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One of the main goals of Legacy of the Void was to make SC2 more fun to watch and lots of features,like the less amount of minerals per base, the increase of harass and micro, were introduced to support this design choice.
So, after 3 GSL, 2 SSL, one Blizzcon and countless other korean and foreign tournaments, I think that it's time to compare Legacy of the Void and Hearth of the Swarm in terms of entertainment.
Is LotV more fun to watch than HotS?
I've personally watched a ton of Starcraft 2 in the last days, between WCS qualifiers and GSL super Tournament, and my answer is a decise NO. I'm probably one of the few players to think that way, but I prefer to watch deathballs and fights between armies instead of few harass units killing mineral lines.
Curious to hear your opion about it.
Here is the pool
Poll: Is LotV more fun to watch than HotS?Yes (478) 58% No (350) 42% 828 total votes Your vote: Is LotV more fun to watch than HotS? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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RIP DED GAEM
User was warned for this post
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Before LotV everyone complained about nothing happening all game long with one big fight at the end which decided the winner. Now in LotV we have more smaller fights all the time and people still complain. Surely most of those attacks concentrate on killing economy but thats just what is most effective. You dont want to fight army if you dont have to. The question is whether the defender does his job properly or if the attacker has a too big advantage with some unit compositions.
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More fun to watch and play than hots.
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The start of HotS was more fun to watch than the start of LotV, imo. But with some time having passed LotV is infinitely more fun to watch than HotS after 1+ year.
That being said, I LotV still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, which i detailed a bit in the other thread about LotV mechanics.
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The important question should be:
Is it more fun to play than hots ?
I think both games have their up- and downsides, but LotV is doing some basic things very wrong at the moment and i'm convinced that it could be a much better game than it already is.
LotV is missing out a lot of potential, but maybe with a new multiplayer director, things will change !?
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On April 09 2017 23:25 Yrr wrote:
Before LotV everyone complained about nothing happening all game long with one big fight at the end which decided the winner. Now in LotV we have more smaller fights all the time and people still complain. Surely most of those attacks concentrate on killing economy but thats just what is most effective. You dont want to fight army if you dont have to. The question is whether the defender does his job properly or if the attacker has a too big advantage with some unit compositions.
Of course people still complain. Starcraft 2 has issues at its core that people have wanted addressed since 2009/2010.
LotV's skirmishes are great, but units like the Liberator and Adept just emphasize fundamental flaws in the game's design.
On a side note, it is the consumer's job to complain about the product so that the consumer can get the best version of that product.
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+ don't take a poll like this too seriously, unhappy people always do more noise.
Hots was just a wol ++ , cad slow with lack of skillcap.
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Big yes. The deathball style of old SC2 got old to me, real old. I think I prefer playing HotS though, at least in most matchups.
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On April 09 2017 23:37 DieuCure wrote:
+ don't take a poll like this too seriously, unhappy people always do more noise.
Hots was just a wol ++ , cad slow with lack of skillcap.
I don't think so,cause most part of unhappy people aren't playing the game anymore. Playerbase numbers are the first indicator of how the players are reacting to the product
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economy and game flow is better to watch in theory, but design elements have heavily incentivized taking quick advantages and then winning with a low tech followup timing, and also ladder maps have still not been successfully designed to take advantage of lotv economy. but that's also because of the harassment meta - when harassment is king 4th bases are either turtly or very very difficult to take. this is why pvt tvp sucks
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It's definitely more fun to play and I really enjoy watching it more than ever. All the new units make for much more frantic games with small skirmishes all over the place.
The dead game meme wouldn't bother me too much, but when I see that a GSL gets like 8000 views, with the best players duking it out and the best casters casting, I can kind of see their point.
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The original SC2 is better than both legacy and HotS combined, in my opinion.
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its more fun than games with swarm host
WoL was best until BLfestor was everywhere
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I think it is better than hots, but it doesnt mean it is in a good state
Wol was still better imo
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Depends on matchup and meta I think.
Overall, to watch, sure. The lack of 2 hour swarm host siege tank games helps
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I prefered WoL the most, might be nostalgia though.
I remember always being hyped for tournaments like MLG, GSL, IPL etc. Always staying up all night to watch the games.
These days I don't really care anymore, and I barely have any fun playing LoTV(mostly due how dumb ZvZ is these days though).
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10x more enjoyable for me.
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I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots
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On April 09 2017 23:59 Ace Frehley wrote:
I think it is better than hots, but it doesnt mean it is in a good state
Wol was still better imo
WoL when deathball was king and pro complained because this game was too easy ? When nobody was able to split properly ?
It was the best version to you because when you are a beginner you get 0 frustration, but if we back to WoL now ...
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On April 09 2017 23:25 Yrr wrote:
Before LotV everyone complained about nothing happening all game long with one big fight at the end which decided the winner. Now in LotV we have more smaller fights all the time and people still complain. Surely most of those attacks concentrate on killing economy but thats just what is most effective. You dont want to fight army if you dont have to. The question is whether the defender does his job properly or if the attacker has a too big advantage with some unit compositions.
I'm still watching deathballs, skytoss and masters zergs that win games with a single hotkey using F2 for the army, and many bullshit like pylon rush or 1 base Ravager.
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Honesty dont think most people who answer no remember how awful certain matchups were during some parts of hots. PvP was dumb as fuck, PvZ had alot of disgusting ways protoss could allin and pull off silly stuff, and lets not forget Swarmhosts. Adepts right now may seem like something thats gamebreaking but it really isnt anything compared to what used to be the standard. The only MU i think was better in Hots is TvZ (except for that time when terrans were forced to play mechvsSwarmhosts) and maybe ZvZ
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I personally miss broolord infestor time, I love crazy long game, even swarmhost area was better than what we have now.
