There are probably some related threads somewhere on TL, but I couldn't find them, so sorry if that's the case.
I just watched Maru's first televised win and I'm honestly very confused by the level of play displayed. How is this even possible? It's not like these guys are playing RTS for the first time, they are actual pros who spent theirs days practicing the game! Also there was Brood war before for years, so how is it possible that a pro player (or even semi-pro) would have 600 gaz banked up before throwing down the spire, without ling speed? It even seem like they can't continuously produce workers?
I've heard people say diamonds or even plat players today could compete in the early GSLs and I never believed them until now. I always tought these weirds 1 base build people were doing in WOL were just the best (or at least decent) responses to the prevalent meta. (I started watching with HotS)
So were early WoL players just plain bad or is just the case that the meta was very weird? What is the actual, objective level difference between a diamond today and a gsl contender back then?
"I've heard people say diamonds or even plat players today could compete in the early GSLs"
people who say that are dumb. early players look bad because they don't play current meta and didn't figure out the specific micro tricks that are used now, but the actual level of macro and micro is beyond most current masters. also old lost temple is such a dumb map, current meta builds wouldn't work at all with the rush distances
On June 26 2018 08:19 rauk wrote: "I've heard people say diamonds or even plat players today could compete in the early GSLs"
people who say that are dumb. early players look bad because they don't play current meta and didn't figure out the specific micro tricks that are used now, but the actual level of macro and micro is beyond most current masters
That quote is an exaggeration for sure, but a lot of the actual macro and micro of the players was pretty bad back then. It's not just a metagame thing, the mechanical skill has increased greatly.
On June 26 2018 08:27 rauk wrote: maybe for 2010 when people had literally 6 months to get used to how the game behaved, but by mid 2011 they were mechanically fine
They really weren't
Marine splitting is an incredibly basic skill nowadays that was MIND-BLOWING MICRO when MKP was doing it back in the day
Players were sitting on 1/1 upgrades on both sides like 15 minutes into a match, banelings were crashing into marauders even though there was literally nothing else going on to occupy attention, etc.
Current top players make off-meta plays and still make it look impressive, players back then were just BAD
Remember Fruitdealer's GSL win? Because I do. He transfused a Muta on Metalopolis with a queen and we all went nuts, because that was unbelievable play at the time. He stuck a Nydus next to the production buildings of the Terran on Kulas Ravine or whatever it was with like 8 watchtowers in the middle and the Terran didn't notice. One of the oldschool worms that could be killed by workers in like 3 seconds. The caliber of play was really, really lackluster.
Back in the day, humans used to live in caves. They were so bad back then they didnt even know what a wheel was. Were Neanderthals really that bad or did it just take time for them to learn & evolve?
Rome wasn't built in a day. In a game that has as many variables & unit interactions as Starcraft 2, i think it's only common sense that the skill of the players at the beginning of the games existence would pale in comparison to where pro's are at today. The players back then were inventing the meta. They didn't have the luxury of years worth of practice, vods, guides etc
It is safe to say however that the pro's today are higher skilled than the pros during the WOL era. But to say they were 'bad', that just seems to be unfair imo.
On June 26 2018 09:01 billynasty wrote: Back in the day, humans used to live in caves. They were so bad back then they didnt even know what a wheel was. Were Neanderthals really that bad or did it just take time for them to learn & evolve?
Rome wasn't built in a day. In a game that has as many variables & unit interactions as Starcraft 2, i think it's only common sense that the skill of the players at the beginning of the games existence would pale in comparison to where pro's are at today. The players back then were inventing the meta. They didn't have the luxury of years worth of practice, vods, guides etc
It is safe to say however that the pro's today are higher skilled than the pros during the WOL era. But to say they were 'bad', that just seems to be unfair imo.
Obviously I'm not talking down MVP or anything, I was mostly talking about very early stuff like the Maru match I was referring to (linked below), where Cella sits on 18 drones, some larvas and 300 minerals, and doesn't make drones, and where he waits until he has 500 gaz to throw down the 1.5 base spire (after cancelling a roach warren). So yeah I guess we could say "oh well he was waiting to see he was getting 1 base all-in so that's why he didn't build more drones" or "tech paths weren't understood back then", but it still seems weird to me.
