On June 27 2018 03:17 BamBam wrote: You know whats funny? This is the exact same conversation that occured a year after sc2 came out when referring to old meta builds about BW (think of the time of like grrrrrr). Know what the majority response was? "Everyone was just figuring out how to macro, most people didnt know what hotkeys were!"
Then fast forward to 2011 the consensus was "we're much more advanced and tech savy today compared to early bw days, the peak has been reached easily"
And now here we are again - nearly 10 years after sc2 released and we're talking about how the early sc2 pros were crap compared to today, and now a modern masters could've won early gsl. Idk, maybe its just human nature to look back and just naturally assume people in the past were idiots (we do the same thing to our ancestors). But the truth of it is, because of how the game played back then they were amazing at what they did - and if they were brought forward from 2011 to today, they would still be the same level they are now (well, except fruitdealer...)
There are things that 2010 players had to deal with that current players just have no idea about, like how SHIT the maps actually were (Steppes of War?), the fact you didnt have rebindable hotkeys, there were no vipers for anti air blobs, etc...
Agreed, as someone who played a lot in beta and early WOL, players were very precise and put a lot of work into their practice and builds, it's just that most of those old builds aren't viable anymore.
I remember a lot more games being decided by small groups of units in the early game. Rush distances were tiny and perfect micro was required for early engages to either win the game or avoid being killed.
Dont forget that returning player ( like mvp,squirtle,mma, forgg etc ) struggle a lot to play at a top tier level they were back then, for example mvp actually struggle to maintain low gm level in korean server. So in my opinion it's not fair to say that top tier player back then could compete with current level of pro who didnt stop playing for years.
On June 27 2018 03:59 Crozo64 wrote: Dont forget that returning player ( like mvp,squirtle,mma, forgg etc ) struggle a lot to play at a top tier level they were back then, for example mvp actually struggle to maintain low gm level in korean server. So in my opinion it's not fair to say that top tier player back then could compete with current level of pro who didnt stop playing for years.
Mvp struggles a lot because he has injuries that prevent him from playing fast without being in pain
Early SC2 in Korea doesn't contain the best RTS players cause they were all playing Broodwar still. The people who tried their luck in SC2 at the start were the people who couldn't make it in Broodwar cause they didn't have enough skill.
That's not the whole story but it's a major chapter.
On June 26 2018 21:11 Poopi wrote: What is the hotkey to take away units from groups? I see pros doing it on stream but I don't know the hotkey and it's really frustrating as it's a really useful feature (especially now that all three races harass a lot)
Alt + X (0-9) removes units from their old hotkey and puts them in a new control group X. If X already existed, X is overridden with the new units.
Alt + Shift + X (0-9) removes units from their old hotkey and adds them to a control group X. If X already existed, the selected units are added to the original units in control group X.
Thank you very much!
By the way, is the thread serious or is it just bait/trolling?
You should not forget, that players today saw most strats at some points, while back then people had to think way more about what to do next. If you have to think about that all the time, you can't play as fast as you would if you already knew the response.
On June 27 2018 04:19 Nebuchad wrote: Early SC2 in Korea doesn't contain the best RTS players cause they were all playing Broodwar still. The people who tried their luck in SC2 at the start were the people who couldn't make it in Broodwar cause they didn't have enough skill.
That's not the whole story but it's a major chapter.
I suppose it's debateable how far some of the current SC2 pros would have done in BW had they not switched. Stats, Innovation, and TY are all players who had some success in BW before switching. It's possible that they could have become great in BW, but we'll never know.
But the thing is, the idea that early SC2 wasn't as good because it had worse BW is not entirely accurate. There are some BW pros that did very well, but unlike what the infamous Elephant in the Room article predicted, the best BW pros like Flash, Jaedong, Jangbi, Stork, Fantasy, and others struggled to be the best in SC2. Yes, they won tournaments, and Jaedong got many silvers, but they struggled to win or do as well as they did in BW.
I do think the influx of BW pros helped in the sense that you had experienced gamers coming to SC2, but I think it's more because of the team house effect and Proleague.
