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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On April 18 2019 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 21:41 Wombat_NI wrote: Well just because Deacon does quite like Maru doesn’t mean every post is to defend Maru
I agree with his point, it’s a bad argument to say Maru loses at weekenders because he can’t prep, and use as an example the match he knew about before the tournament. If your first game is guaranteed against Stats, outside of Gumigod the rest of the tourney is P and Z, you’re probably wise to be in good shape vP
Plus this tournament has a small pool of players and a bracket set in advance, some weekenders are way more volatile with round robin feeding into brackets, or double elim brackets or whatever.
Anyway Maru lost a tight series vs Stats, who is pretty bloody good last I checked. No shame in that I don’t think it means that much in the wider scheme of things. THis is the opposite of what I was saying. I was saying he is better at GSLs because he is good at prep - which is less of a factor in weekenders. I mean true, I wasn’t responding to you, maybe I should use the quote function better.
I was saying it’s a bad argument to say Maru is bad at weekenders because lack of prep, and use the Stats game as more evidence, presumably the match he was able to prep for. So just echoing deacon really.
I agree I think weekenders test different skills and are super important, I recall too having the same arguments re Taeja lacking a GSL, albeit in the opposite direction.
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He is maybe a GOAT in the preparation style tournaments, totally underperforms in any other format.
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Well i dont want to take anything from Maru, but with the power of the gls winner at group selection he makes ridiculously easy group for himself every time while creating group of deaths. He lost to Bunny in Ro16 and Impact almost eliminated him What would have happened if he is in a group death instead?
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On April 18 2019 23:05 kajtarp wrote: Well i dont want to take anything from Maru, but with the power of the gls winner at group selection he makes ridiculously easy group for himself every time while creating group of deaths. He lost to Bunny in Ro16 and Impact almost eliminated him What would have happened if he is in a group death instead?
I said this in another thread. I worked out the average rank of his opponent for this code S based on korean players rankings from Aligulac and his opponent was an average rank of 15.X (can't remember exactly). It makes his job WAY easier in my mind, its essentially 2 easy picked groups then 3 actual games for a GSL
Hes been really impressive in his decision making etc and he has great prep but i think his team support him a lot with that?
To me this makes him hard to place, Hes defo the best Terran but i am not sure about the best overall player
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Maru is the GOATP - Greatest of All Time when Prepared
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A goat has to be consistent. So no, Maru is definitely no goat.
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On April 19 2019 01:38 Doink wrote: A goat has to be consistent. So no, Maru is definitely no goat. Damn, I thought to be the GOAT you only need to be better than anyone who ever played the game.
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On April 19 2019 04:12 DrunkenSCV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2019 01:38 Doink wrote: A goat has to be consistent. So no, Maru is definitely no goat. Damn, I thought to be the GOAT you only need to be better than anyone who ever played the game.
And consistency is a part of being better than everyone else.
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On April 19 2019 01:38 Doink wrote: A goat has to be consistent. So no, Maru is definitely no goat.
Maru is pretty consistent. He consistently wins GSL he enters and lose non-gsl tournaments. That's pretty consistent to me.
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Nah, not even close. Gets good results in decaying GSL, but practically falls apart in any other format. Lets see if he can beat Serral first, who is the current one.
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On April 19 2019 08:46 Starcloud wrote: Nah, not even close. Gets good results in decaying GSL, but practically falls apart in any other format. Lets see if he can beat Serral first, who is the current one.
Glad Serral is the goat after winning Homestory Cup and Blizzcon
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On April 19 2019 06:06 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2019 01:38 Doink wrote: A goat has to be consistent. So no, Maru is definitely no goat. Maru is pretty consistent. He consistently wins GSL he enters and lose non-gsl tournaments. That's pretty consistent to me.
You are basically saying he is consistent in losing.
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On April 19 2019 16:57 kajtarp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2019 06:06 phodacbiet wrote:On April 19 2019 01:38 Doink wrote: A goat has to be consistent. So no, Maru is definitely no goat. Maru is pretty consistent. He consistently wins GSL he enters and lose non-gsl tournaments. That's pretty consistent to me. You are basically saying he is consistent in losing.
and in winning
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On April 19 2019 08:46 Starcloud wrote: Nah, not even close. Gets good results in decaying GSL, but practically falls apart in any other format. Lets see if he can beat Serral first, who is the current one.
decaying GSL? Beat Serral first? In which universe do you live in?
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You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
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On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits.
For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever.
As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta.
I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates.
But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread)
Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it.
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On April 19 2019 19:31 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits. For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever. As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta. I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates. But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread) Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it.
