On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
Clownish statement, Go4Sc2 is not a Premier tournament unlike WCS(whose level was in 2018 relatively closer to Code S' compared to the past). This has nothing to share with the current thread, in any of case, and it's based on subjective assesments of the tournaments.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
Clownish statement, Go4Sc2 is not a Premier tournament unlike WCS(whose level was in 2018 relatively closer to Code S' compared to the past). This has nothing to share with the current thread, in any of case, and it's based on subjective assesments of the tournaments.
Why is it so important that a tournament has premier in its name? I don't think it's anymore "clownish" than you overvaluing WCS to a ridicolous degree.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
Clownish statement, Go4Sc2 is not a Premier tournament unlike WCS(whose level was in 2018 relatively closer to Code S' compared to the past). This has nothing to share with the current thread, in any of case, and it's based on subjective assesments of the tournaments.
Why is it so important that a tournament has premier in its name? I don't think it's anymore "clownish" than you overvaluing WCS to a ridicolous degree.
Maybe it's not that ridicolous? How do you explain Serral's Player of the Year award? You have different ideas, that's ok. Your last statement regarding Go4Sc2 indeed is absurd.
serral is in the top 10 or pretty close, Mvp is def above Life, but below Inno and Maru considering he didnt play as much as didnt have as many shots, its a toss up between Maru and Inno at this point.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
Clownish statement, Go4Sc2 is not a Premier tournament unlike WCS(whose level was in 2018 relatively closer to Code S' compared to the past). This has nothing to share with the current thread, in any of case, and it's based on subjective assesments of the tournaments.
Why is it so important that a tournament has premier in its name? I don't think it's anymore "clownish" than you overvaluing WCS to a ridicolous degree.
Maybe it's not that ridicolous? How do you explain Serral's Player of the Year award? You have different ideas, that's ok. Your last statement regarding Go4Sc2 indeed is absurd.
Actually I agree with Charoisaur, his example is fitting. You say WCS is closer to GSL than before and that is true, but it still very far behind.
Also for everyone chanting "but Serral is there and therefore the tournament is hard" mantra, yeah? Well if WCS is hard because it has Serral then it must be pretty damn easy for Serral since he IS Serral and wont meet himself in a bracket. Besides Serral we have Reynor, Neeb, Special and Scarlett. All of those are below the highest tier of korean players therefore WCS is much easier tournament than code S (just looking at the players that are competing and not even going into format). Serral being there or not being there doesn't make a tournament easier or harder for Serral to win because he is himself how hard is that to grasp, if you want to argue WCS tournaments that are equally hard for Serral to win as GSL code S than use the players that are there besides Serral.
Edit: The fact that all foreigners besides Scarlett(? I think it was her) choose WCS when Blizzard forced the foreign players to choose between WCS and GSL says a lot. The reason, they don't want to miss blizzcon and WCS is so much easier so its safer to get points there than being in GSL. I mean are you seriously saying WCS is comparable to a Code S?
On April 17 2019 07:13 Dangermousecatdog wrote: By that measure there is no such thing as GOAT as by that measure all men have failed.
MVP and Innovation have both performed well in GSL and weekenders.
And both men have standed at times of challenge is to fail. The challenge to win is one where every player in the world has failed at some point or another.
On April 18 2019 06:18 ubikz wrote: I sincerely ask: is the crazy 2018 of Serral, the domination he displayed, enough to put him above Taeja or Polt in the GOAT discussion?
Probably not, to me.
GOAT has to involve longevity at least to some degree, although you can weight it more or less.
On pure absolute level of play though Serral was insane in 2018, and still is really.
I like to look at other sports in looking at things I guess in this domain. Ronaldinho in football was insane for a period, a relatively short period and he fell off for various reasons.
So I think he’s absolutely relevant in ‘best players you’ve ever seen’ discussions, in terms of pure peak form, but it’s hard to make a GOAT argument for him vs say, Messi
Serral is a weird player in that he’s seemingly hugely overrated and underrated by a bunch of people simultaneously.
On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous.
Well, Maru is one of the few who rarely traveled to tournaments abroad and back then most of those tournaments had to be considered inferior to GSL by far. Also in 2013-15 Maru won two Starleagues of GSL calibre, gathered 6 top 4 and additional 6 top 8 finishes in premier events (GSLs and similar calibre) and placed 2nd in the stacked IEM Taipei (losing to Life in a nailbiting close final). And after his aquisition by JAGW he went on to be the top Proleague player for 3 seasons straight. He was one of the most dominant, feared and successful forces and probably the most consistent player of that time.
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
Funny enough, I'm still not sure if I can call Maru GOAT because other players have achieved great things, too.
