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Jan1997
Norway671 Posts
On July 26 2018 03:57 rauk wrote: op is claiming diamond players from today can beat pro players from 8 years ago dude I don't necceseraly agree with that, but look at this. + Show Spoiler + Would these old semi-pro's have a chance today vs modern masters? I don't think so. Hell, even I could've done what this zerg did in that game and win. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On June 26 2018 09:45 Nakajin wrote: Not gonna step in the discussion, but the part when Artosis goes "wow super reaper micro!" when maru kill one slow lings with a reaper made me laugh so hard, but ya the whole game is so stupid. By the way I didn't watch/play early wol, was creep no a thing? Edit: nevermind I am gonna step in the discussion  It's kind of surprising how bad, or at least flawed these games are, you would guess that long time RTS players would jump in more quickly, some of those build just seems to make no sense at all and the mechanics are sometime strangely lacking. I am not talking overall WOL here just the first few months of open, I watched a couple of games on youtube, maybe some of them were really relative new comer to RTS because I fell like if you take a couple of high master/gm SC2 players and put them in lets say AOE2 for 3-4 months it's probably not gonna look nice but it will be better then this. Anyway perhaps I'm wrongs it dosen't really matter. I havent watch SC2 in a long long long long time…..and even then….how many times have you heard Artosis or Tasteless saying this is fantastic/amazing/the best whatever we have ever seen? I dont know how it is today or if they even still commentate SC2, but that pair was always prone to overhype things (although it worked with their style and people liked it). Please dont confuse amazing things done at the time with amazing things as shouted by casters. Not the same. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On July 26 2018 05:55 Jan1997 wrote: I don't necceseraly agree with that, but look at this. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiDhaT6DHGU Would these old semi-pro's have a chance today vs modern masters? I don't think so. Hell, even I could've done what this zerg did in that game and win. did you even look at the date on that video? it's from the beta before the game was even released. maps were also very different from modern maps... rush distance is like less than half what it is now | ||
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Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
On July 26 2018 05:55 Jan1997 wrote: I don't necceseraly agree with that, but look at this. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiDhaT6DHGU Would these old semi-pro's have a chance today vs modern masters? I don't think so. Hell, even I could've done what this zerg did in that game and win. Two players who were never really pro level (Edit: Forgot that PainUser had one good MLG result from 2010 though I see) from before the game was even released? Could you have found a more cherrypicked example? | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
While I agree that the over skill was lower then than it is now, I wouldn't really call it bad. And the thing is, the game was much different. You take a fm now, and they have to relearn all the WoL maps and removals of units, and I doubt they'd do that well. Cause the whole point is that you drop a low tier fm or pro player now, and they can pretty much win in WoL at their current skill. The idea that the "good" players were just the guys who were pretty good at BW is just false. Most of the good people now were low tier in BW. There are a few who could have been good, like TY, soO, and Fantasy (who was already very good st BW). The main principle of the Elephant in the Room article was that it would be the good and great players from BW who would stomp the competition. But players like Zest, Taeja, herO, INnoVation, Life, Maru, and sOs had limited to no success ( Inno was rookie of the year, but that's about it) in BW, but they are all considered titans (except for Life) in terms of SC2 achievement. | ||
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Trizz
Netherlands1318 Posts
On July 26 2018 12:41 fishjie wrote: i dont see why its so hard to understand. when the game first came out the understanding was more limited and the mechanics weren't quite there. the people who were playing were people who couldn't cut it in brood war. that's why when kespa switched over everyone got stomped, just like the "controversial" article elephant in the room predicted. only it wasn't flash and jaedong doing the heavy stomping, but rather soulkey, innovation, rain and etc. but otherwise the article was spot on. yes players from today could travel back in time and just STOMP the early GSLs. just look at the creep spread FFS, nestea had NONE at first. and nestea, venerable veteran champion that he is, would not make it in today's cutthroat gsl at all. but take even a foreigner like scarlett and she could go in and win the first GSL ez pz. I think the argument was that plat/dia players from today would be able to win early GSLs, not the best foreigners from today in early GSLs. | ||
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Wrathsc2
United States2025 Posts
On July 26 2018 13:13 Trizz wrote: I think the argument was that plat/dia players from today would be able to win early GSLs, not the best foreigners from today in early GSLs. i certainly believe mid masters players could | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On July 26 2018 14:14 Wrathsc2 wrote: i certainly believe mid masters players could That's exactly my point, there's just no way in hell they could, perhaps the top 10 GM players on NA or EU could win a GSL back then, but random mid to high master players (let alone diamond)? That's completely delusional, I got to masters in 1 day after a 4 year hiatus and I am utterly terrible. | ||
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lohdon