On June 27 2018 04:19 Nebuchad wrote: Early SC2 in Korea doesn't contain the best RTS players cause they were all playing Broodwar still. The people who tried their luck in SC2 at the start were the people who couldn't make it in Broodwar cause they didn't have enough skill.
That's not the whole story but it's a major chapter.
I suppose it's debateable how far some of the current SC2 pros would have done in BW had they not switched. Stats, Innovation, and TY are all players who had some success in BW before switching. It's possible that they could have become great in BW, but we'll never know.
But the thing is, the idea that early SC2 wasn't as good because it had worse BW is not entirely accurate. There are some BW pros that did very well, but unlike what the infamous Elephant in the Room article predicted, the best BW pros like Flash, Jaedong, Jangbi, Stork, Fantasy, and others struggled to be the best in SC2. Yes, they won tournaments, and Jaedong got many silvers, but they struggled to win or do as well as they did in BW.
I do think the influx of BW pros helped in the sense that you had experienced gamers coming to SC2, but I think it's more because of the team house effect and Proleague.
Stats Bogus and TY weren't there in 2011. And sure I'm not arguing that nobody from that time would have become great in Broodwar, I'm sure some would have, I'm just saying a lot of them decided to play SC2 because Broodwar wasn't doing it for them, either because they hadn't been noticed yet and would have after some time (Maru, TaeJa) or because they just weren't good enough (MarineKing, FruitDealer), or because they were on the decline (RainBOw, NesTea). It's mostly the B Team. In any B team there are people who will end up in the A Team later, but most of them are there for a good reason.
On June 27 2018 04:19 Nebuchad wrote: Early SC2 in Korea doesn't contain the best RTS players cause they were all playing Broodwar still. The people who tried their luck in SC2 at the start were the people who couldn't make it in Broodwar cause they didn't have enough skill.
That's not the whole story but it's a major chapter.
I suppose it's debateable how far some of the current SC2 pros would have done in BW had they not switched. Stats, Innovation, and TY are all players who had some success in BW before switching. It's possible that they could have become great in BW, but we'll never know.
But the thing is, the idea that early SC2 wasn't as good because it had worse BW is not entirely accurate. There are some BW pros that did very well, but unlike what the infamous Elephant in the Room article predicted, the best BW pros like Flash, Jaedong, Jangbi, Stork, Fantasy, and others struggled to be the best in SC2. Yes, they won tournaments, and Jaedong got many silvers, but they struggled to win or do as well as they did in BW.
I do think the influx of BW pros helped in the sense that you had experienced gamers coming to SC2, but I think it's more because of the team house effect and Proleague.
Most of the non-BW players who ended up being good at SC2 weren't playing yet in 2010, except for Maru who had the excuse of being very young.
2010 was full of players like Ensnare who could have been stomped by any competent BW pro, not just Flash and Jaedong.
On June 27 2018 04:19 Nebuchad wrote: Early SC2 in Korea doesn't contain the best RTS players cause they were all playing Broodwar still. The people who tried their luck in SC2 at the start were the people who couldn't make it in Broodwar cause they didn't have enough skill.
That's not the whole story but it's a major chapter.
I suppose it's debateable how far some of the current SC2 pros would have done in BW had they not switched. Stats, Innovation, and TY are all players who had some success in BW before switching. It's possible that they could have become great in BW, but we'll never know.
But the thing is, the idea that early SC2 wasn't as good because it had worse BW is not entirely accurate. There are some BW pros that did very well, but unlike what the infamous Elephant in the Room article predicted, the best BW pros like Flash, Jaedong, Jangbi, Stork, Fantasy, and others struggled to be the best in SC2. Yes, they won tournaments, and Jaedong got many silvers, but they struggled to win or do as well as they did in BW.
I do think the influx of BW pros helped in the sense that you had experienced gamers coming to SC2, but I think it's more because of the team house effect and Proleague.
