EPTMaru played 8 years to get to this level.
Why were early sc2 players so bad? - Page 2
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
Maru played 8 years to get to this level. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17148 Posts
On June 26 2018 10:37 K3Nyy wrote: Strategies were undiscovered so players looked worse, but I guarantee you that their mechanics and game sense were still way above the average Master level player today. 2010/2011 SjoW could bury any 2018 NA and EU Masters player. He is my favourite non-Korean of all time. Innovative out-of-the-box thinker... super nice guy... great class act... and a scarey killer instinct. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
Also, probably not fair to compare against 2010 - as other posters have mentioned, the game was new and a lot of players were trying to get acclimated to the game. That being said, I don't think the play in 2011 is inferior to today - the map pool and meta are different. Nowadays, a lot of early aggressive options have been neutered due to larger maps, higher starting worker counts, safer expansions, etc. When that early aggressive threat is on your mind, it makes it more difficult to flawlessly execute a build - but it doesn't make the players inferior. | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On June 26 2018 11:47 Arghmyliver wrote: Oh sure, the ~2 minute head start (old time) and changed clock rate make a difference, but being at 15 minutes old time and 2/2 not even started? That was standard for a lot of games.To be fair 1/1 at 15 mins is a different beast in LOTV than it was in WoL. Not to say there wasn't anything to improve, but it's important to remember the fact that WoL and LoTV are almost two completely different games due to balance and mechanical changes. Zergs would sit on Lair tech until the 25 minute mark or later while floating 400/400 minimum the whole time. Players that did go Hive literally used to just skip over Adrenal Glands because apparently a 17% boost to DPS wasn't worth a 200/200 lategame investment (hint: it was). All sorts of terrible macro decision-making abounded that hat nothing to do with "meta" stuff. | ||
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
On June 26 2018 12:33 lichter wrote: it's almost as if it takes a lot of practice to get better at a skill And you. I'm most disappointed in you for biting. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On June 26 2018 11:47 Arghmyliver wrote: To be fair 1/1 at 15 mins is a different beast in LOTV than it was in WoL. Not to say there wasn't anything to improve, but it's important to remember the fact that WoL and LoTV are almost two completely different games due to balance and mechanical changes. pretty much. WoL was much rougher with units like infestors binding MMT and doing damage etc... Need a lot more speed to split to avoid all that stuff. Thankfully Blizzard nerfed them and made it a projectile haha. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On June 26 2018 10:00 ggrrg wrote: We had YEARS of "SC2 is deathball" complaints because top players literally weren't good enough to manage multiple forces effectively on multiple screen widths, much less multiple fronts. The very best players separated themselves by being able to occasionally do multiple things at once without sacrificing effectiveness on any given front, because that was, AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN, better than deathballing. Top players just straight up were not good enough to leverage the benefits of spreading out the map.MKP did not invent anything. Players were well aware that you don't leave your bio under a storm till they die and you dont move command your marines clump into banelings. He became famous because he went pure bio against a player that was basically only ever doing bane busts and beat him with much better mechanics despite technically being up against the counter composition to his own units. Any discussion comparing players from the early GSLs and today's players is utterly pointless, because it was a completely different game. It's one thing to do a double drop while pushing at the front when you start with 12 workers and can afford to be maxed out in under 10 minutes with double upgrades running for a while, it is a whole different ball-park to do it when you have to commit everything you have to this move. Today's Zest would go down just as quickly if warped back in time to WoL where the economy is completely different and half the units are missing as Nestea would if he tried to contest today's LotV pros. Of course, mechanics were pretty often not quite on point during the open seasons, but the last open season ended less than 5 months after sc2's release... Furthermore, due to the lack of crisp timings and build orders some mechanically bad players made some deep runs by simply abusing certain all-ins only to be stomped by somebody who was mechanically way superior than them. Your whole point was that players were "bad" back then. This kind of depends on your definition of back then. If you mean the open season, well.... no kidding... who would have thought that people playing a game released a few months prior would not be doing as well as players practicing for half a decade or longer... If you mean to include the entirety of WoL, then you are plain wrong. Both mechanics and strategies improved rapidly, so that the top players were really good after half an year upon sc2's release, never mind after a whole year. That is now standard top-level play. That's the minimum bar to not get laughed out of the room. There is literally no difference in doing a double drop now while pushing the front than there was then, the only real significant change is that the early game was sped up by a couple of minutes. Sometimes this meant the old early game stretched even longer, but that has no bearing on what players could have been capable of for midgame play had they been better players. Look at Maru vs. Zest: Zest played fine. Not his best, but there was nothing wrong with his play. It was certainly of the caliber of 2014 pros, at minimum. Maru made him look like he was standing still. Just a total stomp. | ||
