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On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
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On April 26 2019 04:35 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively.
As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories.
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France12467 Posts
Why so many pages about this?
GOAT is quite bullshit across games, Mvp was WoL GOAT, HotS was a bad game, and Maru is LotV goat.
The other GOAT candidate is INno who was a freaking monster across games and patches.
Foreigners wise it’s hard to compare Serral and Stephanie because Serral is in a far easier environment to succeed against KR players than Stephano was imo, since there are a lot less pro gamers nowadays.
Maru lack of weekender success isn’t an issue imo, because if you remember how young he is, you realize he can play so many years as long as the scene lives. Which makes him a better GOAT candidate than the old INno.
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Northern Ireland20734 Posts
On April 26 2019 08:17 Poopi wrote: Why so many pages about this?
GOAT is quite bullshit across games, Mvp was WoL GOAT, HotS was a bad game, and Maru is LotV goat.
The other GOAT candidate is INno who was a freaking monster across games and patches.
Foreigners wise it’s hard to compare Serral and Stephanie because Serral is in a far easier environment to succeed against KR players than Stephano was imo, since there are a lot less pro gamers nowadays.
Maru lack of weekender success isn’t an issue imo, because if you remember how young he is, you realize he can play so many years as long as the scene lives. Which makes him a better GOAT candidate than the old INno. Not sure I agree on Stephano, he was ahead of the curve in some ways strategically and stylistically.
Serral is having to beat the best of the best in a higher skill environment, purely by just outplaying them.
Stephano took some great scalps, I would have to look back but from my recollection at his peak he was a monster who could take out anyone ZvP, his other matchups weren’t quite as good and in an era were just beating any Koreans was a big deal maybe some of his results don’t stand direct comparison with Serral’s.
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Hi all, pleased to be back in the community.
I think the argument for Maru as GOAT has a few tarnishing factors, but he is certainly a very good player.
Unfortunately one can't overlook the amount of things in his favour environmentally at the moment. Add in the longevity (he has had far more opportunity than anyone else to accumulate trophies over the years). It is hard to say black and white he is Goat. But certainly he has found great success recently.
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On April 26 2019 07:08 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 04:35 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively. As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories. Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade.
One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14
Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
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This thread is a hate crime
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 26 2019 04:35 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively. Maybe my TY fangirl got strong while I was mentioning TY Bomber was a beast, but probably similarly to TY without notable achievements, but I loved his "marines solve everything if you have so many of them" attitude I cannot say anything wrong about him either Thankfully I'm not the only one who thinks similarly
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On April 26 2019 16:08 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 07:08 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 04:35 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively. As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories. Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade. One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14 Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals).
To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years).
While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL). Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11.
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On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 16:08 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 26 2019 07:08 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 04:35 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively. As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories. Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade. One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14 Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3% By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals). To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years). While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL). Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11.
Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 26 2019 19:20 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 16:08 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 26 2019 07:08 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 04:35 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively. As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories. Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade. One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14 Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3% By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals). To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years). While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL). Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11. Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018.
Maru wouldn't because he doesn't like to travel and most of the tournaments were outside of Korea. Same reason why we never* saw him in HotS away from Korea when he was objectively good but wasn't the top earning Korean(and was in a team that can fly him there). Check the last updates in the HSC thread.
Maru shined through the HotS(while he wasn't the brightest start he was one of the star Terrans there) and is shining now.
*wasn't never as never but more like rarely
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On April 26 2019 16:08 fronkschnonk wrote: Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
This statistic would probably make Serral the GOAT Not saying he is. He still has a long way to go
I do like the idea of splitting up the games (WOL, HOTS, LOTV) that somebody mentioned. Way easier to compare this way
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On April 26 2019 16:08 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 07:08 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 04:35 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively. As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories. Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade. One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14 Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3%
Serral won 6 of 14 in 2018 - 43%. Goat? Certainly year of the Goat.
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Northern Ireland20734 Posts
I miss having so many weekend tournaments that I couldn’t actually watch them all.
On the other hand it did spread the top players around, whereas with fewer tournaments weekenders have a Code S calibre of player way way down the field.