Stats Bogus and TY weren't there in 2011. And sure I'm not arguing that nobody from that time would have become great in Broodwar, I'm sure some would have, I'm just saying a lot of them decided to play SC2 because Broodwar wasn't doing it for them, either because they hadn't been noticed yet and would have after some time (Maru, TaeJa) or because they just weren't good enough (MarineKing, FruitDealer), or because they were on the decline (RainBOw, NesTea). It's mostly the B Team. In any B team there are people who will end up in the A Team later, but most of them are there for a good reason.
But the quote I was responding to was the idea that the players were bad or worse because the better players of BW had yet to switch to SC2.
MMA, MVP, and MC all joined fairly early on into SC2, and they were quite good for a long time.
On June 27 2018 12:22 Durp wrote: Because you could 1 base all in.
This. The maps allowed for really stupid 1 base strategies that didn't require you to be great at macro becaused eco was super low.
The skill level gap between 2010 and say early 2012 was huge. But between 2012 and today it's mostly micro plays that improved. The macro is pretty much the same skill-wise, it's just the economy that's different.
On JuNe 27 2018 04:24 Psychobabas wrote: It's the maps.
You could be in your opponents base from your base in literally 5 seconds (example: Lost Temple close positions)
You cant expect much to come out of such scenarios.
I'M glad someone mentioned it. The big thing is everyone had to play either Cheese or Anti-Cheese. We'd be into the 2nd Code S season before the real late game metas even begun to take hold. Why? The First wave of Super big maps made for some nutty matches.
Though this thread has, also, rather hilariously brought back up the readon IdrA didn't like SC2: you couldn't just out-skill your opponent. Especially in early WoL, so much was just Rock-Paper-Scissors. Maps sizes & starting positioning took far too long to figure out. (Anyone Remember Close Positions on Metalopolis? Or Steppes of War?) The game emphasized only certain mechanics for a long time.
Beyond just basic mechanics, it's a matter of figuring out how much time to spend practicing specific ones. No one would practice BW Muta micro if it wasn't so important. MKP showed that Bio w/ Micro was viable against Zerg, which is what really changed matters. Once established, all of the pros spent the time putting the work in. That's what we really see as a game is "figured out".
On JuNe 27 2018 04:24 Psychobabas wrote: It's the maps.
You could be in your opponents base from your base in literally 5 seconds (example: Lost Temple close positions)
You cant expect much to come out of such scenarios.
I'M glad someone mentioned it. The big thing is everyone had to play either Cheese or Anti-Cheese. We'd be into the 2nd Code S season before the real late game metas even begun to take hold. Why? The First wave of Super big maps made for some nutty matches.
Though this thread has, also, rather hilariously brought back up the readon IdrA didn't like SC2: you couldn't just out-skill your opponent. Especially in early WoL, so much was just Rock-Paper-Scissors. Maps sizes & starting positioning took far too long to figure out. (Anyone Remember Close Positions on Metalopolis? Or Steppes of War?) The game emphasized only certain mechanics for a long time.
Beyond just basic mechanics, it's a matter of figuring out how much time to spend practicing specific ones. No one would practice BW Muta micro if it wasn't so important. MKP showed that Bio w/ Micro was viable against Zerg, which is what really changed matters. Once established, all of the pros spent the time putting the work in. That's what we really see as a game is "figured out".
I would also point out that when we started to get the bigger maps, and as balance changes started to change things up, we did end up with some longer matches in the WoL days that showed who the strongest players were of the era. Damn shame a lot of that time was spent in the broodlord/infestor meta that was so bloody boring to watch.
My two cents on the subject is nobody can be perfect at RTS. It has such a high skill ceiling that things will develop basically forever, as long as map pools don't remain stale in a given game. 10 years from now, high level pros will probably still make current pros look bad. Doesn't mean they are bad, though. They just lack 10 years of context and practice.
Just one of those paradoxes which low skilled players imagine to themselves: if I could get back to 2001 now, I would win OSL instead of Grrr.... If I could get back to 1997 now, I would win Ferrari instead of Thresh.