EDIT : Alright I checked the other games of that series and it's not thaaaat bad
Cella was absolute garbaggio as a player and barely played a few games before turning into a coach. There are many things that factor in to determine whether one time or another was more competitive and I don't feel like diving into it, tho I will say that I just don't think that a nearly dead sc2 (nowadays) is as competitive in many many ways compared to say 1 year into WoL or HotS.
On June 26 2018 08:27 rauk wrote: maybe for 2010 when people had literally 6 months to get used to how the game behaved, but by mid 2011 they were mechanically fine
They really weren't
Marine splitting is an incredibly basic skill nowadays that was MIND-BLOWING MICRO when MKP was doing it back in the day
Players were sitting on 1/1 upgrades on both sides like 15 minutes into a match, banelings were crashing into marauders even though there was literally nothing else going on to occupy attention, etc.
Current top players make off-meta plays and still make it look impressive, players back then were just BAD
Remember Fruitdealer's GSL win? Because I do. He transfused a Muta on Metalopolis with a queen and we all went nuts, because that was unbelievable play at the time. He stuck a Nydus next to the production buildings of the Terran on Kulas Ravine or whatever it was with like 8 watchtowers in the middle and the Terran didn't notice. One of the oldschool worms that could be killed by workers in like 3 seconds. The caliber of play was really, really lackluster.
First of all, MKP became famous in the second GSL which finished less than 4 months after sc2 was released. Strategies and timings were not fleshed out yet, so all-ins and other kinds of weird strategies were fairly successful. That's how bitbybit pulling scvs on offense every game or kyrix bane-busting his opponents all the time was possible. It is not like players had terrible mechanics, the issue was simply that build orders and timings for macro openings were not crisp yet.
Also, MKP's marine splitting was mind-blowing because he went pure bio with mostly marines against ling/bane... no tanks to counter banes or drops to pull apart his opponent... and he did it several games in a row... and he did it first against kyrix who was known for early- and mid-game bane busts... and he won the series...
Yes, the GSL open seasons had some very lopsided games in them that made some players look like complete noobs. However, mechanically the top players were pretty decent, albeit mostly weaker than today's pros (after all there is a bit of a difference between practicing for 5 months and practicing for 5+ years). The issue was that there was no clear "standard" play and strategies were not refined yet. Additionally, there were a few genuinely terrible players that slipped through the open seasons' preliminaries. By the time, code S rolled around, top players already had top mechanics even by today's standards.
Lets just say that MKP's micro back then was still vastly better than what you see today from a lot of bottom tier terrans, all foreign terrans included.
On June 26 2018 08:27 rauk wrote: maybe for 2010 when people had literally 6 months to get used to how the game behaved, but by mid 2011 they were mechanically fine
They really weren't
Marine splitting is an incredibly basic skill nowadays that was MIND-BLOWING MICRO when MKP was doing it back in the day
Players were sitting on 1/1 upgrades on both sides like 15 minutes into a match, banelings were crashing into marauders even though there was literally nothing else going on to occupy attention, etc.
Current top players make off-meta plays and still make it look impressive, players back then were just BAD
Remember Fruitdealer's GSL win? Because I do. He transfused a Muta on Metalopolis with a queen and we all went nuts, because that was unbelievable play at the time. He stuck a Nydus next to the production buildings of the Terran on Kulas Ravine or whatever it was with like 8 watchtowers in the middle and the Terran didn't notice. One of the oldschool worms that could be killed by workers in like 3 seconds. The caliber of play was really, really lackluster.
First of all, MKP became famous in the second GSL which finished less than 4 months after sc2 was released. Strategies and timings were not fleshed out yet, so all-ins and other kinds of weird strategies were fairly successful. That's how bitbybit pulling scvs on offense every game or kyrix bane-busting his opponents all the time was possible. It is not like players had terrible mechanics, the issue was simply that build orders and timings for macro openings were not crisp yet.
Also, MKP's marine splitting was mind-blowing because he went pure bio with mostly marines against ling/bane... no tanks to counter banes or drops to pull apart his opponent... and he did it several games in a row... and he did it first against kyrix who was known for early- and mid-game bane busts... and he won the series...