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it might be more fun to watch, but its not as fun to play for me
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Canada8989 Posts
Lotv is a lot more fun for me to watch, there is a lot less deathball stuff, no more swarmhost, no more turtle sci-mech, and you can play at least two style at the top level in every matchup and for all the crap the adept is getting LOTV really made protoss more dynamic.
Only problem for me both watching and playing is that the new economy and creep made tvz less of a pull-and-push game with bio vs lingbling with I loved to play and watch.
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On April 10 2017 00:10 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2017 23:59 Ace Frehley wrote:
I think it is better than hots, but it doesnt mean it is in a good state
Wol was still better imo WoL when deathball was king and pro complained because this game was too easy ? When nobody was able to split properly ? It was the best version to you because when you are a beginner you get 0 frustration, but if we back to WoL now ...
Yeah widow mines and swarm hosts made the game so much more skill-based and exciting, and definitely less deathbally! ... Oh wait no it just made it all worse.
I can not say if LotV is better than WoL or not. I'd say it's about even in terms of fun to watch. But HotS was definitely the worst stage of the game and it killed the excitement for many players.
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to me, the matchups are better in LOTV except TvT. I used to like playing tvt in WOL/HOTS but now its so cancerous to me that I will either do a stupid all in or f10+n.
I dont know about zvz though. I will always find something else to watch when it comes on because I always found that matchup uninteresting.
LOTV isnt as bad as people claim it to be. It doesnt mean there is no need to enhance the economy/ fix protoss bullshit.
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Russian Federation104 Posts
actually I think for the game what really matters is "is it more fun to play" and my answer is defenitely yes, when I only started LotV I kinda hated it, for killing HotS because I really enjoyed HotS at the end fo the era, but now I prefer LotV.
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Depends on the match up.
TvP/TvT/TvZ were overall better in HotS imo (the mass drop meta was definitely the best TvP experience in the match up as a viewer). TvT and TvZ have been trash for almost all LotV, and if the former wasn't stellar in HotS, TvZ was almost always very good (SH/Mech was kinda bad but not way worse than the ultralisk era).
As far as the opinion of everyone goes, I think both player count and viewership figures are telling a story.
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LOTV = not more fun to watch, less fun to play imho.
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On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots
personally, i agree. my 40 apm part time player friends continue to play WoL 2v2s because LotV is too complicated.
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Oh God yes. LotV is more actionpacked, more multiprongfriendly, 2 out of 3 races can control the pace of the game (Terran and Protoss). Less turtling, less stale games, less gateway gambling etc.
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IMO LotV way more fun to watch and play than hots or wol ever were, by far.
I quit at the end of WoL, tried to comeback in hots but new units made it suck even more.
People are salty about not being able to sit on their ass for 15 minutes and play deathballs...game actually requires some multitask skills for other races than T below gm now.
Is harass too strong? Sure, could be toned down...but does it make it worse than hots? Not by a long shot.
And don't get me started on people thinking 10 minutes to mine out a base is too short...
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On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots
Played both Lotv and Hots semi-seriously, i enjoyed hots much much more than Lotv.
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On April 10 2017 00:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots personally, i agree. my 40 apm part time player friends continue to play WoL 2v2s because LotV is too complicated.
sure they do, cause being so slow is not a good thing in RTS, at this point a single oracle is a big deal
Played both Lotv and Hots semi-seriously, i enjoyed hots much much more than Lotv.
and the reason why is that?
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Well stats do not lie.
SC2 used to have 100k viewers in WOL
In LotV they number are down to 8k.
Personally I have stopped watching completly. I still play the game though but it was far better in WOL and in late HOTS (after Swarm Hosts got nerfed).
Air units are too strong.
Mech is still useless.
Resources run out too fast.
Killing workers is low risk high reward.
There are too many units with too many overlapping unit roles.
SwarmHosts now cost 75 gas and give you a I-win button if the opponent is going mech.
Adept is an awful idea that should never have left the alpha stage.
Basically this game used to be really good but currently it is just frustrating to play.
A lazy balance team that only looked at winrates is what killed this game.
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Well HotS had the mech and SH era so obviously LotV is better than that. But early HotS ws better to me than HotS (I dont like adepts at all, and skytoss)
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Is it more fun? Just look at playerbase and viewership, I think that answers the question quite simply. And, sure, there will be people that like LOTV more than HOTS or WOL, but taking into account how much this game has declined it should really tell something about how the general feeling towards Legacy is.
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On April 10 2017 00:53 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 00:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots personally, i agree. my 40 apm part time player friends continue to play WoL 2v2s because LotV is too complicated. sure they do, cause being so slow is not a good thing in RTS, at this point a single oracle is a big deal Show nested quote +
Played both Lotv and Hots semi-seriously, i enjoyed hots much much more than Lotv.
and the reason why is that?
Most of the things tbh, i liked old worker start/mineral thing more, i dislike most of the new units and changes to old units. I feel like the old pace of wol/hots was perfect for SC2 and think that lotv is bit too much of an adhdfest at times. Combine that with stuff like liberators or adepts, and a perfect mix of motivation losing is born.
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On April 10 2017 01:01 Espartaquen wrote:
Is it more fun? Just look at playerbase and viewership, I think that answers the question quite simply. And, sure, there will be people that like LOTV more than HOTS or WOL, but taking into account how much this game has declined it should really tell something about how the general feeling towards Legacy is.
Yeah it's fair to compare wol with the hype of 12 years of waiting for a new SC + the explosion of twitch and esport vs a 7 year old game that has to compete with more casual esports, and got ruined by hots, not lotv. ><
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HotS gameplay and builds felt like they had more identity. HotS Pros were more renowned for their personalized builds and style of play they utilized, while LotV focuses more on their execution. There was more room to make a style of play your own, and that made it more fun to me. I can't deny that LotV is more action packed though.
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It depends. I think early LotV was more fun than HotS. At the moment, I'm not so sure.
