Poll: is Maru the GOAT? - Page 10
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 19 2019 21:44 esdf wrote: dno bout goat, but 4 consecutive gsls gets him a claim at bonjwa at least Not really if he goes 1/9 outside of Code S meanwhile. | ||
stilt
France2633 Posts
On April 19 2019 21:14 Shuffleblade wrote: I don't Believe that whats going on here is recency bias, tell me what other player has historically won four consecutive GSL code Ss. What other feat has been done that rivals it? There simply is none, its not that it has been done Before but I forgot or for some reasons Marus run looks more magical than it is because its recent, if I'm wrong then tell me, what player has done what Maru has done? Excuses like recency bias just makes it seem like you are using any argument you can to devalue the opnions of those that doesn't agree with you. Ever Heard of rosy retrospection? Could also be called nostaliga bias, maybe thats why some people don't realize Marus the goat./s I do get the argument that Maru has underperformed in weekender tournaments during his reign and that that is an argument why hisspot at the top hasn't really been cemented. What I don't get is why his past failures Before his 2018 run would make him less great, just because he has had a long career where he didn't dominate right away that doesn't make him less great than if a genius would have come, walked the roay road 2018 and had the same results. At the end o MVPs career he was losing to foreigners in wcs, that didn't make him any less goat. I consider Maru goat already and that he has been knocked out by Stats and teammates multipletimes does make his position weaker but its not like he has been playing horribly. (besides iem) When you state you need to perform currently in order to be a goat, it's for sure a massive recency biais and as I will repeat myself, the time I enjoyed the most sc2 was in 2011, hots was infested with protoss. Btw, I actually deliver other arguments but countering all I said by "rosy retrospection" is not great. And I knew the french term but not the english one, thanks I guess. Gsl is not what it was. Some of you seems to have a fetish over those letters but Gsl is changing, evolving because there is always a context around it, a scene with players and structures. Winning it in 2010 is different than doing it in 2011 or today. This tournament is relative to the korean scene wealth. Aside blizzcon, it still is the best tournament for the players, prestige because koreans are still largely dominants. But the korean scene has suffered numerous blows. For god sake, a foreigner has been winning the wcs world, another a kespa cup and why ? Because Korean scene is losing players, gaming houses, teams, is region locked. Is it rosy retrospection to state it or is it fact ? Cuz he really looks like the latter to me. I don't know what the benefice is to ignore it unless you absolutely want to make Maru the goat. You might say I overrate these factors but it seems like while every maru/gsl fans are lamenting about the end of pl, kespa team, region lock, they refuse to acknowledge any of its effects. And as a result, we're seeing other foreigners than serral/neeb producing results who would have been considered as miraculous before and now it's considered at best as a surprise. Is that rosy retrospection ? Tell someone after Lilbow/Life or Nani/sk a foreigner is gonna won the blizzcon, none would have believed it without considering some blows against the korean scene. The poor foreigners at the time, they were getting crushed by korean in their own wcs, some of them could actually compete in Korea (calling MMA/Taeja b tier would be stupid) but overall, they were a bit below and still... In those 3 years, 2 foreigners entered and got beaten. Nowaday, the best koreans of their respective races are not necesseraly favorite, depending the mu. (in zvz, it might be 50/50 between the 3 great korean zergs soO, Dark, Rogue and serral I suppose), when did that happen before the region lock ? That's an interesting question but I think only Stephano in zvp came close from 2011-15 (2010 is a bit special but my point is still relevant I guess) What other feat rivals that? I don't know, getting 4 times in final in a way more competitive area ? Consistently winning tournaments ? Dominating a game with a larger talent pool maybe ? Well, you can think he is the best, that's ok after all but it's really not as clear. He didn't dominated right away while he was already at the top of his game because the game was more competitive and it was impossible to dominate it as he does today for anyone. Mvp's failures came at the end of career not while he was playing its best and had to adapt to another game. That's the major difference. And failure is relative, sure it was for him but for a guy who was at the twilight of his career with all his problems, he crushed Stephano (who was still the best foreigner at least in zvp/t on wcs eu s1 2013) and gave prime Inno a run for his money, that's not that bad even if yeah, he was a shadow of his former self. Lol, I feel weird defending a guy I always cheered against, who's next, sOs ? | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 