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On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 16:08 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 26 2019 07:08 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 04:35 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively. As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories. Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade. One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14 Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3% By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals). To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years). While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL). As I said: it depends on each tournament. Ofcourse there are and were weekenders which weren't to scoff at. But quite some (not all) Dreamhacks and HomestoryCups and Assemblies had mediocre player pools with often just 2-4 exceptional good players. A victory in specifically those weaker weekenders can't be valued higher than a GSL semifinal. And no - that's not based on sensation. I clicked through the brackets of all the premiers where especially Taeja participated. But you're right that it would be cool to give this thought a little more data as basis. Comparing over time shouldn't be that hard. While we probably all agree that players got better, the most interesting question is how they did at the time in comparison to the other players at the same time.
I don't think that the carreer lenght is a valid point. After all we just can compare what has been achieved, not what could've been achieved if circumstances would've been different. Also the most successful players of early SC2 competition weren't amateurs but mostly switched over from Broodwar after already having achieved a pro status. Players like Maru and Life just began their carreer in 2010 and as far as I know Maru still had to go to school in the first view years (just like Serral) and therefore wasn't fulltime.
On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote: Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11. That's a good point but still kind of affirms my argument. The next question would be, how tough was the competition at each of those tournaments. We can probably say that playerwise Maru had 8/9 tournaments with highest/near highest difficulty.
On April 26 2019 19:20 Z3nith wrote: Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018. Kind of. I just compared the best years. But also for the time argument I already stated that the carreer of others is artificially shortened considering they already competed in Broodwar.
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On April 26 2019 22:18 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 16:08 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 26 2019 07:08 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 04:35 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively. As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories. Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade. One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14 Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3% By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals). To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years). While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL). As I said: it depends on each tournament. Ofcourse there are and were weekenders which weren't to scoff at. But quite some (not all) Dreamhacks and HomestoryCups and Assemblies had mediocre player pools with often just 2-4 exceptional good players. A victory in specifically those weaker weekenders can't be valued higher than a GSL semifinal. And no - that's not based on sensation. I clicked through the brackets of all the premiers where especially Taeja participated. But you're right that it would be cool to give this thought a little more data as basis. Comparing over time shouldn't be that hard. While we probably all agree that players got better, the most interesting question is how they did at the time in comparison to the other players at the same time. I don't think that the carreer lenght is a valid point. After all we just can compare what has been achieved, not what could've been achieved if circumstances would've been different. Also the most successful players of early SC2 competition weren't amateurs but mostly switched over from Broodwar after already having achieved a pro status. Players like Maru and Life just began their carreer in 2010 and as far as I know Maru still had to go to school in the first view years (just like Serral) and therefore wasn't fulltime. Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote: Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11. That's a good point but still kind of affirms my argument. The next question would be, how tough was the competition at each of those tournaments. We can probably say that playerwise Maru had 8/9 tournaments with highest/near highest difficulty. Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 19:20 Z3nith wrote: Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018. Kind of. I just compared the best years. But also for the time argument I already stated that the carreer of others is artificially shortened considering they already competed in Broodwar.
I'll correct myself then, not sensations but your(or mine, which would be very different) evaluation of how much stronger certain opponent would be to justify a mere placement to be better than a victory; if we are speaking of competition of the same tier(despite some being evidently more prestigious or harder than others), winning titles is better than reaching semifinals. It would need to be proved otherwise, we could use the method I suggested(at the moment, however, I have no desire of doing that for hundreds of Premier tournaments); I think, too, that there should be adjustments to make in consideration of racial balance/representation(in favor or against the player whose performance we would like to evaluate) at the time the selected tournament was played. More time consuming than making a simple list with some commentaries.