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On April 10 2017 01:02 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 00:53 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 10 2017 00:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots personally, i agree. my 40 apm part time player friends continue to play WoL 2v2s because LotV is too complicated. sure they do, cause being so slow is not a good thing in RTS, at this point a single oracle is a big deal
Played both Lotv and Hots semi-seriously, i enjoyed hots much much more than Lotv.
and the reason why is that? Most of the things tbh, i liked old worker start/mineral thing more, i dislike most of the new units and changes to old units. I feel like the old pace of wol/hots was perfect for SC2 and think that lotv is bit too much of an adhdfest at times. Combine that with stuff like liberators or adepts, and a perfect mix of motivation losing is born.
Okay, I get it. But it amazes me cause u are allowing shitbuilds like 6 pool and turtle mech/swarmhost 3 base happening due to different worker/minerals balance. 3 hours games? We had a few on pro level with rematches even, it was a wastement of time which follows it was bad.
Yes, most of LotV units are powerful, but overall it has more pluses in terms of balances and timewise. LotV benefits the fastest arguably.
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On April 10 2017 01:11 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 01:02 Luolis wrote:On April 10 2017 00:53 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 10 2017 00:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots personally, i agree. my 40 apm part time player friends continue to play WoL 2v2s because LotV is too complicated. sure they do, cause being so slow is not a good thing in RTS, at this point a single oracle is a big deal
Played both Lotv and Hots semi-seriously, i enjoyed hots much much more than Lotv.
and the reason why is that? Most of the things tbh, i liked old worker start/mineral thing more, i dislike most of the new units and changes to old units. I feel like the old pace of wol/hots was perfect for SC2 and think that lotv is bit too much of an adhdfest at times. Combine that with stuff like liberators or adepts, and a perfect mix of motivation losing is born. Okay, I get it. But it amazes me cause u are allowing shitbuilds like 6 pool and turtle mech/swarmhost 3 base happening due to different worker/minerals balance. 3 hours games? We had a few on pro level with rematches even, it was a wastement of time which follows it was bad. Yes, most of LotV units are powerful, but overall it has more pluses in terms of balances and timewise. LotV benefits the fastest arguably.
I think hots cheeses had an important part in the game. There was actually that "eulogy for the six pool"-article which summarized alot of my thoughts aswell. I never said HotS was perfect, but for me it was better than lotv. Turtle mech/swarmhost shit didn't happen THAT often. I also liked the games lasting more a bit often.
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Canada8989 Posts
On April 10 2017 00:55 MockHamill wrote:
Well stats do not lie.
SC2 used to have 100k viewers in WOL
In LotV they number are down to 8k.
Personally I have stopped watching completly. I still play the game though but it was far better in WOL and in late HOTS (after Swarm Hosts got nerfed).
It's a 8 years old game, how many game that came out before 2010 are still being watch right now on Twitch, there's like only LoL and Melee, and there was no one watching melee for 10 years so it's still a fresh esport games (the number have already start to go down quite a bit).
And anyway if popularity was a good indicator of the quality of something Michel Bay and Taylor Perry would be the greatest director of all time.
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I don't know, hard to say tbh. I dislike a lot of things in lotv, i disliked a lot of things in hots. I watched a ton of hots, i still watch quite a lot of lotv. Is it because of the gameplay or simply because i am used to the game and players? Hard to say sometimes, i think the average game is pretty mediocre in lotv. But it was also pretty mediocre in hots. Top games are fun in both versions of sc2.
So yeah i don't know (i voted "no" though because i don't think it is clearly better, probably about the same)
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On April 10 2017 01:40 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 00:55 MockHamill wrote:
Well stats do not lie.
SC2 used to have 100k viewers in WOL
In LotV they number are down to 8k.
Personally I have stopped watching completly. I still play the game though but it was far better in WOL and in late HOTS (after Swarm Hosts got nerfed).
It's a 8 years old game, how many game that came out before 2010 are still being watch right now on Twitch, there's like only LoL and Melee, and there was no one watching melee for 10 years so it's still a fresh esport games (the number have already start to go down quite a bit). And anyway if popularity was a good indicator of the quality of something Michel Bay and Taylor Perry would be the greatest director of all time.
CS is an old game like StarCraft. It's watched by more people.
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On April 10 2017 01:46 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 01:40 Nakajin wrote:On April 10 2017 00:55 MockHamill wrote:
Well stats do not lie.
SC2 used to have 100k viewers in WOL
In LotV they number are down to 8k.
Personally I have stopped watching completly. I still play the game though but it was far better in WOL and in late HOTS (after Swarm Hosts got nerfed).
It's a 8 years old game, how many game that came out before 2010 are still being watch right now on Twitch, there's like only LoL and Melee, and there was no one watching melee for 10 years so it's still a fresh esport games (the number have already start to go down quite a bit). And anyway if popularity was a good indicator of the quality of something Michel Bay and Taylor Perry would be the greatest director of all time. CS is an old game like StarCraft. It's watched by more people.
You should have seen the numbers before valve added skins and put millions into tournaments. That was the true meaning of dead.
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On April 10 2017 00:55 MockHamill wrote:
Well stats do not lie.
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A lazy balance team that only looked at winrates is what killed this game.
stats do not lie? Pacman made $7 Billion and MsPacman only made $1.5 Billion. Therefore Pacman must be a better game than MsPacman. re ductio ad absurdum.
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Lotv is like 1,5 years old? Far from 8 years. Each expansion as well blizzard is "very" open to changing big stuff around. So it could be like a new game.
Dont play the old card please, the game is lackluster as fuck.
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Less protoss deathball and less turtle mech. It's a better game, but the frustation and dumb strats that are hard to play against are the same.