19 2019 23:26 stilt wrote: When you state you need to perform currently in order to be a goat, it's for sure a massive recency biais and as I will repeat myself, the time I enjoyed the most sc2 was in 2011, hots was infested with protoss. Btw, I actually deliver other arguments but countering all I said by "rosy retrospection" is not great. And I knew the french term but not the english one, thanks I guess. Gsl is not what it was. Some of you seems to have a fetish over those letters but Gsl is changing, evolving because there is always a context around it, a scene with players and structures. Winning it in 2010 is different than doing it in 2011 or today. This tournament is relative to the korean scene wealth. Aside blizzcon, it still is the best tournament for the players, prestige because koreans are still largely dominants. But the korean scene has suffered numerous blows. For god sake, a foreigner has been winning the wcs world, another a kespa cup and why ? Because Korean scene is losing players, gaming houses, teams, is region locked. Is it rosy retrospection to state it or is it fact ? Cuz he really looks like the latter to me. I don't know what the benefice is to ignore it unless you absolutely want to make Maru the goat. You might say I overrate these factors but it seems like while every maru/gsl fans are lamenting about the end of pl, kespa team, region lock, they refuse to acknowledge any of its effects. And as a result, we're seeing other foreigners than serral/neeb producing results who would have been considered as miraculous before and now it's considered at best as a surprise. Is that rosy retrospection ? Tell someone after Lilbow/Life or Nani/sk a foreigner is gonna won the blizzcon, none would have believed it without considering some blows against the korean scene. The poor foreigners at the time, they were getting crushed by korean in their own wcs, some of them could actually compete in Korea (calling MMA/Taeja b tier would be stupid) but overall, they were a bit below and still... In those 3 years, 2 foreigners entered and got beaten. Nowaday, the best koreans of their respective are not necesseraly favorite (it's 50/50 between the 3 great korean zergs ad serral I suppose), when did that happen before the region lock ? That's an interesting question but I think only Stephano in zvp came close from 2011-15 (2010 is a bit special but my point is still relevant I guess) What other feat rivals that? I don't know, getting 4 times in final in a way more competitive area ? Consistently winning tournaments ? Dominating a game with a larger talent pool maybe ? Well, you can think he is the best, that's ok after all but it's really not as clear. He didn't dominated right away while he was already at the top of his game because the game was more competitive and it was impossible to dominate it as he does today for anyone. Mvp's failures came at the end of career not while he was playing its best and had to adapt to another game. That's the major difference. And failure is relative, sure it was for him but for a guy who was at the twilight of his career with all his problems, he crushed Stephano (who was still the best foreigner at least in zvp/t on wcs eu s1 2013) and gave prime Inno a run for his money, that's not that bad even if yeah, he was a shadow of his former self. Lol, I feel weird defending a guy I always cheered against, who's next, sOs ? I agree with most of the things you say. During beta and very early WoL foreigners were around(or considered to be) approximately 50-50 against korean but it never happened afterwards before region lock(you are underestimating Serral's odds against top korean Zerg in your example) However, do you think top pros magically crumbled in less than one year(from BlizzCon 2015 when Lilbow got roflstomped to 2016 when Showtime 2-0d the eventual champion Byun in the groupstages)? Legacy of the Void partially reset the skill cap and region lock allowed foreigners to grow; meanwhile, korean scene became thinner and thinner(that's why Code S was harder in the past) but the skill level at the top surely didn't decline. Maru is not bonjwa nor GOAT(yet, at least) but he is one hell of a player whose mechanichal prowess is simply undeniable, you cannot look at his games and say the opposite without lying; the same could be stated of Serral, have you watched his immaculate defense and his wicked multitasking? Foreignerland produced serious high level players who had to compete a lower amount of skilled koreans, definitely not koreans who had less skill than their predecessors(or their own earlier version), to win their titles. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20821 Posts
I can pretty much guarantee the only people who will be able to tell the difference, are the people who already know enough about the game to tell people that those players are up there in pure gameplay with S class Koreans. Stephano was really the last foreigner I had the feeling that he was at that level of equivalent play, rather than one who could maybe snipe a few good Koreans here or there. He didn't push it on and went to do other things with his life, there was a period where his strategical insight and mechanics for the time had him legit up at the top table, most observers if nothing else at the time felt at least his ZvP was outright just the best in the scene. As hyped as it was for example, Nani's GSL run was Nani (a real prep player btw) scraping through players who were not the absolute elite of Code S, and losing to Mvp one he ran into one. | ||
