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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans.
At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral?
I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting.
Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019
Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback )
Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
On April 25 2019 22:14 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... No way on Earth Maru could have been a top 5 all time Terran before 2018. What about players winning more tournaments(especially more than one weekender in nine years) having played the game significantly less(having slightly lesser Code S success, this "four consecutive titles" is making everyone lose their mind)? Then get me your top5 of best Terrans evah before 2018. Inno, Mvp, Taeja? And give me 2 Terrans who were stable, winning and better than Maru. Maru was the best Terran of Proleague, won 2 starleagues, had deep runs in Code S. Maru was in the top5 before 2018. (I would name Maru & TY as the rest of the top5)
Edit> MKP, Bomber? Nah. Maybe MMA? But many of his triumphs come from foreigner league which isn't helping, his biggest Korean achievements are Blizzcon #2 and the Code S title. Polt is similar to MMA in my eyes.
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Seems like a lot of people think to be goat you have to be a perfect player.... someone has to be the goat. If you're saying it's not Maru who is it then? Inno? MVP?
I think Inno is a reasonable argument but I think Maru's peak is higher and therefore is the GOAT.
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I think he need almost a Blizzcon or IEM World Championship. But he has a claim in the discussion.
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On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja.
Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup.
I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know?
Edit: Lol, what? Not even counting Mvp, TaeJa and Inno, MMA, Polt, Bomber and Byun had better achievements than Maru before 2018, maybe even TY.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 25 2019 22:43 Moonerz wrote: Seems like a lot of people think to be goat you have to be a perfect player.... someone has to be the goat. If you're saying it's not Maru who is it then? Inno? MVP?
I think Inno is a reasonable argument but I think Maru's peak is higher and therefore is the GOAT. Also peak Inno lost to Maru in one of the fastest series Maru played
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Still soO has better reasons to be GOAT than Serral has now. I don't like this Serral arguments but when people bring him up I will bring him down (couldn't help myself)
Liquipedia page of Serral states: 2013-04-23 - 2014-02-20 Ence eSports 2014-02-24 - 2016-10-04 mYinsanity 2016-10-04 - Present Ence eSports Seems professional to me if you're in a professional team and competing in tournaments. Not sure how much professional he was back then but there's nothing to prove othewise. Maybe source your statement?
I don't deny Serral is good, he is very good, but don't bring him into this discussion, even Maru's achievements before 2018 are enough to turn that down.
Edit> bleh, double post, sorry.
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On April 25 2019 22:59 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Still soO has better reasons to be GOAT than Serral has now. I don't like this Serral arguments but when people bring him up I will bring him down (couldn't help myself) Liquipedia page of Serral states: 2013-04-23 - 2014-02-20 Ence eSports 2014-02-24 - 2016-10-04 mYinsanity 2016-10-04 - Present Ence eSports Seems professional to me if you're in a professional team and competing in tournaments. Not sure how much professional he was back then but there's nothing to prove othewise. Maybe source your statement? I don't deny Serral is good, he is very good, but don't bring him into this discussion, even Maru's achievements before 2018 are enough to turn that down. Edit> bleh, double post, sorry.
Man, you overestimate Maru(and korean tournaments) so much it's insane; you know I didn't bring Serral into this discussion but saying pre 2018 Maru(or even soO) would be closer to GOAT makes me laugh nevertheless.
As for Serral not playing full time before 2017, he says himself in almost every interview he released you can find on TL.net or Liquipedia.
By the way, international tournaments were filled with koreans before regions were locked; one could even argue the incredibly stacked Code S in 2013-2014 was of lower level than WCS finals since a decent amount of very strong players were playing in EU or NA(Bomber, for example, won one); you are even forgetting MMA won GSL Blizzard Cup in 2011 against DRG, look at the lineup. You would say one OSL, one SSL and great Proleague records are better than one Code S, one Blizzard cup, SEVEN other titles in Premier tournaments(three of which in EU, the Others being international tournaments) and a good GSTL record(22-13)?
