything wrong about him either Thankfully I'm not the only one who thinks similarly
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories.
Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade.
One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14
Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals).
To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years).
While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL). Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories.
Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade.
One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14
Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals).
To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years).
While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL). Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11.
Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories.
Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade.
One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14
Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals).
To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years).
While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL). Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11.
Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018.
Maru wouldn't because he doesn't like to travel and most of the tournaments were outside of Korea. Same reason why we never* saw him in HotS away from Korea when he was objectively good but wasn't the top earning Korean(and was in a team that can fly him there). Check the last updates in the HSC thread.
Maru shined through the HotS(while he wasn't the brightest start he was one of the star Terrans there) and is shining now.
On April 26 2019 16:08 fronkschnonk wrote: Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
This statistic would probably make Serral the GOAT Not saying he is. He still has a long way to go
I do like the idea of splitting up the games (WOL, HOTS, LOTV) that somebody mentioned. Way easier to compare this way
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories.
Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade.
One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14
Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
Serral won 6 of 14 in 2018 - 43%. Goat? Certainly year of the Goat.
I miss having so many weekend tournaments that I couldn’t actually watch them all.
On the other hand it did spread the top players around, whereas with fewer tournaments weekenders have a Code S calibre of player way way down the field.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories.
Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade.
One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14
Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals).
To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years).
While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL).
As I said: it depends on each tournament. Ofcourse there are and were weekenders which weren't to scoff at. But quite some (not all) Dreamhacks and HomestoryCups and Assemblies had mediocre player pools with often just 2-4 exceptional good players. A victory in specifically those weaker weekenders can't be valued higher than a GSL semifinal. And no - that's not based on sensation. I clicked through the brackets of all the premiers where especially Taeja participated. But you're right that it would be cool to give this thought a little more data as basis. Comparing over time shouldn't be that hard. While we probably all agree that players got better, the most interesting question is how they did at the time in comparison to the other players at the same time.
I don't think that the carreer lenght is a valid point. After all we just can compare what has been achieved, not what could've been achieved if circumstances would've been different. Also the most successful players of early SC2 competition weren't amateurs but mostly switched over from Broodwar after already having achieved a pro status. Players like Maru and Life just began their carreer in 2010 and as far as I know Maru still had to go to school in the first view years (just like Serral) and therefore wasn't fulltime.
On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote: Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11.
That's a good point but still kind of affirms my argument. The next question would be, how tough was the competition at each of those tournaments. We can probably say that playerwise Maru had 8/9 tournaments with highest/near highest difficulty.
On April 26 2019 19:20 Z3nith wrote: Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018.
Kind of. I just compared the best years. But also for the time argument I already stated that the carreer of others is artificially shortened considering they already competed in Broodwar.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories.
Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade.
One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14
Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals).
To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years).
While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL).
As I said: it depends on each tournament. Ofcourse there are and were weekenders which weren't to scoff at. But quite some (not all) Dreamhacks and HomestoryCups and Assemblies had mediocre player pools with often just 2-4 exceptional good players. A victory in specifically those weaker weekenders can't be valued higher than a GSL semifinal. And no - that's not based on sensation. I clicked through the brackets of all the premiers where especially Taeja participated. But you're right that it would be cool to give this thought a little more data as basis. Comparing over time shouldn't be that hard. While we probably all agree that players got better, the most interesting question is how they did at the time in comparison to the other players at the same time.
I don't think that the carreer lenght is a valid point. After all we just can compare what has been achieved, not what could've been achieved if circumstances would've been different. Also the most successful players of early SC2 competition weren't amateurs but mostly switched over from Broodwar after already having achieved a pro status. Players like Maru and Life just began their carreer in 2010 and as far as I know Maru still had to go to school in the first view years (just like Serral) and therefore wasn't fulltime.
On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote: Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11.
That's a good point but still kind of affirms my argument. The next question would be, how tough was the competition at each of those tournaments. We can probably say that playerwise Maru had 8/9 tournaments with highest/near highest difficulty.
On April 26 2019 19:20 Z3nith wrote: Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018.
Kind of. I just compared the best years. But also for the time argument I already stated that the carreer of others is artificially shortened considering they already competed in Broodwar.
I'll correct myself then, not sensations but your(or mine, which would be very different) evaluation of how much stronger certain opponent would be to justify a mere placement to be better than a victory; if we are speaking of competition of the same tier(despite some being evidently more prestigious or harder than others), winning titles is better than reaching semifinals. It would need to be proved otherwise, we could use the method I suggested(at the moment, however, I have no desire of doing that for hundreds of Premier tournaments); I think, too, that there should be adjustments to make in consideration of racial balance/representation(in favor or against the player whose performance we would like to evaluate) at the time the selected tournament was played. More time consuming than making a simple list with some commentaries.
On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so...
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories.
Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade.
One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14
Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals).
To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years).