Moonerz
United States413 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8785 Posts
On April 20 2019 01:00 Moonerz wrote: Dunno why anyone is making a big deal out of Maru losing in the RO16 to Stats. Stats was knocked out of Code S immediately, Maru just won Code S. Now which player do you think was practicing harder for this match? Stats needed to show something here. Was an amazing series and honestly all we could ask for on the opening match of Super Tournament. Well it's the patern, and Maru was comming off 3 straight weeks of tvp practice where he was looking untouchable (altought it also mean he probably showed a lot of his build) and he had just a couple less day that Stats to practice since they got the bracket like a week before. And yes the series was great, probably the best of ST so far, but it's yet another time Maru wasn't able transpose his GSL dominance in another tournament. And of course there's no shame losing to Stats, but when talking about the greatest to ever touch the keyboard, these losses count. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20821 Posts
It does get irksome when his worst fanboys always come up with some kind of excuse for him any time he loses though, it also indirectly discredits anyone who ever beats him. | ||
Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On April 19 2019 23:26 stilt wrote: When you state you need to perform currently in order to be a goat, it's for sure a massive recency biais and as I will repeat myself, the time I enjoyed the most sc2 was in 2011, hots was infested with protoss. Btw, I actually deliver other arguments but countering all I said by "rosy retrospection" is not great. And I knew the french term but not the english one, thanks I guess. Gsl is not what it was. Some of you seems to have a fetish over those letters but Gsl is changing, evolving because there is always a context around it, a scene with players and structures. Winning it in 2010 is different than doing it in 2011 or today. This tournament is relative to the korean scene wealth. Aside blizzcon, it still is the best tournament for the players, prestige because koreans are still largely dominants. But the korean scene has suffered numerous blows. For god sake, a foreigner has been winning the wcs world, another a kespa cup and why ? Because Korean scene is losing players, gaming houses, teams, is region locked. Is it rosy retrospection to state it or is it fact ? Cuz he really looks like the latter to me. I don't know what the benefice is to ignore it unless you absolutely want to make Maru the goat. You might say I overrate these factors but it seems like while every maru/gsl fans are lamenting about the end of pl, kespa team, region lock, they refuse to acknowledge any of its effects. And as a result, we're seeing other foreigners than serral/neeb producing results who would have been considered as miraculous before and now it's considered at best as a surprise. Is that rosy retrospection ? Tell someone after Lilbow/Life or Nani/sk a foreigner is gonna won the blizzcon, none would have believed it without considering some blows against the korean scene. The poor foreigners at the time, they were getting crushed by korean in their own wcs, some of them could actually compete in Korea (calling MMA/Taeja b tier would be stupid) but overall, they were a bit below and still... In those 3 years, 2 foreigners entered and got beaten. Nowaday, the best koreans of their respective races are not necesseraly favorite, depending the mu. (in zvz, it might be 50/50 between the 3 great korean zergs soO, Dark, Rogue and serral I suppose), when did that happen before the region lock ? That's an interesting question but I think only Stephano in zvp came close from 2011-15 (2010 is a bit special but my point is still relevant I guess) What other feat rivals that? I don't know, getting 4 times in final in a way more competitive area ? Consistently winning tournaments ? Dominating a game with a larger talent pool maybe ? Well, you can think he is the best, that's ok after all but it's really not as clear. He didn't dominated right away while he was already at the top of his game because the game was more competitive and it was impossible to dominate it as he does today for anyone. Mvp's failures came at the end of career not while he was playing its best and had to adapt to another game. That's the major difference. And failure is relative, sure it was for him but for a guy who was at the twilight of his career with all his problems, he crushed Stephano (who was still the best foreigner at least in zvp/t on wcs eu s1 2013) and gave prime Inno a run for his money, that's not that bad even if yeah, he was a shadow of his former self. Lol, I feel weird defending a guy I always cheered against, who's next, sOs ? I never wrote you need to be be currently performing great to