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 25 2019 23:13 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:59 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Serral is not GOAT, that's for sure(simply not enough victories for this). However, pressing with him playing since 2012 is nonsensical, he was not playing full time until 2017 while everyone on your list already was a progamer; moreover, Maru's career is two years longer(and that's also why I think there are at least three players more suitable to be called GOAT). Maru has very good proleague stats, that's true, but he struggles to consistently win bo3+ when he doesn't have weeks to prepare for one opponent or matchup. I love soO, but reaching finals is not winning them, you know? Still soO has better reasons to be GOAT than Serral has now. I don't like this Serral arguments but when people bring him up I will bring him down (couldn't help myself) Liquipedia page of Serral states: 2013-04-23 - 2014-02-20 Ence eSports 2014-02-24 - 2016-10-04 mYinsanity 2016-10-04 - Present Ence eSports Seems professional to me if you're in a professional team and competing in tournaments. Not sure how much professional he was back then but there's nothing to prove othewise. Maybe source your statement? I don't deny Serral is good, he is very good, but don't bring him into this discussion, even Maru's achievements before 2018 are enough to turn that down. Edit> bleh, double post, sorry. Man, you overestimate Maru(and korean tournaments) so much it's insane; you know I didn't bring Serral into this discussion but saying pre 2018 Maru(or even soO) would be closer to GOAT makes me laugh nevertheless. As for Serral not playing full time before 2017, he says himself in almost every interview he released you can find on TL.net or Liquipedia. By the way, international tournaments were filled with koreans before regions were locked; one could even argue the incredibly stacked Code S in 2013-2014 was of lower level than WCS finals since a decent amount of very strong players were playing in EU or NA(Bomber, for example, won one); you are even forgetting MMA won GSL Blizzard Cup in 2011 against DRG, look at the lineup. You would say one OSL, one SSL and great Proleague records are better than one Code S, one Blizzard cup, SEVEN other titles in Premier tournaments(three of which in EU, the Others being international tournaments) and a good GSTL record(22-13)? That's the issue about foreigner land leagues and many players went there because they weren't good enough for Code S anymore. Let's face the reality, exception to those may be Bomber(is he though? ) or Polt(as he was playing where he was studying). And yes, I value OSL/SSL higher than foreigner land tournaments. Korean elitits and stuff like that, you know.
If you check some of the tournaments the line ups aren't that great, e.g. HSC and Dreamhack Moscow. Let's not fool ourselves back then we had Life, Innovation, Classic, Parting, Taeja... but hey, at Moscow was Serral
Edit> I would place MMA as #6 on my list, maybe #5 instead of TY, I like him more than TY in the end But we can argue endlessly about this, many people many tastes and stuff. And yeah, some tournaments MMA won were hard to win. e.g. IronSquid, GSL or that Blizz title I didn't mention.
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On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
I just wanted to chime in and state how flawed that statement is because the way you put it, it sounds like there is only 13% who think otherwise when in reality 45% of those 87% think he is a good contender, but not the only one and even put others above him. Does that make sense? Sounds confusing ^^'
Now I let deacon and Xain0n start this thread all over again. Pretty sure everything posted now was posted before somewhere in here xD
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On April 25 2019 23:42 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
I just wanted to chime in and state how flawed that statement is because the way you put it, it sounds like there is only 13% who think otherwise when in reality 45% of those 87% think he is a good contender, but not the only one and even put others above him. Does that make sense? Sounds confusing ^^' Now I let deacon and Xain0n start this thread all over again. Pretty sure everything posted now was posted before somewhere in here xD
Dude you should go look at the gun control thread, there's about 20 pages of content in there repeated over the course of something like 5 years.
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On April 25 2019 23:48 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 23:42 Harris1st wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
I just wanted to chime in and state how flawed that statement is because the way you put it, it sounds like there is only 13% who think otherwise when in reality 45% of those 87% think he is a good contender, but not the only one and even put others above him. Does that make sense? Sounds confusing ^^' Now I let deacon and Xain0n start this thread all over again. Pretty sure everything posted now was posted before somewhere in here xD Dude you should go look at the gun control thread, there's about 20 pages of content in there repeated over the course of something like 5 years.
