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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
LotV's main downfall is it has done nothing to make the game any less unforgiving (might even be worse), it feels like an arms race for higher tech units where it's hard to digest each stage of the game, and perhaps worst of all is it feels like the strategic depth is at an all-time low. WoL >> HotS >= LotV I'd say | ||
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LDLCmiyako
France25 Posts
Surprised at this. HotS in its first year was amazing and blew LotV's first year out of the water. If you compare current LotV to HotS in 2015 then it's a bit closer and I might agree slightly with these poll results. LotV's main downfall is it has done nothing to make the game any less unforgiving (might even be worse), it feels like an arms race for higher tech units where it's hard to digest each stage of the game, and perhaps worst of all is it feels like the strategic depth is at an all-time low. WoL >> HotS >= LotV I'd say Well in my opinion this poll is biased because people who are gonna vote are mainly people still active on TL/SC mean they are mostly satisfied by how is looks right now. To me sc2 isn't more or less boring to watch, i just feel the games are ending too fast, and bo3 in qualifier even bo5 are too short. | ||
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
LotV is a nightmare to watch and to play. The early game is nonexistent, which gives player little time to think about what to do and removes a layer of strategical depth from the game (Blizzard appears to have forgotten what the S in RTS stands for.) The mid game is almost entirely focused around harass. Whichever player kills more workers will almost always win in this phase, so players focus all of their energy towards either harassing or defending harassment. This creates artificial action in the game: spectators want to see armies clashing, not one liberator killing 10 drones. Defending harassment is also the #1 least fun thing to do in the game, because you know that all of the damage done is basically for free. The late game hasn't changed at all compared to HotS, despite the new economy, and players just seek to max out and move their deathball to victory. Overall, LotV was a compete failure in Blizzard's attempt to revive the game, and the release of SC:R shows that they have no intention of making SC2 any better because they can't make any more money off of anything other than microtransactions. | ||
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Adelull
39 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On April 10 2017 04:15 Solar424 wrote: I always find it funny that people say that LotV is the best SC2 has ever been. The people that disagree with that statement have already left when they realized Blizzard had no idea what they were doing. LotV is a nightmare to watch and to play. The early game is nonexistent, which gives player little time to think about what to do and removes a layer of strategical depth from the game (Blizzard appears to have forgotten what the S in RTS stands for.) The mid game is almost entirely focused around harass. Whichever player kills more workers will almost always win in this phase, so players focus all of their energy towards either harassing or defending harassment. This creates artificial action in the game: spectators want to see armies clashing, not one liberator killing 10 drones. Defending harassment is also the #1 least fun thing to do in the game, because you know that all of the damage done is basically for free. The late game hasn't changed at all compared to HotS, despite the new economy, and players just seek to max out and move their deathball to victory. Overall, LotV was a compete failure in Blizzard's attempt to revive the game, and the release of SC:R shows that they have no intention of making SC2 any better because they can't make any more money off of anything other than microtransactions. Well clearly not everyone agrees with you | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
Also i don't know why people complain. They can still play wol and hots even bw. Most people who complain about the flaws, don't understand the game enough to see that this is the best we can have with an unlimited unit selection, good pathing, superb unit ai, easy macro and easy spell casting. Some of the concepts introduced in sc2 to equalize the better interface are really smart and creative. The design team doesn't get enough credit for. Most of us wouldn't do a better job! Does this mean the game can't be better? No, it can just as all games. But the changes needed are minor and have only a small impact on ladder. I believe with the knowledge we gained over the years about rts, sc3 could be a master piece. But it won't happen because rts games are not popular at the moment. | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28630 Posts
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playa
United States1284 Posts
Adepts are boring and annoying. Nydus is invincible for no reason, whatsoever. The liberator was allowed to annihilate everything for 99% of LotV. If anyone can enjoy watching this... you might die from excitement if you watch remastered. Sick people. 300/200 colossus is ineffective. 300/200 tempest is ineffective. Nothing is even remotely priced correctly. Hate this game. | ||
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Espartaquen
88 Posts