While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL).
As I said: it depends on each tournament. Ofcourse there are and were weekenders which weren't to scoff at. But quite some (not all) Dreamhacks and HomestoryCups and Assemblies had mediocre player pools with often just 2-4 exceptional good players. A victory in specifically those weaker weekenders can't be valued higher than a GSL semifinal. And no - that's not based on sensation. I clicked through the brackets of all the premiers where especially Taeja participated. But you're right that it would be cool to give this thought a little more data as basis. Comparing over time shouldn't be that hard. While we probably all agree that players got better, the most interesting question is how they did at the time in comparison to the other players at the same time.
I don't think that the carreer lenght is a valid point. After all we just can compare what has been achieved, not what could've been achieved if circumstances would've been different. Also the most successful players of early SC2 competition weren't amateurs but mostly switched over from Broodwar after already having achieved a pro status. Players like Maru and Life just began their carreer in 2010 and as far as I know Maru still had to go to school in the first view years (just like Serral) and therefore wasn't fulltime.
On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote: Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11.
That's a good point but still kind of affirms my argument. The next question would be, how tough was the competition at each of those tournaments. We can probably say that playerwise Maru had 8/9 tournaments with highest/near highest difficulty.
On April 26 2019 19:20 Z3nith wrote: Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018.
Kind of. I just compared the best years. But also for the time argument I already stated that the carreer of others is artificially shortened considering they already competed in Broodwar.
I'll correct myself then, not sensations but your(or mine, which would be very different) evaluation of how much stronger certain opponent would be to justify a mere placement to be better than a victory; if we are speaking of competition of the same tier(despite some being evidently more prestigious or harder than others), winning titles is better than reaching semifinals. It would need to be proved otherwise, we could use the method I suggested(at the moment, however, I have no desire of doing that for hundreds of Premier tournaments); I think, too, that there should be adjustments to make in consideration of racial balance/representation(in favor or against the player whose performance we would like to evaluate) at the time the selected tournament was played. More time consuming than making a simple list with some commentaries.
If you mean "same tier" as in "premier/major/minor event" like liquipedia lists tournaments then this discussion becomes kind of nonsensical. It is an undeniable truth that there are premier events with a big difference in difficulty. Here is one example: One of Byun's 3 premier wins in 2016 was WCA in which Patience was the only other Korean and Scarlett and Nerchio forfeited their spots. The remaining players were Toodming, Cyan, iAsonu, Ptitdrogo, Kelazhur and Jieshi. Winning this tournament was probably as hard as reaching CodeS Ro16 (if not Ro32). As you said, one would have to evaluate each tournament in order to make a more general statement for the achievements of each player. But my point still stands: apart from WESG Maru had no easy premier tournaments while other players had. How big this difference is, is open to evaluation. I don't get your point with "in consideration of racial balance/representation" though. This is hardly an objective measurement. As much as I like it to praise Maru for his last-terran-standing performances, those racial distributions are too random by far to take them as hard facts. There are very few periods of time in which a race was clearly ahead. (probably early GomTvT, late Broodfestor and mid-hots protoss dominance).
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments.
Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories.
Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade.
One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14
Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals).
To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years).
While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL).
As I said: it depends on each tournament. Ofcourse there are and were weekenders which weren't to scoff at. But quite some (not all) Dreamhacks and HomestoryCups and Assemblies had mediocre player pools with often just 2-4 exceptional good players. A victory in specifically those weaker weekenders can't be valued higher than a GSL semifinal. And no - that's not based on sensation. I clicked through the brackets of all the premiers where especially Taeja participated. But you're right that it would be cool to give this thought a little more data as basis. Comparing over time shouldn't be that hard. While we probably all agree that players got better, the most interesting question is how they did at the time in comparison to the other players at the same time.
I don't think that the carreer lenght is a valid point. After all we just can compare what has been achieved, not what could've been achieved if circumstances would've been different. Also the most successful players of early SC2 competition weren't amateurs but mostly switched over from Broodwar after already having achieved a pro status. Players like Maru and Life just began their carreer in 2010 and as far as I know Maru still had to go to school in the first view years (just like Serral) and therefore wasn't fulltime.
On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote: Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11.
That's a good point but still kind of affirms my argument. The next question would be, how tough was the competition at each of those tournaments. We can probably say that playerwise Maru had 8/9 tournaments with highest/near highest difficulty.
On April 26 2019 19:20 Z3nith wrote: Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018.
Kind of. I just compared the best years. But also for the time argument I already stated that the carreer of others is artificially shortened considering they already competed in Broodwar.