be goat o_o what are you even talking about, making things up now? Yes your argument about recency bias was the only thing I replied to because it was the only real argument you brought. You write you made a lot of other Points but you really didn't, you had some tangent about player x and z making miracle runs, how the past was better and so on. Nothing to really argue with here, if you want me to answer you then make Points to discuss around. Your post was basically just a long tangent. As to your current post wow you need to work on your self awareness. You say Maru fans are victims of recency bias, I call BS on that and satirically make the statement that your opinion is devalued due to rosy retrospection and you explode….. Was I right, is that why you read my upfront /s satire and reply as if it was a serious allegation with various levels of defense. My whole Point is lets NOT devalue eachothers opinion and actually agree that everyone has their own opinion and that is fine. You keep discussing why your opinion is valid and right while everyone that disagrees with you are wrong since we are victims of recency bias, stop being toxic and accept that your opinion isn't right and neither is mine they are just opinions. I disagree that the past code Ss werer harder, I Think most of your arguments are invalid and wrong. As I've said multiple times, the highest level of code S the RO16 is equally hard today as it was Before. The champion is Always seeded so any code S champion have had equal chance to do what Maru has done. That the pool is shallow actually doesn't effect the difficulty of this feat at all. So here we are, you Believe the past was this Amazing time when Everything was 10x times harder and more Amazing than today and I disagree, lets leave it at that. | ||
terribleplayer1
95 Posts
"First he has to win WCS, Blizzcon, HSC, IEM and Cheesadelphia!!!1 (36" Then I look at thread creator's name. Definitely trying to play down the fact Maru does poorly in no preparation scenarios. | ||
stilt
France2633 Posts
On April 20 2019 02:32 Shuffleblade wrote: I never wrote you need to be be currently performing great to be goat o_o what are you even talking about, making things up now? Yes your argument about recency bias was the only thing I replied to because it was the only real argument you brought. You write you made a lot of other Points but you really didn't, you had some tangent about player x and z making miracle runs, how the past was better and so on. Nothing to really argue with here, if you want me to answer you then make Points to discuss around. Your post was basically just a long tangent. As to your current post wow you need to work on your self awareness. You say Maru fans are victims of recency bias, I call BS on that and satirically make the statement that your opinion is devalued due to rosy retrospection and you explode….. Was I right, is that why you read my upfront /s satire and reply as if it was a serious allegation with various levels of defense. My whole Point is lets NOT devalue eachothers opinion and actually agree that everyone has their own opinion and that is fine. You keep discussing why your opinion is valid and right while everyone that disagrees with you are wrong since we are victims of recency bias, stop being toxic and accept that your opinion isn't right and neither is mine they are just opinions. I disagree that the past code Ss werer harder, I Think most of your arguments are invalid and wrong. As I've said multiple times, the highest level of code S the RO16 is equally hard today as it was Before. The champion is Always seeded so any code S champion have had equal chance to do what Maru has done. That the pool is shallow actually doesn't effect the difficulty of this feat at all. So here we are, you Believe the past was this Amazing time when Everything was 10x times harder and more Amazing than today and I disagree, lets leave it at that. You twisted my post so much it's not even funny. The recency biais might be an explanation why you're wrong but I don't base my argument of that. I am toxic because I disagree with you and you're offering no counter point and straight up say it's wrong while I just stated facts you refuse address (or you just said it doesn't matter, whatever) and summarize it by recency biais, yes sure. Btw, considering how are acting the maru's fans (hard to say a majority but they are vocals for sure) on some threads, I don't think you're legimate for called someone toxic, but whatever. I have nothing to add. | ||
Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On April 20 2019 02:54 stilt wrote: You twisted my post so much it's not even funny. The recency biais might be an explanation why you're wrong but I don't base my argument of that. I am toxic because I disagree with you and you're offering no counter point and straight up say it's wrong while I just stated facts you refuse address (or you just said it doesn't matter, whatever) and summarize it by recency biais, yes sure. Btw, considering how are acting the maru's fans (hard to say a majority but they are vocals for sure) on some threads, I don't think you're legimate for called someone toxic, but whatever. I have nothing to add. You are toxic because you keep devaluing the opinions of those that disagrees with you by saying we are merely victims of recency bias. You are not toxic for disagreeing with me, I dont Care what your opinion is as Long as you can discuss things in a civil maner. IF you actually have any arguments then bring them. | ||
