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On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible.
Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post.
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France13003 Posts
On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post.
RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games.
It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is.
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On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is.
Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular.
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On April 16 2017 07:39 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is. Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular.
Making Starcraft super popular would probably include making it a team game and removing more or less every mechanic required to play it so it wouldn't be Starcraft anymore.
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United States1940 Posts
On April 16 2017 07:42 Valikyr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:39 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is. Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular. Making Starcraft super popular would probably include making it a team game and removing more or less every mechanic required to play it so it wouldn't be Starcraft anymore.
Starcraft doesn't have to be popular to be good.
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Norway28866 Posts
I honestly think a lot of the moba scene would enjoy playing 3v3 bgh, or even fastest map, in brood war, at least against other inexperienced players. But with how the professional scene has always revolved around 1v1, people who haven't played the game haven't been exposed to that game mode and don't have any awareness of it even existing.
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On April 16 2017 07:39 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is. Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular.
When was that? Back when Moba's were custom maps on rts games? If memory serves, Once the rts shell was jettisoned, moba's popularity skyrocketed. so that doesn't really help your argument.
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On April 16 2017 07:55 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:39 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is. Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular. When was that? Back when Moba's were custom maps on rts games? If memory serves, Once the rts shell was jettisoned, moba's popularity skyrocketed. so that doesn't really help your argument.
wasn't wc3 dota already more popular than wc3 itself back in 08/09
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I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting.
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On April 16 2017 08:21 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:55 MstrJinbo wrote:On April 16 2017 07:39 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is. Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular. When was that? Back when Moba's were custom maps on rts games? If memory serves, Once the rts shell was jettisoned, moba's popularity skyrocketed. so that doesn't really help your argument. wasn't wc3 dota already more popular than wc3 itself back in 08/09
Pretty much my experience with it (maybe even sooner than 08/09), to most people I knew: the Hero units were the most fun part about Wc3-- so once people got on board with the idea of taking away army/macro elements it was really just about finding a gamemode that made Hero units the most fun to play. This history is reflected in other custom maps like Anime Battle, Hero Siege, etc.
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On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting.
WoL felt like two ends of a spectrum with no middle ground, so I would disagree. Early WoL was every reaper/bunker variant under the sun, while late WoL was every variant of paths into BL/Infestor vs Protoss Deathball. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. Economy harass is both more punishing because of new units but also recoverable due to just a faster economy, so games have more comeback stories to them.
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On April 16 2017 07:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I honestly think a lot of the moba scene would enjoy playing 3v3 bgh, or even fastest map, in brood war, at least against other inexperienced players. But with how the professional scene has always revolved around 1v1, people who haven't played the game haven't been exposed to that game mode and don't have any awareness of it even existing.
I don't think so. While the 1v1 aspect of not being able to blame others is certainly a factor, another factor is that there is no hero to "identify" yourself with. This will be relevant especially for the younger audience. But an even bigger factor is that in all those game modes multitasking is supremely important. And multitasking is stressful. And the MOBA scene is actually quite tryhard.
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On April 16 2017 07:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I honestly think a lot of the moba scene would enjoy playing 3v3 bgh, or even fastest map, in brood war, at least against other inexperienced players. But with how the professional scene has always revolved around 1v1, people who haven't played the game haven't been exposed to that game mode and don't have any awareness of it even existing.
It's funny. There's always a BGH game open in custom games, and custom games are completely free.
You can download SC2 for free and jump into a BGH game on megaton pretty much immediately.
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On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues.
The irony there...
Killing off one basing reduces the variety of playstyles.
I found there to be plenty of middle ground in WOL. But relative LOTV (which is nearly all middle ground, there is no extremes that added variety to the game that I enjoyed) WOL certainly had more volatility.
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On April 16 2017 09:54 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. The irony there... Killing off one basing reduces the variety of playstyles. I found there to be plenty of middle ground in WOL. But relative LOTV (which is nearly all middle ground, there is no extremes that added variety to the game that I enjoyed) WOL certainly had more volatility.
It reduces the variety of playstyles in a game state where 1-base builds aren't completely oppressing other builds.