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On April 10 2017 01:03 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 01:01 Espartaquen wrote:
Is it more fun? Just look at playerbase and viewership, I think that answers the question quite simply. And, sure, there will be people that like LOTV more than HOTS or WOL, but taking into account how much this game has declined it should really tell something about how the general feeling towards Legacy is. Yeah it's fair to compare wol with the hype of 12 years of waiting for a new SC + the explosion of twitch and esport vs a 7 year old game that has to compete with more casual esports, and got ruined by hots, not lotv. ><
While the hype factor for launch might be a valid argument just look at how many have consistently played each game over the years. Taking Starcraft as a whole, LOTV has been the least successful of all expansions even when it was sold as a standalone product (HOTS was not). And if the gameplay was THAT good and fun, people would have kept playing. Playerbase and strategical variety pale even when comparing them to the last 6 months of HOTS.
No, Legacy is the least fun expansion to watch for most people. Were it not the case all these pros and teams would not have disappeared. Esports are like any other business: supply and demand rule the market, and people have stopped craving starcraft for a reason. Out of almost all esports, ours has been the one that has not grown. Personal preferences aside, I think it´s quite obvious that the majority would prefer HOTS or WOL to LOTV.
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On April 10 2017 02:37 Espartaquen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 01:03 ArtyK wrote:On April 10 2017 01:01 Espartaquen wrote:
Is it more fun? Just look at playerbase and viewership, I think that answers the question quite simply. And, sure, there will be people that like LOTV more than HOTS or WOL, but taking into account how much this game has declined it should really tell something about how the general feeling towards Legacy is. Yeah it's fair to compare wol with the hype of 12 years of waiting for a new SC + the explosion of twitch and esport vs a 7 year old game that has to compete with more casual esports, and got ruined by hots, not lotv. >< While the hype factor for launch might be a valid argument just look at how many have consistently played each game over the years. Taking Starcraft as a whole, LOTV has been the least successful of all expansions even when it was sold as a standalone product (HOTS was not). And if the gameplay was THAT good and fun, people would have kept playing. Playerbase and strategical variety pale even when comparing them to the last 6 months of HOTS. No, Legacy is the least fun expansion to watch for most people. Were it not the case all these pros and teams would not have disappeared. Esports are like any other business: supply and demand rule the market, and people have stopped craving starcraft for a reason. Out of almost all esports, ours has been the one that has not grown. Personal preferences aside, I think it´s quite obvious that the majority would prefer HOTS or WOL to LOTV.
This is a good example of why your reasonning is flawed.
On April 10 2017 01:40 Nakajin wrote:
...
And anyway if popularity was a good indicator of the quality of something Michel Bay and Taylor Perry would be the greatest director of all time.
"Legacy is the least fun to watch for most people" You must not have followed the game much since it came out then...pretty ironic statement considering the poll in this thread too (granted it's a small percentage of the community)
Meanwhile tastosis have repeatedly said this was the best sc2 there ever was, and most pros agreed the core changes were for the best after release.
A common trend i see in people thinking this is the worst version to watch is either deathball lovers or people completly ignorant of the scene for the past year and half.
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mass banelings vs everything, mass marines vs everything, mass adepts vs everything. There are a lot of nonsense builds. My wet dream is that SC2 could become a Starbow kind of game. With the mechanics of SC2 but the fundamentals of SC1.
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LotV is way more fun to watch. In my opinion SC2 has never been better than today.
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I'd say that LotV is very enjoyable to watch but not as much as WoL or HotS. That may be nostalgia speaking but I never really enjoyed the fast paced approach that LotV took. With the stronger economy allins seem like less of a commitment in general and that makes the game too frustrating for me to play atm. I guess that's also something that carries over to my experience in watching streams right now.
I never liked adepts, cyclones or liberators (or most of the LotV units really) as much as i liked the compositions in HotS and in WoL. The game has become a little too versatile imo.
Sounds negative, i know. However, I really enjoyed playing and watching LotV while it lasted. Just not as much as WoL and HotS 
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LOTV is fun to watch every now and then, but it's really quite dull and stale. 3 free bases, harassment, some fighting over the 4rth, end.
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TvP is quite stupid atm but otherwise the game is in the best state it's ever been.
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Polls like this are biased towards the Yes side because this was posted on TL.net (a site for people who like Starcraft) and because most people who would've voted no have left the game forever.
That said, I say it is both less fun to play and less fun to watch. It is definitely less fun to watch because I don't enjoy playing it as much as in WoL.
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Surprised at this. HotS in its first year was amazing and blew LotV's first year out of the water. If you compare current LotV to HotS in 2015 then it's a bit closer and I might agree slightly with these poll results.
LotV's main downfall is it has done nothing to make the game any less unforgiving (might even be worse), it feels like an arms race for higher tech units where it's hard to digest each stage of the game, and perhaps worst of all is it feels like the strategic depth is at an all-time low.
WoL >> HotS >= LotV I'd say
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Surprised at this. HotS in its first year was amazing and blew LotV's first year out of the water. If you compare current LotV to HotS in 2015 then it's a bit closer and I might agree slightly with these poll results.
LotV's main downfall is it has done nothing to make the game any less unforgiving (might even be worse), it feels like an arms race for higher tech units where it's hard to digest each stage of the game, and perhaps worst of all is it feels like the strategic depth is at an all-time low.
WoL >> HotS >= LotV I'd say
Well in my opinion this poll is biased because people who are gonna vote are mainly people still active on TL/SC mean they are mostly satisfied by how is looks right now.
To me sc2 isn't more or less boring to watch, i just feel the games are ending too fast, and bo3 in qualifier even bo5 are too short.
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I always find it funny that people say that LotV is the best SC2 has ever been. The people that disagree with that statement have already left when they realized Blizzard had no idea what they were doing.
