|
Northern Ireland20821 Posts
Well sure, I did say they’re undervalued in the discussion.
I don’t think it balances out, it would explain someone winning less with less opportunities, but not them not winning tournaments they actually do go to.
I don’t think one can do a real definitive GOAT list for SC2 without a player that’s absurdly dominant because the scene has had so many changes in tournament structures, relative strength of fields, fragmentation of the scene etc.
That’s not even factoring in injuries and retirements, or how we weight early innovators vs perfect execution of the later period of the game, or metas of eras etc.
|
On April 18 2019 00:30 Wombat_NI wrote: Well sure, I did say they’re undervalued in the discussion.
I don’t think it balances out, it would explain someone winning less with less opportunities, but not them not winning tournaments they actually do go to.
I don’t think one can do a real definitive GOAT list for SC2 without a player that’s absurdly dominant because the scene has had so many changes in tournament structures, relative strength of fields, fragmentation of the scene etc.
That’s not even factoring in injuries and retirements, or how we weight early innovators vs perfect execution of the later period of the game, or metas of eras etc.
Yea sure, one should value how stacked the tournaments someone won were(Aligulac?), how hard was his path to victory(Aligulac too), somehow factor in meta being favourable/unfavourable at the moment of the victory and so on. Career's span and evolution have some relevance as well, in my opinion.
In any of case, as it should be quite evident merely looking at the numbers presented, to consider Maru undisputed GOAT you must be valuing korean tournaments incredibly high as opposed to international ones(or maybe it's just recency/Code S bias).
|
On April 18 2019 00:17 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 23:52 MarianoSC2 wrote:On April 17 2019 23:10 Xain0n wrote: Ok, here you have some helpful datas regarding the players concurring for the GOAT title(I am deliberately excluding accomplished and relevant ones like MMA, Polt and MC since they are rarely involved in the discussion). This is mostly based on "Premier tournament medalists", a page on Liquipedia; I am adding Major victories, career lenght(from the first to the last "result" on player's Liquipedia page, excluding Taeja's* after the military since no player is performing well after being discharged from the army) and a brief comment, while not mentioning placements a player has not reached(I won't write "zero second places", for instance); I am only considering results in individual tournaments.
TAEJA(Career span: 72 months*, still active): -11 Premier titles(4 Dreamhacks, 3 HSC, 2 Asus Rog, 1 IEM, 1 MLG); -2 second places(Dreamhack, Red Bull battleground); -1 third place(Dreamhack); -11 semifinals( 2 Code S, 2 IEM, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, Code A, HSC, WCS AM, MLG, Dreamhack).
He's the one with the most victories(deadly in the finals with his 11-2 score) and ro4 appearances in Premier tournaments; however, he is missing a korean title and the tournaments he won aren't the hardest on average. His wrists problems are probably the reason of his decay after 2014.
LIFE(Career span: 53 months): -10 Premier titles(2 Code S, 2 IEM, 2 MLG, WCS Global final="BlizzCon", GSL Blizzard Cup, Dreamhack, Iron Squid); -4 second places(2 Dreamhack, WCS Global finals="BlizzCon", Team Liquid's SL); -6 semifinals(Code S, StarLeague, KeSpa Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, Asus ROG); -3 Major titles(Kung fu Cup, The Big One, Ritmix RU);
Two code S victories mixed in with the most prestigious international tournaments resulting in a double Triple Crown; a bonjwa-like run in 2012/2013 with 5/8 premier tournaments won in five months. He matchfixed and was rightfully banned a few months after being a map away from his second BlizzCon.
MVP(Career span: 45 months): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, BlizzCon, World Cyber Games, GSL World Cup="GSL vs the World", IEM, MLG, WCS EU); -3 second places(2 Code S, Code A); -5 semifinals(Code S, WCS Season finals, Blizzard Cup, IEM, MLG); -1 fourth place(MLG); -2 Major titles(Gainward, Team Ace Invitational).
Great success in GSL added to the most important international titles leading to two Triple Crowns; he had the single best year(2011, 6/15 Premier plus 2 Major and several minors) in non region locked Sc2. He was forced to retire relatively early due to crippling issues at his back.
INNOVATION(Career span: 81 months, still active): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, 2 IEM, WESG, GSL vs the World, WCS Season finals, StarLeague); -2 second places(Code S, Dreamhack); -1 third place(MLG); -6 semifinals(Code S, OSL, GSL Super Tournament, Dreamhack, Asus Rog, MSI beat it); -1 fourth place(Dreamhack); -4 Major titles(HSC, Destiny I, Wardi TL's map contest, VSL).
Very strong achievements in Korea(GSL results comparable with Mvp's and one StarLeague) and good international results; he's the one with the most Major victories on top of that.
MARU(Career span: 103 months, still active): -7 Premier titles(4 Code S, OSL, StarLeague, WESG); -2 second places(WESG, IEM); -1 third place(WESG); -9 semifinals(4 Code S, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, GSL vs the world, IEM, Hot6ix Cup); -1 Major title(Asia Starcraft League).