On April 10 2017 02:51 ArtyK wrote: This is a good example of why your reasonning is flawed. "Legacy is the least fun to watch for most people" You must not have followed the game much since it came out then...pretty ironic statement considering the poll in this thread too (granted it's a small percentage of the community) Meanwhile tastosis have repeatedly said this was the best sc2 there ever was, and most pros agreed the core changes were for the best after release. A common trend i see in people thinking this is the worst version to watch is either deathball lovers or people completly ignorant of the scene for the past year and half. First, games and films don´t work the same way. You can force an audience to watch a crappy movie with loads of explosions every once in a while and it can be ok (people go to the cinema once or twice a year), but a game like starcraft is meant to be played thoroughly for many hours. If it is not fun, people will stop playing and watching the game. Second, as much as I like Tastosis it must be understood that they make their living off of casting SC2, it is in their interest to say that this is the best Starcraft there is even if they know it is not (most likely what is happening). Men in their position, Tastosis, Apollo, Kaelaris etc must always keep a public positive attitude because if they criticise Blizzard they risk losing their job a.k.a that which is keeping them well fed. So please don´t hold the words of casters as the absolute truth. Third, that some pros have been vocal and positive about the changes does not mean that most pros believe the changes have been for the best. Actions speak more than words. Last I checked, most of the european, american and korean teams have closed their Starcraft rosters because people are, for the most part, not interested with competitive starcraft anymore. There are fewer pro players and tournaments every year. Less IEMs, less GSLs, less Dreamhacks, less Red Bulls and the list goes on and on. Do you really think that if LOTV was better than HOTS or WOL this would be happening? Sure, some can enjoy this expansion more than the others, but the fact that Starcraft´s relevance has been declining just shows that people do not find this game more appealing than past iterations. A common trend i see in people thinking this is the worst version to watch is either deathball lovers or people completly ignorant of the scene for the past year and half. I think this is a good example of why your reasoning is flawed :D | ||
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
On April 10 2017 05:22 Espartaquen wrote: First, games and films don´t work the same way. You can force an audience to watch a crappy movie with loads of explosions every once in a while and it can be ok (people go to the cinema once or twice a year), but a game like starcraft is meant to be played thoroughly for many hours. If it is not fun, people will stop playing and watching the game. Second, as much as I like Tastosis it must be understood that they make their living off of casting SC2, it is in their interest to say that this is the best Starcraft there is even if they know it is not (most likely what is happening). Men in their position, Tastosis, Apollo, Kaelaris etc must always keep a public positive attitude because if they criticise Blizzard they risk losing their job a.k.a that which is keeping them well fed. So please don´t hold the words of casters as the absolute truth. Third, that some pros have been vocal and positive about the changes does not mean that most pros believe the changes have been for the best. Actions speak more than words. Last I checked, most of the european, american and korean teams have closed their Starcraft rosters because people are, for the most part, not interested with competitive starcraft anymore. There are fewer pro players and tournaments every year. Less IEMs, less GSLs, less Dreamhacks, less Red Bulls and the list goes on and on. Do you really think that if LOTV was better than HOTS or WOL this would be happening? Sure, some can enjoy this expansion more than the others, but the fact that Starcraft´s relevance has been declining just shows that people do not find this game more appealing than past iterations. I think this is a good example of why your reasoning is flawed :D Yeah cause people are forced to go watch his movies again and again knowing how dumb they are And ofc you know how the non vocal people feel because youre omnipotent. I disagree so much with what you're saying that i'm gonna stop arguing. At the end of the day lotv is far from a perfect game but if it goes back to hots/wol i'll quit it again without any remorse. People that think lotv is the problem are quick to forget how the viewership started dropping way before it came out. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
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Ensiferum8
Canada103 Posts
On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I was top master, played seriously for 4 years and stop because of LotV. All the new units they added were garbage and frustrating to play against (warp prism being the worst with adepts and dts) but also reapers (ruined tvt fun ) ultra, libs, pylon PO etc... Even though i prefered WoL, HOTS was still great to play, and because its was great to play, it was good to watch. So please you can stop saying bullshit | ||
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Espartaquen
88 Posts
On April 10 2017 05:54 Ensiferum8 wrote: I was top master, played seriously for 4 years and stop because of LotV. All the new units they added were garbage and frustrating to play against (warp prism being the worst with adepts and dts) but also reapers (ruined tvt fun ) ultra, libs, pylon PO etc... Even though i prefered WoL, HOTS was still great to play, and because its was great to play, it was good to watch. So please you can stop saying bullshit Same here, many years playing, top master, and the 10th of November of 2015 was the end of an era for me. | ||
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Ensiferum8
