Poll: is Maru the GOAT? - Page 3
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RealityTheGreat
China564 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4748 Posts
On April 17 2019 12:20 CicadaSC wrote: i mean maybe, but would he still be the GOAT if he wasn't on a Kespa team, without the Kespa training regimen? It's a bit of an unfair comparison to pros who are doing this all by themselves. Inno for example, cited his reason for leaving Acer and rejoining SKT1 as because he did not perform as well without the rigor and guidance of a Kespa team. He found himself getting lazy. Or, asking the real question... if Maru was born with one hand.. will he be bonjwa? Its a bit of unfair the comparision between one handed players that need to choose between mouse or keyboard and players with two hands who can comfortably pick both. | ||
Parrek
United States893 Posts
On April 17 2019 06:08 MarianoSC2 wrote: How was he overshadowed by Serral? Maru won 3 top tourneys (4 if we want to count WESG where he actually totally crushed Serral) and Serral won 2. Serral looked more dominating overall but in terms of achievements Maru clearly had a better year. Serral looked better than Maru did last year. Serral not only looked great, but he had a real clutch factor that Maru definitely never had. Serral won no matter what; in dominant series, in ace matches, and in extremely high pressure situations. Maru usually straight crumbled if he didn't win. Heck, I'd still rate Serral's start to 2019 better than Maru's because Serral has only lost in ace matches to the winner of his three events this year. It seems the only thing that changed is Serral doesn't quite have the same insane clutch factor he had last year. In contrast, Maru won another GSL, but utterly crumbled at Katowice and again failed at WESG when things actually got tough. Maru doesn't seem to adapt well to new environments. He's almost like a ladder hero - amazing at home in his comfort zone, but doesn't do nearly as well when he's someplace he's not used to. Another thing to discuss: What really determines the skill of a pro? Is it purely how they do in preparation events? Is it how they play in weekenders? Is it how they adapt when things aren't perfect? Mvp is still considered one of the GOATs because in a meta incredibly against Terrans, and with a terrible injury, he still managed to win. He used his intellect and hit perfect timings and played godly mind-games to emphasize the advantages he had. Is that any worse than someone who wins only when he's comfortable, but is a god when he is? | ||
Parrek
United States893 Posts
On April 17 2019 15:57 Argonauta wrote: Or, asking the real question... if Maru was born with one hand.. will he be bonjwa? Its a bit of unfair the comparision between one handed players that need to choose between mouse or keyboard and players with two hands who can comfortably pick both. It's not really an unfair comparison. It's the same as Koreans being better than Foreigners. We kinda showed with the collapse of Kespa and Region Lock that the teamhouses were the main thing that made Koreans so godly. Couldn't Maru be the same way? He's still incredibly good, but there's few with the same resources to challenge him. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 17 2019 16:07 Parrek wrote: Serral looked better than Maru did last year. Serral not only looked great, but he had a real clutch factor that Maru definitely never had. Serral won no matter what; in dominant series, in ace matches, and in extremely high pressure situations. Maru usually straight crumbled if he didn't win. Heck, I'd still rate Serral's start to 2019 better than Maru's because Serral has only lost in ace matches to the winner of his three events this year. It seems the only thing that changed is Serral doesn't quite have the same insane clutch factor he had last year. In contrast, Maru won another GSL, but utterly crumbled at Katowice and again failed at WESG when things actually got tough. Maru doesn't seem to adapt well to new environments. He's almost like a ladder hero - amazing at home in his comfort zone, but doesn't do nearly as well when he's someplace he's not used to. Another thing to discuss: What really determines the skill of a pro? Is it purely how they do in preparation events? Is it how they play in weekenders? Is it how they adapt when things aren't perfect? Mvp is still considered one of the GOATs because in a meta incredibly against Terrans, and with a terrible injury, he still managed to win. He used his intellect and hit perfect timings and played godly mind-games to emphasize the advantages he had. Is that any worse than someone who wins only when he's comfortable, but is a god when he is? Did you