The best achievements in korean tournaments(the only "korean Triple Crown", most Code S victories and all consecutive) with very limited international success; he's the one with the least titles(in this list) but sports a very dominant run in 2018(almost bonjwa-like despite partially overlapping with Serral's). He is currently the highest earner.
LOL... So much work, and so little value. GSL/Blizzcon has the same value as HSC/Asus Rog/WESG? Then lets also count Proleague. Counting that Taeja is completely out of the equation and Maru is again, the strongest. And shouldnt we also count monthly Olimoleagues or Leifeng? They are much more "premiere" than some tournies in your list in terms of competition. At this point I am honestly just surprised that you did not list Serral there I did not decide what is a Premier tournament and what is not, you can't complain with me; tell Liquipedia xd. This one is a list, weighting the titles is arbitrary(and you certainly aren't the fittest one with all this Olimoleague babbling); Serral hasn't won enough to figure on this list. And no, I am not only looking at numbers, just read the comment. Also, including team league results is a questionable decision; Proleague wasn't as integral as Sc2 as it was to BW. In any of case, Life(21-15 and one All Kill), Mvp(10-11), TaeJa(10-4, two AK) and Innovation(12-2, one AK) played in GSTL(I handpicked the numbers so those might be wrong). Maru(79-39, one AK, 7-5 ace) and Innovation(75-41, three AK, 4-4 ace) both played in Proleague with very good results even if none of them truly is the best Proleague player.
And for the record, if we exclude the disaster of the 2011-2012 BW/SC2 hybrid league where Inno went 0-6 in SC2,
Maru: 79-39 = 66.9% Innovation: 75-35 = 68.2%.
People also forget that at the end of WOL during broodlord/infestor Innovation was considered the best terran
|
On April 18 2019 00:17 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 23:52 MarianoSC2 wrote:On April 17 2019 23:10 Xain0n wrote: Ok, here you have some helpful datas regarding the players concurring for the GOAT title(I am deliberately excluding accomplished and relevant ones like MMA, Polt and MC since they are rarely involved in the discussion). This is mostly based on "Premier tournament medalists", a page on Liquipedia; I am adding Major victories, career lenght(from the first to the last "result" on player's Liquipedia page, excluding Taeja's* after the military since no player is performing well after being discharged from the army) and a brief comment, while not mentioning placements a player has not reached(I won't write "zero second places", for instance); I am only considering results in individual tournaments.
TAEJA(Career span: 72 months*, still active): -11 Premier titles(4 Dreamhacks, 3 HSC, 2 Asus Rog, 1 IEM, 1 MLG); -2 second places(Dreamhack, Red Bull battleground); -1 third place(Dreamhack); -11 semifinals( 2 Code S, 2 IEM, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, Code A, HSC, WCS AM, MLG, Dreamhack).
He's the one with the most victories(deadly in the finals with his 11-2 score) and ro4 appearances in Premier tournaments; however, he is missing a korean title and the tournaments he won aren't the hardest on average. His wrists problems are probably the reason of his decay after 2014.
LIFE(Career span: 53 months): -10 Premier titles(2 Code S, 2 IEM, 2 MLG, WCS Global final="BlizzCon", GSL Blizzard Cup, Dreamhack, Iron Squid); -4 second places(2 Dreamhack, WCS Global finals="BlizzCon", Team Liquid's SL); -6 semifinals(Code S, StarLeague, KeSpa Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, Asus ROG); -3 Major titles(Kung fu Cup, The Big One, Ritmix RU);
Two code S victories mixed in with the most prestigious international tournaments resulting in a double Triple Crown; a bonjwa-like run in 2012/2013 with 5/8 premier tournaments won in five months. He matchfixed and was rightfully banned a few months after being a map away from his second BlizzCon.
MVP(Career span: 45 months): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, BlizzCon, World Cyber Games, GSL World Cup="GSL vs the World", IEM, MLG, WCS EU); -3 second places(2 Code S, Code A); -5 semifinals(Code S, WCS Season finals, Blizzard Cup, IEM, MLG); -1 fourth place(MLG); -2 Major titles(Gainward, Team Ace Invitational).
Great success in GSL added to the most important international titles leading to two Triple Crowns; he had the single best year(2011, 6/15 Premier plus 2 Major and several minors) in non region locked Sc2. He was forced to retire relatively early due to crippling issues at his back.
INNOVATION(Career span: 81 months, still active): -9 Premier titles(3 Code S, 2 IEM, WESG, GSL vs the World, WCS Season finals, StarLeague); -2 second places(Code S, Dreamhack); -1 third place(MLG); -6 semifinals(Code S, OSL, GSL Super Tournament, Dreamhack, Asus Rog, MSI beat it); -1 fourth place(Dreamhack); -4 Major titles(HSC, Destiny I, Wardi TL's map contest, VSL).
Very strong achievements in Korea(GSL results comparable with Mvp's and one StarLeague) and good international results; he's the one with the most Major victories on top of that.
MARU(Career span: 103 months, still active): -7 Premier titles(4 Code S, OSL, StarLeague, WESG); -2 second places(WESG, IEM); -1 third place(WESG); -9 semifinals(4 Code S, WCS global finals="BlizzCon", WCS Season finals, GSL vs the world, IEM, Hot6ix Cup); -1 Major title(Asia Starcraft League).
