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On April 18 2019 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT
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On April 18 2019 19:14 dankobanana wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT Not the best example. If he could prepare for anyone in this tournament, it's Stats. It was the first game, it was announced in time, and he's been practicing TvP anyways for the last 3 rounds of GSL code S, and he has been killing it.
If he would have lost in the 2nd round or the 3rd round, to whoever, say Gumiho or Dark then yeah, it's an "excuse", he couldnt prepare for his opponent and for that MU. He could prepare TvP and could prepare for Stats.
Now i couldnt watch the games sadly, so im not commenting on them before i catch up, but pointing out, that it's not the "weekender" style that got him here.
Championship hangover more likely
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On April 18 2019 19:14 dankobanana wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT
Did you jsut spoil the super tournament for me? I was gonna watch that when i got home form work. DAMN YOU lol
It was always a risk hanging out in this thread today anyway.
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On April 18 2019 19:18 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 19:14 dankobanana wrote:On April 18 2019 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT Not the best example. If he could prepare for anyone in this tournament, it's Stats. It was the first game, it was announced in time, and he's been practicing TvP anyways for the last 3 rounds of GSL code S, and he has been killing it. If he would have lost in the 2nd round or the 3rd round, to whoever, say Gumiho or Dark then yeah, it's an "excuse", he couldnt prepare for his opponent and for that MU. He could prepare TvP and could prepare for Stats. Now i couldnt watch the games sadly, so im not commenting on them before i catch up, but pointing out, that it's not the "weekender" style that got him here. Championship hangover more likely
He played great, the game 4 is really a must watch.
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On April 18 2019 17:10 MarianoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 15:14 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 18 2019 15:09 MarianoSC2 wrote:On April 18 2019 13:21 Xain0n wrote:On April 18 2019 11:51 ValM wrote:On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said. Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on? You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL. Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously. If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for. I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS. I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison. Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling. yeha, what an asshole, he just calls premiers tournaments premier tournaments, while he should you use your weighing system of tournaments to judge players and form opinions. As should everybody else as well, of course! Never would call him an Ahole I don't know the guy... He is massively deluded though, or a troll. So there are what 20 1st (premiere) football (soccer) leagues in Europe. All of them are ''premiere'' so in the best football club in history ranking I just count the titles of Dinamo Zagreb, Sparta Prague and Manchester United. What an awesome ranking I would get :D Very similar principle. This is not something subjective its an objective truth. Now of course you are entitled to have your own opinion which is different from the objective truth, but it doesn't mean it's a good one. Most of the time its a dumb one, like his ranking system, like considering Taeja GOAT of Sc2, like claiming WCS has more quality and is closer to code S then before and I can continue.
Mmm, I never said a single time I considered TaeJa GOAT, I already told that is a list and not a weighted ranking: it is meant to inform, not to rate.
Your example couldn't be more wrong, football championships are rated in a clear way by UEFA(so that harder leagues like Premier or Serie A have many more spots in Champions and Europa League; even Golden Foot is affected by that, goals count differently depending from the league the were scored in); we can safely know Rangers Glasgow titles don't count as much as Real Madrid's as Scottish Premier League's rating is inferior to La Liga's.
That you call me deluded is ironic after all your nonsense about weekly korean tournaments who pay out hundreds of dollars at best being superior to non korean Premier leagues.
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Jin Air Maru is the strongest. But Maru is not.
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On April 18 2019 19:24 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 17:10 MarianoSC2 wrote:On April 18 2019 15:14 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 18 2019 15:09 MarianoSC2 wrote:On April 18 2019 13:21 Xain0n wrote:On April 18 2019 11:51 ValM wrote:On April 18 2019 10:43 Xain0n wrote: Guys, I have to say this is wild, there are so many different discussions going on at the same time.
When I suggested fronkschnonk to create this poll I was thinking a vocal minority was calling Maru GOAT but it turns out they are instead a very significant part of TL users; I was wrong on that.