Still, his only good weekender tournament is a final during this period, you can add his non wins in SSL/GSL to give density to your argument but it's not like others players didn't have good placement without winning nor it contradicts my point. As for PL, yes he did well for sure, as Flash, soO, Zest and others. But saying he was the most dominent just like the biggest name is wrong, Zest was considered as the best players of 2014 overall, Life in his prime created a feeling of awe that Maru never matched at this time (hots), the same can be said for Innovation. He was clearly behind. Even Taeja who is peirceved as a very overrated player for his unholy wins in foreign tournaments has been time to time considered as more impressive with stellar play and iconic games. (vs rain, inno, soO, zest, life ext)
That said, it's ok to think Maru was the most consistent, you bring facts (considering he sometimes failed in GSL/SLL, only the pl results are really worth it to prove his super consistency imo even if I think it is quite overrated, some players who did well in PL didn't bring much results while others who didn't did a lot) but this is just wrong :
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
You forgot the loss of the gaming house with the kespa training regime which benefited to a lot of players. Or maybe the loss of this unleashed their potential ? It's quite a fantasy world but ok.
As for the rise of the level, it has been stated by Snute and there is some true obviously for the foreigner scene because in contrary to the korean scene it received fresh blood and rising players, Showtime, Neeb, Serral, Reynor, Denver, Uthermal, ptitdrogo to name a few. While I think Snute has troubled to adapt to lotv and declined after reaching his heights in hots (quite a normal career), so it must be nuanced, I agree on the fact the foreigner scene is doing better but I have no clue how you can say the same for Korea without fresh blood and loss of important structures. (pl, gaming house) It is as you said, a delusional idea.
Maru was and has always been the best of his teammates in prep tournaments, it's quite logic he is the one who beneficits the most of it now. It is a massive structural advantage, ofc, some don't want to recognize it but it still is. It's always annoying when a maru fan or tbf, anyone is saying "Gsl is more competitive cuz players are getting older", they always forgot to mention the lack of new players, the loss of gaming houses, coaches and structures of the kespa teams as if it was meaningless for the competitivity of the game.
Moreover, my other argument is the loss of players without any replacement, there are no new super competitive players in Korea since a very long time while it lost a lot because of retierement, military, matchfixing scandal and so on : to name a few who were top players : herO (at his top in 2015), Soulkey, Rain, Life, Byul, Parting, Dream, MMA they were others very good ones who could beat anyone : Bbyong, Curious, Supernova, Sacsri, True, Hydra just to name of few... So, you're basically saying a gsl who would add this guy in competitive condition would be less competitive ? Adding more good players is making the tournament less competitive? Wtf is that... Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players, there are no more real groups of death (remember Life, flash, parting, innovation ?), the statement gsl is more competitive is clearly against basic logic.
Finally, we all know a 18 months retierement is big (at least I hope...) and still, Taeja managed to give Serral a lot troubles at the hsc, how is it possible for a player whose the skills are supposedly outdated ? So, winning a gsl today has not the same value than winning one between 2013-15-16. That's all.
You're misunderstanding my points. I don't say that losing players and teamhouse infrastructure isn't a bad thing for overall competition. But players don't become worse all of a sudden because of that. We still have a really healthy Code S in terms of players with great skill. As further you go in the tournament the less a difference can be seen to earlier years with bigger player pools. What I say is: the top players still have enough other top players to be on a really high level and to still improve their skill. Just remember the Code S win of Gumiho. He said, the main reason for his win was, that he finally focused on pure mechanics in order to be competitive on the very top. This shows that players still can improve. Of course, if teamhouses still existed, the overall improvement could be even higher but GSL is not becoming easier because of that.
I think you're romantisizing the old times. Ro32 of GSL almost never had groups of death and usually were easy to predict. Upsets happened, yes, but that's still the case. Why? Because competition in GSL is still that high that almost anybody can make an upset on a good day. I mean - just look at the most recent Ro32: Gumiho and Cure advanced over Stats, Bunny over Solar, washed-up herO over Scarlett, Impact over Fantasy and Leenock, Patience over Zest. It's just not true that "Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players" - it happens all the time!
Taeja giving Serral a hard time was probably due to Serral not adapting as fast to the new patch back then as he also barely won vs Bunny and Innovation. I mean, Taeja also lost to Ptitdrogo, Mana, Solar and Cure at HSC and still didn't manage to qualify for anything in 2019 (yeah yeah - it's really easy now to qualify for GSL, isn't it?).
You're saying it is deluded to think the gsl is less competitive nowadays, I am saying it is deluded to think it isn't, I don't miss your point at all, then you're talking about skill increase/decrease which is not the same thing with the exemple of Gumiho who didn't do much in the period I mentionned before skyrocking as one of the best in 2017...
As for the degree of difficulty to qualify in GSL, it depends obviously but Noegrets managed to qualify and it was not pretty, maybe you're telling me he is on the same level as the guys I mentionned ?