The best achievements in korean tournaments(the only "korean Triple Crown", most Code S victories and all consecutive) with very limited international success; he's the one with the least titles(in this list) but sports a very dominant run in 2018(almost bonjwa-like despite partially overlapping with Serral's). He is currently the highest earner.
LOL... So much work, and so little value. GSL/Blizzcon has the same value as HSC/Asus Rog/WESG? Then lets also count Proleague. Counting that Taeja is completely out of the equation and Maru is again, the strongest. And shouldnt we also count monthly Olimoleagues or Leifeng? They are much more "premiere" than some tournies in your list in terms of competition. At this point I am honestly just surprised that you did not list Serral there I did not decide what is a Premier tournament and what is not, you can't complain with me; tell Liquipedia xd. This one is a list, weighting the titles is arbitrary(and you certainly aren't the fittest one with all this Olimoleague babbling); Serral hasn't won enough to figure on this list. And no, I am not only looking at numbers, just read the comment. Also, including team league results is a questionable decision; Proleague wasn't as integral as Sc2 as it was to BW. In any of case, Life(21-15 and one All Kill), Mvp(10-11) and TaeJa(10-4, two AK) played in GSTL(I handpicked the numbers so those might be wrong). Maru(79-39, one AK, 7-5 ace) and Innovation(75?-41, three AK, 4-4 ace) both played in Proleague with very good results even if none of them truly is the best Proleague player. Proleague was super prestigeous after the full kespa switch. But I wouldn't include the 2012/13-season because in that season the esf-teams and most original SC2-Players didn't participate, so it wasn't as competitive (especially with quite some kespa players not adjusting very well/fast to SC2). It also inflated some player's records because of the allkill-format rounds (which is the reason why Inno could gather more allkills). Especially Maru's 22-4 record in 2016's proleague is insane and unheard of in SC2.
|
On April 17 2019 04:34 Bagration wrote: Not yet - his best year thus far (2018) was overshadowed by Serral. If he can keep up this form through the end of year, and Serral doesn't keep on winning everything, then he has a shot. So far, it's looking good with him grabbing his 4th straight GSL while Serral lost WCS to Reynor.
Otherwise, Maru risks being overshadowed during his own peak era (e.g., Jaedong to Flash) Serral isn't winning everything right now, like the WCS you mentioned. And he lost at WESG
|
On April 18 2019 00:49 NeThZOR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 04:34 Bagration wrote: Not yet - his best year thus far (2018) was overshadowed by Serral. If he can keep up this form through the end of year, and Serral doesn't keep on winning everything, then he has a shot. So far, it's looking good with him grabbing his 4th straight GSL while Serral lost WCS to Reynor.
Otherwise, Maru risks being overshadowed during his own peak era (e.g., Jaedong to Flash) Serral isn't winning everything right now, like the WCS you mentioned. And he lost at WESG
If memory serves me correctly, Serral and Maru have competed in 4 of the same tournaments since Maru's WESG win over Serral last year, in which Serral placed higher than Maru in all of them (though at this year's WESG they can effectively be considered tied as they both lost to Inno)
|
On April 17 2019 05:02 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous. Well, Maru is one of the few who rarely traveled to tournaments abroad and back then most of those tournaments had to be considered inferior to GSL by far. Also in 2013-15 Maru won two Starleagues of GSL calibre, gathered 6 top 4 and additional 6 top 8 finishes in premier events (GSLs and similar calibre) and placed 2nd in the stacked IEM Taipei (losing to Life in a nailbiting close final). And after his aquisition by JAGW he went on to be the top Proleague player for 3 seasons straight. He was one of the most dominant, feared and successful forces and probably the most consistent player of that time. Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet. Funny enough, I'm still not sure if I can call Maru GOAT because other players have achieved great things, too.
Still, his only good weekender tournament is a final during this period, you can add his non wins in SSL/GSL to give density to your argument but it's not like others players didn't have good placement without winning nor it contradicts my point. As for PL, yes he did well for sure, as Flash, soO, Zest and others. But saying he was the most dominent just like the biggest name is wrong, Zest was considered as the best players of 2014 overall, Life in his prime created a feeling of awe that Maru never matched at this time (hots), the same can be said for Innovation. He was clearly behind. Even Taeja who is peirceved as a very overrated player for his unholy wins in foreign tournaments has been time to time considered as more impressive with stellar play and iconic games. (vs rain, inno, soO, zest, life ext)
That said, it's ok to think Maru was the most consistent, you bring facts (considering he sometimes failed in GSL/SLL, only the pl results are really worth it to prove his super consistency imo even if I think it is quite overrated, some players who did well in PL didn't bring much results while others who didn't did a lot) but this is just wrong :
Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet.
You forgot the loss of the gaming house with the kespa training regime which benefited to a lot of players. Or maybe the loss of this unleashed their potential ? It's quite a fantasy world but ok.
