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There are two answers to this question in my opinion.
Is Maru the greatest of all time in the GSL? Without question. No one has neared the level of dominance in the GSL for such an extended period of time. Maru's complete and utter dominance in the GSL is historic, and can hardly even be debated.
Is Maru the greatest of all time, period?
Well, this is where it gets a little questionable. In weekend tournaments, Maru's results have been practically lackluster. A year ago, Maru placed 3-4th at IEM Katowice. 2 weeks later, he won WESG 2017. If he had kept this level of dominance in weekend tournaments since then, Maru would be without question the greatest player of all time.
However, he hasn't. A month later, he dropped in the Ro8 of Super Tournament 1. Another very respectable result came at GSL vs. The World in a semifinals finish, but he then went back to the round of 8 for ST2. The big one, though, came at Blizzcon, which we all know is the most important tournament of the year. Maru yet again dropped in the Ro8 of a major weekend tournament, and notably, for the second time in a month and a half to sOs, who while a **VERY** solid player, should not be taking out Maru with any level of consistency, even if they are teammates. Then, in his most disappointing finish yet, he failed to even make it out of the group stages of Katowice 2019.
Granted, he did come back to take third place at WESG 2018 shortly after Katowice, showing that he is at least still capable of deep runs in weekend tournaments. However, to be firmly considered the greatest of all time, dropping in the ro8 to sOs twice followed by getting knocked out in the group stages of Katowice simply cannot happen.
So my final answer to the question, is Maru the greatest of all time, period?
Maybe.
As it always has been in StarCraft 2, it just isn't possible to say for sure.
EDIT: Completely and absolutely forgot that he's already dropped in the ro16 of 2019 ST1. Still doesn't change my answer though.
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On April 20 2019 07:29 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 06:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 20 2019 06:56 seemsgood wrote: lets not avoid the balance when talking about goat contenders tho dude like life,mary... etc winning champions while others race fellows just got dumpstered could make thier tournament wins much moar valuable than others it also spices up this thread even moar cuz i dont think its fucked up enough Also true, although speaking of spice hasn’t Terran been UP since GomTvT for some people? :p but best terrans after that era did also survive the brood infes era so it becomes neutral to me oh wait! i think i just figured out Mvp is a undisputed goat cuz blood infes was totally horseshit and dude handicapped himself with a broken arm like fucking sekiro and yet he still managed to win Mvp is da goat! suck it serral fans! i mean u xein0n !
I guess you didn't follow all of my posts, did you? Never said Serral is a contention for GOAT(he's around top 10, to me), I have just(as usual) remarked how good he is and how dominant he was last year. I am a big fan of Mvp, he could very well be GOAT.
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On April 20 2019 05:20 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 05:09 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On April 19 2019 21:47 Tchado wrote: If he becomes the first ever X5 winner , and he did it back to back.....that will prove it 100%. No it won't. Nobody doubts Maru's ability to win GSL. There is nothing meaningful about winning five times that wasn't achieved by winning it four times. Or three times, really. Maru winning every GSL of 2018 was every bit of the unparalleled, legendary achievement it was touted as. That's not why people are questioning his status. And any achievement that doesn't address the legitimate criticism of his results isn't going to convince anyone. I recall back in the mists of time when Rafael Nadal was god on clay, he was missing grand slams on other surfaces, to be considered a GOAT contender rather than the best clay court player ever, people felt he had to put in those results elsewhere. Even if he’d won 12 French Opens, that was more of what he’d already done and didn’t answer the questions people had to begin with. So yeah I don’t think it matters if Maru wins another GSL all that much, he’s already got the crazy GSL record. If he tears up the weekenders in 2019 that’s way more relevant in filling holes than just adding to a stomping ground people accept as his already.
That is a cool analogy!
So if Maru = Nadal, guess it's pretty clear he is not GOAT
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Canada2764 Posts
He needs to win some weekenders (or at least go deep in them) first. He's the GSL GOAT but he isn't there yet outside of it.
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why does Maru want to be a goat?
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On April 23 2019 22:05 Hadronsbecrazy wrote: why does Maru want to be a goat?
Because goats can climb reeeeeeeaaaaally steep hills and be on top of the world
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On April 23 2019 21:51 Soularion wrote: He needs to win some weekenders (or at least go deep in them) first. He's the GSL GOAT but he isn't there yet outside of it. He alrealdy did that. I already posted this in another thread:
On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference. Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys. Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner.
But you probably meant "he has to win/go deep at more weekenders than he did so far".
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Canada2764 Posts
On April 23 2019 23:12 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2019 21:51 Soularion wrote: He needs to win some weekenders (or at least go deep in them) first. He's the GSL GOAT but he isn't there yet outside of it. He alrealdy did that. I already posted this in another thread: Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference. Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys. Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. But you probably meant "he has to win/go deep at more weekenders than he did so far". These are far from GOAT-tier placements, though. Three finals in 6 years, one championship. Not exactly a star-studded lineup. Plus he's routinely failed at the biggest of them (Global Finals, Super Tournament/KeSPA Cup, IEM Katowice).
He needs either one Global Finals championship or multiple IEM Katowice/Super Tournament tier championships to be the GOAT, imo.