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ScrappyRabbit
200 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On June 26 2018 11:10 BretZ wrote: i take my comment back, it was rude Wasn't me. Take that back also ! | ||
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DSK
England1110 Posts
FPOVs from GSL 2010. Bear in mind some of these players had BW experience, so you'll see a lot of gameplay based on the mechanics of that game. | ||
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elKa-ThE-FeArEd
Sweden177 Posts
They used those units / compositions because it was op (like morrows tournament win with reaperrush) | ||
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wasilix
Russian Federation80 Posts
On June 26 2018 09:25 IshinShishi wrote: Lets just say that MKP's micro back then was still vastly better than what you see today from a lot of bottom tier terrans, all foreign terrans included. I'd be surprised if today's bronze league terrans (aka bottom tier) had micro comparable to MarineKing's | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
So maybe you can get better then them now by practising a proven safe build 100 times over and have good macro at 3 bases. But back then you would die to a 4-gate someone did a 100 times over. So you would never get to practice your 3 base macro build a 100 times. Most games at 3+ bases were pure improvisation and nobody can have perfect macro while improvising. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On June 26 2018 11:25 BigFan wrote: Anyone remember that reporter who came to cover the first SCII open and played in the preliminaries? He ended up qualifying and actually playing in the Ro32. His name was Apple I believe. I always thought it was hilarious how that worked out. Given, I can only presume he must've at least played the game a bit to make it that far, but it does say a lot about the mechanics at the time lol. What? LOL. Do you have a link to an article or a discussion about this reporter that qualified for the Ro32? | ||
Poopi
France12906 Posts
WoL was very different from LotV in term of set of skills required. There were a lot of terrific players who could eliminate you (MKP, Bomber, Mvp, NesTea, MC, and later a lot more with MMA, Polt, TaeJa, etc.) The metagame was so volatile that you needed to be able to play outside of your comfort zone a lot more than today. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On June 26 2018 08:33 RampancyTW wrote: They really weren't Marine splitting is an incredibly basic skill nowadays that was MIND-BLOWING MICRO when MKP was doing it back in the day Players were sitting on 1/1 upgrades on both sides like 15 minutes into a match, banelings were crashing into marauders even though there was literally nothing else going on to occupy attention, etc. Current top players make off-meta plays and still make it look impressive, players back then were just BAD Remember Fruitdealer's GSL win? Because I do. He transfused a Muta on Metalopolis with a queen and we all went nuts, because that was unbelievable play at the time. He stuck a Nydus next to the production buildings of the Terran on Kulas Ravine or whatever it was with like 8 watchtowers in the middle and the Terran didn't notice. One of the oldschool worms that could be killed by workers in like 3 seconds. The caliber of play was really, really lackluster. yes, in gsl open, 2010 when no one had played the game for longer than 6 months, people sucked. by mid-2011 they were basically the equivalent of pros today | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
Under those circumstances it was barely necessary to figure out new micro tricks. Kyrix' Banebusts had to become a superior strategy in order to force MKP to try out splitting with pure bio. Only then the benefits of having pure bio could be explored. Only since then it became an obligatory skill to split your Marines. Similar story with Inno's perfect paradepush-macro: it seemed more and more unstoppable until DRG figured out how to have a perfect balance of income, droning, ling/baneling and creep spread in order to deflect Innos push. Inno had to become seemingly overpowered to force a new way of micro/macro-mechanics to be found. Only DRGs success made it obligatory to adapt his style and deepen your skillset as a pro. What I'm trying to say: As a pro it is only necessary to learn new skills, if the meta forces you to do so. Let's assume that MKP's Marinesplits were cool and all but just going for marauder/tank would've been much more effective. In this case it would've been dumb to adapt MKP's style instead of mastering bio/tank-play. This is also kind of why MKP looked so lost at some point: he tried so hard to bring his bio-micro to even more perfection that he lacked in other fields and therefore became less and less relevant over time. Maru looked similar at some point but he understood that he had to be more versatile in order to let his godly bio-micro come into play. That's why in a new game skills are only learned step by step, even if the pure mechanical abilities of the players may be already there - they still have to learn how and when to use them in that new game. | ||
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Slydie
1927 Posts
The 2012 WCS happened at an awful time for balance and metagame (Protos Immo-Sentry vs Zerg BL Infestor, Terran was non existant) but the top players had those builds and timings pretty damn nailed. | ||
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