You can't. Deal with it and be happy, because another 100 MMR doesn't make you worse or better person.
it's because people who have played the game since early days have 8 years of muscle memory relating to almost any unit interaction that can happen in any stage of the game (except for units that were added in expansions obviously)
you can leave the game for 2 years and come back not knowing the meta or strategies but still crush people by macroing competently and using your muscle memory to micro effectively. for pro players this effect is even greater because they spend hours and hours out of every day practicing and discussing, so when they learn unit interactions they learn them intimately
pros in particular have so much game experience that they have an insane ability to read the game state and know when there are resources "missing" and how to identify cheeses and transitions without directly scouting anything. that kind of knowledge continues to develop over years
On June 26 2018 09:01 billynasty wrote: Back in the day, humans used to live in caves. They were so bad back then they didnt even know what a wheel was. Were Neanderthals really that bad or did it just take time for them to learn & evolve?
Rome wasn't built in a day. In a game that has as many variables & unit interactions as Starcraft 2, i think it's only common sense that the skill of the players at the beginning of the games existence would pale in comparison to where pro's are at today. The players back then were inventing the meta. They didn't have the luxury of years worth of practice, vods, guides etc
It is safe to say however that the pro's today are higher skilled than the pros during the WOL era. But to say they were 'bad', that just seems to be unfair imo.
Obviously I'm not talking down MVP or anything, I was mostly talking about very early stuff like the Maru match I was referring to (linked below), where Cella sits on 18 drones, some larvas and 300 minerals, and doesn't make drones, and where he waits until he has 500 gaz to throw down the 1.5 base spire (after cancelling a roach warren). So yeah I guess we could say "oh well he was waiting to see he was getting 1 base all-in so that's why he didn't build more drones" or "tech paths weren't understood back then", but it still seems weird to me.
EDIT : Alright I checked the other games of that series and it's not thaaaat bad
I haven't rewatched the match yet (maybe will sometime though lol), but I remember that match. I was a huge Cella fan back in the day. I do remember watching this game was very painful and that it was very sloppy on both sides. Maru was like 13 at the time so I can excuse him, and I remember as a spectator it felt a bit close until the ending when it was getting hopeless for Cella, though if I were to rewatch it now I might see something completely different.
Anyway I was watching Cella's stream a ton back in the day and helping him coach students and stuff and watching him play on ladder. He was definitely smart and good at the game, even if he wasn't GSL Code A level. He was Korean masters and high masters / GM on NA. IIRC that GSL match vs Maru was SUPER early, back when everyone sucked at the game. Even just a few months later the skill drastically improved.
I can't remember if I was watching Cella before his match vs Maru or if I only found out about him after. But either way, I can say thinking back on my memories of how he played on ladder, part of the reason why everyone looks so bad is because of the meta, like others said. Maps were terrible, races weren't balanced, there were all kinds of jank rushes and builds and other shit including bugs.
I do agree it is funny that pros were so bad back then, and how confusing it is. Like if you were anything decent at BW (like let's just say roughly you were even C level on ICCUP), you should be able to at least just do a simple MMM macro build right? Well not completely correct, again because of the imbalances and weird timings and rushes. '
But could a diamond player from today compete in GSL? Fuck yes, that is no exaggeration. If you took the mechanics and intuition and intelligence of a diamond player today, and let them brush up on their WoL BOs and get familiar with the maps for a couple hours, no doubt they would be able to compete and even beat GSL pros. This is especially with how much better diamond players in LotV are now, compared to back in HotS. Back in WoL/HotS, I was a mid master Terran and I was able to offrace as Protoss and go almost 50/50 vs low masters on ladder, and I could easy 2-gate or canon rush or do any amalgation of protoss cheese with sloppy timings and beat low masters players. You can't troll low masters players like that anymore, nor Diamond players, or at least not without a more solid plan and BO than the ones I improvised, or without being wayyy better than them.
High diamond in LotV feels like mid masters in HotS, at LEAST. I felt that even mid diamond could be around mid masters in HotS. A high diamond player of today could definitely have done better than Maru or Cella (that match was one of the worst level of skill displayed at the time IIRC), but also would have a good chance to beat the best players of the time. If you look at Fruitdealer vs HopeTorture/Rainbow, it's like... wtf? Terran was SO imbalanced and broken at the time, how could you possibly be stomped so hard vs Zerg which was really weak? All the maps were tiny and super Terran favored. Honestly Fruitdealer is a god, a miracle performer. It definitely wasn't easy for him but he pulled off (relatively) amazing play after amazing play to defeat a huge lineup of Terrans.