LotV is a nightmare to watch and to play. The early game is nonexistent, which gives player little time to think about what to do and removes a layer of strategical depth from the game (Blizzard appears to have forgotten what the S in RTS stands for.) The mid game is almost entirely focused around harass. Whichever player kills more workers will almost always win in this phase, so players focus all of their energy towards either harassing or defending harassment. This creates artificial action in the game: spectators want to see armies clashing, not one liberator killing 10 drones. Defending harassment is also the #1 least fun thing to do in the game, because you know that all of the damage done is basically for free. The late game hasn't changed at all compared to HotS, despite the new economy, and players just seek to max out and move their deathball to victory.
Overall, LotV was a compete failure in Blizzard's attempt to revive the game, and the release of SC:R shows that they have no intention of making SC2 any better because they can't make any more money off of anything other than microtransactions.
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I think there should be a distinction between the average game and the extreme (2hr game/ridiculous cheese). I like HotS more on average but the worst games of HotS are worse than those of LotV.
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On April 10 2017 04:15 Solar424 wrote:
I always find it funny that people say that LotV is the best SC2 has ever been. The people that disagree with that statement have already left when they realized Blizzard had no idea what they were doing.
LotV is a nightmare to watch and to play. The early game is nonexistent, which gives player little time to think about what to do and removes a layer of strategical depth from the game (Blizzard appears to have forgotten what the S in RTS stands for.) The mid game is almost entirely focused around harass. Whichever player kills more workers will almost always win in this phase, so players focus all of their energy towards either harassing or defending harassment. This creates artificial action in the game: spectators want to see armies clashing, not one liberator killing 10 drones. Defending harassment is also the #1 least fun thing to do in the game, because you know that all of the damage done is basically for free. The late game hasn't changed at all compared to HotS, despite the new economy, and players just seek to max out and move their deathball to victory.
Overall, LotV was a compete failure in Blizzard's attempt to revive the game, and the release of SC:R shows that they have no intention of making SC2 any better because they can't make any more money off of anything other than microtransactions.
Well clearly not everyone agrees with you
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Some matchups or some time periods were more fun to watch in hots. But lotv has a lot more skirmishes, cool micro such as moving drop. strategical diversity and more comebacks. Lotv has less build order wins, more soft counter and so on. It is over all the better game to play and to watch!
Also i don't know why people complain. They can still play wol and hots even bw.
Most people who complain about the flaws, don't understand the game enough to see that this is the best we can have with an unlimited unit selection, good pathing, superb unit ai, easy macro and easy spell casting. Some of the concepts introduced in sc2 to equalize the better interface are really smart and creative. The design team doesn't get enough credit for. Most of us wouldn't do a better job!
Does this mean the game can't be better? No, it can just as all games. But the changes needed are minor and have only a small impact on ladder.
I believe with the knowledge we gained over the years about rts, sc3 could be a master piece. But it won't happen because rts games are not popular at the moment.
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For SURE! Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think many of the people who voted no have experienced much of Protoss 2 base all-in every single damn game.
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Norway28630 Posts
I enjoy watching LoTV quite a lot whenever I do it, which admittedly is not very often.
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Look at leading/lagging race in LotV. Terran has been the leading race in all but 3 or 4 periods in the history of LotV. Toss has never been the leading race. You never play against Toss on ladder. It's a 2 race game now, so how great could it be? Terrans are thrilled, for sure.
Adepts are boring and annoying. Nydus is invincible for no reason, whatsoever. The liberator was allowed to annihilate everything for 99% of LotV. If anyone can enjoy watching this... you might die from excitement if you watch remastered. Sick people.
300/200 colossus is ineffective. 300/200 tempest is ineffective. Nothing is even remotely priced correctly. Hate this game.
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On April 10 2017 02:51 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 02:37 Espartaquen wrote:On April 10 2017 01:03 ArtyK wrote:On April 10 2017 01:01 Espartaquen wrote:
Is it more fun? Just look at playerbase and viewership, I think that answers the question quite simply. And, sure, there will be people that like LOTV more than HOTS or WOL, but taking into account how much this game has declined it should really tell something about how the general feeling towards Legacy is. Yeah it's fair to compare wol with the hype of 12 years of waiting for a new SC + the explosion of twitch and esport vs a 7 year old game that has to compete with more casual esports, and got ruined by hots, not lotv. >< While the hype factor for launch might be a valid argument just look at how many have consistently played each game over the years. Taking Starcraft as a whole, LOTV has been the least successful of all expansions even when it was sold as a standalone product (HOTS was not). And if the gameplay was THAT good and fun, people would have kept playing. Playerbase and strategical variety pale even when comparing them to the last 6 months of HOTS. No, Legacy is the least fun expansion to watch for most people. Were it not the case all these pros and teams would not have disappeared. Esports are like any other business: supply and demand rule the market, and people have stopped craving starcraft for a reason. Out of almost all esports, ours has been the one that has not grown. Personal preferences aside, I think it´s quite obvious that the majority would prefer HOTS or WOL to LOTV. This is a good example of why your reasonning is flawed. Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 01:40 Nakajin wrote:
...
And anyway if popularity was a good indicator of the quality of something Michel Bay and Taylor Perry would be the greatest director of all time. "Legacy is the least fun to watch for most people" You must not have followed the game much since it came out then...pretty ironic statement considering the poll in this thread too (granted it's a small percentage of the community) Meanwhile tastosis have repeatedly said this was the best sc2 there ever was, and most pros agreed the core changes were for the best after release. A common trend i see in people thinking this is the worst version to watch is either deathball lovers or people completly ignorant of the scene for the past year and half.
First, games and films don´t work the same way. You can force an audience to watch a crappy movie with loads of explosions every once in a while and it can be ok (people go to the cinema once or twice a year), but a game like starcraft is meant to be played thoroughly for many hours. If it is not fun, people will stop playing and watching the game.
Second, as much as I like Tastosis it must be understood that they make their living off of casting SC2, it is in their interest to say that this is the best Starcraft there is even if they know it is not (most likely what is happening). Men in their position, Tastosis, Apollo, Kaelaris etc must always keep a public positive attitude because if they criticise Blizzard they risk losing their job a.k.a that which is keeping them well fed. So please don´t hold the words of casters as the absolute truth.