As for the rise of the level, it has been stated by Snute and there is some true obviously for the foreigner scene because in contrary to the korean scene it received fresh blood and rising players, Showtime, Neeb, Serral, Reynor, Denver, Uthermal, ptitdrogo to name a few. While I think Snute has troubled to adapt to lotv and declined after reaching his heights in hots (quite a normal career), so it must be nuanced, I agree on the fact the foreigner scene is doing better but I have no clue how you can say the same for Korea without fresh blood and loss of important structures. (pl, gaming house) It is as you said, a delusional idea.
Maru was and has always been the best of his teammates in prep tournaments, it's quite logic he is the one who beneficits the most of it now. It is a massive structural advantage, ofc, some don't want to recognize it but it still is. It's always annoying when a maru fan or tbf, anyone is saying "Gsl is more competitive cuz players are getting older", they always forgot to mention the lack of new players, the loss of gaming houses, coaches and structures of the kespa teams as if it was meaningless for the competitivity of the game.
Moreover, my other argument is the loss of players without any replacement, there are no new super competitive players in Korea since a very long time while it lost a lot because of retierement, military, matchfixing scandal and so on : to name a few who were top players : herO (at his top in 2015), Soulkey, Rain, Life, Byul, Parting, Dream, MMA they were others very good ones who could beat anyone : Bbyong, Curious, Supernova, Sacsri, True, Hydra just to name of few... So, you're basically saying a gsl who would add this guy in competitive condition would be less competitive ? Adding more good players is making the tournament less competitive? Wtf is that... Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players, there are no more real groups of death (remember Life, flash, parting, innovation ?), the statement gsl is more competitive is clearly against basic logic.
Finally, we all know a 18 months retierement is big (at least I hope...) and still, Taeja managed to give Serral a lot troubles at the hsc, how is it possible for a player whose the skills are supposedly outdated ? So, winning a gsl today has not the same value than winning one between 2013-15-16. That's all.
People also forget that at the end of WOL during broodlord/infestor Innovation was considered the best terran
Only Maru's fans are forggeting it, I guess they will riot with this basic statement : Inno was the best terran of hots by a very large margin, considering how they're trolling in every threads mentionning Serral since his super tournament victory (and considering the level of toxicity, I am gentle with the term "trolling"...) or because some casters said he was the best ever ! Anyway, in the span of a +100 month career, Maru got a single weekender in 2018, enough said I suppose.
|
On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though.
Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
|
I'm a big SC fanboy since BW days. Consistency is way more difficult in Sc2, the game is more volatile. I'm/was a huge fan of MVP, Inno, Soo, Serral, Rain, etc., I just enjoy the game as much as 10 years ago. And in my opinion yes, Maru is already the GOAT. 4 GSL in a row is, for me, THE feat in sc2 history. Also his playstyle is a joy to watch.
|
On April 18 2019 01:35 Lil_nooblet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though. Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet.
Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4.
Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
|
On April 18 2019 01:58 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 01:35 Lil_nooblet wrote:On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though. Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet. Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4. Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call.
What people constantly do is completely neglect maru's results before 2018 for some reason. He won SSL and OSL, two starleagues during a time where other players like zest didn't win more than that either. On top of that he had another 4 ro4 finishes in gsl and some ro8 finishes in starleagues (at least the ro4s one should absolutely take into consideration, ro8 arguably as well but to a lesser degree obviously) He got 2nd at IEM tapai and WESG 2016, had 3 ro4 finishes in 2013 s3 finals, hot6ix cup and blizzcon. Then add the proleague success to it and these feats alone are already an incredibly impressive career. I find it somewhat absurd to say there is a lot of recency bias going on under these circumstances, maru was one of the very best from 2013 onwards
|
Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On April 18 2019 01:19 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 05:02 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous. Well, Maru is one of the few who rarely traveled to tournaments abroad and back then most of those tournaments had to be considered inferior to GSL by far. Also in 2013-15 Maru won two Starleagues of GSL calibre, gathered 6 top 4 and additional 6 top 8 finishes in premier events (GSLs and similar calibre) and placed 2nd in the stacked IEM Taipei (losing to Life in a nailbiting close final). And after his aquisition by JAGW he went on to be the top Proleague player for 3 seasons straight. He was one of the most dominant, feared and successful forces and probably the most consistent player of that time. Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet. Funny enough, I'm still not sure if I can call Maru GOAT because other players have achieved great things, too. Still, his only good weekender tournament is a final during this period, you can add his non wins in SSL/GSL to give density to your argument but it's not like others players didn't have good placement without winning nor it contradicts my point. As for PL, yes he did well for sure, as Flash, soO, Zest and others. But saying he was the most dominent just like the biggest name is wrong, Zest was considered as the best players of 2014 overall, Life in his prime created a feeling of awe that Maru never matched at this time (hots), the same can be said for Innovation. He was clearly behind. Even Taeja who is peirceved as a very overrated player for his unholy wins in foreign tournaments has been time to time considered as more impressive with stellar play and iconic games. (vs rain, inno, soO, zest, life ext) That said, it's ok to think Maru was the most consistent, you bring facts (considering he sometimes