I'll correct myself then, not sensations but your(or mine, which would be very different) evaluation of how much stronger certain opponent would be to justify a mere placement to be better than a victory; if we are speaking of competition of the same tier(despite some being evidently more prestigious or harder than others), winning titles is better than reaching semifinals. It would need to be proved otherwise, we could use the method I suggested(at the moment, however, I have no desire of doing that for hundreds of Premier tournaments); I think, too, that there should be adjustments to make in consideration of racial balance/representation(in favor or against the player whose performance we would like to evaluate) at the time the selected tournament was played. More time consuming than making a simple list with some commentaries.
If you mean "same tier" as in "premier/major/minor event" like liquipedia lists tournaments then this discussion becomes kind of nonsensical. It is an undeniable truth that there are premier events with a big difference in difficulty. Here is one example: One of Byun's 3 premier wins in 2016 was WCA in which Patience was the only other Korean and Scarlett and Nerchio forfeited their spots. The remaining players were Toodming, Cyan, iAsonu, Ptitdrogo, Kelazhur and Jieshi. Winning this tournament was probably as hard as reaching CodeS Ro16 (if not Ro32). As you said, one would have to evaluate each tournament in order to make a more general statement for the achievements of each player. But my point still stands: apart from WESG Maru had no easy premier tournaments while other players had. How big this difference is, is open to evaluation. I don't get your point with "in consideration of racial balance/representation" though. This is hardly an objective measurement. As much as I like it to praise Maru for his last-terran-standing performances, those racial distributions are too random by far to take them as hard facts. There are very few periods of time in which a race was clearly ahead. (probably early GomTvT, late Broodfestor and mid-hots protoss dominance).
There is a difference in difficulty among different Premier events , that's true, the contentious is how big this difference really is: you generally say "very relevant", I instead go with "less than you might think"; Aligulac rating may help with that the way I suggested.
We are somehow missing the point, however, which had become discussing pre-2018 Maru being potentially better than MMA, Polt and the others listed(even TaeJa..hmm, your opinion entirely). In that case, we are not comparing a bigger amount of non korean premier victories with fewer korean titles, we are comparing non korean successes with korean placements(victories being more numerous, as well). The difference seems huge, to me; winning is simply almost always harder(not to mention most prestigious and probably more remunerative, just look at the absurdly top heavy prize distribution most of the korean tournaments have or had) than failing right before the triumph, even in case of fiercer competition; of course, placing highly in a Premier is better than winning a Major, but a Premier title should be achieved in one extremely weak environment(let's say, Copa America with 10x the prize or a top korean in a well paid full Chinese tournament) for me to consider it inferior to a placement in another Premier, even Code S; that's not the case for current WCS, and, for example, I'm not that convinced that MMA's victory over MC in WCS EU S1 2014 is a worse feat than soO's loss against Zest in Code S finals of the same season.
As for the racial adjustment, it's definitely not subjective; it is, however, hard to properly evaluate and might get outright skipped without much remorse in the majority of cases.
I think we have come to a point where we can safely look at the poll and say more than half of people don't think Maru is GOAT, even though this poll was released immediately after his GSL victory (potentially creating recency bias).
My personal opinion is that Maru has found his greatest success in an era when he has insurmountable good fortune on his side to say categorically he is the Goat.
I also question a little bit whether GSL is the best indicator of skill anymore. Maru is a prime example of this - in weekenders which are the most level playing field really, he has been good but not great.
In the past, we used to consider 'prep-style' the decisive way to assess skill because SC BW and SC2 have traditionally been supported by massive team houses in South Korea. Starcraft was more of a team game - yes you needed to have good players, but you also needed to have good coaches, good practice partners, good player mix etc to win proleague.
It made sense that prep-style matches were the best because it brought together all of these elements in a melting pot. The teamhouse environment ensures maximum time for practice, the coach ensures the player is focused properly in training, the teammates help create and hone specific builds, and the player executes on the day.
And there were enough team houses that the vast majority of the scene could benefit from this set-up; almost no-one would be a sole trader by choice (which is why I don't buy the argument that no teamhouse can be good for players).
It's not the same anymore.
Jin-Air is the only true team house still operating, and the above create such a wide advantage for Jin Air players in prep-style tournaments over everyone else in the scene that it is truly hard to overlook. Complimented by the controversial format of GSL that gives past champions the best possible chance to reach ro8 again before anyone else... The odds are highly stacked for multi-championships.
If you think how a team like Incredible Miracle would have fared back in WOL if every other player didn't have a team house... MVP and Nestea would have 10 GSLs each!
That's why I think the long-held view that GSL means the best is becoming outdated, and truly the best indicators of skill are your 'endurance-style' big weekenders like BlizzCon, IEM etc. The team house advantage just doesn't apply as heavily - it's all down to the players' execution on the day.
This is a long-winded way of saying yes Maru has done phenomenally well recently (on par with Serral I'd say) but it is hard to overlook the fact that he has also had by far the best set of environmental conditions to make that happen as well. For me that means he still has work before he can be undisputed GOAT - a BlizzCon would certainly look good on his mantle.