Imagine a player of diamond or even heck platinum level today, going back and doing: -111 marine tank banshee push vs Protoss (one of the most broken BOs ever before it got nerfed) -going mech in TvT back when people thought it wasn't viable but actually it was busted and got nerfed later (because Blue Flame was disgusting back then and mech terrans literally won early-mid game just with mass hellions vs Bio) -beating Zergs early game just by churning out 1 marine and 1 hellion at a time and kiting and killing all their Queens because they had 3.5 range, and following up with Banshees to contain them on 2 base if they didn't outright die while you took 3 bases and maxed out, etc. -doing 11/11 2 rax rush vs zerg and containing them with 2 bunkers at the bottom of their main ramp
Anyway, it's partly because SC2 is so different from SC1, it has a different feel and mechanics, and wasn't balanced yet. And yes, pro players' macro did slip often back then, and many pros were shit if you were to rate them by their "mechanics" or macro. As you can see, many of the players who were in GSL back then, fell off hard and could no longer keep up with skill of the truly good players. And even many of GSL's best back then fell off hard (Tester for example was already falling off when GSL started) and retired. It's fun to discuss the reasons why they seemed to suck so hard, we won't know 100% for sure, but I think it's a mix of things lol.
On June 26 2018 09:01 billynasty wrote: Back in the day, humans used to live in caves. They were so bad back then they didnt even know what a wheel was. Were Neanderthals really that bad or did it just take time for them to learn & evolve?
Rome wasn't built in a day. In a game that has as many variables & unit interactions as Starcraft 2, i think it's only common sense that the skill of the players at the beginning of the games existence would pale in comparison to where pro's are at today. The players back then were inventing the meta. They didn't have the luxury of years worth of practice, vods, guides etc
It is safe to say however that the pro's today are higher skilled than the pros during the WOL era. But to say they were 'bad', that just seems to be unfair imo.
Obviously I'm not talking down MVP or anything, I was mostly talking about very early stuff like the Maru match I was referring to (linked below), where Cella sits on 18 drones, some larvas and 300 minerals, and doesn't make drones, and where he waits until he has 500 gaz to throw down the 1.5 base spire (after cancelling a roach warren). So yeah I guess we could say "oh well he was waiting to see he was getting 1 base all-in so that's why he didn't build more drones" or "tech paths weren't understood back then", but it still seems weird to me.
EDIT : Alright I checked the other games of that series and it's not thaaaat bad
But could a diamond player from today compete in GSL? Fuck yes, that is no exaggeration.
This is not an exaggeration. It is plain dellusional.
If you took the mechanics and intuition and intelligence of a diamond player today, and let them brush up on their WoL BOs and get familiar with the maps for a couple hours, no doubt they would be able to compete and even beat GSL pros. This is especially with how much better diamond players in LotV are now, compared to back in HotS. Back in WoL/HotS, I was a mid master Terran and I was able to offrace as Protoss and go almost 50/50 vs low masters on ladder, and I could easy 2-gate or canon rush or do any amalgation of protoss cheese with sloppy timings and beat low masters players. You can't troll low masters players like that anymore, nor Diamond players, or at least not without a more solid plan and BO than the ones I improvised, or without being wayyy better than them.
When master league was first introduced, I switched from bw and wc3 and started playing sc2 and it took me 40 games to hit masters. After that it was like running against a brick wall trying to beat even mid-master players... When LotV went free to play I played some ladder and it took 80 games to reach master 3... and that's after 5 years of not playing any multiplayer RTS besides maybe 100 or so 3v3 games in sc2... Not only did I hit master but I was able to take games from players with 500 more mmr than me often enough... My mechanics are terrible and I basically don't know any build order after the 90 sec mark at best. I am certainly not better than I used to be 8 years ago and considering that I hit a wall back then, I feel very confident in saying that I would get smashed just as hard by even mediocre master players from the times of WoL now as I was back then.