And for the other examples stated, thanks for providing me some upsets (for herO, it' debeatable, he did a good run at katowice and Scarlett is not that consistent, same goes for impact vs fantasy), it happens for sure (thanks to MC, a dude from the old gard...) but is the elimination of TY and herO (who was in his best period) in the ro32 of the GSL season 2 code S 2015 an upset considering the winners are Byul/Maru ? Nop and this situation was not rare, it didn't happen all the time ofc but a super good player being eliminated in ro32 could be considered as normal as the group was really stacked.
Btw, Life in the GSL season 3 in 2014 was in code A (so, below Noregrets in 2017... Just saying that is funny), he won wcs world, made a dominant run in DH winter before winning GSL/iem taipei and ro4 in ssl after an epic match against Dream. The competition was so stacked, way more than today.
Finally Serral is not adapting... It's strange, now you try to find excuse for a non-korean... Btw, while Bunny gave him trouble in the groupstage, he 3-0 him by quite a margin in the bracket, despite a very bad start in game 1, he won without much trouble, it was nothing like against Taeja with super tense and amazing games.
Maybe I am romantisizing the old times (would be weird, my best time in sc2 was when Stephano was at his peak) but for sure there is some strong biais toward the current period. To my perception, it's as if Fantasy (backed by a team) was dominating the current BW scene and was called bonjwa for it.
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
Why value premier tournaments so highly? Nerchio won the most GO4SC2s I think he is in fact the GOAT. It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating GO4SC2 just as I say you overrate WCS in 2018.
Clownish statement, Go4Sc2 is not a Premier tournament unlike WCS(whose level was in 2018 relatively closer to Code S' compared to the past). This has nothing to share with the current thread, in any of case, and it's based on subjective assesments of the tournaments.
Another wrong and ridiculous statement. Seriously Aren't you a troll? Do you seriously think that wcs with Polt, MC, Hydra, MMA, Bomber, Hyun, Stardust, Stephano, even Inno/MVP was worse then this farce we have now?
Before region lock WCS was actually a quality tournament, still much lesser then code S, but the region lock just made it completely insignificant in comparison.
Only WCS player who can play on pat with good Koreans is Serral. And yes, there is less good Koreans as before and the foreigners are better, but they are still a milion miles off.
And that Serral nonsense is just icing on the cake. From the top of my head I can name 20 Koreans who are still above Serral in the GOAT ranking. Serral has 1 tier1 title, 1 tier 2 and 1 WESG final which I don't know where to place, probably tier 3. Then he has 4 tier dumpster titles which are completely insignificant if you really want to look for the greatest player of all time.
On April 17 2019 03:41 Elentos wrote: I'm pretty sure poll threads aren't tolerated on TL?
just came here to collect some salty tear for my awful oatmeal breakfast and was not disappointed also i would like to give cookies for noonius and EJ despite both are claiming terran is OP because maru making SCVs but! choosing to silence is an act of real men in this kind of situation shame on you xei0n...the point of arguing was never meant to satisfy oneself. otherwise the battle 's lost before the start
Maru is most likely the goat, winning four GSLs in a row is absolutely bonkers. But has any player defined the game like MVP? I still remember that gamebreaking match on Metalopolis; it was vs some OGS terran, I think Hyperdub or thebest, where he double expanded, and thus practically invented the terran macro game! He is the father of halt the terran strats out there! Maru is winning more, but for me MVP is on his very own pedestal.
On April 18 2019 09:30 kyllinghest wrote: Maru is most likely the goat, winning four GSLs in a row is absolutely bonkers. But has any player defined the game like MVP? I still remember that gamebreaking match on Metalopolis; it was vs some OGS terran, I think Hyperdub or thebest, where he double expanded, and thus practically invented the terran macro game! He is the father of halt the terran strats out there! Maru is winning more, but for me MVP is on his very own pedestal.
I mean its a lot more likely that the great players from the first year are two of the game are the ones that are going to define and change matchups rather than the great players when the game is 9 years old
On April 18 2019 06:18 ubikz wrote: I sincerely ask: is the crazy 2018 of Serral, the domination he displayed, enough to put him above Taeja or Polt in the GOAT discussion?
Not at all. Serral isn't even top 15 in the all-time GOATs imo. He has a lot of potential though given his age and how much he's already pulled off in just a year. Strongest factor going for Serral is that he's shown some of the greatest consistency we've seen from a player. His greatest failing is he doesn't have the same longevity as some of the other top GOATs, nor has he ever attempted GSL which is the ultimate proving ground.
Even Taeja, who's frequently criticized for not doing enough in Korea, still made several deep runs in the GSL. Not to mention he's won way more than Serral abroad. Granted, he never quite captured something as big as a Blizzcon and there's no denying Serral's Blizzcon win was legit against nothing but tough competition the whole way.
As for Polt, he's won a similar number of WCS (when they were tougher) to Serral but he's also a GSL champ with numerous other high placings over the years. He remained relevant and won things in every sc2 iteration.