Can't do that. I would start laughing uncontrollable and probably pee myself. I can take Gunlovers about as serious as Flatearthers
Edit: Might be overgeneralized: I mean those "I need a fullautomatic 1000 rounds per second rifle to defend my home" kinda guys
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On April 25 2019 23:42 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
I just wanted to chime in and state how flawed that statement is because the way you put it, it sounds like there is only 13% who think otherwise when in reality 45% of those 87% think he is a good contender, but not the only one and even put others above him. Does that make sense? Sounds confusing ^^' Now I let deacon and Xain0n start this thread all over again. Pretty sure everything posted now was posted before somewhere in here xD
Not really, it's pointless to even try to argue when one thinks pre-2018 Maru had better feats than MMA. I didn't say in this thread, before, how ridicolously underrated MMA is.
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On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... No way on Earth Maru could have been a top 5 all time Terran before 2018. What about players winning more tournaments(especially more than one weekender in nine years) having played the game significantly less(having slightly lesser Code S success, this "four consecutive titles" is making everyone lose their mind)? Then get me your top5 of best Terrans evah before 2018. Inno, Mvp, Taeja? And give me 2 Terrans who were stable, winning and better than Maru. Maru was the best Terran of Proleague, won 2 starleagues, had deep runs in Code S. Maru was in the top5 before 2018. (I would name Maru & TY as the rest of the top5) Edit> MKP, Bomber? Nah. Maybe MMA? But many of his triumphs come from foreigner league which isn't helping, his biggest Korean achievements are Blizzcon #2 and the Code S title. Polt is similar to MMA in my eyes.
It's interesting how you misread posts on purpose to fit your narrative :p
I don't put Serral over Innovation or Stats but over Maru. Additionally Maru (like mentioned above) is a progamer for a few years longer than Serral. Serral is consistent since his peak while Maru never was. Stats and Inno are on the same level or better than Serral and also consisistent players. They are contenders for a goat title. Maru isn't but maybe he can get there.
Edit: You're right that we cannot tell how Serral performs at preparational tourneys. What we know though is that he didn't fail yet because he didn't participate. In Maru's case we already know he failed many times in weekenders despite trying.
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On April 26 2019 00:51 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. On April 25 2019 22:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... No way on Earth Maru could have been a top 5 all time Terran before 2018. What about players winning more tournaments(especially more than one weekender in nine years) having played the game significantly less(having slightly lesser Code S success, this "four consecutive titles" is making everyone lose their mind)? Then get me your top5 of best Terrans evah before 2018. Inno, Mvp, Taeja? And give me 2 Terrans who were stable, winning and better than Maru. Maru was the best Terran of Proleague, won 2 starleagues, had deep runs in Code S. Maru was in the top5 before 2018. (I would name Maru & TY as the rest of the top5) Edit> MKP, Bomber? Nah. Maybe MMA? But many of his triumphs come from foreigner league which isn't helping, his biggest Korean achievements are Blizzcon #2 and the Code S title. Polt is similar to MMA in my eyes. It's interesting how you misread posts on purpose to fit your narrative :p I don't put Serral over Innovation or Stats but over Maru. Additionally Maru (like mentioned above) is a progamer for a few years longer than Serral. Serral is consistent since his peak while Maru never was. Stats and Inno are on the same level or better than Serral and also consisistent players. They are contenders for a goat title. Maru isn't but maybe he can get there. Edit: You're right that we cannot tell how Serral performs at preparational tourneys. What we know though is that he didn't fail yet because he didn't participate. In Maru's case we already know he failed many times in weekenders despite trying.
You're just cherry picking. Serral consistent since his peak? He's lost every tourney so far this year. Why don't we wait and see what happens before saying hes above Maru.
I guess you forgot about Inno's year long slump. Every player has bad results no one is perfect.