Imagine a player of diamond or even heck platinum level today, going back and doing: -111 marine tank banshee push vs Protoss (one of the most broken BOs ever before it got nerfed) -going mech in TvT back when people thought it wasn't viable but actually it was busted and got nerfed later (because Blue Flame was disgusting back then and mech terrans literally won early-mid game just with mass hellions vs Bio) -beating Zergs early game just by churning out 1 marine and 1 hellion at a time and kiting and killing all their Queens because they had 3.5 range, and following up with Banshees to contain them on 2 base if they didn't outright die while you took 3 bases and maxed out, etc. -doing 11/11 2 rax rush vs zerg and containing them with 2 bunkers at the bottom of their main ramp
A diamond player nowadays (just like back then) can not follow a build order if his life depended on it, never mind bring any acceptable level of multitasking to pull of even the most simple rushes in a decent manner.
On June 26 2018 09:01 billynasty wrote: Back in the day, humans used to live in caves. They were so bad back then they didnt even know what a wheel was. Were Neanderthals really that bad or did it just take time for them to learn & evolve?
Rome wasn't built in a day. In a game that has as many variables & unit interactions as Starcraft 2, i think it's only common sense that the skill of the players at the beginning of the games existence would pale in comparison to where pro's are at today. The players back then were inventing the meta. They didn't have the luxury of years worth of practice, vods, guides etc
It is safe to say however that the pro's today are higher skilled than the pros during the WOL era. But to say they were 'bad', that just seems to be unfair imo.
Obviously I'm not talking down MVP or anything, I was mostly talking about very early stuff like the Maru match I was referring to (linked below), where Cella sits on 18 drones, some larvas and 300 minerals, and doesn't make drones, and where he waits until he has 500 gaz to throw down the 1.5 base spire (after cancelling a roach warren). So yeah I guess we could say "oh well he was waiting to see he was getting 1 base all-in so that's why he didn't build more drones" or "tech paths weren't understood back then", but it still seems weird to me.
If you took the mechanics and intuition and intelligence of a diamond player today, and let them brush up on their WoL BOs and get familiar with the maps for a couple hours, no doubt they would be able to compete and even beat GSL pros. This is especially with how much better diamond players in LotV are now, compared to back in HotS. Back in WoL/HotS, I was a mid master Terran and I was able to offrace as Protoss and go almost 50/50 vs low masters on ladder, and I could easy 2-gate or canon rush or do any amalgation of protoss cheese with sloppy timings and beat low masters players. You can't troll low masters players like that anymore, nor Diamond players, or at least not without a more solid plan and BO than the ones I improvised, or without being wayyy better than them.
When master league was first introduced, I switched from bw and wc3 and started playing sc2 and it took me 40 games to hit masters. After that it was like running against a brick wall trying to beat even mid-master players... When LotV went free to play I played some ladder and it took 80 games to reach master 3... and that's after 5 years of not playing any multiplayer RTS besides maybe 100 or so 3v3 games in sc2... Not only did I hit master but I was able to take games from players with 500 more mmr than me often enough... My mechanics are terrible and I basically don't know any build order after the 90 sec mark at best. I am certainly not better than I used to be 8 years ago and considering that I hit a wall back then, I feel very confident in saying that I would get smashed just as hard by even mediocre master players from the times of WoL now as I was back then.
Imagine a player of diamond or even heck platinum level today, going back and doing: -111 marine tank banshee push vs Protoss (one of the most broken BOs ever before it got nerfed) -going mech in TvT back when people thought it wasn't viable but actually it was busted and got nerfed later (because Blue Flame was disgusting back then and mech terrans literally won early-mid game just with mass hellions vs Bio) -beating Zergs early game just by churning out 1 marine and 1 hellion at a time and kiting and killing all their Queens because they had 3.5 range, and following up with Banshees to contain them on 2 base if they didn't outright die while you took 3 bases and maxed out, etc. -doing 11/11 2 rax rush vs zerg and containing them with 2 bunkers at the bottom of their main ramp
A diamond player nowadays (just like back then) can not follow a build order if his life depended on it, never mind bring any acceptable level of multitasking to pull of even the most simple rushes in a decent manner.