However I understand a lot of the community still hold the opposite view and I respect that.
Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
It’s certainly at least a potential factor specifically for prep tournaments, we’re not privy to all the internal goings on of course
SC2 isn’t quite as mechanically brutal as BW too, but more importantly there is way more information out there than at the peak Kespa era, there are streams, replay packs for many tournaments and also quite important too - basically all tournaments use WCS interface but even before the extra info that displays aesthetically (I was watching old tournies and wow I’d forgotten how bad the UI was in some), you have an omnipresent production tab basically always up. So it’s way easier to reverse engineer a build as soon as it’s out there.
There also isn’t Proleague anymore, so less incentive to hide builds overall. Players practice together and share ideas that would have been borderline trade secrets back in the day.
Basically all those factors and people who are teamless, or don’t actually have a team environment (most other teams are basically just sponsors at this point) can absolutely remain competitive, especially if they already had been through the Kespa regime and were already top players.
More than enough there to keep ticking over and remain in the shape needed to win a stacked weekender.
How does Maru rock up to the Super Tournament and show a pretty damn refined mech style that Artosis and presumably Stats hadn't seen before? Not just a few fancy allin builds, or a cute opening but a fully fleshed out schematic from early game to late that was largely really well-executed and also really quite different stylistically from that of Gumiho’s later games. And Gumiho has plenty of history in trying mech vP to boot.
Could you do this without a team house? Sure. Is it the optimal environment to develop something like that? Absolutely. You can get great practice in other ways, if you want to grind to prep a series like that, being in the same room as Trap, sOs and Cure who can put time into all pushing you to a high tournament placing is a nice spot to ge in. Also really helps to avoid any kind of leak too.
On April 27 2019 07:42 Wombat_NI wrote: SC2 isn’t quite as mechanically brutal as BW too
Do you have any data on EPM and all or are you simply saying that because others have said so ?
Playing them both/watching them both. SC2 is still pretty brutal that way too and has other ways it’s punishing. The team house environment produced players with a big enough mechanical advantage that as far as I’m aware no top players haven’t at least gone through that system at some point.
In SC2 you can get there without grinding in that environment, Serral being a case in point, and indeed some players have flourished away from it. In Maru’s case I think JAGW bring as it is may help a lot for a prep tournament, but doesn’t really give him other advantages over the scene, whereas if it was BW back in the day it definitely would have been a bigger advantage
On April 27 2019 07:42 Wombat_NI wrote: SC2 isn’t quite as mechanically brutal as BW too
Do you have any data on EPM and all or are you simply saying that because others have said so ?
Playing them both/watching them both. SC2 is still pretty brutal that way too and has other ways it’s punishing. The team house environment produced players with a big enough mechanical advantage that as far as I’m aware no top players haven’t at least gone through that system at some point.
In SC2 you can get there without grinding in that environment, Serral being a case in point, and indeed some players have flourished away from it. In Maru’s case I think JAGW bring as it is may help a lot for a prep tournament, but doesn’t really give him other advantages over the scene, whereas if it was BW back in the day it definitely would have been a bigger advantage
that's just theorizing since in bw there were no serious progamers not in a teamhouse
I think they are eqaul mechanically demaning. I mean you can always do more if you have the (e)APM and the attention. While macro is probably easier in SC2 (due to MBS and the likes), micro isn't. You can always do more drops, more attacks, more multi pronged stuff, more spells
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
4 of those months were against foreigners, I say we replace Serral with Dark(or any other top Korean) and see if they can do this at WCS.
That's nonsense, if you claim the teamhouse has such a huge advantage these players would be better.
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
4 of those months were against foreigners, I say we replace Serral with Dark(or any other top Korean) and see if they can do this at WCS.
That's nonsense, if you claim the teamhouse has such a huge advantage these players would be better.
Dark's ZvZ isn't anywhere near Serral's ZvZ, sooooo pretty sure no, Dark couldn't with the ZvZ heavy top in EU
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
Serral does NOT have a GSL. GSL vs The world is not a GSL,
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
Serral does NOT have a GSL. GSL vs The world is not a GSL,
Oh, indeed it is. He doesn't have a Code S title, but Serral is in fact the first foreigner winning a GSL event.
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
Serral does NOT have a GSL. GSL vs The world is not a GSL,
Oh, indeed it is. He doesn't have a Code S title, but Serral is in fact the first foreigner winning a GSL event.
Noup. Neeb Kespa Cup much more close to a GSL than the showmatch tournamet Serral won. Just because it has a branding name doesnt mean it is a GSL
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
Serral does NOT have a GSL. GSL vs The world is not a GSL,
Oh, indeed it is. He doesn't have a Code S title, but Serral is in fact the first foreigner winning a GSL event.