Third, that some pros have been vocal and positive about the changes does not mean that most pros believe the changes have been for the best. Actions speak more than words. Last I checked, most of the european, american and korean teams have closed their Starcraft rosters because people are, for the most part, not interested with competitive starcraft anymore. There are fewer pro players and tournaments every year. Less IEMs, less GSLs, less Dreamhacks, less Red Bulls and the list goes on and on. Do you really think that if LOTV was better than HOTS or WOL this would be happening?
Sure, some can enjoy this expansion more than the others, but the fact that Starcraft´s relevance has been declining just shows that people do not find this game more appealing than past iterations.
A common trend i see in people thinking this is the worst version to watch is either deathball lovers or people completly ignorant of the scene for the past year and half.
I think this is a good example of why your reasoning is flawed :D
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On April 10 2017 05:22 Espartaquen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 02:51 ArtyK wrote:On April 10 2017 02:37 Espartaquen wrote:On April 10 2017 01:03 ArtyK wrote:On April 10 2017 01:01 Espartaquen wrote:
Is it more fun? Just look at playerbase and viewership, I think that answers the question quite simply. And, sure, there will be people that like LOTV more than HOTS or WOL, but taking into account how much this game has declined it should really tell something about how the general feeling towards Legacy is. Yeah it's fair to compare wol with the hype of 12 years of waiting for a new SC + the explosion of twitch and esport vs a 7 year old game that has to compete with more casual esports, and got ruined by hots, not lotv. >< While the hype factor for launch might be a valid argument just look at how many have consistently played each game over the years. Taking Starcraft as a whole, LOTV has been the least successful of all expansions even when it was sold as a standalone product (HOTS was not). And if the gameplay was THAT good and fun, people would have kept playing. Playerbase and strategical variety pale even when comparing them to the last 6 months of HOTS. No, Legacy is the least fun expansion to watch for most people. Were it not the case all these pros and teams would not have disappeared. Esports are like any other business: supply and demand rule the market, and people have stopped craving starcraft for a reason. Out of almost all esports, ours has been the one that has not grown. Personal preferences aside, I think it´s quite obvious that the majority would prefer HOTS or WOL to LOTV. This is a good example of why your reasonning is flawed. On April 10 2017 01:40 Nakajin wrote:
...
And anyway if popularity was a good indicator of the quality of something Michel Bay and Taylor Perry would be the greatest director of all time. "Legacy is the least fun to watch for most people" You must not have followed the game much since it came out then...pretty ironic statement considering the poll in this thread too (granted it's a small percentage of the community) Meanwhile tastosis have repeatedly said this was the best sc2 there ever was, and most pros agreed the core changes were for the best after release. A common trend i see in people thinking this is the worst version to watch is either deathball lovers or people completly ignorant of the scene for the past year and half. First, games and films don´t work the same way. You can force an audience to watch a crappy movie with loads of explosions every once in a while and it can be ok (people go to the cinema once or twice a year), but a game like starcraft is meant to be played thoroughly for many hours. If it is not fun, people will stop playing and watching the game. Second, as much as I like Tastosis it must be understood that they make their living off of casting SC2, it is in their interest to say that this is the best Starcraft there is even if they know it is not (most likely what is happening). Men in their position, Tastosis, Apollo, Kaelaris etc must always keep a public positive attitude because if they criticise Blizzard they risk losing their job a.k.a that which is keeping them well fed. So please don´t hold the words of casters as the absolute truth. Third, that some pros have been vocal and positive about the changes does not mean that most pros believe the changes have been for the best. Actions speak more than words. Last I checked, most of the european, american and korean teams have closed their Starcraft rosters because people are, for the most part, not interested with competitive starcraft anymore. There are fewer pro players and tournaments every year. Less IEMs, less GSLs, less Dreamhacks, less Red Bulls and the list goes on and on. Do you really think that if LOTV was better than HOTS or WOL this would be happening? Sure, some can enjoy this expansion more than the others, but the fact that Starcraft´s relevance has been declining just shows that people do not find this game more appealing than past iterations. Show nested quote +A common trend i see in people thinking this is the worst version to watch is either deathball lovers or people completly ignorant of the scene for the past year and half. I think this is a good example of why your reasoning is flawed :D
Yeah cause people are forced to go watch his movies again and again knowing how dumb they are
And ofc you know how the non vocal people feel because youre omnipotent.
I disagree so much with what you're saying that i'm gonna stop arguing.
At the end of the day lotv is far from a perfect game but if it goes back to hots/wol i'll quit it again without any remorse.
People that think lotv is the problem are quick to forget how the viewership started dropping way before it came out.
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Yes, without a doubt. Not even a contest. HoTs was just so garbage to watch and play.
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On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots
I was top master, played seriously for 4 years and stop because of LotV.
All the new units they added were garbage and frustrating to play against (warp prism being the worst with adepts and dts) but also reapers (ruined tvt fun ) ultra, libs, pylon PO etc...
Even though i prefered WoL, HOTS was still great to play, and because its was great to play, it was good to watch. So please you can stop saying bullshit
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On April 10 2017 05:54 Ensiferum8 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I was top master, played seriously for 4 years and stop because of LotV. All the new units they added were garbage and frustrating to play against (warp prism being the worst with adepts and dts) but also reapers (ruined tvt fun ) ultra, libs, pylon PO etc... Even though i prefered WoL, HOTS was still great to play, and because its was great to play, it was good to watch. So please you can stop saying bullshit
Same here, many years playing, top master, and the 10th of November of 2015 was the end of an era for me.