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5811 Posts
On April 19 2019 21:47 Tchado wrote: If he becomes the first ever X5 winner , and he did it back to back.....that will prove it 100%. No it won't. Nobody doubts Maru's ability to win GSL. There is nothing meaningful about winning five times that wasn't achieved by winning it four times. Or three times, really. Maru winning every GSL of 2018 was every bit of the unparalleled, legendary achievement it was touted as. That's not why people are questioning his status. And any achievement that doesn't address the legitimate criticism of his results isn't going to convince anyone. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On April 20 2019 05:09 Fanatic-Templar wrote: No it won't. Nobody doubts Maru's ability to win GSL. There is nothing meaningful about winning five times that wasn't achieved by winning it four times. Or three times, really. Maru winning every GSL of 2018 was every bit of the unparalleled, legendary achievement it was touted as. That's not why people are questioning his status. And any achievement that doesn't address the legitimate criticism of his results isn't going to convince anyone. I recall back in the mists of time when Rafael Nadal was god on clay, he was missing grand slams on other surfaces, to be considered a GOAT contender rather than the best clay court player ever, people felt he had to put in those results elsewhere. Even if he’d won 12 French Opens, that was more of what he’d already done and didn’t answer the questions people had to begin with. So yeah I don’t think it matters if Maru wins another GSL all that much, he’s already got the crazy GSL record. If he tears up the weekenders in 2019 that’s way more relevant in filling holes than just adding to a stomping ground people accept as his already. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20821 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
dude like life,mary... etc winning champions while others race fellows just got dumpstered could make thier tournament wins much moar valuable than others it also spices up this thread even moar cuz i dont think its fucked up enough | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On April 20 2019 06:56 seemsgood wrote: lets not avoid the balance when talking about goat contenders tho dude like life,mary... etc winning champions while others race fellows just got dumpstered could make thier tournament wins much moar valuable than others it also spices up this thread even moar cuz i dont think its fucked up enough Also true, although speaking of spice hasn’t Terran been UP since GomTvT for some people? :p | ||
yhellothere12
46 Posts
1) Of course there's something meaningful if Maru wins a 5th time, rather than just four times. The more he wins the toughest tournament in the world, the more consistency and longevity there is to his legacy. What he's done is unprecedented, not to mention the manner and style in which he does it. 2) I think his performance outside of GSL is greatly exaggerated. WESG 2016 - 2nd place, only losing to TY in close 3-4 series WESG 2017- Won it WESG 2018 - 3rd place IEM XII - Top 4 2018 GSL vs the world - Top 4, losing to Stats 2018 Blizzcon - He looked good until he got murdered by sOs, but it was probably the worst track to the finals he could've gotten. IEM XIII - Ok he didn't make it out of his group. It wasn't good lol His performance outside of GSL has not been horrendous by any means. Plenty of amazing players have the same type of issue. soo won iEM and Innovation won WESG, yet they both failed to get out of their groups and into the quarterfinals of the latest GSL. There are so many competitions and plenty of skilled opponents for one person to get 1st place in everything. 3) As a general aside to discussions of bonjwa or GOAT in sc2... Let's not forget that this is much harder in sc2 than in BW. While BW has remained mostly unchanged, sc2 has gone through a number of significant expansions, patch changes, etc... Players have to worry not only about meta changes and people adapting to their playstyles, but also to patch changes that may drastically alter every single match up that is played. This makes it much more difficult to remain on top over longer periods of time. | ||
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 20 2019 06:59 Wombat_NI wrote: Also true, although speaking of spice hasn’t Terran been UP since GomTvT for some people? :p but best terrans after that era did also survive the brood infes era so it becomes neutral to me oh wait! i think i just figured out Mvp is a undisputed goat cuz blood infes was totally horseshit and dude handicapped himself with a broken arm like fucking sekiro and yet he still managed to win Mvp is da goat! suck it serral fans! i mean u xein0n ! | ||
mierin
United States4938 Posts
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