Noup. Neeb Kespa Cup much more close to a GSL than the showmatch tournamet Serral won. Just because it has a branding name doesnt mean it is a GSL
What the hell should that mean? KeSpa Cup was not organized by Gom TV, unlike GSL vs the World; you can casually disregard it, but you definitely cannot say it's not a GSL event.
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
Serral does NOT have a GSL. GSL vs The world is not a GSL,
Oh, indeed it is. He doesn't have a Code S title, but Serral is in fact the first foreigner winning a GSL event.
Noup. Neeb Kespa Cup much more close to a GSL than the showmatch tournamet Serral won. Just because it has a branding name doesnt mean it is a GSL
What the hell should that mean? KeSpa Cup was not organized by Gom TV, unlike GSL vs the World; you can casually disregard it, but you definitely cannot say it's not a GSL event.
DO I need to explain it? I though it was obvious, but ok. When people think about GSL think about the hardest and more prestigeous SC2 tournament. Followed by Katowice and Kespa Cups (now known as Supertournaments).
The fact that dave4 used the name of GSL to refer a GSL vs the world is an attempt to put the latter at the same level to a Code S run, which is not.
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
Serral does NOT have a GSL. GSL vs The world is not a GSL,
Oh, indeed it is. He doesn't have a Code S title, but Serral is in fact the first foreigner winning a GSL event.
Noup. Neeb Kespa Cup much more close to a GSL than the showmatch tournamet Serral won. Just because it has a branding name doesnt mean it is a GSL
What the hell should that mean? KeSpa Cup was not organized by Gom TV, unlike GSL vs the World(edit: actually Afreeca TV took them over, but the reasoning is the same); you can casually disregard it, but you definitely cannot say it's not a GSL event.
DO I need to explain it? I though it was obvious, but ok. When people think about GSL think about the hardest and more prestigeous SC2 tournament. Followed by Katowice and Kespa Cups (now known as Supertournaments).
The fact that dave4 used the name of GSL to refer a GSL vs the world is an attempt to put the latter at the same level to a Code S run, which is not.
I'll give you that the names of the events have changed kind of frequently throughout the years. In any of case, GSL events are all those organized by GOM TV(and Afreeca TV afterwards), GSL vs the World is one of them; Code S is the most prestigious one. Serral technically won a GSL event even if he never even try to qualify for Code S.
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
4 of those months were against foreigners, I say we replace Serral with Dark(or any other top Korean) and see if they can do this at WCS.
That's nonsense, if you claim the teamhouse has such a huge advantage these players would be better.
Dark's ZvZ isn't anywhere near Serral's ZvZ, sooooo pretty sure no, Dark couldn't with the ZvZ heavy top in EU
You actually think Dark wouldn't beat foreigners in bo5? What the fuck hahahaha :D
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
4 of those months were against foreigners, I say we replace Serral with Dark(or any other top Korean) and see if they can do this at WCS.
That's nonsense, if you claim the teamhouse has such a huge advantage these players would be better.
Dark's ZvZ isn't anywhere near Serral's ZvZ, sooooo pretty sure no, Dark couldn't with the ZvZ heavy top in EU
You actually think Dark wouldn't beat foreigners in bo5? What the fuck hahahaha :D
I think he believes Dark wouldn't have won four consecutive WCS considering his ZvZ isn't at Serral's level.
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
4 of those months were against foreigners, I say we replace Serral with Dark(or any other top Korean) and see if they can do this at WCS.
That's nonsense, if you claim the teamhouse has such a huge advantage these players would be better.
Dark's ZvZ isn't anywhere near Serral's ZvZ, sooooo pretty sure no, Dark couldn't with the ZvZ heavy top in EU
You actually think Dark wouldn't beat foreigners in bo5? What the fuck hahahaha :D
I actually think Serral >>>>> Dark in ZvZ, yes
On April 29 2019 19:54 Argonauta wrote: Noup. Neeb Kespa Cup much more close to a GSL than the showmatch tournamet Serral won. Just because it has a branding name doesnt mean it is a GSL
A tournament with a 100.000 $ is NOT a showmatch tournament... This is almost 4 times of what ST pays
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
4 of those months were against foreigners, I say we replace Serral with Dark(or any other top Korean) and see if they can do this at WCS.
That's nonsense, if you claim the teamhouse has such a huge advantage these players would be better.
Dark's ZvZ isn't anywhere near Serral's ZvZ, sooooo pretty sure no, Dark couldn't with the ZvZ heavy top in EU
You actually think Dark wouldn't beat foreigners in bo5? What the fuck hahahaha :D
On April 29 2019 19:54 Argonauta wrote: Noup. Neeb Kespa Cup much more close to a GSL than the showmatch tournamet Serral won. Just because it has a branding name doesnt mean it is a GSL
A tournament with a 100.000 $ is NOT a showmatch tournament... This is almost 4 times of what ST pays
It is a showmatch because there were no qualifiers, just a popular voting about who could attend with a lot of extra invitees.