failed in GSL/SLL, only the pl results are really worth it to prove his super consistency imo even if I think it is quite overrated, some players who did well in PL didn't bring much results while others who didn't did a lot) but this is just wrong : Show nested quote +Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet. You forgot the loss of the gaming house with the kespa training regime which benefited to a lot of players. Or maybe the loss of this unleashed their potential ? It's quite a fantasy world but ok. As for the rise of the level, it has been stated by Snute and there is some true obviously for the foreigner scene because in contrary to the korean scene it received fresh blood and rising players, Showtime, Neeb, Serral, Reynor, Denver, Uthermal, ptitdrogo to name a few. While I think Snute has troubled to adapt to lotv and declined after reaching his heights in hots (quite a normal career), so it must be nuanced, I agree on the fact the foreigner scene is doing better but I have no clue how you can say the same for Korea without fresh blood and loss of important structures. (pl, gaming house) It is as you said, a delusional idea. Maru was and has always been the best of his teammates in prep tournaments, it's quite logic he is the one who beneficits the most of it now. It is a massive structural advantage, ofc, some don't want to recognize it but it still is. It's always annoying when a maru fan or tbf, anyone is saying "Gsl is more competitive cuz players are getting older", they always forgot to mention the lack of new players, the loss of gaming houses, coaches and structures of the kespa teams as if it was meaningless for the competitivity of the game. Moreover, my other argument is the loss of players without any replacement, there are no new super competitive players in Korea since a very long time while it lost a lot because of retierement, military, matchfixing scandal and so on : to name a few who were top players : herO (at his top in 2015), Soulkey, Rain, Life, Byul, Parting, Dream, MMA they were others very good ones who could beat anyone : Bbyong, Curious, Supernova, Sacsri, True, Hydra just to name of few... So, you're basically saying a gsl who would add this guy in competitive condition would be less competitive ? Adding more good players is making the tournament less competitive? Wtf is that... Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players, there are no more real groups of death (remember Life, flash, parting, innovation ?), the statement gsl is more competitive is clearly against basic logic. Finally, we all know a 18 months retierement is big (at least I hope...) and still, Taeja managed to give Serral a lot troubles at the hsc, how is it possible for a player whose the skills are supposedly outdated ? So, winning a gsl today has not the same value than winning one between 2013-15-16. That's all. Show nested quote +People also forget that at the end of WOL during broodlord/infestor Innovation was considered the best terran Only Maru's fans are forggeting it, I guess they will riot with this basic statement : Inno was the best terran of hots by a very large margin, considering how they're trolling in every threads mentionning Serral since his super tournament victory (and considering the level of toxicity, I am gentle with the term "trolling"...) or because some casters said he was the best ever ! Anyway, in the span of a +100 month career, Maru got a single weekender in 2018, enough said I suppose. All fair points, IMO anyway.
Team houses are especially beneficial for prep tournaments, and some players clearly benefit from that structure. Being out of that has benefitted some players though, so it’s not a pure advantage, it could be a disadvantage depending on who you are.
Also I mean it’s a super obvious point that isn’t mentioned enough, 3 different games, with different periods and metas on top of tournaments springing into being and ending, added to the Kespa/post Kespa split.
Mvp’s GSL finals run is both amazing and won’t be replicated, I don’t think you can replicate it in Legacy, the game is faster and rewards mechanics more that even with god tier set planning you won’t be able to see a player whose mechanics have been worn down by injury being able to make it regardless.
|
On April 18 2019 02:14 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 01:58 Xain0n wrote:On April 18 2019 01:35 Lil_nooblet wrote:On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though. Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet. Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4. Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call. What people constantly do is completely neglect maru's results before 2018 for some reason. He won SSL and OSL, two starleagues during a time where other players like zest didn't win more than that either. On top of that he had another 4 ro4 finishes in gsl and some ro8 finishes in starleagues (at least the ro4s one should absolutely take into consideration, ro8 arguably as well but to a lesser degree obviously) He got 2nd at IEM tapai and WESG 2016, had 3 ro4 finishes in 2013 s3 finals, hot6ix cup and blizzcon. Then add the proleague success to it and these feats alone are already an incredibly impressive career. I find it somewhat absurd to say there is a lot of recency bias going on under these circumstances, maru was one of the very best from 2013 onwards
The recency bias is what is making people claim for Maru being UNCONTESTED GOAT, there is no doubt he was a fine player before 2018 and that he deserves a very high seat at Sc2's council.
Nothing is forgotten, if you look at my previous posts in this thread I listed every placement above ro8 in the careers of TaeJa, Life, Mvp, Inno and Maru(and even their korean team league records after it was requested).
|
I understand all the statements but I disagree with some of them. Opinions, I suppose XD. The popularity decline of Sc2 in Korea is a fact. There's less players in Korea playing the game, but right now the skill lvl of the pros is just crazy. The scene is saturated, the players know each other so well, and in such a context it's just incredible winning 4 consecutive GSL's. There's less players for sure, but the true contenders, the tier1 players, is and has always been a limited group of names. It hasn't changed at all. And nowadays these few players are just freaking good. That's why I put Maru and Inno too above MVP. I'm a huge MVP fan, but it's undeniable that the GSL's victories of Maru or Inno had more tight competitors. You can see players like TOP, San, July or TheStC in the top places during MVP GSL's victories.