Yes, the GSL open seasons had some very lopsided games in them that made some players look like complete noobs. However, mechanically the top players were pretty decent, albeit mostly weaker than today's pros (after all there is a bit of a difference between practicing for 5 months and practicing for 5+ years). The issue was that there was no clear "standard" play and strategies were not refined yet. Additionally, there were a few genuinely terrible players that slipped through the open seasons' preliminaries. By the time, code S rolled around, top players already had top mechanics even by today's standards.
I understand that MKP's play was incredible at the time. It really serves to cement my point-- he figured out some basic micro stuff that utterly abused the lack of mechanics of his opponents to launch him into wins until other players caught up enough mechanically to hold his pushes.
Top players 5 years ago couldn't hold the jock straps of current players right now. That's not even debatable. Players used to win against other top players by dropping two locations at once while pushing the front. That's just midgame foreplay now, and we lambaste a player that loses to it for their poor play. Complete scouting, microing, defending/attacking on multiple fronts, counter-attacks to force retreats etc. are all completely standard parts of top-level play that are EXPECTED at this level now.
On June 26 2018 09:01 billynasty wrote: Back in the day, humans used to live in caves. They were so bad back then they didnt even know what a wheel was. Were Neanderthals really that bad or did it just take time for them to learn & evolve?
Rome wasn't built in a day. In a game that has as many variables & unit interactions as Starcraft 2, i think it's only common sense that the skill of the players at the beginning of the games existence would pale in comparison to where pro's are at today. The players back then were inventing the meta. They didn't have the luxury of years worth of practice, vods, guides etc
It is safe to say however that the pro's today are higher skilled than the pros during the WOL era. But to say they were 'bad', that just seems to be unfair imo.
Obviously I'm not talking down MVP or anything, I was mostly talking about very early stuff like the Maru match I was referring to (linked below), where Cella sits on 18 drones, some larvas and 300 minerals, and doesn't make drones, and where he waits until he has 500 gaz to throw down the 1.5 base spire (after cancelling a roach warren). So yeah I guess we could say "oh well he was waiting to see he was getting 1 base all-in so that's why he didn't build more drones" or "tech paths weren't understood back then", but it still seems weird to me.
EDIT : Alright I checked the other games of that series and it's not thaaaat bad
Not gonna step in the discussion, but the part when Artosis goes "wow super reaper micro!" when maru kill one slow lings with a reaper made me laugh so hard, but ya the whole game is so stupid.
By the way I didn't watch/play early wol, was creep no a thing?
Edit: nevermind I am gonna step in the discussion It's kind of surprising how bad, or at least flawed these games are, you would guess that long time RTS players would jump in more quickly, some of those build just seems to make no sense at all and the mechanics are sometime strangely lacking. I am not talking overall WOL here just the first few months of open, I watched a couple of games on youtube, maybe some of them were really relative new comer to RTS because I fell like if you take a couple of high master/gm SC2 players and put them in lets say AOE2 for 3-4 months it's probably not gonna look nice but it will be better then this. Anyway perhaps I'm wrongs it dosen't really matter.
I can say with confidence, If you guys would be sitting in front of a crowd of people who are making noise then your play would be different. I bet its the guy talking who first of all takes 2-5 practice matches, then gets overwhelmed by enemy cheese, after that match he warms up and eventually after 3 hours of gameplay he plays top notch professional level Starcraft 2 match. After looking at good performance overall he thinks its the same as sitting on stage playing somebody. Have you ever weared earmuffs during play ? Probably that would make some people loose their supply count in the first match :D
On June 26 2018 08:27 rauk wrote: maybe for 2010 when people had literally 6 months to get used to how the game behaved, but by mid 2011 they were mechanically fine
They really weren't
Marine splitting is an incredibly basic skill nowadays that was MIND-BLOWING MICRO when MKP was doing it back in the day
Players were sitting on 1/1 upgrades on both sides like 15 minutes into a match, banelings were crashing into marauders even though there was literally nothing else going on to occupy attention, etc.
Current top players make off-meta plays and still make it look impressive, players back then were just BAD
Remember Fruitdealer's GSL win? Because I do. He transfused a Muta on Metalopolis with a queen and we all went nuts, because that was unbelievable play at the time. He stuck a Nydus next to the production buildings of the Terran on Kulas Ravine or whatever it was with like 8 watchtowers in the middle and the Terran didn't notice. One of the oldschool worms that could be killed by workers in like 3 seconds. The caliber of play was really, really lackluster.