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On April 10 2017 02:51 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 02:37 Espartaquen wrote:On April 10 2017 01:03 ArtyK wrote:On April 10 2017 01:01 Espartaquen wrote:
Is it more fun? Just look at playerbase and viewership, I think that answers the question quite simply. And, sure, there will be people that like LOTV more than HOTS or WOL, but taking into account how much this game has declined it should really tell something about how the general feeling towards Legacy is. Yeah it's fair to compare wol with the hype of 12 years of waiting for a new SC + the explosion of twitch and esport vs a 7 year old game that has to compete with more casual esports, and got ruined by hots, not lotv. >< While the hype factor for launch might be a valid argument just look at how many have consistently played each game over the years. Taking Starcraft as a whole, LOTV has been the least successful of all expansions even when it was sold as a standalone product (HOTS was not). And if the gameplay was THAT good and fun, people would have kept playing. Playerbase and strategical variety pale even when comparing them to the last 6 months of HOTS. No, Legacy is the least fun expansion to watch for most people. Were it not the case all these pros and teams would not have disappeared. Esports are like any other business: supply and demand rule the market, and people have stopped craving starcraft for a reason. Out of almost all esports, ours has been the one that has not grown. Personal preferences aside, I think it´s quite obvious that the majority would prefer HOTS or WOL to LOTV. This is a good example of why your reasonning is flawed. Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 01:40 Nakajin wrote:
...
And anyway if popularity was a good indicator of the quality of something Michel Bay and Taylor Perry would be the greatest director of all time. "Legacy is the least fun to watch for most people" You must not have followed the game much since it came out then...pretty ironic statement considering the poll in this thread too (granted it's a small percentage of the community) Meanwhile tastosis have repeatedly said this was the best sc2 there ever was, and most pros agreed the core changes were for the best after release. A common trend i see in people thinking this is the worst version to watch is either deathball lovers or people completly ignorant of the scene for the past year and half. Using this poll as an argument is really awfull my friend. Like other people mentionned, this poll is favored for yes because most people who would have voted no left already.
Another really bad argument is using tastosis and pros. These people depends on the sc2 money to live well and pay the rent. Do you really think artosis would say "well, lotv kinda killed sc2 and is way worse than the other sc2 expansions, but whatever guys, lets watch the game! ". Casters and pros will always defend their game to keep some viewers there and not lose their job.
The problem is not the game being fun to watch or not, the problem is that the game is defenitly less fun to play (which explains the awfull viewership) and for a lot of people (including me) if its not fun to play, its not really worth it to watch.
The only reason im still coming here is because i grew to really like some players (TY, taeja, Maru, bomber etc...) and i want to see how they are doing (at least, the one who didnt retired)...
And also, because im fucking HYPED for Broodwar
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On April 10 2017 05:54 Ensiferum8 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I was top master, played seriously for 4 years and stop because of LotV. All the new units they added were garbage and frustrating to play against (warp prism being the worst with adepts and dts) but also reapers (ruined tvt fun ) ultra, libs, pylon PO etc... Even though i prefered WoL, HOTS was still great to play, and because its was great to play, it was good to watch. So please you can stop saying bullshit
i really feel the same and it's sad that i have to say this. I used to love Star Craft and i put so much passion, effort and time into it.
I consider it to be one of my hobbies, but lotv just feels like someone stole my toys :/
I wish it would get back to the roots, back to basic. Easy to learn, difficult to master.
Make the game fun to play, esport will follow.
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Norway28630 Posts
I can really understand that LotV is significantly less fun to play. Some new units must be super frustrating to play against, it looks really stressful and unforgiving compared to earlier versions of sc2.
I like watching it for the same reason though, there's a lot more going on in most games I watch. I've always enjoyed watching zvt and tvt, in every incarnation of sc2, but a lot of protoss matchups were all make deathball circle each others units don't fight oh and then a huge battle and game over. When I watch protosses nowadays it's constant adapt shuttle harass etc. And I understand that a) that might get annoying to play against when you don't play perfectly, and it might be annoying to try to play protoss and use those harass units when you're not able to pull it off perfectly.
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On April 10 2017 06:25 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I can really understand that LotV is significantly less fun to play. Some new units must be super frustrating to play against, it looks really stressful and unforgiving compared to earlier versions of sc2.
I like watching it for the same reason though, there's a lot more going on in most games I watch. I've always enjoyed watching zvt and tvt, in every incarnation of sc2, but a lot of protoss matchups were all make deathball circle each others units don't fight oh and then a huge battle and game over. When I watch protosses nowadays it's constant adapt shuttle harass etc. And I understand that a) that might get annoying to play against when you don't play perfectly, and it might be annoying to try to play protoss and use those harass units when you're not able to pull it off perfectly.
I think if we keep LotV and remove the following, the game will be more fun to play:
- widow mines
- oracle
- speed mutas (don't remove mutalisks)
- boost for medivacs
- forcefields
- dt blink
- liberators
- cyclones' super dps
Obviously, other units will have to be balanced, but these are the things I don't find fun. LotV needs to improve fun, then balance.
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On April 10 2017 06:47 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 06:25 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I can really understand that LotV is significantly less fun to play. Some new units must be super frustrating to play against, it looks really stressful and unforgiving compared to earlier versions of sc2.
I like watching it for the same reason though, there's a lot more going on in most games I watch. I've always enjoyed watching zvt and tvt, in every incarnation of sc2, but a lot of protoss matchups were all make deathball circle each others units don't fight oh and then a huge battle and game over. When I watch protosses nowadays it's constant adapt shuttle harass etc. And I understand that a) that might get annoying to play against when you don't play perfectly, and it might be annoying to try to play protoss and use those harass units when you're not able to pull it off perfectly. I think if we keep LotV and remove the following, the game will be more fun to play: - widow mines - oracle - speed mutas (don't remove mutalisks) - forcefields - dt blink - liberators - cyclones' super dps Obviously, other units will have to be balanced, but these are the things I don't find fun.
Are widow mines the problem, or widow mine drops?