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On April 24 2019 00:02 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2019 23:12 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 23 2019 21:51 Soularion wrote: He needs to win some weekenders (or at least go deep in them) first. He's the GSL GOAT but he isn't there yet outside of it. He alrealdy did that. I already posted this in another thread: On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote: [quote]
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference. Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys. Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. But you probably meant "he has to win/go deep at more weekenders than he did so far". Plus he's routinely failed at the biggest of them (Global Finals, Super Tournament/KeSPA Cup, IEM Katowice). the same applies to the only other goat candidate
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On April 24 2019 00:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 00:02 Soularion wrote:On April 23 2019 23:12 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 23 2019 21:51 Soularion wrote: He needs to win some weekenders (or at least go deep in them) first. He's the GSL GOAT but he isn't there yet outside of it. He alrealdy did that. I already posted this in another thread: On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote: [quote]
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote: [quote]
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference. Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys. Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. But you probably meant "he has to win/go deep at more weekenders than he did so far". Plus he's routinely failed at the biggest of them (Global Finals, Super Tournament/KeSPA Cup, IEM Katowice). the same applies to the only other goat candidate
Innovation is not the only other GOAT candidate, or, at least, he shouldn't be. In any of case, he won two IEM(even if not Katowice) and a GSL vs The World on top of WESG(Maru's only non korean success), so while Inno is not the player with the most "weekenders" titles, he at least won a decent amount.
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On April 24 2019 00:02 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2019 23:12 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 23 2019 21:51 Soularion wrote: He needs to win some weekenders (or at least go deep in them) first. He's the GSL GOAT but he isn't there yet outside of it. He alrealdy did that. I already posted this in another thread: On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote: [quote]
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference. Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys. Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. But you probably meant "he has to win/go deep at more weekenders than he did so far". These are far from GOAT-tier placements, though. Three finals in 6 years, one championship. Not exactly a star-studded lineup. Plus he's routinely failed at the biggest of them (Global Finals, Super Tournament/KeSPA Cup, IEM Katowice). He needs either one Global Finals championship or multiple IEM Katowice/Super Tournament tier championships to be the GOAT, imo.
I just caught up on your criterion that he at least has to go deep in some weekenders. He already did that. I don't think that the frequenzy of such achievements is a super important thing for the GOAT title. The GOAT title is (for me) firstly defined by the number of achievements or number of periods of dominance and I value as the second biggest factor consistency in which Maru perhaps is unmatched. Also almost all of his Ro4-runs were in super high calibre weekenders (Hot6ix (equivalent to ST/KespaCup), Blizzcon, WCS season final (equivalent to GSL vs The World), GSL vs The World, IEM Katowice). But I do agree that Maru still has to win a little bit more to achieve the GOAT title, being kind of on par with Inno/Life right now. They won more weekenders but aren't close to Maru's Starleague successes and both had quite some inconstistency in their carreers.
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Rofl, people seriously think it's better to win a few more week-enders in 7 years than 4 GSLs in a row ?
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Can't be goat if you're bopped out of Blizzcon in your first game against sOs
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On April 23 2019 21:35 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 05:20 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 20 2019 05:09 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On April 19 2019 21:47 Tchado wrote: If he becomes the first ever X5 winner , and he did it back to back.....that will prove it 100%. No it won't. Nobody doubts Maru's ability to win GSL. There is nothing meaningful about winning five times that wasn't achieved by winning it four times. Or three times, really. Maru winning every GSL of 2018 was every bit of the unparalleled, legendary achievement it was touted as. That's not why people are questioning his status. And any achievement that doesn't address the legitimate criticism of his results isn't going to convince anyone. I recall back in the mists of time when Rafael Nadal was god on clay, he was missing grand slams on other surfaces, to be considered a GOAT contender rather than the best clay court player ever, people felt he had to put in those results elsewhere. Even if he’d won 12 French Opens, that was more of what he’d already done and didn’t answer the questions people had to begin with. So yeah I don’t think it matters if Maru wins another GSL all that much, he’s already got the crazy GSL record. If he tears up the weekenders in 2019 that’s way more relevant in filling holes than just adding to a stomping ground people accept as his already. That is a cool analogy! So if Maru = Nadal, guess it's pretty clear he is not GOAT
Love this analogy.
Maru’s success at GSL kind of helps me evaluate Taeja a bit better. For so long I didn’t know what to make of Taeja, but now I recognize fully that weekender skill and prepared skill are not necessarily the same thing. Of course there’s going to be a ton of overlap, but at the end of the day, a player isn’t bad if they only perform at one or the other. They’re also not the GOAT though. 🐐
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On April 24 2019 08:45 Valyrian wrote: Can't be goat if you're bopped out of Blizzcon in your first game against sOs
That makes no sense whatsoever. Every GOAT candidate has stupid losses. StarCraft is a hard game with a large amount of randomness. Even the best players have dumb losses all the time And sOs is exactly the type of player you expect stupid losses against.
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On April 24 2019 00:58 DieuCure wrote: Rofl, people seriously think it's better to win a few more week-enders in 7 years than 4 GSLs in a row ?
No, people think one should win weekenders in addition to several GSLs. Like MVP did. No one doubts Maru can dominate a GSL format at this point, but the best starcraft player of all time should also be able to win the weekenders that doesnt allow for the same type of preparation.
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That's a weird way to spell MVP OP.
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On April 24 2019 16:00 FataLe wrote: That's a weird way to spell MVP OP.
I'm gonna be "that guy" here and remind you that the player is "Mvp". "MVP" was the team with Genius and DRG etc. Normally I wouldn't care, but your joke there doesn't really work if you use the wrong capitalization.
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Soo
Can we decide that Maru is not the GOAT (yet) and move on?
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On April 24 2019 17:36 Harris1st wrote:Soo Can we decide that Maru is not the GOAT (yet) and move on? Probably not as the poll implies that there is no real majority position in this issue. The answere lies in the valuation of the factors "numbers of premier wins", "numbers of starleague wins", "number of weekender wins", "consistency" and "back-to-back victories".
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