First of all, MKP became famous in the second GSL which finished less than 4 months after sc2 was released. Strategies and timings were not fleshed out yet, so all-ins and other kinds of weird strategies were fairly successful. That's how bitbybit pulling scvs on offense every game or kyrix bane-busting his opponents all the time was possible. It is not like players had terrible mechanics, the issue was simply that build orders and timings for macro openings were not crisp yet.
Also, MKP's marine splitting was mind-blowing because he went pure bio with mostly marines against ling/bane... no tanks to counter banes or drops to pull apart his opponent... and he did it several games in a row... and he did it first against kyrix who was known for early- and mid-game bane busts... and he won the series...
Yes, the GSL open seasons had some very lopsided games in them that made some players look like complete noobs. However, mechanically the top players were pretty decent, albeit mostly weaker than today's pros (after all there is a bit of a difference between practicing for 5 months and practicing for 5+ years). The issue was that there was no clear "standard" play and strategies were not refined yet. Additionally, there were a few genuinely terrible players that slipped through the open seasons' preliminaries. By the time, code S rolled around, top players already had top mechanics even by today's standards.
I understand that MKP's play was incredible at the time. It really serves to cement my point-- he figured out some basic micro stuff that utterly abused the lack of mechanics of his opponents to launch him into wins until other players caught up enough mechanically to hold his pushes.
Top players 5 years ago couldn't hold the jock straps of current players right now. That's not even debatable. Players used to win against other top players by dropping two locations at once while pushing the front. That's just midgame foreplay now, and we lambaste a player that loses to it for their poor play. Complete scouting, microing, defending/attacking on multiple fronts, counter-attacks to force retreats etc. are all completely standard parts of top-level play that are EXPECTED at this level now.
MKP did not invent anything. Players were well aware that you don't leave your bio under a storm till they die and you dont move command your marines clump into banelings. He became famous because he went pure bio against a player that was basically only ever doing bane busts and beat him with much better mechanics despite technically being up against the counter composition to his own units.
Any discussion comparing players from the early GSLs and today's players is utterly pointless, because it was a completely different game. It's one thing to do a double drop while pushing at the front when you start with 12 workers and can afford to be maxed out in under 10 minutes with double upgrades running for a while, it is a whole different ball-park to do it when you have to commit everything you have to this move. Today's Zest would go down just as quickly if warped back in time to WoL where the economy is completely different and half the units are missing as Nestea would if he tried to contest today's LotV pros.
Of course, mechanics were pretty often not quite on point during the open seasons, but the last open season ended less than 5 months after sc2's release... Furthermore, due to the lack of crisp timings and build orders some mechanically bad players made some deep runs by simply abusing certain all-ins only to be stomped by somebody who was mechanically way superior than them.
Your whole point was that players were "bad" back then. This kind of depends on your definition of back then. If you mean the open season, well.... no kidding... who would have thought that people playing a game released a few months prior would not be doing as well as players practicing for half a decade or longer... If you mean to include the entirety of WoL, then you are plain wrong. Both mechanics and strategies improved rapidly, so that the top players were really good after half an year upon sc2's release, never mind after a whole year.
On June 26 2018 08:16 VengefulTree wrote: There are probably some related threads somewhere on TL, but I couldn't find them, so sorry if that's the case.
I just watched Maru's first televised win and I'm honestly very confused by the level of play displayed. How is this even possible? It's not like these guys are playing RTS for the first time, they are actual pros who spent theirs days practicing the game! Also there was Brood war before for years, so how is it possible that a pro player (or even semi-pro) would have 600 gaz banked up before throwing down the spire, without ling speed? It even seem like they can't continuously produce workers?
I've heard people say diamonds or even plat players today could compete in the early GSLs and I never believed them until now. I always tought these weirds 1 base build people were doing in WOL were just the best (or at least decent) responses to the prevalent meta. (I started watching with HotS)
So were early WoL players just plain bad or is just the case that the meta was very weird? What is the actual, objective level difference between a diamond today and a gsl contender back then?
Thanks
It's not a fair comparison. You're comparing a meta of a game recently released to a game that's been out for 8 years. Sure players might look bad back then, but you have to remember that they were still miles ahead of the average player at that time.