However, I find hard to believe that four consecutive Code S, no matter how incredibly impressive of a feat it is, seem enough for people to place Maru above objectively more accomplished korean players who all had significant success in korean tournaments(despite not as much as Maru who is instead lacking in numbers and international titles).
I tried to avoid to discuss of Serral this time but it just seems impossible; Serral above MVP in a GOAT list with just a single, almost perfect, year of triumphs is the narrow vision of one enthusiast fanboy just as placing him below players who have only a couple of Premier titles under their belts.
As for the WCS vs Code S argument, I can't understand why we are still speaking of it; I NEVER said WCS is as hard or as prestigious as Code S like you are implying half the time. I think, however, it is not one irrelevant tournament you can disregard calling it worse than Olimoleagues or slightly better than Go4Sc2; that's nonsense, you accuse me of being a troll while being trollish in first place. Our opinions are so distant a discussion is useless in this regards, there must be a base of shared ideas upon which it can develop which is missing(at least, respect for non korean regional Premier tournaments).
Why did you try and avoid talking about Serral? I think because he does not belong in this discussion yet and you would've just looked silly. Honestly, you have managed to look just that after everything you have said. Being a fan of somebody does not mean undermining somebody else's achievements and trying to argue that everyone believes the same. You said to me earlier that fans saying Maru is GOAT are a vocal minority. What was this opinion of yours exactly based on? You sound like a troll because you have only been trying to push what you believe in down everyone's throat. And you proved it again. You're acknowledging in the above post that you were wrong in saying a minority thought of Maru as GOAT. And yet again you go back to saying no matter how impressive is Maru's accomplishment I simply find it hard to believe. Each time you mention the phrase international success you are indirectly attacking the GSL. Despite how articulate you think you sound I cannot take anything you say seriously. If you cared to read all of my previous posts you would already know I look at achievements, and it's not to "avoid looking silly" but because I think myself it's silly to include Serral in a GOAT list. The discussion I tried to avoid was instead the one I abundantly spoke of, "Serral vs Maru in 2018"; that's not what this thread is for. I already stated I theorized Maru was being called GOAT by a vocal minority because I supposed it was similar to what happens with Serral's live thread: many posts are against him while every poll most of the people supports him; it was not the case with Maru's GOAT party that seems quite consistent so we could conclude the volume of comments is appropriate in regard of the actual representation. "Adults can agree to disagree" when opinions are based on subjective assessments of things or facts hard(or impossible) to quantify, such as to which degree Code S is superior to WCS. I posted that list of achievements for the usual GOAT contenders to instead present facts under the form of solid numbers that you can see the same way I do; what I find it hard to believe is that, the 45% of the voters in the poll are basically choosing the single most impressive achievement in a single competition in the history of SC2(Maru's four consecutive Code S titles) over objectively superior amount of titles, in a very decisive way: it's not even close, Maru is the uncontested GOAT for them. And we are not speaking here of WCS titles won by foreigners against GSL titles won by top koreans, we are speaking of the greatest korean players this game has ever seen winning impressive numbers of the most prestigious korean titles and international tournaments against the player who has the most korean titles(slightly more than the other contenders) with very little international success in comparison. Your problem is that you are absolutely clueless in rating the "premiere" tournaments. You completely disregarded the level of a tournament just took all the ones that are called premiere for some reason. Therefore your whole argument falls apart right at the beginning and everything you say afterwards is just complete gibberish, thus sounds like trolling. yeha, what an asshole, he just calls premiers tournaments premier tournaments, while he should you use your weighing system of tournaments to judge players and form opinions. As should everybody else as well, of course! Never would call him an Ahole I don't know the guy... He is massively deluded though, or a troll. So there are what 20 1st (premiere) football (soccer) leagues in Europe. All of them are ''premiere'' so in the best football club in history ranking I just count the titles of Dinamo Zagreb, Sparta Prague and Manchester United. What an awesome ranking I would get :D Very similar principle. This is not something subjective its an objective truth. Now of course you are entitled to have your own opinion which is different from the objective truth, but it doesn't mean it's a good one. Most of the time its a dumb one, like his ranking system, like considering Taeja GOAT of Sc2, like claiming WCS has more quality and is closer to code S then before and I can continue. Mmm, I never said a single time I considered TaeJa GOAT, I already told that is a list and not a weighted ranking: it is meant to inform, not to rate. Your example couldn't be more wrong, football championships are rated in a clear way by UEFA(so that harder leagues like Premier or Serie A have many more spots in Champions and Europa League; even Golden Foot is affected by that, goals count differently depending from the league the were scored in); we can safely know Rangers Glasgow titles don't count as much as Real Madrid's as Scottish Premier League's rating is inferior to La Liga's. That you call me deluded is ironic after all your nonsense about weekly korean tournaments who pay out hundreds of dollars at best being superior to non korean Premier leagues.