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
Serral does NOT have a GSL. GSL vs The world is not a GSL,
Oh, indeed it is. He doesn't have a Code S title, but Serral is in fact the first foreigner winning a GSL event.
Noup. Neeb Kespa Cup much more close to a GSL than the showmatch tournamet Serral won. Just because it has a branding name doesnt mean it is a GSL
What the hell should that mean? KeSpa Cup was not organized by Gom TV, unlike GSL vs the World; you can casually disregard it, but you definitely cannot say it's not a GSL event.
DO I need to explain it? I though it was obvious, but ok. When people think about GSL think about the hardest and more prestigeous SC2 tournament. Followed by Katowice and Kespa Cups (now known as Supertournaments).
The fact that dave4 used the name of GSL to refer a GSL vs the world is an attempt to put the latter at the same level to a Code S run, which is not.
I said GSL not Code S so I'm unsure why you're confused. And of course it was a prestigious tournament, it was one of 14 premiers in the year.
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
4 of those months were against foreigners, I say we replace Serral with Dark(or any other top Korean) and see if they can do this at WCS.
That's nonsense, if you claim the teamhouse has such a huge advantage these players would be better.
Dark's ZvZ isn't anywhere near Serral's ZvZ, sooooo pretty sure no, Dark couldn't with the ZvZ heavy top in EU
You actually think Dark wouldn't beat foreigners in bo5? What the fuck hahahaha :D
I actually think Serral >>>>> Dark in ZvZ, yes
On April 29 2019 19:54 Argonauta wrote: Noup. Neeb Kespa Cup much more close to a GSL than the showmatch tournamet Serral won. Just because it has a branding name doesnt mean it is a GSL
A tournament with a 100.000 $ is NOT a showmatch tournament... This is almost 4 times of what ST pays
It is a showmatch because there were no qualifiers, just a popular voting about who could attend with a lot of extra invitees.
The vote is a vote, can't argue with that
The invites were to the best players in their respective areas. You qualify with beeing one of those. Like Blizzcon invites the top 8 players with the most points
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
4 of those months were against foreigners, I say we replace Serral with Dark(or any other top Korean) and see if they can do this at WCS.
That's nonsense, if you claim the teamhouse has such a huge advantage these players would be better.
Dark's ZvZ isn't anywhere near Serral's ZvZ, sooooo pretty sure no, Dark couldn't with the ZvZ heavy top in EU
You actually think Dark wouldn't beat foreigners in bo5? What the fuck hahahaha :D
On April 29 2019 19:54 Argonauta wrote: Noup. Neeb Kespa Cup much more close to a GSL than the showmatch tournamet Serral won. Just because it has a branding name doesnt mean it is a GSL
A tournament with a 100.000 $ is NOT a showmatch tournament... This is almost 4 times of what ST pays
Dark has the best Korean record against foreigners not named Serral, so think again.
On April 27 2019 06:40 deacon.frost wrote: Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
As I said I think those tournaments are more 'anyones game' so not surprising that soO, Inno and Classic took out the most recent weekenders really..
Yes Serral also went on a 9 month undefeated streak you might recall (nothing comparable in sc2 history) which included a GSL and BlizzCon so I think it is certainly worth mentioning.
4 of those months were against foreigners, I say we replace Serral with Dark(or any other top Korean) and see if they can do this at WCS.
That's nonsense, if you claim the teamhouse has such a huge advantage these players would be better.
Dark's ZvZ isn't anywhere near Serral's ZvZ, sooooo pretty sure no, Dark couldn't with the ZvZ heavy top in EU
You actually think Dark wouldn't beat foreigners in bo5? What the fuck hahahaha :D
I actually think Serral >>>>> Dark in ZvZ, yes
On April 29 2019 19:54 Argonauta wrote: Noup. Neeb Kespa Cup much more close to a GSL than the showmatch tournamet Serral won. Just because it has a branding name doesnt mean it is a GSL
A tournament with a 100.000 $ is NOT a showmatch tournament... This is almost 4 times of what ST pays
Dark has the best Korean record against foreigners not named Serral, so think again.
Maru is definitely there by results, I don't see how anyone can argue about that. He's not the only titan in SC2, but he can't be denied from being at the top of the conversation.
To suggest otherwise is pure fandom, either against him or for someone else. As in, just think for a moment about what the word that gives us the term "fan".
On April 18 2019 23:05 kajtarp wrote: Well i don't want to take anything from Maru, but with the power of the gls winner at group selection, he makes ridiculously easy group for himself every time, while creating group of deaths. He lost to Bunny in Ro16 and Impact almost eliminated him. What would have happened if he is in a group death instead?
Well no we know the answer. Have fun in group of deaths in the upcoming GSL's Maru
On April 18 2019 23:05 kajtarp wrote: Well i don't want to take anything from Maru, but with the power of the gls winner at group selection, he makes ridiculously easy group for himself every time, while creating group of deaths. He lost to Bunny in Ro16 and Impact almost eliminated him. What would have happened if he is in a group death instead?