like at least watch the Maru final games? Most impartantly - TY v Maru? Because that directly disproves what you've written about him. You mean that IEM where all the Terrans failed or the IEM where Serral go to RO8? I would love to introduce you to Maru's 2k18 where he didn't finish lower than RO8 and in half cases lost to his team mates. failure of WESG where he lost to the victor and got 3rd place. The same excuse you use for Serral 2k19? Who lost to soO(RO16 Code S) and Innovation(RO16 Code S) where Maru won the Code S? (and by the great Korean tradition now loses in the RO16 as soO and Innovation did ) Maru is considered by many GOAT because the current meta is against the Terrans! WHy the IEM has highest placed Terran in RO8? Why the GSL ST has 2 Terrans(one of whom is an invite) out of 16 players? Why is the map pool PvT favored? I don't know, you tell me. There's a reason why people say that Maru shines in Terran unfavored meta(e.g. the ZPCraft) Edit> Automaton - 56.6 Cyberforest - 63.4 Kings Cove - 47.2 Kairos Junction - 51.7 New repugancy - 45.6 Port Alexander - 53.6 Year Zero - 58.1 Source: Liquipedia | ||
Jockmcplop
United Kingdom8731 Posts
The problem is that the GSL tests a certain set of skills that are weighted differently to weekenders. Preparation is a skill in itself. With that in mind, he's surely the GOAT at GSL SC2, but clearly he isn't when it comes to weekenders, and that is still a part of the game. He needs to improve at that, so he's not the GOAT imo, just a potential GOAT. There's something missing from his game that he needs. Maybe its stamina and concentration over a long peroid of time (speculating) or some other quality that is only important for those weekend tournaments. | ||
Harris1st
Germany6164 Posts
Few discussion points: GSL is not the hardest tournament anymore from a purely playerbase perspective. International tournaments now have the better playerbase. True it still is something like 75% korea and 25% foreigner, but those 25% matter. That's why I would like to see him win IEM or Blizzcon. Also you can't use the argument Serral needs to play GSL to be the best and then in the next sentence defend Maru for not playing/ winning weekenders cause he doesn't like to travel. Makes no sense | ||
fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
On April 17 2019 16:51 Harris1st wrote: Maru is off to a good start, but not there yet. We'll see what 2019 brings us Few discussion points: GSL is not the hardest tournament anymore from a purely playerbase perspective. International tournaments now have the better playerbase. True it still is something like 75% korea and 25% foreigner, but those 25% matter. That's why I would like to see him win IEM or Blizzcon. Also you can't use the argument Serral needs to play GSL to be the best and then in the next sentence defend Maru for not playing/ winning weekenders cause he doesn't like to travel. Makes no sense Well, no. The only tournament for which this is true was IEM this year. Every GSL Ro16 is harder playerwise than Blizzcon and GSL vs the World. This can easily be seen when you look at IEM where only 2 out of Top12 where Foreigners. Serral was the big exception last year while apart from him we barely had foreigner in RO8 at international events (and it is questionable if we would have had the same amount of foreigner in Ro8 if the player pool weren't restricted to 8 players). | ||
Argonauta
Spain4748 Posts
On April 17 2019 16:51 Harris1st wrote: Also you can't use the argument Serral needs to play GSL to be the best and then in the next sentence defend Maru for not playing/ winning weekenders cause he doesn't like to travel. Makes no sense Nobody is saying that, he is not excused because he doesntl ike to travel. But if you have to pinpoint a reason why he porforms Ro4 or Ro8 instead of winning there, people can go with that hipothesis, but that being the reason it doesnt mean excuse | ||
Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On April 17 2019 16:08 Parrek wrote: It's not really an unfair comparison. It's the same as Koreans being better than Foreigners. We kinda showed with the collapse of Kespa and Region Lock that the teamhouses were the main thing that made Koreans so godly. Couldn't Maru be the same way? He's still incredibly good, but there's few with the same resources to challenge him. It is an unfair and totally irrelevant comparison, I could go on and talk about how different players excel in different environments, look at Byun, he got better after leaving a team. The most important factor here though is that if one player is dominating every single tournament (I'm not talking Maru here, just imagine a player doing what Maru did but more dominantly). Would you then