Taeja is still my favourite ever SC2 player but yeah, he ain't the greatest. He was just good for his time and played alot of entertaining games - as well as achieving lots of all-kills in BO1 team tournaments and other stuff that's great to watch.
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On April 18 2019 19:10 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 19:04 Harris1st wrote: Wow this thread is toxic!
Regarding the poll (though it may not be phrased very well)
We have 263 votes for Maru is GOAT and 293 votes of ppl think he is not there (yet) 24 votes think Maru is absolutely NOT Goat.
Pretty close if you ask me Just for information: in what regard is the poll not phrased very well?
3 of the possible answers are very similar / the same and are just there to divide the votes (even if unintentional) And ofc the bit trolling with Cheesadelphia But that's just my take
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GSL season is over and Maru magic gone but that`s been predictable
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 18 2019 19:14 dankobanana wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT Like he couldn't prepare for an opponent when he had 4 free days to prepare? This doesn't make sense, he knew who he's facing and he had the time, this just disproves what you wrote. He lost a game he could have prepared for... at least use something that makes sense, not failing at the only match in the weekend tourney you have the time to prepare for >< OMG
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Maru is GOAT - just look at how he crushed Stats today
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On April 18 2019 20:46 CoupdeBoule wrote: Maru is GOAT - just look at how he crushed Stats today
You can be GOAT and lose series 0-7, that's a title tied to achievements over time; I'm not saying Maru is, but that's not a valid point.
You cannot, however, be a bonjwa and drop out of ro16 right after winning your first tournament of the year(out of three).
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On April 18 2019 21:13 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 20:46 CoupdeBoule wrote: Maru is GOAT - just look at how he crushed Stats today You can be GOAT and lose series 0-7, that's a title tied to achievements over time; I'm not saying Maru is, but that's not a valid point. You cannot, however, be a bonjwa and drop out of ro16 right after winning your first tournament of the year(out of three). True, and you can be a Bonjovi without being the GOAT. Or the GOAT without ever being a Bonjwa.
Darn SC legacy gets confusing sometimes.
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On April 18 2019 20:05 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 19:14 dankobanana wrote:On April 18 2019 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT Like he couldn't prepare for an opponent when he had 4 free days to prepare? This doesn't make sense, he knew who he's facing and he had the time, this just disproves what you wrote. He lost a game he could have prepared for... at least use something that makes sense, not failing at the only match in the weekend tourney you have the time to prepare for >< OMG
Oh so, he even lost in a prepared match ? You bring super good arguments in order to prove Maru is the best for sure.
You cannot, however, be a bonjwa and drop out of ro16 right after winning your first tournament of the year(out of three).
Tbf, B-word has never be used in sc2.
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On April 18 2019 19:59 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 19:10 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 18 2019 19:04 Harris1st wrote: Wow this thread is toxic!
Regarding the poll (though it may not be phrased very well)
We have 263 votes for Maru is GOAT and 293 votes of ppl think he is not there (yet) 24 votes think Maru is absolutely NOT Goat.