When the korean Sc2 scene was healthier, for example during Soulkey or Rain GSL victories (2013 and 2015), the game was way more refined than in the early days. But then again, the real contenders were a limited group of names. Players like Curious, MyuNgSiK, KangHo/Losira or Symbol made the quaterfinals during Soulkey or Rain GSL runs. Don't get me wrong, I loved Losira mechanics or MyuNgSiK crazy builds, but I cite them to show that the caliber of today contender players is just crazy. You only need to see them play really: Innovation, TY, Classic, Stats, Trap, Dark, Rogue, etc. Defeating consistently these players during 4 GSL's in a row puts Maru above MVP. And Inno too. It's just my opinion, obviously.
|
On April 18 2019 03:09 ubikz wrote: I understand all the statements but I disagree with some of them. Opinions, I suppose XD. The popularity decline of Sc2 in Korea is a fact. There's less players in Korea playing the game, but right now the skill lvl of the pros is just crazy. The scene is saturated, the players know each other so well, and in such a context it's just incredible winning 4 consecutive GSL's. There's less players for sure, but the true contenders, the tier1 players, is and has always been a limited group of names. It hasn't changed at all. And nowadays these few players are just freaking good. That's why I put Maru and Inno too above MVP. I'm a huge MVP fan, but it's undeniable that the GSL's victories of Maru or Inno had more tight competitors. You can see players like TOP, San, July or TheStC in the top places during MVP GSL's victories.
When the korean Sc2 scene was healthier, for example during Soulkey or Rain GSL victories (2013 and 2015), the game was way more refined than in the early days. But then again, the real contenders were a limited group of names. Players like Curious, MyuNgSiK, KangHo/Losira or Symbol made the quaterfinals during Soulkey or Rain GSL runs. Don't get me wrong, I loved Losira mechanics or MyuNgSiK crazy builds, but I cite them to show that the caliber of today contender players is just crazy. You only need to see them play really: Innovation, TY, Classic, Stats, Trap, Dark, Rogue, etc. Defeating consistently these players during 4 GSL's in a row puts Maru above MVP. And Inno too. It's just my opinion, obviously.
I agree with you, the skill level of the players is now incredibly high. With time and refinement players become generally more skilled, both mechanichally and strategically; this shouldn't count in a GOAT discussion by the way, it's like saying Boxer is not a great player because the skill level was objectively lower when he was playing. Squirtle and the other WoL players who may now seem weak were top dogs in that game, with that meta; assuming Sc2 goes on for other ten years Maru's play could seem lacking to future observers.
The level you should be look at is relative to the scene: only three years ago the korean scene was so much deeper: potential Code S winners were going out in Code A, now half of the qualifiers are just a bye. Code S is still very competitive at the latest stages but the overall level of the competition is diminished(again, I'm not speaking of gaming performances, Maru in 2018 was most likely stronger than Zest in 2016).
|
On April 18 2019 03:26 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 03:09 ubikz wrote: I understand all the statements but I disagree with some of them. Opinions, I suppose XD. The popularity decline of Sc2 in Korea is a fact. There's less players in Korea playing the game, but right now the skill lvl of the pros is just crazy. The scene is saturated, the players know each other so well, and in such a context it's just incredible winning 4 consecutive GSL's. There's less players for sure, but the true contenders, the tier1 players, is and has always been a limited group of names. It hasn't changed at all. And nowadays these few players are just freaking good. That's why I put Maru and Inno too above MVP. I'm a huge MVP fan, but it's undeniable that the GSL's victories of Maru or Inno had more tight competitors. You can see players like TOP, San, July or TheStC in the top places during MVP GSL's victories.
When the korean Sc2 scene was healthier, for example during Soulkey or Rain GSL victories (2013 and 2015), the game was way more refined than in the early days. But then again, the real contenders were a limited group of names. Players like Curious, MyuNgSiK, KangHo/Losira or Symbol made the quaterfinals during Soulkey or Rain GSL runs. Don't get me wrong, I loved Losira mechanics or MyuNgSiK crazy builds, but I cite them to show that the caliber of today contender players is just crazy. You only need to see them play really: Innovation, TY, Classic, Stats, Trap, Dark, Rogue, etc. Defeating consistently these players during 4 GSL's in a row puts Maru above MVP. And Inno too. It's just my opinion, obviously. I agree with you, the skill level of the players is now incredibly high. With time and refinement players become generally more skilled, both mechanichally and strategically; this shouldn't count in a GOAT discussion by the way, it's like saying Boxer is not a great player because the skill level was objectively lower when he was playing. Squirtle and the other WoL players who may now seem weak were top dogs in that game, with that meta; assuming Sc2 goes on for other ten years Maru's play could seem lacking to future observers. The level you should be look at is relative to the scene: only three years ago the korean scene was so much deeper potential Code S winners were going out in Code A, now half of the qualifiers are just a bye. Code S is still very competitive at the latest stages but the overall level of the competition is diminished(again, I'm not speaking of gaming performances, Maru in 2018 was most likely stronger than Zest in 2016). I get your point. The GOAT discussion is a difficult affair XD
|
On April 18 2019 03:09 ubikz wrote: I understand all the statements but I disagree with some of them. Opinions, I suppose XD. The popularity decline of Sc2 in Korea is a fact. There's less players in Korea playing the game, but right now the skill lvl of the pros is just crazy. The scene is saturated, the players know each other so well, and in such a context it's just incredible winning 4 consecutive GSL's. There's less players for sure, but the true contenders, the tier1 players, is and has always been a limited group of names. It hasn't changed at all. And nowadays these few players are just freaking good. That's why I put Maru and Inno too above MVP. I'm a huge MVP fan, but it's undeniable that the GSL's victories of Maru or Inno had more tight competitors. You can see players like TOP, San, July or TheStC in the top places during MVP GSL's victories.