say: "He isn't really the greatest ever because his dad is Flash and he grew up in a rts housefold" / "He isn't really the greatest ever because he is korean and started the game so young, he just had the best preconditions" / "He isn't the best ever because he is rich and is paying off lots of top players to play with him and have bought the best training equipment there is along with a personal coach" / "He is part of a teamhouse and a teamhouse is such a distinct advantage he should be banned from tournmanets for having too good resources compared to other players" I mean, its just ridiculous, his resources, his friends and training partners, you aren't less great because you have those. I'll agree that it makes everything cooler with stories like Byun and MVP but MVP would have been goat all these years even if he wouldn't have been injured and even though he was injured he still isn't goat right now because thats not what goat is about. Greatest of all time is not = The player that had the shittiest conditions that did the best, its simply the greatest player of the game. | ||
Harris1st
Germany6164 Posts
On April 17 2019 17:26 fronkschnonk wrote: Well, no. The only tournament for which this is true was IEM this year. Every GSL Ro16 is harder playerwise than Blizzcon and GSL vs the World. This can easily be seen when you look at IEM where only 2 out of Top12 where Foreigners. Serral was the big exception last year while apart from him we barely had foreigner in RO8 at international events (and it is questionable if we would have had the same amount of foreigner in Ro8 if the player pool weren't restricted to 8 players). It's pretty much 2/8 in every Ro8 in every international tournament the last 2 years. Also you can't say "no" and then go on and agree with me. That's not how discussions work ^^ On April 17 2019 17:38 Argonauta wrote: Nobody is saying that, he is not excused because he doesntl ike to travel. But if you have to pinpoint a reason why he porforms Ro4 or Ro8 instead of winning there, people can go with that hipothesis, but that being the reason it doesnt mean excuse I will hold you to that! Travel is NOT an excuse anymore | ||
Fango
United Kingdom8811 Posts
On April 17 2019 16:51 Harris1st wrote: Maru is off to a good start, but not there yet. We'll see what 2019 brings us Few discussion points: GSL is not the hardest tournament anymore from a purely playerbase perspective. International tournaments now have the better playerbase. True it still is something like 75% korea and 25% foreigner, but those 25% matter. That's why I would like to see him win IEM or Blizzcon. "International tournaments" so you mean Katowice? Even blizzcon only had like 10 elite players at the most. GSL vs The World was even less. And are you forgetting that players like Scarlett, Neeb, SpeCial, Lambo, Reynor etc have all competed in GSL? Yet none of them have done well except Scarlett making ro8 once. GSL has had every elite player except Serral compete there, it's superior to every international event except Katowice in that regard (even katowice usually has a few players missing so maybe not even that). I'd also say to go look at Maru's record vs international players. He has the best record of probably any sc2 player against them. He has both a trophy and 2nd place at WeSG, where he basically did nothing but 3-0/2-0 all the best foreigners. | ||
Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On April 17 2019 18:17 Fango wrote: "International tournaments" so you mean Katowice? Even blizzcon only had like 10 elite players at the most. GSL vs The World was even less. And are you forgetting that players like Scarlett, Neeb, SpeCial, Lambo, Reynor etc have all competed in GSL? Yet none of them have done well except Scarlett making ro8 once. GSL has had every elite player except Serral compete there, it's superior to every international event except Katowice in that regard (even katowice usually has a few players missing so maybe not even that). I'd also say to go look at Maru's record vs international players. He has the best record of probably any sc2 player against them. He has both a trophy and 2nd place at WeSG, where he basically did nothing but 3-0/2-0 all the best foreigners. Erm Neeb made top 4 season 3 last year, while I do agree GSL is the pinnacle and harder than any other tournament Neeb has really distuished himself there. | ||
Jockmcplop
United Kingdom8731 Posts