Well no we know the answer. Have fun in group of deaths in the upcoming GSL's Maru
On April 18 2019 23:05 kajtarp wrote: Well i don't want to take anything from Maru, but with the power of the gls winner at group selection, he makes ridiculously easy group for himself every time, while creating group of deaths. He lost to Bunny in Ro16 and Impact almost eliminated him. What would have happened if he is in a group death instead?
Well no we know the answer. Have fun in group of deaths in the upcoming GSL's Maru
He had to win the title in the first Code S to get the swap ability, didn't he? So... (and he's still good so others will try to avoid him)
On April 18 2019 23:05 kajtarp wrote: Well i don't want to take anything from Maru, but with the power of the gls winner at group selection, he makes ridiculously easy group for himself every time, while creating group of deaths. He lost to Bunny in Ro16 and Impact almost eliminated him. What would have happened if he is in a group death instead?
Well no we know the answer. Have fun in group of deaths in the upcoming GSL's Maru
He had to win the title in the first Code S to get the swap ability, didn't he? So... (and he's still good so others will try to avoid him)
On April 18 2019 23:05 kajtarp wrote: Well i don't want to take anything from Maru, but with the power of the gls winner at group selection, he makes ridiculously easy group for himself every time, while creating group of deaths. He lost to Bunny in Ro16 and Impact almost eliminated him. What would have happened if he is in a group death instead?
Well no we know the answer. Have fun in group of deaths in the upcoming GSL's Maru
He had to win the title in the first Code S to get the swap ability, didn't he? So... (and he's still good so others will try to avoid him)
Yes he had to. But this group was harder then his usual RO16 were. It was really boring what an easy groups he had all the time. Remember few years ago when Inno was considered the best and feared by most. In every group stage he was tossed around groups, paired together with TvT snipers Alive, TY, Gumiho etc. It took him 2 or 3 season to break this and eventually win GSL. Now i can see the same thing happening with Maru (unless a teammate wins GSL). Being switched into groups with TvT snipers, or even against sOs. Every time he qualifies RO16 he will be switched into group of deaths i'm almost certain.
Something I wrote in another thread but should have been here I guess:
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
On April 30 2019 00:30 M2 wrote: Something I wrote in another thread but should have been here I guess:
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
Some people were pointing this out when JD & Flash switched to SC2 without any reasonable success(considering their state in BW). And look now how's Flash in BW
On April 18 2019 23:05 kajtarp wrote: Well i don't want to take anything from Maru, but with the power of the gls winner at group selection, he makes ridiculously easy group for himself every time, while creating group of deaths. He lost to Bunny in Ro16 and Impact almost eliminated him. What would have happened if he is in a group death instead?
Well no we know the answer. Have fun in group of deaths in the upcoming GSL's Maru
He had to win the title in the first Code S to get the swap ability, didn't he? So... (and he's still good so others will try to avoid him)
Yes he had to. But this group was harder then his usual RO16 were. It was really boring what an easy groups he had all the time. Remember few years ago when Inno was considered the best and feared by most. In every group stage he was tossed around groups, paired together with TvT snipers Alive, TY, Gumiho etc. It took him 2 or 3 season to break this and eventually win GSL. Now i can see the same thing happening with Maru (unless a teammate wins GSL). Being switched into groups with TvT snipers, or even against sOs. Every time he qualifies RO16 he will be switched into group of deaths i'm almost certain.
Doubt it, considering there are much worse names in the bracket every time. Like I believe that if Maru would have been in group selection Classic would be the one who will be flying left and right and not Maru(even without his power). And creating TvT group means that you have to survive those TvTs either which isn't exactly what you want when Maru can go - screw this, proxy times.
Some people were pointing this out when JD & Flash switched to SC2 without any reasonable success(considering their state in BW). And look now how's Flash in BW
How is he? not playing because of health problems.
Some people were pointing this out when JD & Flash switched to SC2 without any reasonable success(considering their state in BW). And look now how's Flash in BW
How is he? not playing because of health problems.
I didn't mean JUST NOW, but after he switched from SC2 to BW. He was the sole reason of creation anti-terran maps...
On April 30 2019 00:30 M2 wrote: Something I wrote in another thread but should have been here I guess:
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
I mean, Maru won 4 GSL's in a row which is a more dominant record in Starleagues than Flash ever had. If the tournament scene was the same as in BW with Starleagues being the only relevant individual tournament he'd definitely a bonjwa so I think the different tournament scene is the main reason.
On April 30 2019 00:30 M2 wrote: Something I wrote in another thread but should have been here I guess:
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
I mean, Maru won 4 GSL's in a row which is a more dominant record in Starleagues than Flash ever had. If the tournament scene was the same as in BW with Starleagues being the only relevant individual tournament he'd definitely a bonjwa so I think the different tournament scene is the main reason.