When the korean Sc2 scene was healthier, for example during Soulkey or Rain GSL victories (2013 and 2015), the game was way more refined than in the early days. But then again, the real contenders were a limited group of names. Players like Curious, MyuNgSiK, KangHo/Losira or Symbol made the quaterfinals during Soulkey or Rain GSL runs. Don't get me wrong, I loved Losira mechanics or MyuNgSiK crazy builds, but I cite them to show that the caliber of today contender players is just crazy. You only need to see them play really: Innovation, TY, Classic, Stats, Trap, Dark, Rogue, etc. Defeating consistently these players during 4 GSL's in a row puts Maru above MVP. And Inno too. It's just my opinion, obviously.
Oh yes I forgot these names, they were even more good players these days, not championship contenders but guys who made the ro32 a dangerous thing. And Trap who got humiliated 4-0 in one of the fatest series ? He is only a good player but has never been a player of the same caliber as the other players mentionned. All the them were already very goods in 2015. I don't know how reducing the talent pool can increase the competitivity combined with loss of structure. Like you're not wrong, the contenders have always been in low numbers but today there is really not that much. You should see the old soO vs Zest, Taeja vs soO/Life/Zest/Inno, Life vs Dream/Inno/Maru, Dear vs Maru/Jaedong, Parting vs Flash, SK vs Inno ext, aside for the competitive aspect, it's really hard to say "hey, today they are crazy better". It was just a different game tbf.
What people constantly do is completely neglect maru's results before 2018 for some reason. He won SSL and OSL, two starleagues during a time where other players like zest didn't win more than that either. On top of that he had another 4 ro4 finishes in gsl and some ro8 finishes in starleagues (at least the ro4s one should absolutely take into consideration, ro8 arguably as well but to a lesser degree obviously) He got 2nd at IEM tapai and WESG 2016, had 3 ro4 finishes in 2013 s3 finals, hot6ix cup and blizzcon. Then add the proleague success to it and these feats alone are already an incredibly impressive career. I find it somewhat absurd to say there is a lot of recency bias going on under these circumstances, maru was one of the very best from 2013 onwards
What are the evidences for the ppl who are ignoring what Maru did between 2013-5-6 ? I don't see any posts like this. However I see post who are over evaluating his performance imo, he was not in the same tier as some others for sure. He was ranked 6th in the classment made by stuchiu, it seems fair even if the cluthness of sOs could have make him 6th too... (well, in this particular classement, I would swap Taeja/Inno and ranks SK/Classic highter but whatever).
|
On April 18 2019 01:58 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 01:35 Lil_nooblet wrote:On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though. Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet. Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4. Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call. complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
|
On April 18 2019 01:19 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 05:02 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 17 2019 04:31 stilt wrote: So the goat has a 8 years carreer with 1 win in a weekender tournament (sth sc2 is full of and cannot be neglected) in 2018 with a advantageous meta, sure...
This + the large advantages he benefits over the concurence (aka no gaming house/team) AND an overall way less competitive gsl than 2013-15 (or 16).
Maru's hype is getting ridiculous. Well, Maru is one of the few who rarely traveled to tournaments abroad and back then most of those tournaments had to be considered inferior to GSL by far. Also in 2013-15 Maru won two Starleagues of GSL calibre, gathered 6 top 4 and additional 6 top 8 finishes in premier events (GSLs and similar calibre) and placed 2nd in the stacked IEM Taipei (losing to Life in a nailbiting close final). And after his aquisition by JAGW he went on to be the top Proleague player for 3 seasons straight. He was one of the most dominant, feared and successful forces and probably the most consistent player of that time. Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet. Funny enough, I'm still not sure if I can call Maru GOAT because other players have achieved great things, too. Still, his only good weekender tournament is a final during this period, you can add his non wins in SSL/GSL to give density to your argument but it's not like others players didn't have good placement without winning nor it contradicts my point. As for PL, yes he did well for sure, as Flash, soO, Zest and others. But saying he was the most dominent just like the biggest name is wrong, Zest was considered as the best players of 2014 overall, Life in his prime created a feeling of awe that Maru never matched at this time (hots), the same can be said for Innovation. He was clearly behind. Even Taeja who is peirceved as a very overrated player for his unholy wins in foreign tournaments has been time to time considered as more impressive with stellar play and iconic games. (vs rain, inno, soO, zest, life ext) That said, it's ok to think Maru was the most consistent, you bring facts (considering he sometimes failed in GSL/SLL, only the pl results are really worth it to prove his super consistency imo even if I think it is quite overrated, some players who did well in PL didn't bring much results while others who didn't did a lot) but this is just wrong : Show nested quote +Also that the GSL is now less competitive is just a delusional idea. Almost all pros keep saying that everyone is getting better. One can fear for the future of Korean SC2 because of the lack of new talent moving up but the time when this