On April 17 2019 18:17 Fango wrote: "International tournaments" so you mean Katowice? Even blizzcon only had like 10 elite players at the most. GSL vs The World was even less. And are you forgetting that players like Scarlett, Neeb, SpeCial, Lambo, Reynor etc have all competed in GSL? Yet none of them have done well except Scarlett making ro8 once. GSL has had every elite player except Serral compete there, it's superior to every international event except Katowice in that regard (even katowice usually has a few players missing so maybe not even that). I'd also say to go look at Maru's record vs international players. He has the best record of probably any sc2 player against them. He has both a trophy and 2nd place at WeSG, where he basically did nothing but 3-0/2-0 all the best foreigners. Its not just about the quality of player though, there's a different set of physical and mental tests at a weekend tournament than at a GSL. | ||
Fango
United Kingdom8811 Posts
On April 17 2019 17:40 Shuffleblade wrote: Greatest of all time is not = The player that had the shittiest conditions that did the best, its simply the greatest player of the game. Conditions can still be a factor. For example Maru doing so well in 2013/2014 when terran was absolute shit, in imo greater than some players who won more but when their race was imba. Hell Maru's streak from back then should be a factor in the GOAT discussion but no one mentions it. He made playoffs in four seasons in a row (1st, ro4, ro8, ro4) despite how every other terran crashed and burned. Had balance been decent at the time he probably wins both those ro4s. It's also a mark against players like INno in these discussions. For the longest time he only won when terran was the best race. | ||
Fango
United Kingdom8811 Posts
On April 17 2019 18:20 Shuffleblade wrote: Erm Neeb made top 4 season 3 last year, while I do agree GSL is the pinnacle and harder than any other tournament Neeb has really distuished himself there. True I forgot about that. Neeb was imo the best foreigner at the time (better than Serral) and was probably a top 3 protoss in the world, maybe top 1/2 in PvZ. The fact he competed in GSL that season if anything adds to Maru's victory. Reynor and SpeCial were there as well. Literally all the best foreigners except Serral. | ||
fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
On April 17 2019 18:04 Harris1st wrote: It's pretty much 2/8 in every Ro8 in every international tournament the last 2 years. Also you can't say "no" and then go on and agree with me. That's not how discussions work ^^ You're mostly talking about tournaments in which 8 foreigners were guaranteed in Ro16. 2 foreigners in Ro8 wouldn't have happenend if this would've been tournaments with open qualifiers. In last year's IEM we only had 3 foreigners even making it into the Ro16 with Serral being the only one making it to the playoffs (quite successfully so). In GSL vs the World 2 of 3 foreigners who made it into the Ro8 did so on the back of beating relatively weak foreigners in Has and Kelazhur. At Blizzcon Special had to beat Nerchio in order to not get eliminated in the loser's match of the group stage before advancing to Ro8 after the decider's match (which was played greatly by him). I stand by my point: if you'd made open qualifiers you only would have 3 or 4 foreigners in the Ro16 and only one in RO8 most of the time (from there onwards anything is possible because Ro8 players in such tournaments are always theroretically capable of winning it all). This is why GSL still is harder playerwise than most international events with IEM being the only exception. | ||
Harris1st
Germany6164 Posts
On April 17 2019 18:17 Fango wrote: GSL has had every elite player except Serral compete there, it's superior to every international event except Katowice in that regard (even katowice usually has a few players missing so maybe not even that). Exactly my point. When all elite player (including Serral) play GSL regularly, then GSL will continue to be the hardest tournament to win. Until then, it's simply not | ||
Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On April 17 2019 18:38 Harris1st wrote: Exactly my point. When all elite player (including Serral) play GSL regularly, then GSL will continue to be the hardest tournament to win. Until then, it's simply not Are you saying WCS is the hardest tournament because Serral is there? You funny man Edit: So tell me then, which tournament is the hardest, because it sure as hell isnt IEM, Katawice, WESG or Blizzcon for all the reasons several posters have already outlined. | ||
Harris1st
Germany6164 Posts
On April 17 2019 18:42 Shuffleblade wrote: Are you saying WCS is the hardest tournament because Serral is there? You funny man No I was not. No idea why would read that into my statement. That's pure trolling EDIT: @fronkschnonk These are some fair points. I can accept these. AFAIK everyone can qualify for IEM, making it the hardest tournament playerbase | ||
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