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On April 26 2019 22:35 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 22:18 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 16:08 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 26 2019 07:08 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 04:35 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively. As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories. Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade. One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14 Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3% By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals). To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years). While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL). As I said: it depends on each tournament. Ofcourse there are and were weekenders which weren't to scoff at. But quite some (not all) Dreamhacks and HomestoryCups and Assemblies had mediocre player pools with often just 2-4 exceptional good players. A victory in specifically those weaker weekenders can't be valued higher than a GSL semifinal. And no - that's not based on sensation. I clicked through the brackets of all the premiers where especially Taeja participated. But you're right that it would be cool to give this thought a little more data as basis. Comparing over time shouldn't be that hard. While we probably all agree that players got better, the most interesting question is how they did at the time in comparison to the other players at the same time. I don't think that the carreer lenght is a valid point. After all we just can compare what has been achieved, not what could've been achieved if circumstances would've been different. Also the most successful players of early SC2 competition weren't amateurs but mostly switched over from Broodwar after already having achieved a pro status. Players like Maru and Life just began their carreer in 2010 and as far as I know Maru still had to go to school in the first view years (just like Serral) and therefore wasn't fulltime. On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote: Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11. That's a good point but still kind of affirms my argument. The next question would be, how tough was the competition at each of those tournaments. We can probably say that playerwise Maru had 8/9 tournaments with highest/near highest difficulty. On April 26 2019 19:20 Z3nith wrote: Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018. Kind of. I just compared the best years. But also for the time argument I already stated that the carreer of others is artificially shortened considering they already competed in Broodwar. I'll correct myself then, not sensations but your(or mine, which would be very different) evaluation of how much stronger certain opponent would be to justify a mere placement to be better than a victory; if we are speaking of competition of the same tier(despite some being evidently more prestigious or harder than others), winning titles is better than reaching semifinals. It would need to be proved otherwise, we could use the method I suggested(at the moment, however, I have no desire of doing that for hundreds of Premier tournaments); I think, too, that there should be adjustments to make in consideration of racial balance/representation(in favor or against the player whose performance we would like to evaluate) at the time the selected tournament was played. More time consuming than making a simple list with some commentaries. If you mean "same tier" as in "premier/major/minor event" like liquipedia lists tournaments then this discussion becomes kind of nonsensical. It is an undeniable truth that there are premier events with a big difference in difficulty. Here is one example: One of Byun's 3 premier wins in 2016 was WCA in which Patience was the only other Korean and Scarlett and Nerchio forfeited their spots. The remaining players were Toodming, Cyan, iAsonu, Ptitdrogo, Kelazhur and Jieshi. Winning this tournament was probably as hard as reaching CodeS Ro16 (if not Ro32). As you said, one would have to evaluate each tournament in order to make a more general statement for the achievements of each player. But my point still stands: apart from WESG Maru had no easy premier tournaments while other players had. How big this difference is, is open to evaluation. I don't get your point with "in consideration of racial balance/representation" though. This is hardly an objective measurement. As much as I like it to praise Maru for his last-terran-standing performances, those racial distributions are too random by far to take them as hard facts. There are very few periods of time in which a race was clearly ahead. (probably early GomTvT, late Broodfestor and mid-hots protoss dominance).
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On April 27 2019 04:21 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 22:35 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 22:18 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 16:08 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 26 2019 07:08 Xain0n wrote:On April 26 2019 04:35 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote: [quote]
Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY. Byun really doesn't belong in this list. One GSL and one Blizzcon and almost nothing else apart from 2 GSL semis doesn't compare to Maru's pre 2018 double starleague, his collection of semifinal finishes and 2 2nd places plus his proleague performance. MMA was above him at that time, I agree - but not as clear a you make it sound since many of his successes were against lower competition (but he had a great comeback 2014/15 which really surprised me). Some probably would also argue about Taeja, who had his 2 semis in GSL and won many weekender of which quite some tournaments weren't that stacked. Polt really is overrated in my eyes. He is great and all but many of his 1st places were achieved vs minor competition which are easily outweighed by Maru's many semifinals vs tougher competition. I won't say anything about Bomber because I love this guy. Mentioning TY in this discussion is a joke. He may be the 3rd best Terran skillwise (at least I value him at that level) but his achievements don't compare to Maru's quite objectively. As you once said, I respect your approach and your moderate statements; I agree that Polt is overrated but, apart from that, I don't find there is much room for discussion: we could politely reply to each other for years but I don't even remotely share your view of Code S placements being superior to international Premier victories. Well, this depends on each tournament. GSLs (and other korean starleagues) are consistently the toughest tournaments according to the level of the competing players. Very few weekenders can match that player pool. Only a handful of IEMs can be seen as having an even tougher