It sounds like you were gone for a majority of WoL and HotS?
You didn't really have to "follow" a build order for those builds, they were completely broken. The timings were very loose and you would still hit with something very powerful, especially the TvP 111 attack. The tvz bunker rush would end the game once the 2 bunkers start being built at the bottom. Killing the zerg straight up with marine/hellion/banshee, or just containing them with hellion banshee, was very easy to do as long as you didn't die to a roach all-in as the roaches marched across the map trying to survive the banshees shooting them down as they went across the map. I'll give you that going mech tvt would require a little more macro and mechanics, but mech was still incredibly powerful and no one knew. Knowledge is key.
I'm not saying a diamond player of back then competing with GSL players... I'm saying a diamond player of today, with knowledge of what was broken and what players did back then that was bad, could easily win. Look at Fruitdealer vs Rainbow, and look at how terrible whatever Rainbow is doing. It was an ugly mix of bio and mech, they didn't even know at the time that it was bad. He had so many different units and never used a single one of them well, he would have been better off stream lining his composition.
I do have a really hard time imagining you came back with almost literally no serious 1v1 practice, and hit masters. But maybe you are naturally very good at RTS, good for you. There are various reasons to explain why you could hit masters today though with little practice, but also believe that you wouldn't be able to beat WoL players of back then. It could be that you have good game sense for example and thus thrive in LotV's current meta (which is quite diverse and active even in the early game, and the game can go in many directions quickly that players may be unfamiliar with), but are weaker when it comes to following BOs or being knowledgeable about all the timings to defend against back then (which would obviously put you at a disadvantage in the WoL meta which was less macro-favored and had rushes and cheeses running rampant). There's such a thing as people being good at different things, not all diamond players are alike and not all masters players are alike.
I didn't play LotV until a month ago, so I don't know what the ladder was like back then, maybe it was different, but anyway... That doesn't mean that diamond players don't follow build orders with at least some decency though just because you were successful without following BOs. I for sure do follow BOs and I'm in high diamond right now. I did follow strict macro build orders back in WoL and HotS as well, even if my macro would fall apart more as the game went on. But I also could beat GM zergs with Mech in HotS since it was so powerful until they nerfed mass Ravens so you can't just sit home and defend all game. If I keep playing I could probably improve fast and get into masters soon (went 18-1 in the last 19 games on ladder), but right now I'm still learning the basic naunces of what certain compositions are good and bad in what situations, since I'm still really unfamiliar with the new units and race changes. My weakness is knowing the basic responses to early cheese and timings, and composition switches. This is especially true because I'm a mech player. My macro, mechanics, micro, and multitasking are pretty decent. We could easily be good and bad at different things.
Look at the games they played back then, their macro was often terrible outside of following short cheese builds, and they had no idea what they were doing. Their game sense was very different and lacking, and so many broken builds and strategies weren't known about until they came about. Someone from now going back in time would have an easy time. Maybe you wouldn't be able to, if you weren't playing or watching for a long time between WoL and LotV (not sure if you were or weren't watching SC2 over the years). But I do not see how someone going back with full knowledge of how the meta evolved and what builds were broken and why, would not be able to beat some GSL players. Maybe not stomp with 100% winrate, but with some preparation time for each GSL round, they could potentially get pretty far. There would not be enough time for the opponents to learn on the fly how to defend against those builds or strategies, especially because many of them required actual balance changes and players could not come up with any decent answer (basically all 4 things I listed earlier). Or drastic map pool changes (main ramps needing neutral lowered depots at the bottom to prevent bunker rushes, naturals no longer having huge cliffs to defend against, map size increasing by a ton, main base size reduction to nerf drops and hidden proxies, etc.)
I don't know how you can call me delusional, but whatever, it's your opinion, I can't convince you otherwise, this is my opinion from my experiences. I don't have any bias or reason to try to convince people that diamond players of today could beat GSL players of back then, it is simply something that is pretty clear to me to be very possible.
EPT