Canada103 Posts
On April 10 2017 02:51 ArtyK wrote: Using this poll as an argument is really awfull my friend. Like other people mentionned, this poll is favored for yes because most people who would have voted no left already.This is a good example of why your reasonning is flawed. "Legacy is the least fun to watch for most people" You must not have followed the game much since it came out then...pretty ironic statement considering the poll in this thread too (granted it's a small percentage of the community) Meanwhile tastosis have repeatedly said this was the best sc2 there ever was, and most pros agreed the core changes were for the best after release. A common trend i see in people thinking this is the worst version to watch is either deathball lovers or people completly ignorant of the scene for the past year and half. Another really bad argument is using tastosis and pros. These people depends on the sc2 money to live well and pay the rent. Do you really think artosis would say "well, lotv kinda killed sc2 and is way worse than the other sc2 expansions, but whatever guys, lets watch the game! ". Casters and pros will always defend their game to keep some viewers there and not lose their job. The problem is not the game being fun to watch or not, the problem is that the game is defenitly less fun to play (which explains the awfull viewership) and for a lot of people (including me) if its not fun to play, its not really worth it to watch. The only reason im still coming here is because i grew to really like some players (TY, taeja, Maru, bomber etc...) and i want to see how they are doing (at least, the one who didnt retired)... And also, because im fucking HYPED for Broodwar | ||
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StraKo
Germany96 Posts
On April 10 2017 05:54 Ensiferum8 wrote: I was top master, played seriously for 4 years and stop because of LotV. All the new units they added were garbage and frustrating to play against (warp prism being the worst with adepts and dts) but also reapers (ruined tvt fun ) ultra, libs, pylon PO etc... Even though i prefered WoL, HOTS was still great to play, and because its was great to play, it was good to watch. So please you can stop saying bullshit i really feel the same and it's sad that i have to say this. I used to love Star Craft and i put so much passion, effort and time into it. I consider it to be one of my hobbies, but lotv just feels like someone stole my toys :/ I wish it would get back to the roots, back to basic. Easy to learn, difficult to master. Make the game fun to play, esport will follow. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28630 Posts
I like watching it for the same reason though, there's a lot more going on in most games I watch. I've always enjoyed watching zvt and tvt, in every incarnation of sc2, but a lot of protoss matchups were all make deathball circle each others units don't fight oh and then a huge battle and game over. When I watch protosses nowadays it's constant adapt shuttle harass etc. And I understand that a) that might get annoying to play against when you don't play perfectly, and it might be annoying to try to play protoss and use those harass units when you're not able to pull it off perfectly. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On April 10 2017 06:25 Liquid`Drone wrote: I can really understand that LotV is significantly less fun to play. Some new units must be super frustrating to play against, it looks really stressful and unforgiving compared to earlier versions of sc2. I like watching it for the same reason though, there's a lot more going on in most games I watch. I've always enjoyed watching zvt and tvt, in every incarnation of sc2, but a lot of protoss matchups were all make deathball circle each others units don't fight oh and then a huge battle and game over. When I watch protosses nowadays it's constant adapt shuttle harass etc. And I understand that a) that might get annoying to play against when you don't play perfectly, and it might be annoying to try to play protoss and use those harass units when you're not able to pull it off perfectly. I think if we keep LotV and remove the following, the game will be more fun to play: - widow mines - oracle - speed mutas (don't remove mutalisks) - boost for medivacs - forcefields - dt blink - liberators - cyclones' super dps Obviously, other units will have to be balanced, but these are the things I don't find fun. LotV needs to improve fun, then balance. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On April 10 2017 06:47 Shield wrote: I think if we keep LotV and remove the following, the game will be more fun to play: - widow mines - oracle - speed mutas (don't remove mutalisks) - forcefields - dt blink - liberators - cyclones' super dps Obviously, other units will have to be balanced, but these are the things I don't find fun. Are widow mines the problem, or widow mine drops? If it's drops, I think a nerf to the speed of which a terran can get medivacs would be more seemly. In fact, I think if it took terran longer to get medivacs, it would fix a number of annoying things with TvX matchups. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On April 10 2017 06:47 Shield wrote: I think if we keep LotV and remove the following, the game will be more fun to play: - widow mines - oracle - speed mutas (don't remove mutalisks) - boost for medivacs - forcefields - dt blink - liberators - cyclones' super dps Obviously, other units will have to be balanced, but these are the things I don't find fun. LotV needs to improve fun, then balance. The fact that you think dt blink is a problem is hilarious, have you ever actually played a game of legacy? | ||
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