Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
Wow, calm down guys. Some people here (not especially you, xainon and Valm) are somewhat aggressive. Please step a bit back from your perspective. Given the data, I think it is perfectly fine to argue for Maru as GOAT or not as GOAT or perhaps as GOAT. It's really not easy. Please be fair: xain0n nowhere brought Serral into the GOAT discussion nor did he put WCS on the same level as Code S. I also think he's wrong but it's not that he's grasping weird ideas out of thin air. There is a reason why we have this poll and this discussion after all - probably because it's arguable.
If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
he lacks of some other biggest wins outside of GSL, his dominance in Korea and GSL league is undisputed but to be claim GOAT you need to bring absolutely dominance for the entire sc2 scene which Maru is still not succeed
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling.
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling.
yeha, what an asshole, he just calls premiers tournaments premier tournaments, while he should you use your weighing system of tournaments to judge players and form opinions. As should everybody else as well, of course!
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling.
yeha, what an asshole, he just calls premiers tournaments premier tournaments, while he should you use your weighing system of tournaments to judge players and form opinions. As should everybody else as well, of course!
While I agree that expecting others to just have the same subjective opinion as you isn't reasonable. His opinion really is if you break it down.
5 premier tournaments have finished so far this year, wcs america, wcs europa, GSL s1, WESG and IEM.
WCS EU top16: Namshar, Mana, Hateme, Uthermal, Dns, Hellraiser, Harstem, Gunfubanda, Serral, Reynor, Heromarine, Ptitdrogo, Elazer, Lambo, Showtime and Rail
But equal premier titles right, lets just count premier titles and what could go wrong?
Seriously you joked about it Xain0n but I would put Olimoleague as the harder tournament to win compared to the farce that is WCS EU. Its not even close lookup the players competing in Olimoleague it blows wcs eu out of the water, that wcs is a premier tournament doesn't make it worth shit.
Edit: I'm talking in the context of goat here, ofc winning wcs matters but winning one or three doesn't take you even a step closer to goat, olimoleague should matter more imo. Serral isn't even top 15.
On April 18 2019 14:21 Morbidius wrote: If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
Is there a maru fanboy's fantasy world ? When you say gsl is less competitive with arguments, it becomes "gsl is a shits show". What a poor way to refute an argument. Well, don't know what I can add, let's say you're right, gsl is the best cuz there are the letters gsl and gsl has never changed nor evolved ever cuz... Whatever, it's gsl right ? And Maru is the best cuz you like him and go trolling every thread with serral cuz he is foreigner.
Face the fact (and oh boy it's gonna hurt), 1 victory in weekender tournament in a +8 years carrer.
On April 18 2019 14:21 Morbidius wrote: If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
Is there a maru fanboy's fantasy world ? When you say gsl is less competitive with arguments, it becomes "gsl is a shits show". What a poor way to refute an argument. Well, don't know what I can add, let's say you're right, gsl is the best cuz there are the letters gsl and gsl has never changed nor evolved ever cuz... Whatever, it's gsl right ? And Maru is the best cuz you like him and go trolling every thread with serral cuz he is foreigner.
Face the fact (and oh boy it's gonna hurt), 1 victory in weekender tournament in a +8 years carrer.
The players that failed to qualify into the latest ro32 gsl. Dream, MC, Bunny, Taeja, Losira, Bomber, Kas, Sortof and Bratok. Pretty decent list of good players that is todays code A, its not like just anyone can just get into ro32 GSL.
Lets be real the players above could probably still go and make a RO8-RO4 finish in either of the WCS events. It might have gotten "easier" to get into the ro32 of GSL than it has been before BUT how hard it is to get into GSL doesn't matter for the ruling champ. The competitiveness of GSL ro16 is not easier than it has been before, its still basically the best players in the world duking it out, its not easier for Maru to make consecutive championships today than it was for say Rain, Dear or MVP. It just so happens Maru is the only player that managed to do it four times in a row, if you want to throw dirty words around and make personal attacks in posters instead of arguing actual points I can join in. You Maru hater, stop finding any excuse to write his achivements off as lesser just because you personally aren't a fan.