Pretty close if you ask me Just for information: in what regard is the poll not phrased very well? 3 of the possible answers are very similar / the same and are just there to divide the votes (even if unintentional) And ofc the bit trolling with Cheesadelphia But that's just my take Well, I think there is a difference between "absolutely not" (= not even close), "he needs to win some more trophies" (= let him win a bit more and we can talk about it) and "not sure, but he has a claim" (= can't decide, he's probably on par with others). Well and the Cheesadelphia obviously was to make this a fun thing
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On April 18 2019 21:32 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 20:05 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 19:14 dankobanana wrote:On April 18 2019 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT Like he couldn't prepare for an opponent when he had 4 free days to prepare? This doesn't make sense, he knew who he's facing and he had the time, this just disproves what you wrote. He lost a game he could have prepared for... at least use something that makes sense, not failing at the only match in the weekend tourney you have the time to prepare for >< OMG Oh so, he even lost in a prepared match ? You bring super good arguments in order to prove Maru is the best for sure. Show nested quote +You cannot, however, be a bonjwa and drop out of ro16 right after winning your first tournament of the year(out of three). Tbf, B-word has never be used in sc2.
I see people calling Maru GOAT and bonjwa nevertheless.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
Well just because Deacon does quite like Maru doesn’t mean every post is to defend Maru
I agree with his point, it’s a bad argument to say Maru loses at weekenders because he can’t prep, and use as an example the match he knew about before the tournament. If your first game is guaranteed against Stats, outside of Gumigod the rest of the tourney is P and Z, you’re probably wise to be in good shape vP
Plus this tournament has a small pool of players and a bracket set in advance, some weekenders are way more volatile with round robin feeding into brackets, or double elim brackets or whatever.
Anyway Maru lost a tight series vs Stats, who is pretty bloody good last I checked. No shame in that I don’t think it means that much in the wider scheme of things.
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On April 18 2019 21:41 Wombat_NI wrote: Well just because Deacon does quite like Maru doesn’t mean every post is to defend Maru
I agree with his point, it’s a bad argument to say Maru loses at weekenders because he can’t prep, and use as an example the match he knew about before the tournament. If your first game is guaranteed against Stats, outside of Gumigod the rest of the tourney is P and Z, you’re probably wise to be in good shape vP
Plus this tournament has a small pool of players and a bracket set in advance, some weekenders are way more volatile with round robin feeding into brackets, or double elim brackets or whatever.
Anyway Maru lost a tight series vs Stats, who is pretty bloody good last I checked. No shame in that I don’t think it means that much in the wider scheme of things.
THis is the opposite of what I was saying. I was saying he is better at GSLs because he is good at prep - which is less of a factor in weekenders.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On April 18 2019 21:37 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 21:32 stilt wrote:On April 18 2019 20:05 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 19:14 dankobanana wrote:On April 18 2019 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:
I keep being completely ignored when I say this but the GSL tests a different set of skills to weekend tournaments. To be the GOAT, you at least need to show that you have a well rounded set of skills. Maru could just be a top level player who excels at preparation. The physical and mental challenge of a weekend tournament is very different.
agreed. time and time again (and today) maru has shown he does not have that skill. He is the best GSL player ever. But not GOAT Like he couldn't prepare for an opponent when he had 4 free days to prepare? This doesn't make sense, he knew who he's facing and he had the time, this just disproves what you wrote. He lost a game he could have prepared for... at least use something that makes sense, not failing at the only match in the weekend tourney you have the time to prepare for >< OMG Oh so, he even lost in a prepared match ? You bring super good arguments in order to prove Maru is the best for sure. You cannot, however, be a bonjwa and drop out of ro16 right after winning your first tournament of the year(out of three). Tbf, B-word has never be used in sc2. I see people calling Maru GOAT and bonjwa nevertheless. Yeah they’re just wrong, least on the bonjwa stuff.
Serral’s come closest IMO and he’s still miles away. If you swapped out one of those WCS wins for a GSL, and he won one or both of IEM/WESG, and won last WCS, maybe
Over a year of winning everything or close to it, plus winning a GSL. So both a longer winning span and a higher level tournament would maybe suffice.
At least for me the bonjwa benchmark is pretty high and borderline impossible to hit.
I only say Serral has come closest before people jump on me because he hit the benchmark of ‘winning everything’ for a period, not that his 2018 is necessarily more impressive than the achievements of others.
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