170 Posts
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
But on early wol, they don't and the first things they tried was 1 base build. But as soon as old star pros would realize their builds are bad and they start picking the right builds, they would stay on top of the ladder. Of course as no time travel exists, this will never happen, so it's just a way to say that everyone improves even those who stay on the same league are better. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17147 Posts
On July 26 2018 21:23 Tyrhanius wrote: so it's just a way to say that everyone improves even those who stay on the same league are better. to add to this point... the first thing that happens a few months after the release of mainstream popular games like Wings of Liberty is that the casual noobs leave the competitive modes of the game. this makes the ladder harder. so if you were in Platinum in 2011 and were still in Platinum in 2015 you were a far better player. I'm not sure how well this applies to the very top and very bottom of the ladder though. In the middle of the ladder the casual noobs leaving makes a big difference. | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
On July 26 2018 13:13 FrkFrJss wrote: Except that the majority of players who dominate now were like B teamers in Broodwar or the fact that players like MC among others stood with the best of the best despite playing from the beginning. While I agree that the over skill was lower then than it is now, I wouldn't really call it bad. And the thing is, the game was much different. You take a fm now, and they have to relearn all the WoL maps and removals of units, and I doubt they'd do that well. Cause the whole point is that you drop a low tier fm or pro player now, and they can pretty much win in WoL at their current skill. The idea that the "good" players were just the guys who were pretty good at BW is just false. Most of the good people now were low tier in BW. There are a few who could have been good, like TY, soO, and Fantasy (who was already very good st BW). The main principle of the Elephant in the Room article was that it would be the good and great players from BW who would stomp the competition. But players like Zest, Taeja, herO, INnoVation, Life, Maru, and sOs had limited to no success ( Inno was rookie of the year, but that's about it) in BW, but they are all considered titans (except for Life) in terms of SC2 achievement. MC was dominating until kespa switched over. he hung on for a while but eventually retired to coach LOL. look at all the original champions like MC, Nestea, MVP (ok he had a wrist injury so he has a legit excuse), MMA, DRG, jjakji, leenock and so on. They couldn't compete with kespa. just look at the first GSL. no creep spread and missed mules. in the final hopetorture vs fruitdealer, i recall clearly one part where hopetorture suddenly dropped a ton of mules because he had forgotten. so yes, a master from today could stomp hopetorture. hopetorture still streams randomly today and you can see he doesn't do so well. i don't think he'd be that dominant on the ladder. or how about tsl rain (not protoss kespa rain)? or inca? or virus? or TOP? you forgot all the players who were competing in the GSL back then - not all of them were nestea/mc/mvp level. players from today could definitely wipe the floor with them, and this is proven because you can wawtch some of these forgotten ones stream from time to time. the elephant in room incorrectly predicted that flash and jaedong would dominate. but it was correct that kespa would dominate. the early players were nowhere near as good as the later players. The only player from back then who is still a god now is Maru. But even so, early maru is nowhere near as good as current maru. His play has vastly improved. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4958 Posts
On July 27 2018 05:25 fishjie wrote: MC was dominating until kespa switched over. he hung on for a while but eventually retired to coach LOL. look at all the original champions like MC, Nestea, MVP (ok he had a wrist injury so he has a legit excuse), MMA, DRG, jjakji, leenock and so on. They couldn't compete with kespa. just look at the first GSL. no creep spread and missed mules. in the final hopetorture vs fruitdealer, i recall clearly one part where hopetorture suddenly dropped a ton of mules because he had forgotten. so yes, a master from today could stomp hopetorture. hopetorture still streams randomly today and you can see he doesn't do so well. i don't think he'd be that dominant on the ladder. or how about tsl rain (not protoss kespa rain)? or inca? or virus? or TOP? you forgot all the players who were competing in the GSL back then - not all of them were nestea/mc/mvp level. players from today could definitely wipe the floor with them, and this is proven because you can wawtch some of these forgotten ones stream from time to time. the elephant in room incorrectly predicted that flash and jaedong would dominate. but it was correct that kespa would dominate. the early players were nowhere near as good as the later players. The only player from back then who is still a god now is Maru. But even so, early maru is nowhere near as good as current maru. His play has vastly improved. Well I mean.... Maru has been playing sc2 8+ years for a living.... | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On July 26 2018 21:23 Tyrhanius wrote: Masters could make it because they have now the knowledge. We now know 1 base strat doesn't work. But on early wol, they don't and the first things they tried was 1 base build. But as soon as old star pros would realize their builds are bad and they start picking the right builds, they would stay on top of the ladder. Of course as no time travel exists, this will never happen, so it's just a way to say that everyone improves even those who stay on the same league are better. did you even play early wol? 1 base builds were the only thing that worked | ||
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