While Maru in 2018/2019 won more consecutive Starleague than Flash did in 2010(four to three), Flash placed second in other two and had already won one that year(not mentioning he went on to triumph in WCG as well); moreover, he had to constantly face Jaedong who already was the best Zerg ever and the other contender for the throne of best player in Brood War while Maru's strongest rival did not even play in Korea.
If GSL had the same uncontested preminence OSL and MSL had in BW and if the korean scene were the only relevant one(as it could be the case in HoTS), Maru would have been bonjwa without a doubt.
On April 30 2019 00:30 M2 wrote: Something I wrote in another thread but should have been here I guess:
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
Difference between Flash and Maru is that Flash is a constantly super good player. Maru is an occassionally super good player while sucking 50% of the time. So not nearly close to Flash.
On April 30 2019 00:30 M2 wrote: Something I wrote in another thread but should have been here I guess:
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
Difference between Flash and Maru is that Flash is a constantly super good player. Maru is an occassionally super good player while sucking 50% of the time. So not nearly close to Flash.
Difference also is that Flash wasn't nearly as successful in SC2 as Maru. And losing to top opponents everny now and then and occasionally losing to underdogs is not "sucking 50% of the time". In fact Serral and Maru are probably kind of unmatched with their best winrecords during their periods of dominance in 2018 in the whole history of SC2.
On April 30 2019 04:20 Ej_ wrote: ah, we have entered the territory of debating BW careers and legacy now, truly the 2019 is the enlightened era of LR threads
On April 30 2019 00:30 M2 wrote: Something I wrote in another thread but should have been here I guess:
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
Difference between Flash and Maru is that Flash is a constantly super good player. Maru is an occassionally super good player while sucking 50% of the time. So not nearly close to Flash.
Nobody said that, of course he doesn't compare to Flash. Point is that if the tournament scene in sc2 was the same as in BW (only starleagues) Maru would be a bonjwa 100% now winning every tournament for over a year. With constant weekenders/oversea tournaments which require a different skillset and drain out the players due to travelling it's much more diffficult in sc2 to dominate everything
Why is Flash even being brought up? he played a different game
It is widely known that Terran has been broken in BW. Terran has utterly dominated BW. The most favorable non-mirror winrates, highest peak ELOs, the most MSL,OSL, and ASL titles, and all bonjwas but one are terran (only non-terran was involved in match fixing lol). TvT is also the least "bullshit" mirror in brood war, meaning that skill is rewarded the most and the top terran player doesnt have to be worried about mirror matches as much as the top zerg or protoss player
Maru doesnt enjoy the luxury of a Terran race that has been blatantly broken for the majority of his sc2 career like flash with BW
On April 30 2019 04:59 BerserkSword wrote: Why is Flash even being brought up? he played a different game
It is widely known that Terran has been broken in BW. Terran has utterly dominated BW. The most favorable non-mirror winrates, highest peak ELOs, the most MSL,OSL, and ASL titles, and all bonjwas but one are terran (only non-terran was involved in match fixing lol). TvT is also the least "bullshit" mirror in brood war, meaning that skill is rewarded the most and the top terran player doesnt have to be worried about mirror matches as much as the top zerg or protoss player
Maru doesnt enjoy the luxury of a Terran race that has been blatantly broken for the majority of his sc2 career like flash with BW
On April 30 2019 00:30 M2 wrote: Something I wrote in another thread but should have been here I guess:
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
Difference between Flash and Maru is that Flash is a constantly super good player. Maru is an occassionally super good player while sucking 50% of the time. So not nearly close to Flash.
Nobody said that, of course he doesn't compare to Flash. Point is that if the tournament scene in sc2 was the same as in BW (only starleagues) Maru would be a bonjwa 100% now winning every tournament for over a year. With constant weekenders/oversea tournaments which require a different skillset and drain out the players due to travelling it's much more diffficult in sc2 to dominate everything
On April 30 2019 00:30 M2 wrote: Something I wrote in another thread but should have been here I guess:
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
Difference between Flash and Maru is that Flash is a constantly super good player. Maru is an occassionally super good player while sucking 50% of the time. So not nearly close to Flash.
Nobody said that, of course he doesn't compare to Flash. Point is that if the tournament scene in sc2 was the same as in BW (only starleagues) Maru would be a bonjwa 100% now winning every tournament for over a year. With constant weekenders/oversea tournaments which require a different skillset and drain out the players due to travelling it's much more diffficult in sc2 to dominate everything
I do admit Maru definitely is not bonjwa on the level of Flash but I think it wouldn't be crazy to compare him to Savior or Boxer in terms of achievements. Inno is more like Jaedong in that he amassed his achievements over a longer period of time.