player pool. But there were quite many weekenders where tough competition (GSL-level-tough) would often only start from Ro4 onwards. At least those are equivalent to any GSL Ro4 finish. Don't get me wrong: this isn't stated to belittle the greatness of some players. Byun, Taeja, MMA and TY have done some of the best terran play we ever saw and definitely were the very best at some points. But that doesn't translate into high-grade tournament wins automatically, especially if some of their tournaments weren't quite high-grade. One thing I forgot in the whole discussion: The great players of earlier times have an advantage in the GOAT discussion due to the vastly bigger number of big tournaments back then. This gave more opportunities to shine and is the reason why players in relative short timeframes of skill peak could win multiple events. In 2011 we had 33 premier events in 2012 43 (!) in 2013 33 in 2014 36 in 2015 22 in 2016 21 in 2017 19 in 2018 14 Just for fun (not for the sake of any argument - I just like statistics), let's compare the win percentage of premier tournaments of terrans in their best years: Maru won 4 out of 14 in 2018 -> 28,5% Mvp won 6 out of 33 in 2011 -> 18,1% Inno won 3 out of 19 in 2017 -> 15,7% Taeja won 5 out of 33 in 2013 -> 15,1% MMA won 3 out of 33 in 2011 -> 9% Bomber won 3 out of 36 in 2014 -> 8,3% By itself, this statement is arbitrary since it's based on sensations more than datas; I find it kind of silly the very idea of considering a fewer amount of losses better than a greater amount of victories, there should be one enormous difference between those tournaments for me to justify that and I mostly don't see it(for example, in HoTS, that could be true for WCS EU/NA titles compared to Code S in HoTS but it would never be true for Global finals). To appropriately rate tournaments, one should weight and compare, case by case, both the average rating of the field and of the path(we could use Aligulac for contemporary tournaments, it's harder to compare over time since ratings inflate during the years). While it is true there used to be a bigger amount of Premier tournaments earlier in Sc2, this is counterbalanced by career lenghts(Mvp, retiring in 2015, potentially skipped more tournaments than Inno starting in 2012; Maru has basically been around since the start of WoL). As I said: it depends on each tournament. Ofcourse there are and were weekenders which weren't to scoff at. But quite some (not all) Dreamhacks and HomestoryCups and Assemblies had mediocre player pools with often just 2-4 exceptional good players. A victory in specifically those weaker weekenders can't be valued higher than a GSL semifinal. And no - that's not based on sensation. I clicked through the brackets of all the premiers where especially Taeja participated. But you're right that it would be cool to give this thought a little more data as basis. Comparing over time shouldn't be that hard. While we probably all agree that players got better, the most interesting question is how they did at the time in comparison to the other players at the same time. I don't think that the carreer lenght is a valid point. After all we just can compare what has been achieved, not what could've been achieved if circumstances would've been different. Also the most successful players of early SC2 competition weren't amateurs but mostly switched over from Broodwar after already having achieved a pro status. Players like Maru and Life just began their carreer in 2010 and as far as I know Maru still had to go to school in the first view years (just like Serral) and therefore wasn't fulltime. On April 26 2019 19:11 Xain0n wrote: Moreover, when the density of competition was that high it happenened more than once for players to be forced to forfait tournaments whose schedules were overlapping; I find it more significant to consider the ones they actually participated in, not the overall available amount. This would result in Maru having won 4/9 tournaments in his best year compared to Mvp's 6/15, TaeJa's 5/14 and Inno's 3/11. That's a good point but still kind of affirms my argument. The next question would be, how tough was the competition at each of those tournaments. We can probably say that playerwise Maru had 8/9 tournaments with highest/near highest difficulty. On April 26 2019 19:20 Z3nith wrote: Also, Maru would have competed in most of these premier tournaments considering his career started in 2010. He has had as much if not more time to shine than the rest of them. So the argument that the GOAT contenders having more option to showcase their skill just as easily applies to Maru. It's not like he started playing on 2018. Kind of. I just compared the best years. But also for the time argument I already stated that the carreer of others is artificially shortened considering they already competed in Broodwar. I'll correct myself then, not sensations but your(or mine, which would be very different) evaluation of how much stronger certain opponent would be to justify a mere placement to be better than a victory; if we are speaking of competition of the same tier(despite some being evidently more prestigious or harder than others), winning titles is better than reaching semifinals. It would need to be proved otherwise, we could use the method I suggested(at the moment, however, I have no desire of doing that for hundreds of Premier tournaments); I think, too, that there should be adjustments to make in consideration of racial balance/representation(in favor or against the player whose performance we would like to evaluate) at the time the selected tournament was played. More time consuming than making a simple list with some commentaries. If you mean "same tier" as in "premier/major/minor event" like liquipedia lists tournaments then this discussion becomes kind of nonsensical. It is an undeniable truth that there are premier events with a big difference in difficulty. Here is one example: One of Byun's 3 premier wins in 2016 was WCA in which Patience was the only other Korean and Scarlett and Nerchio forfeited their spots. The remaining players were Toodming, Cyan, iAsonu, Ptitdrogo, Kelazhur and Jieshi. Winning this tournament was probably as hard as reaching CodeS Ro16 (if not Ro32). As you said, one would have to evaluate each tournament in order to make a more general statement for the achievements of each player. But my point still stands: apart from WESG Maru had no easy premier tournaments while other players had. How big this difference is, is open to evaluation. I don't get your point with "in consideration of racial balance/representation" though. This is hardly an objective measurement. As much as I like it to praise Maru for his last-terran-standing performances, those racial distributions are too random by far to take them as hard facts. There are very few periods of time in which a race was clearly ahead. (probably early GomTvT, late Broodfestor and mid-hots protoss dominance).
