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Due to Maru's recent 4th GSL victory the question wether or not he is to be considered the GOAT is discussed with much passion.
Since we thought the poll wouldn't be seen by many in the "Maru defeats Classic"-thread, here is an extra topic just for this reason to settle it once and for all ... and to discuss about it until eternity no matter what this kind of irrelevant but fun poll sais.
Poll: Is Maru the GOAT?Not sure, but he has a claim in the discussion. (455) 46% Absolutely GOAT! (397) 40% Absolutely not! (61) 6% First he has to win WCS, Blizzcon, HSC, IEM and Cheesadelphia!!!1 (47) 5% He still has to gather more trophies. (22) 2% 982 total votes Your vote: Is Maru the GOAT? (Vote): Absolutely GOAT! (Vote): Not sure, but he has a claim in the discussion. (Vote): He still has to gather more trophies. (Vote): Absolutely not! (Vote): First he has to win WCS, Blizzcon, HSC, IEM and Cheesadelphia!!!1
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He'll more than likely win next Season as well.
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thanks for moving it to a separate thread! the results are in with 35 votes, this is totally scientific. GOAT!!!!!!!
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I'm pretty sure poll threads aren't tolerated on TL?
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On April 17 2019 03:41 Elentos wrote: I'm pretty sure poll threads aren't tolerated on TL? If that is so, I wasn't aware of that and then my apologies. Maybe this can be an exception because it is discussed quite thoroughly in multiple threads.
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If Maru gets a couple more GSL wins soon, we might have use even another word.
I am personally not a big fan of Maru 's playstyle, but so far he delivers where it matters.
The polls seems to be not very serious, not even because of the Cheesadelphia, but because of general international tournaments. If one takes GSL seriously I doubt there is much time for shenanigans. I even count a Blizzcon win, while more prestigious, not as high as a GSL trophy. (Because Blizzcon has less players, some foreigners which are not on GSL level, and is done in a short amount of time which focuses more on quick adaptation than on preparation for a specific opponent.) A Blizzcon is in my opinion still an essential tournament in order to provide a conclusion to the year's storyline and because of that, a player with a GOAT claim of course must also win Blizzcon. At least two times in a row.
I am sure that my views on GOAT are different to many others.
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On April 17 2019 03:41 Elentos wrote: I'm pretty sure poll threads aren't tolerated on TL?
That would be super ridiculous. It's just an interesting/fun thing to see.
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On April 17 2019 04:01 [F_]aths wrote: If Maru gets a couple more GSL wins soon, we might have use even another word.
I am personally not a big fan of Maru 's playstyle, but so far he delivers where it matters.
The polls seems to be not very serious, not even because of the Cheesadelphia, but because of general international tournaments. If one takes GSL seriously I doubt there is much time for shenanigans. I even count a Blizzcon win, while more prestigious, not as high as a GSL trophy. (Because Blizzcon has less players, some foreigners which are not on GSL level, and is done in a short amount of time which focuses more on quick adaptation than on preparation for a specific opponent.) A Blizzcon is in my opinion still an essential tournament in order to provide a conclusion to the year's storyline and because of that, a player with a GOAT claim of course must also win Blizzcon. At least two times in a row.
I am sure that my views on GOAT are different to many others. Well, it is serious apart from the cheesadelphia option. There are quite some voices stating that Maru's lack of success in "weekenders" kind of diminished his legacy. And one can argue that there is a point in that because if someone wins the hardest tournaments why can't win the easier ones? Also that a preparation based tournament takes more skill than a shorttime-event is just a subjective opinion and was widely discussed in the Taeja-era already.
But I share your view that in terms of skill of the participating players there is barely anything as tough as GSL. IEM and Super Tournaments are the only real contenders here (and before region lock also Blizzcon). But if you compare the path of the winner of each tournament then there barely is a difference in difficulty between GSL and Blizzcon or GSL vs the World.
That a GOAT would need a Blizzcon win (not to speak of two in a row) is unheard of. GOAT is to be defined relative to the achievements of other players and thus there is no abolutely defined hurdle which has to be taken to be called GOAT.