To say the average diamond and plat player today can compete with GSL players of back then is a stretch. If we were to give 2010 Maru replays and about a week of practice using his 2018 Maru build, he would get GM on all server easily. For example, Kespa players only took about a month of practice before they got competitive. Also, I am pretty sure that even in 2010 GSL, MKP's micro are still better than diamond/master players today.
Early players in WoL weren't bad, the metagame just weren't as developed.
Strategies were undiscovered so players looked worse, but I guarantee you that their mechanics and game sense were still way above the average Master level player today.
On June 26 2018 09:01 billynasty wrote: Back in the day, humans used to live in caves. They were so bad back then they didnt even know what a wheel was. Were Neanderthals really that bad or did it just take time for them to learn & evolve?
Rome wasn't built in a day. In a game that has as many variables & unit interactions as Starcraft 2, i think it's only common sense that the skill of the players at the beginning of the games existence would pale in comparison to where pro's are at today. The players back then were inventing the meta. They didn't have the luxury of years worth of practice, vods, guides etc
It is safe to say however that the pro's today are higher skilled than the pros during the WOL era. But to say they were 'bad', that just seems to be unfair imo.
Obviously I'm not talking down MVP or anything, I was mostly talking about very early stuff like the Maru match I was referring to (linked below), where Cella sits on 18 drones, some larvas and 300 minerals, and doesn't make drones, and where he waits until he has 500 gaz to throw down the 1.5 base spire (after cancelling a roach warren). So yeah I guess we could say "oh well he was waiting to see he was getting 1 base all-in so that's why he didn't build more drones" or "tech paths weren't understood back then", but it still seems weird to me.
EDIT : Alright I checked the other games of that series and it's not thaaaat bad
Players weren't bad, it was the maps being terrible. The map that game was on was Lost Temple so you had to basically meta the meta of the meta since there were ridiculous things like proxy factory thor on the cliff and other builds that could straight up kill you if you didn't counter-build.
Looks like that game Cella was saving money cause he wasn't sure yet if it was gonna be some cliff bs or just up front attack.
All the old maps were just really, really bad lol and most of them either massively favored Terran or massively favored Zerg, and were entire irrelevant for Protoss because Protoss either warp gate all-ined or tried to turtle 3 base every game.
Anyone remember that reporter who came to cover the first SCII open and played in the preliminaries? He ended up qualifying and actually playing in the Ro32. His name was Apple I believe. I always thought it was hilarious how that worked out. Given, I can only presume he must've at least played the game a bit to make it that far, but it does say a lot about the mechanics at the time lol.
As mentioned, a lot of it came down to the meta and maps which are linked hand in hand. I also believe that the mechanics were bad at the time and those got a lot better as time passed.
On June 26 2018 08:27 rauk wrote: maybe for 2010 when people had literally 6 months to get used to how the game behaved, but by mid 2011 they were mechanically fine
They really weren't
Marine splitting is an incredibly basic skill nowadays that was MIND-BLOWING MICRO when MKP was doing it back in the day
Players were sitting on 1/1 upgrades on both sides like 15 minutes into a match, banelings were crashing into marauders even though there was literally nothing else going on to occupy attention, etc.
Current top players make off-meta plays and still make it look impressive, players back then were just BAD
Remember Fruitdealer's GSL win? Because I do. He transfused a Muta on Metalopolis with a queen and we all went nuts, because that was unbelievable play at the time. He stuck a Nydus next to the production buildings of the Terran on Kulas Ravine or whatever it was with like 8 watchtowers in the middle and the Terran didn't notice. One of the oldschool worms that could be killed by workers in like 3 seconds. The caliber of play was really, really lackluster.
To be fair 1/1 at 15 mins is a different beast in LOTV than it was in WoL. Not to say there wasn't anything to improve, but it's important to remember the fact that WoL and LoTV are almost two completely different games due to balance and mechanical changes.
EPT
It's kind of surprising how bad, or at least flawed these games are, you would guess that long time RTS players would jump in more quickly, some of those build just seems to make no sense at all and the mechanics are sometime strangely lacking. I am not talking overall WOL here just the first few months of open, I watched a couple of games on youtube, maybe some of them were really relative new comer to RTS because I fell like if you take a couple of high master/gm SC2 players and put them in lets say AOE2 for 3-4 months it's probably not gonna look nice but it will be better then this. Anyway perhaps I'm wrongs it dosen't really matter. 