On April 18 2019 14:21 Morbidius wrote: If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
Is there a maru fanboy's fantasy world ? When you say gsl is less competitive with arguments, it becomes "gsl is a shits show". What a poor way to refute an argument. Well, don't know what I can add, let's say you're right, gsl is the best cuz there are the letters gsl and gsl has never changed nor evolved ever cuz... Whatever, it's gsl right ? And Maru is the best cuz you like him and go trolling every thread with serral cuz he is foreigner.
Face the fact (and oh boy it's gonna hurt), 1 victory in weekender tournament in a +8 years carrer.
Maru has 2 weekender wins, face the facts, champ. (I bet you're ignoring Asian Games)
But because he doesn't have enough weekenders it proves exactly what? GSL is superior to any tournament in the current system because it has the hardest qualification and the best players in there. If Blizzcon had foreigner-Koreans ratio more reflecting this we could have been discussing Blizzcon to it too(but then again, winning a WCS/Code S at the start of the year and locking yourself into a tournament while you can become bad...). IEM is closely second(and had the Europe - Korea connection would have been better it would have surpassed Code S IMO).
On April 18 2019 14:21 Morbidius wrote: If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
Is there a maru fanboy's fantasy world ? When you say gsl is less competitive with arguments, it becomes "gsl is a shits show". What a poor way to refute an argument. Well, don't know what I can add, let's say you're right, gsl is the best cuz there are the letters gsl and gsl has never changed nor evolved ever cuz... Whatever, it's gsl right ? And Maru is the best cuz you like him and go trolling every thread with serral cuz he is foreigner.
Face the fact (and oh boy it's gonna hurt), 1 victory in weekender tournament in a +8 years carrer.
Maru has 2 weekender wins, face the facts, champ. (I bet you're ignoring Asian Games)
But because he doesn't have enough weekenders it proves exactly what? GSL is superior to any tournament in the current system because it has the hardest qualification and the best players in there. If Blizzcon had foreigner-Koreans ratio more reflecting this we could have been discussing Blizzcon to it too(but then again, winning a WCS/Code S at the start of the year and locking yourself into a tournament while you can become bad...). IEM is closely second(and had the Europe - Korea connection would have been better it would have surpassed Code S IMO).
BTW Serral's career is 7 years long, jsut FYI for funzies.
This narrow victory over the great BBoongBBoong is not a premier, try again fan. It proves he is bad in a very important format in sc2,bad relative to others which is quite important for the supposed goat, you don't want to see it but it's a fact. As for Blizzcons or other tournaments, I actually see the runs made by the players rather than declaring unholy it with foreigner presence. And Serral is not part of the discussion, I don't want to deal with your obsession.
On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said.
Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on?
You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL.
Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously.
If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for.
I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS.
I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison.
Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling.
yeha, what an asshole, he just calls premiers tournaments premier tournaments, while he should you use your weighing system of tournaments to judge players and form opinions. As should everybody else as well, of course!
Never would call him an Ahole I don't know the guy... He is massively deluded though, or a troll.
So there are what 20 1st (premiere) football (soccer) leagues in Europe. All of them are ''premiere'' so in the best football club in history ranking I just count the titles of Dinamo Zagreb, Sparta Prague and Manchester United. What an awesome ranking I would get :D
Very similar principle. This is not something subjective its an objective truth. Now of course you are entitled to have your own opinion which is different from the objective truth, but it doesn't mean it's a good one. Most of the time its a dumb one, like his ranking system, like considering Taeja GOAT of Sc2, like claiming WCS has more quality and is closer to code S then before and I can continue.
Ok, let's wrap it up a bit in order to get at least some common ground and to slow down a little bit the harshness here.