Some matchups didn't have this problem, but PvP in particular did when 4-gate all-ins were a do or die strat. TvP also had this during the 1-1-1 era (Early WoL reaper rushes are also an example, but I think everyone agrees that's an extreme case). I'd credit the blandness of LotV's middle ground to unit design, but the general flow of games across matchups feels more fleshed out which I think is nice.
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Is LotV more fun to watch than HotS?
NO. There is no need to make a pool to answer this. Watch the Twitch statistique. Even with the WCS compétition there is less than 20k people...
Don't forget than TL is for people who play the game everyday, you don't read/answer a TL thread if you stop to play this game.
This is the big David Kim mistake, accelerate the game with 12 harvesters, and think that people will watch without playing cause game will be awesome. It's not the case. The games are not better, and people stopped playing this game. Blizzard need to come back on 6 harvesters And many things will be settled by it itself.
A lot of people think, problem is not speed, it's unit like Liberator, but it's wrong, unit like Liberator are a problem cause they come too fast in the game. With 6, if you go Liberator, you pay the price, no B2. And a lot of argumente who goes for 12 harvesters, with a "But we just need to fix this" are solved with the 6 harvesters start.
Blizzard, make the good choice please.
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On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. WoL felt like two ends of a spectrum with no middle ground, so I would disagree. Early WoL was every reaper/bunker variant under the sun, while late WoL was every variant of paths into BL/Infestor vs Protoss Deathball. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. Economy harass is both more punishing because of new units but also recoverable due to just a faster economy, so games have more comeback stories to them.
But the 1st expansion is literally free in LOTV, artificially made by blizzard to give spectators a more base is good feeling.
At this rate, blizzard might as well start the game with 2 bases, because 2nd base is basically risk free to take.
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On April 16 2017 10:14 -Kuya wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 09:54 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. The irony there... Killing off one basing reduces the variety of playstyles. I found there to be plenty of middle ground in WOL. But relative LOTV (which is nearly all middle ground, there is no extremes that added variety to the game that I enjoyed) WOL certainly had more volatility. It reduces the variety of playstyles in a game state where 1-base builds aren't completely oppressing other builds. Some matchups didn't have this problem, but PvP in particular did when 4-gate all-ins were a do or die strat. TvP also had this during the 1-1-1 era (Early WoL reaper rushes are also an example, but I think everyone agrees that's an extreme case). I'd credit the blandness of LotV's middle ground to unit design, but the general flow of games across matchups feels more fleshed out which I think is nice.
Unless you are talking about early WOL, the 4 Gate wasn't a threat in PvP. When I was in tryhard mode in SC2, I watched every game PvP replay from the TSL4 Korean qualifiers to get ideas for builds. Many 4 gates were attempted (mostly by Chinese playerS) not a single one succeeded. It was a dead build at a high level, and certainly wasn't oppressive.
But anyway, you're overlooking my point. Yes, there were occasional builds/units that were too strong/weak just like Adepts and Liberators were too strong on launch for Protoss. But I wouldn't damn LOTV for Adepts and Liberators being too strong just like I wouldn't damn WOL for a few overpowered all-ins.
But if you had some skills in WOL and could earn an expansion, then the game was like the wild west and could end at any moment. There was massive variety because expansions weren't free.
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i miss wol, BL infestor and the same overpowered protoss immortal all in every single game, and terrans running around with marines putting way more effort into their wins than other races was so fun!!
i'm not influenced by nostalgia at all
/s
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On April 16 2017 11:12 fx9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. WoL felt like two ends of a spectrum with no middle ground, so I would disagree. Early WoL was every reaper/bunker variant under the sun, while late WoL was every variant of paths into BL/Infestor vs Protoss Deathball. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. Economy harass is both more punishing because of new units but also recoverable due to just a faster economy, so games have more comeback stories to them. But the 1st expansion is literally free in LOTV, artificially made by blizzard to give spectators a more base is good feeling. At this rate, blizzard might as well start the game with 2 bases, because 2nd base is basically risk free to take.
That free natural expansion is as much at the fault of the community as at the fault of Blizzard, if not more. Easy natural expansions and in-base expansions had been a thing on community maps before Blizzard began to embrace them more in response. People were tired of so many cheesy one-base games on crappy Blizzard maps that easier expansions were pushed by community maps.
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EPT