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I'll just jump in and say that I agree with Deacon that when comparing Maru with Serral even disgregardning all Marus achivements from 2018 and forward he is still greater than Serral.
Yes an OSL championship, a starleague championship, WESG silver medal 2016, IEM tapiep silver medal 2015, semifinals of GSL 3!! times, semifinals blizzcon, semfinals hotixcup and his outrageous PL record is faaaar and above Serrals small list of achivements vs korean opposition.
Sure Maru didn't WIN a lot of championships prior to 2018 but he was one of the top 10 players in the world and continuesly placed highly also in weekender tournaments. MMA is great, I think its hard to compare him to Maru pre 2018, they were both insanely good results wise. Compared with Serral its not even close though, Serrals peak last year was awesome to see and super impressive but its three tournaments we are talking about here with real korean S class competition thats it. His peak was high but so far it has been brief, for anyone thinking Maru didn't put up any good results pre 2018 besides his championships must also then think that Serral has totally flopped and not put up any decent result this year since Serral has managed semifinals, same as pre 2018 Maru did consistently.
Edit. Also I kind of disagree with the arguement that Maru hasn't shown his skill in weekender, even 2018, he won WESG he got semifinals at bot Katawice and GSL vs the world. Sure he didn't WIN them but come on, sure he ONLY made top 8 at blizzcon. That is kind of a middling result but semifinals at the hardest weekender tournaments of the year is that really a bad result? I consider it pretty damn good
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Northern Ireland20731 Posts
Serral’s peak was really high though in terms of pure gameplay, he hasn’t had the chance to show how he fares longevity wise.
He’s an odd player in the scene in that majority of opinion of him seems to fall into overrating or underrating the guy, with a more proportionate assessment seeming to be less common by far (IMO anyway)
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On April 26 2019 01:19 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 00:51 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. On April 25 2019 22:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... No way on Earth Maru could have been a top 5 all time Terran before 2018. What about players winning more tournaments(especially more than one weekender in nine years) having played the game significantly less(having slightly lesser Code S success, this "four consecutive titles" is making everyone lose their mind)? Then get me your top5 of best Terrans evah before 2018. Inno, Mvp, Taeja? And give me 2 Terrans who were stable, winning and better than Maru. Maru was the best Terran of Proleague, won 2 starleagues, had deep runs in Code S. Maru was in the top5 before 2018. (I would name Maru & TY as the rest of the top5) Edit> MKP, Bomber? Nah. Maybe MMA? But many of his triumphs come from foreigner league which isn't helping, his biggest Korean achievements are Blizzcon #2 and the Code S title. Polt is similar to MMA in my eyes. It's interesting how you misread posts on purpose to fit your narrative :p I don't put Serral over Innovation or Stats but over Maru. Additionally Maru (like mentioned above) is a progamer for a few years longer than Serral. Serral is consistent since his peak while Maru never was. Stats and Inno are on the same level or better than Serral and also consisistent players. They are contenders for a goat title. Maru isn't but maybe he can get there. Edit: You're right that we cannot tell how Serral performs at preparational tourneys. What we know though is that he didn't fail yet because he didn't participate. In Maru's case we already know he failed many times in weekenders despite trying. You're just cherry picking. Serral consistent since his peak? He's lost every tourney so far this year. Why don't we wait and see what happens before saying hes above Maru. I guess you forgot about Inno's year long slump. Every player has bad results no one is perfect.
With being consistent I mean being able to reach the last rounds of tournaments, which he did. He didn't get crushed or completely failed in early rounds like Maru did. Anyway, it's not about Serral. This thread is about the question of Maru being GOAT. Which he clearly isn't because there are much better korean players and probably (we don't know for sure because he isn't able to reach the later stages of weekenders) a few better foreigners.