affects the quality of play isn't there yet. You forgot the loss of the gaming house with the kespa training regime which benefited to a lot of players. Or maybe the loss of this unleashed their potential ? It's quite a fantasy world but ok. As for the rise of the level, it has been stated by Snute and there is some true obviously for the foreigner scene because in contrary to the korean scene it received fresh blood and rising players, Showtime, Neeb, Serral, Reynor, Denver, Uthermal, ptitdrogo to name a few. While I think Snute has troubled to adapt to lotv and declined after reaching his heights in hots (quite a normal career), so it must be nuanced, I agree on the fact the foreigner scene is doing better but I have no clue how you can say the same for Korea without fresh blood and loss of important structures. (pl, gaming house) It is as you said, a delusional idea. Maru was and has always been the best of his teammates in prep tournaments, it's quite logic he is the one who beneficits the most of it now. It is a massive structural advantage, ofc, some don't want to recognize it but it still is. It's always annoying when a maru fan or tbf, anyone is saying "Gsl is more competitive cuz players are getting older", they always forgot to mention the lack of new players, the loss of gaming houses, coaches and structures of the kespa teams as if it was meaningless for the competitivity of the game. Moreover, my other argument is the loss of players without any replacement, there are no new super competitive players in Korea since a very long time while it lost a lot because of retierement, military, matchfixing scandal and so on : to name a few who were top players : herO (at his top in 2015), Soulkey, Rain, Life, Byul, Parting, Dream, MMA they were others very good ones who could beat anyone : Bbyong, Curious, Supernova, Sacsri, True, Hydra just to name of few... So, you're basically saying a gsl who would add this guy in competitive condition would be less competitive ? Adding more good players is making the tournament less competitive? Wtf is that... Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players, there are no more real groups of death (remember Life, flash, parting, innovation ?), the statement gsl is more competitive is clearly against basic logic. Finally, we all know a 18 months retierement is big (at least I hope...) and still, Taeja managed to give Serral a lot troubles at the hsc, how is it possible for a player whose the skills are supposedly outdated ? So, winning a gsl today has not the same value than winning one between 2013-15-16. That's all. You're misunderstanding my points. I don't say that losing players and teamhouse infrastructure isn't a bad thing for overall competition. But players don't become worse all of a sudden because of that. We still have a really healthy Code S in terms of players with great skill. As further you go in the tournament the less a difference can be seen to earlier years with bigger player pools. What I say is: the top players still have enough other top players to be on a really high level and to still improve their skill. Just remember the Code S win of Gumiho. He said, the main reason for his win was, that he finally focused on pure mechanics in order to be competitive on the very top. This shows that players still can improve. Of course, if teamhouses still existed, the overall improvement could be even higher but GSL is not becoming easier because of that.
I think you're romantisizing the old times. Ro32 of GSL almost never had groups of death and usually were easy to predict. Upsets happened, yes, but that's still the case. Why? Because competition in GSL is still that high that almost anybody can make an upset on a good day. I mean - just look at the most recent Ro32: Gumiho and Cure advanced over Stats, Bunny over Solar, washed-up herO over Scarlett, Impact over Fantasy and Leenock, Patience over Zest. It's just not true that "Getting eliminated in ro32 is next to impossible for every good players" - it happens all the time!
Taeja giving Serral a hard time was probably due to Serral not adapting as fast to the new patch back then as he also barely won vs Bunny and Innovation. I mean, Taeja also lost to Ptitdrogo, Mana, Solar and Cure at HSC and still didn't manage to qualify for anything in 2019 (yeah yeah - it's really easy now to qualify for GSL, isn't it?).
|
On April 18 2019 04:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 01:58 Xain0n wrote:On April 18 2019 01:35 Lil_nooblet wrote:On April 17 2019 11:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: For me it's Innovation > Maru > Life > Serral > MVP
If Maru won Blizzcon he'd be GOAT and imo the 1st SC2 Bonjwa, if Maru wins one more GSL in next two, I'd consider that Bonjwa too, some weekender tournament would solidify that international dominance too though. Serral over Mvp is actually just crazy. Serral isn't even top 10 all time yet. Hm not sure, I would say he is but I'm a fan; he's pretty close in any of case but definitely not #4. Recency bias is impressive and it works for Maru as well, four consecutive Code S(in 2018-2019) erasing all the achievements of the greats of the past. I find it hard pick one between Life, Mvp and Inno and I would place Maru and TaeJa one step behind but apparently Maru is already GOAT for more than 40% of people. Unless he quits or has health issues or Inno starts winning more he will eventually become the GOAT, at the moment it's premature call. complaining about recency bias while in the same post claiming Serral is top 10 all time lmao... Serral isn't even top 25.
LMAO as much as you want, the point is how much you value WCS in 2018 as he already is #10 if you look at Premier tournament results(valuing Premier first). It's not recency bias, at best you might say I am overrating WCS just as I say you overrate Code S in 2019.
|
|
|
|