Nah, region lock is the reason behind the rise of foreigners. Current top players' skill at playing the game cannot be doubted, Serral has nothing to do with the lack of depth in korean scene; I am convinced Code S was harder to win in the past as qualifiers and groupstages were much more stacked, but at the highest level(top 8) Code S certainly isn't easier than before. Downselling Serral is indeed devaluating Maru's legacy; you cannot be GOAT with just one year so Serral is far from being that, but it's not like he won because koreans suddenly became weak, his victories in 2018 are legit.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On April 19 2019 19:53 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2019 19:31 stilt wrote:On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits. For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever. As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta. I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates. But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread) Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it. Nah, region lock is the reason behind the rise of foreigners. Current top players' skill at playing the game cannot be doubted, Serral has nothing to do with the lack of depth in korean scene; I am convinced Code S was harder to win in the past as qualifiers and groupstages were much more stacked, but at the highest level(top 8) Code S certainly isn't easier than before. Downselling Serral is indeed devaluating Maru's legacy; you cannot be GOAT with just one year so Serral is far from being that, but it's not like he won because koreans suddenly became weak, his victories in 2018 are legit. What weakness there is in the Korean scene isn’t quality, it’s depth, indeed.
What Korea used to have over foreigners was that B/C grade Koreans could win foreign tournaments. The best foreigners couldn’t compete with the best Koreans. Which gradually changed over time to what we have today.
Code S hasn’t really changed all that much, there have always been players who are peaking just to qualify, those who might have a shot at winning it, and those who might have a good run to the Ro16/8
In terms of people who you’d consider able to actually win a Code S, it’s the same people really and they’re still there.
Serral has just improved his play to the level to compete with the best of Code S consistently, those guys haven’t got worse.
The level of play itself hasn’t dropped and Code S doesn’t need that many good players for that level to remain consistent. The difference is that it’s not the time where without hyperbole one could think the top fifty players in the world were Korean, and as a foreigner even qualifying for Ro32 was a huge gamble considering you had to move out to Korea for a while etc.
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On April 19 2019 19:31 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote: You posters coming here and being "lol goat out in ro16", besides the fact that it was against Stats. Who exactly are youposters thinking is goat? Because neither Life nor mvp is even here and Innovation didn't even qualify. I would say winning GSL and losing is RO16 is better than losing early in GSL and then not even qualifying for super tournament.
You can burn specific failures of Marus but if you don't offer a player that you think is the goat and that is actually getting better results than Maru currently you really just sound like hypocrits. For me, you're nitpicking on this fact in order to burry his other numerous failures in weekender tournaments. As for the goat discussion, there is no need for a player who are doing as good as him currently, my english is horrendous but it is called recency biais right ? (And like an enormous one for sure) Actually, if good players are not even there, it's actually an argue against him than for him. Anyway, Maru's failure is quite big for a guy who is supposed the best ever. As for players who did great and postulate for the title, there are Life/Inno/mvp. Well I have trouble for ranking mvp bc in 2011 the game was not refined at all but whatever, with Life it seemed like he cound accomplish miracles and win with sheer will, gsl s4 2012 is sth to watch (not for the broken bone narrative but because how he managed to deal with Rain who looked unstoppable and the BL/infest) just like the blizzcon 2015 in which Life triumphed until the final with tricks/all in/ deceptive and cold blooded play despite a shitty meta. I think Inno lacks a bit of a heroic run like this but he was just so dominant when he was winning, it compensates. But to be fair, I will always have troubled to say the guy who is dominating the current sc2 scene is the goat whatever he brings, Serral's rising can be interpretated as a genius foreigner who triumphs and blabla, I buy that, I like Serral, he is impressive but I think it reveals a decrease level too, we got Special in blizzcon ro4, neeb winning the kespa cup...This suddent rise is correlated to a lose of competitivity in the korean scene. (The factors have already be adressed in the thread) Funnily enough, the Maru fans who are spending a lot of time criticizing/insulting Serral and trolling every threads he is in are, by doing that, devaluating maru's legacy but they don't even realize it. I don't Believe that whats going on here is recency bias, tell me what other player has historically won four consecutive GSL code Ss. What other feat has been done that rivals it? There simply is none, its not that it has been done Before but I forgot or for some reasons Marus run looks more magical than it is because its recent, if I'm wrong then tell me, what player has done what Maru has done?
Excuses like recency bias just makes it seem like you are using any argument you can to devalue the opnions of those that doesn't agree with you.
Ever Heard of rosy retrospection? Could also be called nostaliga bias, maybe thats why some people don't realize Marus the goat./s
I do get the argument that Maru has underperformed in weekender tournaments during his reign and that that is an argument why hisspot at the top hasn't really been cemented. What I don't get is why his past failures Before his 2018 run would make him less great, just because he has had a long career where he didn't dominate right away that doesn't make him less great than if a genius would have come, walked the roay road 2018 and had the same results.
At the end o MVPs career he was losing to foreigners in wcs, that didn't make him any less goat. I consider Maru goat already and that he has been knocked out by Stats and teammates multipletimes does make his position weaker but its not like he has been playing horribly. (besides iem)
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dno bout goat, but 4 consecutive gsls gets him a claim at bonjwa at least
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