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Maru is surely the best GSL player, and GSL is the strongest tournament we have, but even so I'd like to see him perform well outside of his prefered niche before calling him the greatest of all time. It's such a glaring weakness for someone aiming for that title.
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i have linked maru's liquipedia but he has had multiple top 4 finishes in weekender tourneys. how is that not good, when combined with his dominance in GSL? a lesser tier korean like losira (sorry losira am a fan for your dedication though!) would LOVE to have that kind of success outside
edit: also taeja is a legend, and he carried liquid in their team leagues and absolutely killed it in weekenders. as an aside, liquid hero also had success in weekenders but not so much in GSL. but if you had to pick, i'd pick maru cause of GSL over taeja
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Maru is definitely the GOAT. Sure he doesn't have quite as many premiers as Mvp/Inno/Life but the quality of his premiers are much higher and he will be winning a few more this year anyways. Plus his proleague performance is worth at least 1 premier itself. All his top 4s and top 8s have to be taken into account as well. There are so many seasons of GSL where Maru was the last Terran standing.
I also feel like his 2018 is almost underrated because of all the Serral hype. His 2018 is unheard of. Yeah he got embarrassed by sOs at blizzcon but the fact is every top player gets eliminated early at least once during their periods of dominance. Mvp outright missed a GSL during 2011 which is considered his best year. Innos best year is probably 2013 and in season 3 of GSL that year he went out in the top 16. Life had tons of early eliminations in tournaments even at his peaks. Everyone is inconsistent in SC2.
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So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous.
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Not yet - his best year thus far (2018) was overshadowed by Serral. If he can keep up this form through the end of year, and Serral doesn't keep on winning everything, then he has a shot. So far, it's looking good with him grabbing his 4th straight GSL while Serral lost WCS to Reynor.
Otherwise, Maru risks being overshadowed during his own peak era (e.g., Jaedong to Flash)
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On April 17 2019 04:34 Bagration wrote: Not yet - his best year thus far (2018) was overshadowed by Serral. If he can keep up this form through the end of year, and Serral doesn't keep on winning everything, then he has a shot. So far, it's looking good with him grabbing his 4th straight GSL while Serral lost WCS to Reynor.
Otherwise, Maru risks being overshadowed during his own peak era (e.g., Jaedong to Flash) No. At best Serral had equal year
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On April 17 2019 04:23 fishjie wrote: i have linked maru's liquipedia but he has had multiple top 4 finishes in weekender tourneys. how is that not good, when combined with his dominance in GSL? a lesser tier korean like losira (sorry losira am a fan for your dedication though!) would LOVE to have that kind of success outside
It's good, but the question isn't whether Maru is good, it's whether he's the greatest of all time. Losira isn't greatest of all time.
On April 17 2019 04:23 fishjie wrote:edit: also taeja is a legend, and he carried liquid in their team leagues and absolutely killed it in weekenders. as an aside, liquid hero also had success in weekenders but not so much in GSL. but if you had to pick, i'd pick maru cause of GSL over taeja
I don't have to pick. I demand both.
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On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous. Well, Maru is one of the few who rarely traveled to tournaments abroad and back then most of those tournaments had to be considered inferior to GSL by far. Also in 2013-15 Maru won two Starleagues of GSL calibre, gathered 6 top 4 and additional 6 top 8 finishes in premier events (GSLs and similar calibre) and placed 2nd in the stacked IEM Taipei (losing to Life in a nailbiting close final). And after his aquisition by JAGW he went on to be the top Proleague player for 3 seasons straight. He was one of the most dominant, feared and successful forces and probably the most consistent player of that time.
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
Funny enough, I'm still not sure if I can call Maru GOAT because other players have achieved great things, too.
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On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous.
Most weekenders are outside of Korea so I think that is something to consider. Not that Maru shouldn't still have a few wins over his career in these tournaments but it is well known that Koreans don't like traveling in general and have a hard time with western food.
I think winning 4 GSLs in a row is absolutely the greatest accomplishment in SC2. The best players compete in GSL and the tournament is played over time so theoretically every player can bring their A game to each match. Being the best of the best while playing at the highest level (which again I think the preparation gives players an opportunity to play and come up with strats that are superior to what we see in weekenders) has to be weighed very heavily.
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