EPTAt least this thread give us this pun
Why were early sc2 players so bad? - Page 3
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Serimek
France2274 Posts
At least this thread give us this pun | ||
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Syn Harvest
United States191 Posts
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On June 26 2018 08:16 VengefulTree wrote: I just watched Maru's first televised win and I'm honestly very confused by the level of play displayed. How is this even possible? It's not like these guys are playing RTS for the first time, they are actual pros who spent theirs days practicing the game! Maru was 13 when he first played in GSL, I can guarantee you he wasn't a BW pro, and neither were many of the 2010/2011 players. Former semi-pro/practice partners maybe, others from the olden days and not in their prime, others never having been that notable etc. The top tier BW pros only came into SC2 around 2012-2013. | ||
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Slydie
1927 Posts
On June 26 2018 19:59 207aicila wrote: Maru was 13 when he first played in GSL, I can guarantee you he wasn't a BW pro, and neither were many of the 2010/2011 players. Former semi-pro/practice partners maybe, others from the olden days and not in their prime, others never having been that notable etc. The top tier BW pros only came into SC2 around 2012-2013. Are you bringing up this discussion? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/final-edits/221896-the-elephant-in-the-room The competetive scene of any new sport or game is destined to look bad in retrospect, no matter the background of the participants. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4514 Posts
At the start, there was no all-army key, no worker number indications on bases, no hotkey stealing mechanic, no rapid fire mechanic. I don't exactly remember just how customizable the hotkey layout was at the very start of WoL, but a lot of little things that really make a difference to overall gameplay were added later on in the game. Defending in 3 different locations was much harder even as recent as hots, when you couldnt easily take away units from groups like you can now. This of course is a small nuance, but it does help, especially players slightly below the top level. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
Edit : Also what ret said. | ||
Poopi
France12906 Posts
On June 26 2018 20:51 Liquid`Ret wrote: Seems like noone has pointed out that they also made the game easier to play now. At the start, there was no all-army key, no worker number indications on bases, no hotkey stealing mechanic, no rapid fire mechanic. I don't exactly remember just how customizable the hotkey layout was at the very start of WoL, but a lot of little things that really make a difference to overall gameplay were added later on in the game. Defending in 3 different locations was much harder even as recent as hots, when you couldnt easily take away units from groups like you can now. This of course is a small nuance, but it does help, especially players slightly below the top level. What is the hotkey to take away units from groups? I see pros doing it on stream but I don't know the hotkey and it's really frustrating as it's a really useful feature (especially now that all three races harass a lot) | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3463 Posts
LotV now is also a lot more execution based than back then where strategy played more of a role. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On June 26 2018 20:08 Slydie wrote: Are you bringing up this discussion? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/final-edits/221896-the-elephant-in-the-room The competetive scene of any new sport or game is destined to look bad in retrospect, no matter the background of the participants. No. OP basically said "how can these guys be so bad if they're pros?" My point was that Maru wasn't a pro but an actual child, and many of the others were hardly pros either, only in the nascent SC2 but not in the same way that BW A-teamers like FantaSy, Stork, EffOrt, FBH etc. To expect people who weren't gods at BW (or hadn't been gods in 5+ years in the case of NaDa and BoxeR) to perform in SC2 after only 6 months of play at the same level as BW gods who had been top dogs for 3+ years and counting.... is silly. That was what I was trying to say. | ||
Waxangel
United States33503 Posts
Ofc this is just me talking out of my ass, but it seems plausible, doesn't it? | ||
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Poopi
France12906 Posts
On June 26 2018 22:08 Waxangel wrote: My arm chair theorizing says improvement is inherently incremental, because that's just human nature. Most of the time, people are only capable of conceptualizing the minor improvement they need to make to beat the status quo. Thus, we build on such minor improvements, slowly inching the status quo forward. The revolutions and big leaps are few and far in between, even though they seem so obvious in hindsight. Ofc this is just me talking out of my ass, but it seems plausible, doesn't it? This + what Ret said + the guy that said that the meta was different so you only needed to adapt to the meta / state of the game + what everyone said globally Being "bad" only mean anything relatively to someone else, because otherwise we are all bad in absolute terms since our minds are limited by game engine / hands being so slow. And in each era there were top players | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On June 26 2018 14:21 ScrappyRabbit wrote: BitByBit was a GSL player. That's all I have to add to this discussion. I have no real dog in this fight, I just want us all to realize that this was a thing that happened. Noregret was a GSL player in 2018. | ||
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Jan1997
Norway671 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Completely absurd to say that even today's Master players would have had a chance against those guys back then. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On June 26 2018 21:29 ejozl wrote: It's pretty simple, players nowadays have the number of games or higher of that of the pros of that time, not to mention the amount of time watching SC2. I was Diamond when it was the highest league at release and now I'm Masters 2. I'm arguably not as good now compared to other players, than back then league wise, but I have obviously improved a ton since 8 years ago. LotV now is also a lot more execution based than back then where strategy played more of a role. honestly i dont think this is true. i was high masters in 2011, quit playing sc2 until lotv came out, was high masters in the first few months and quit again. i feel confident if i played about 400-500 games i would be masters 1 even though i haven't played sc2 in 3 years cause the skill level did not change much in the 4 years i didn't play | ||
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BamBam
745 Posts
Then fast forward to 2011 the consensus was "we're much more advanced and tech savy today compared to early bw days, the peak has been reached easily" And now here we are again - nearly 10 years after sc2 released and we're talking about how the early sc2 pros were crap compared to today, and now a modern masters could've won early gsl. Idk, maybe its just human nature to look back and just naturally assume people in the past were idiots (we do the same thing to our ancestors). But the truth of it is, because of how the game played back then they were amazing at what they did - and if they were brought forward from 2011 to today, they would still be the same level they are now (well, except fruitdealer...) There are things that 2010 players had to deal with that current players just have no idea about, like how SHIT the maps actually were (Steppes of War?), the fact you didnt have rebindable hotkeys, there were no vipers for anti air blobs, etc... | ||
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Hider
Denmark9408 Posts
So a lot of practice for the first few months was not spent on practicing later game mechanics. Besides MVP and Julyzerg, it really wasn't the best BW players who transitioned early to Sc2. And even then, if you look at MVP's first Sc2 games in the GSL, he - on every aspect- looked by far the most advanced Sc2 player. His playstyle in late 2010 was a lot more similar to the playstyle all terrans used in mid/late 2011, then any other terran in the world. | ||
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_fool
Netherlands678 Posts
On June 26 2018 21:11 Poopi wrote: What is the hotkey to take away units from groups? I see pros doing it on stream but I don't know the hotkey and it's really frustrating as it's a really useful feature (especially now that all three races harass a lot) Alt + X (0-9) removes units from their old hotkey and puts them in a new control group X. If X already existed, X is overridden with the new units. Alt + Shift + X (0-9) removes units from their old hotkey and adds them to a control group X. If X already existed, the selected units are added to the original units in control group X. | ||
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VamosSC
21 Posts
On June 27 2018 00:02 Jan1997 wrote: Whenever I've watched videos of really really early pro matches from around summer of 2010 and earlier the play looked really basic, 1 base 3 marine 2 marauder 1 medivac pushes etc with no stim and low amount of micro and stuff like that just goes to show how new everyone was. It's cool to see how far the community & pros have come since then. I think a lot of it is due to the worker change, starting with more workers makes small pushes like this seems weak, when in the beta and early WOL some of these timings could be deadly. Later on players learned to defend a lot of the early aggression and transition to mid-game safely. | ||
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