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On April 26 2019 04:05 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 01:19 Moonerz wrote:On April 26 2019 00:51 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:34 deacon.frost wrote:On April 25 2019 22:20 Doink wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... Simple: Inno, Serral, Stats are some of the players to put above Maru. They have the ability to win tournaments without preparing for days. Maru apparantly hasn't. Untouchable GOAT? You can't be a GOAT if you're such an inconsistent Player as Maru is and get crushed in the early rounds of regular Tournaments. Serral? You must be joking, Serral is nowhere near the achievements of Inno, Maru, Stats or soO Serral plays from 2012, did literally nothing for 6 years and started to win in the 7th year where he won 3 weekenders with Koreans. At the same time we have here Innovation(Stats, Maru, soO... the list goes on) who was winning when you didn't know who Serral is. We have here players who were playing in Korea in the most top heavy Korean time we had, we have here players who were dominating Proleague. Where was Serral? I see you really want to turn this into Serral bashing. If you want to put Serral over Maru or Innovation let us show your reasons for doing so, it will be very interesting. Edit> Meh, wrong year, change that for 5 and 6 as the last year wasn't 2019 Edit 2> I would really appreciate to check the proleague statistics, Maru isn't as much preparational player as people make him, you can't prepare for all kill format or being an ace(although 2 rax isn't a preparation per se it was winning while you knew Maru will 2 rax but then he didn't 2 rax so ... Dune flashback ) Edit 3> Also we cannot tell if Serral is good at preparational tourneys, so what, he won weekenders, Taeja never won Code S which broke his back in GOAT contending and Taeja was a weekender beast. Especially Summer Taeja. On April 25 2019 22:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 25 2019 22:01 Vari wrote: 87% or so think he's at least a good contender for if not the outright owner of the title GOAT
idk who you'd put above him or why. if he hadn't come back to keep winning code S after losing some weekend style tourneys at the end of last year I'd say sure, you can argue he isn't the goat. but he did. if he wins 5 I don't even wanna hear any discussion hahaha. but after 4, reaching into a second calendar year, I feel he is the untouchable goat.
remember before this streak even happened he'd already proved himself as special by being the only Terran that could play TvP the way he did at the level he did. the 4 CONSECUTIVE GSL CODE S TITLES are icing on top of the player he'd already shown himself to be, a likely top 5 all time terran. then he won 4 code s titles in a row. so... No way on Earth Maru could have been a top 5 all time Terran before 2018. What about players winning more tournaments(especially more than one weekender in nine years) having played the game significantly less(having slightly lesser Code S success, this "four consecutive titles" is making everyone lose their mind)? Then get me your top5 of best Terrans evah before 2018. Inno, Mvp, Taeja? And give me 2 Terrans who were stable, winning and better than Maru. Maru was the best Terran of Proleague, won 2 starleagues, had deep runs in Code S. Maru was in the top5 before 2018. (I would name Maru & TY as the rest of the top5) Edit> MKP, Bomber? Nah. Maybe MMA? But many of his triumphs come from foreigner league which isn't helping, his biggest Korean achievements are Blizzcon #2 and the Code S title. Polt is similar to MMA in my eyes. It's interesting how you misread posts on purpose to fit your narrative :p I don't put Serral over Innovation or Stats but over Maru. Additionally Maru (like mentioned above) is a progamer for a few years longer than Serral. Serral is consistent since his peak while Maru never was. Stats and Inno are on the same level or better than Serral and also consisistent players. They are contenders for a goat title. Maru isn't but maybe he can get there. Edit: You're right that we cannot tell how Serral performs at preparational tourneys. What we know though is that he didn't fail yet because he didn't participate. In Maru's case we already know he failed many times in weekenders despite trying. You're just cherry picking. Serral consistent since his peak? He's lost every tourney so far this year. Why don't we wait and see what happens before saying hes above Maru. I guess you forgot about Inno's year long slump. Every player has bad results no one is perfect. With being consistent I mean being able to reach the last rounds of tournaments, which he did. He didn't get crushed or completely failed in early rounds like Maru did. Anyway, it's not about Serral. This thread is about the question of Maru being GOAT. Which he clearly isn't because there are much better korean players and probably (we don't know for sure because he isn't able to reach the later stages of weekenders) a few better foreigners.
Which foreigners are better than Maru? Which Korean player is "much" better?
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