Arguments brought for Maru being GOAT: - very consistent with many Ro8 and Ro4 finishes over the years and extremely good Proleague record (especially Season 2016) - more starleague titles than anyone else (6 - Inno is the closest with 4) - 4 GSLs in a row which is an feat of consistent greatness never seen before (nobody but Nestea managed to win even 2 GSLs back to back - in a time when we had 7 (!) GSLs a year compared to only 3 nowadays) and which shows that Maru is capable of staying on the very top trough multiple patches and varying phases of metagame
Arguments brought for Maru being pretty sure not GOAT: - the mere number of wins in premier events is lacking behind other players like Taeja, Life, MVP and Innovation - only one win in a weekender tournament which makes people question if Maru's skillset is just very specified for only one type of competition - his 4 back to back GSL-titles are interrupted by in some cases severe losses in other tournaments (being beaten by Stats in Ro4 of GSL vs the Word, being beaten by sOs twice in Ro8s, not making it out of groupstage of IEM, "only" getting 3rd in a not really stacked WESG)
Arguments brought for Maru being on par with other contenders for the GOAT-title: - Life and Inno may have more championships and have proven theirselves on almost any stage possible which gives them an advantage in this discussion - but Maru's consistency over the years is unmatched by Life and Inno who had some serious downs - also Maru's feat of 4 GSLs in a row is a sign of dominance over a long timeframe nobody else has achieved even by half which makes Maru catching up
I didn't include the "GSLs in 2013-2015 were more competitive and therefore harder" because there is no way to prove that and several arguments are opposing this view (Pros and Pro-Casters stating otherwise; the very top still being equally competitive; players not magically getting worse all of a sudden although still practising as much; LotV being mechanically more demanding).
I think the question is, which of the mentioned factors one weighs more than the others. I can understand all of the arguments made to some extend. This is probably why I opted for the boring middleground-option ("not sure but he has a claim"). I think Maru=GOAT sayers are undervaluing the very tough weekenders which do exist (like IEM, earlier Blizzcons and some other really stacked weekenders) and are partially overvaluing the preparation format as a greater test of skill rather than as a test of another skillset. At the same time I think that the Maru≠GOAT sayers are overvaluing quite some of the lesser weekenders and aren't grasping the insaneness of winning GSL 4 times in a row.
On April 18 2019 14:21 Morbidius wrote: If Code S is such an easy shitshow in 2019 as some people claim, why don't we ever have a foreigner winning it? Why do they all get crushed when the playoffs begin? Why do many excellent players (Taeja, sOs, Dark) have never won a single one? Surely they could do it once huh? Just 1/4th of what Maru managed? Should be pretty easy right?
Face the fact, GSL is still the best SC2 competition in the world by a mile, and the best GSL player is the best player.
Is there a maru fanboy's fantasy world ? When you say gsl is less competitive with arguments, it becomes "gsl is a shits show". What a poor way to refute an argument. Well, don't know what I can add, let's say you're right, gsl is the best cuz there are the letters gsl and gsl has never changed nor evolved ever cuz... Whatever, it's gsl right ? And Maru is the best cuz you like him and go trolling every thread with serral cuz he is foreigner.
Face the fact (and oh boy it's gonna hurt), 1 victory in weekender tournament in a +8 years carrer.
Maru has 2 weekender wins, face the facts, champ. (I bet you're ignoring Asian Games)
But because he doesn't have enough weekenders it proves exactly what? GSL is superior to any tournament in the current system because it has the hardest qualification and the best players in there. If Blizzcon had foreigner-Koreans ratio more reflecting this we could have been discussing Blizzcon to it too(but then again, winning a WCS/Code S at the start of the year and locking yourself into a tournament while you can become bad...). IEM is closely second(and had the Europe - Korea connection would have been better it would have surpassed Code S IMO).
BTW Serral's career is 7 years long, jsut FYI for funzies.
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.