There is a difference in difficulty among different Premier events , that's true, the contentious is how big this difference really is: you generally say "very relevant", I instead go with "less than you might think"; Aligulac rating may help with that the way I suggested.
We are somehow missing the point, however, which had become discussing pre-2018 Maru being potentially better than MMA, Polt and the others listed(even TaeJa..hmm, your opinion entirely). In that case, we are not comparing a bigger amount of non korean premier victories with fewer korean titles, we are comparing non korean successes with korean placements(victories being more numerous, as well). The difference seems huge, to me; winning is simply almost always harder(not to mention most prestigious and probably more remunerative, just look at the absurdly top heavy prize distribution most of the korean tournaments have or had) than failing right before the triumph, even in case of fiercer competition; of course, placing highly in a Premier is better than winning a Major, but a Premier title should be achieved in one extremely weak environment(let's say, Copa America with 10x the prize or a top korean in a well paid full Chinese tournament) for me to consider it inferior to a placement in another Premier, even Code S; that's not the case for current WCS, and, for example, I'm not that convinced that MMA's victory over MC in WCS EU S1 2014 is a worse feat than soO's loss against Zest in Code S finals of the same season.
As for the racial adjustment, it's definitely not subjective; it is, however, hard to properly evaluate and might get outright skipped without much remorse in the majority of cases.
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I think we have come to a point where we can safely look at the poll and say more than half of people don't think Maru is GOAT, even though this poll was released immediately after his GSL victory (potentially creating recency bias).
My personal opinion is that Maru has found his greatest success in an era when he has insurmountable good fortune on his side to say categorically he is the Goat.
I also question a little bit whether GSL is the best indicator of skill anymore. Maru is a prime example of this - in weekenders which are the most level playing field really, he has been good but not great.
In the past, we used to consider 'prep-style' the decisive way to assess skill because SC BW and SC2 have traditionally been supported by massive team houses in South Korea. Starcraft was more of a team game - yes you needed to have good players, but you also needed to have good coaches, good practice partners, good player mix etc to win proleague.
It made sense that prep-style matches were the best because it brought together all of these elements in a melting pot. The teamhouse environment ensures maximum time for practice, the coach ensures the player is focused properly in training, the teammates help create and hone specific builds, and the player executes on the day.
And there were enough team houses that the vast majority of the scene could benefit from this set-up; almost no-one would be a sole trader by choice (which is why I don't buy the argument that no teamhouse can be good for players).
It's not the same anymore.
Jin-Air is the only true team house still operating, and the above create such a wide advantage for Jin Air players in prep-style tournaments over everyone else in the scene that it is truly hard to overlook. Complimented by the controversial format of GSL that gives past champions the best possible chance to reach ro8 again before anyone else... The odds are highly stacked for multi-championships.
If you think how a team like Incredible Miracle would have fared back in WOL if every other player didn't have a team house... MVP and Nestea would have 10 GSLs each!
That's why I think the long-held view that GSL means the best is becoming outdated, and truly the best indicators of skill are your 'endurance-style' big weekenders like BlizzCon, IEM etc. The team house advantage just doesn't apply as heavily - it's all down to the players' execution on the day.
This is a long-winded way of saying yes Maru has done phenomenally well recently (on par with Serral I'd say) but it is hard to overlook the fact that he has also had by far the best set of environmental conditions to make that happen as well. For me that means he still has work before he can be undisputed GOAT - a BlizzCon would certainly look good on his mantle.
However I understand a lot of the community still hold the opposite view and I respect that.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
Such a huge advantage, just look at Rogue, what an awesome 2019 is he having. Or sOs... JAGW house such advantegeous the won IEM. oh, no. They won WESG. Oh, no. Ah, the GSL...
Like, seriously? Again? What a huge advantage they have... (well, considering the best paying tourney in KOrea is Code S it makes kinda sense, but doesn't make sense for IEM or Blizzcon, right? )
Edit> On par with Serral? Serrral won 4 foreigner tournaments while being top 4 player!!! That's like celebrating Ronaldo being able to win against amateurs... c'mon. Code S at least still has the top players (Except Serral)
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