If it's drops, I think a nerf to the speed of which a terran can get medivacs would be more seemly. In fact, I think if it took terran longer to get medivacs, it would fix a number of annoying things with TvX matchups.
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On April 10 2017 06:47 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 06:25 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I can really understand that LotV is significantly less fun to play. Some new units must be super frustrating to play against, it looks really stressful and unforgiving compared to earlier versions of sc2.
I like watching it for the same reason though, there's a lot more going on in most games I watch. I've always enjoyed watching zvt and tvt, in every incarnation of sc2, but a lot of protoss matchups were all make deathball circle each others units don't fight oh and then a huge battle and game over. When I watch protosses nowadays it's constant adapt shuttle harass etc. And I understand that a) that might get annoying to play against when you don't play perfectly, and it might be annoying to try to play protoss and use those harass units when you're not able to pull it off perfectly. I think if we keep LotV and remove the following, the game will be more fun to play: - widow mines - oracle - speed mutas (don't remove mutalisks) - boost for medivacs - forcefields - dt blink - liberators - cyclones' super dps Obviously, other units will have to be balanced, but these are the things I don't find fun. LotV needs to improve fun, then balance.
The fact that you think dt blink is a problem is hilarious, have you ever actually played a game of legacy?
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On April 10 2017 06:59 starkiller123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 06:47 Shield wrote:On April 10 2017 06:25 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I can really understand that LotV is significantly less fun to play. Some new units must be super frustrating to play against, it looks really stressful and unforgiving compared to earlier versions of sc2.
I like watching it for the same reason though, there's a lot more going on in most games I watch. I've always enjoyed watching zvt and tvt, in every incarnation of sc2, but a lot of protoss matchups were all make deathball circle each others units don't fight oh and then a huge battle and game over. When I watch protosses nowadays it's constant adapt shuttle harass etc. And I understand that a) that might get annoying to play against when you don't play perfectly, and it might be annoying to try to play protoss and use those harass units when you're not able to pull it off perfectly. I think if we keep LotV and remove the following, the game will be more fun to play: - widow mines - oracle - speed mutas (don't remove mutalisks) - boost for medivacs - forcefields - dt blink - liberators - cyclones' super dps Obviously, other units will have to be balanced, but these are the things I don't find fun. LotV needs to improve fun, then balance. The fact that you think dt blink is a problem is hilarious, have you ever actually played a game of legacy?
I have, but not with dt blink. It's a stupid concept though.
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if BW was still being patched everyone would be screaming for nerfs to queens and reavers etc etc.
LotV is radically different from HotS and of course some people aren't going to like it. I can't wrap my head around people saying it's worse to watch though...
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On April 10 2017 02:54 StarscreamG1 wrote:
mass banelings vs everything, mass marines vs everything, mass adepts vs everything. There are a lot of nonsense builds. My wet dream is that SC2 could become a Starbow kind of game. With the mechanics of SC2 but the fundamentals of SC1.
Of those only one is KINDA a thing. Adept Phoenix is a 2 unit comp that is only temporarily viable. That is absolutely not unprecedented in SC2 history and never has there been such a ridiculously exaggerated debate about it.
On April 10 2017 04:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Surprised at this. HotS in its first year was amazing and blew LotV's first year out of the water. If you compare current LotV to HotS in 2015 then it's a bit closer and I might agree slightly with these poll results.
LotV's main downfall is it has done nothing to make the game any less unforgiving (might even be worse), it feels like an arms race for higher tech units where it's hard to digest each stage of the game, and perhaps worst of all is it feels like the strategic depth is at an all-time low.
WoL >> HotS >= LotV I'd say
I am surprised you say something like that... IMO WoL is just worse in almost every regard and people are just having nostalgia. Did you forget what the last year of WoL looked like?
I do agree that HotS was better in some aspects, but definitely not overwhelmingly so. PvP is way better in LotV. PvZ was absolute cancer because of 2 base all-ins and PvZ alone is the reason LotV is better for me. Additionally there is neither turtle mech nor swarmhosts. The only thing that was better in early HotS was 4M vs Lingblingmuta and apparently people didn't apprecciate the best thing that ever happened in the game.
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wol was so hype in the beggining in the first mlg with idra and koreans was just so amazing. Nothing after comes close and its not because of nostalgia its fact
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On April 10 2017 07:10 Meepman wrote:
if BW was still being patched everyone would be screaming for nerfs to queens and reavers etc etc.
LotV is radically different from HotS and of course some people aren't going to like it. I can't wrap my head around people saying it's worse to watch though...
As people often say, BW was balanced through maps. This led to there being a standard for maps which made the game playable. There are standard maps in SC2, like Overgrowth, but Blizzard seems to think people want wacky and crazy maps like Ulrena or Dasan Station, maps with 20+ bases like Honorgrounds, or maps from 5 years ago like Bel'Shir and Daybreak.
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I enjoyed watching WoL and HotS when they were out, but it's hard to go back and watch old games after watching LotV.
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United States1840 Posts
On April 10 2017 07:57 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 07:10 Meepman wrote:
if BW was still being patched everyone would be screaming for nerfs to queens and reavers etc etc.
LotV is radically different from HotS and of course some people aren't going to like it. I can't wrap my head around people saying it's worse to watch though... As people often say, BW was balanced through maps. This led to there being a standard for maps which made the game playable. There are standard maps in SC2, like Overgrowth, but Blizzard seems to think people want wacky and crazy maps like Ulrena or Dasan Station, maps with 20+ bases like Honorgrounds, or maps from 5 years ago like Bel'Shir and Daybreak.
I've said it so many times lately and I even named a section of the 6 pool feature "A Problem Even Overgrowth Can't Fix" in honor of it, but I would prefer if every game was played on overgrowth. It would lead to much more robust, diverse and dynamic gameplay.
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yes! i would so much more love to have a discussion about the map pool (while admitting that phoenix adept is fuckin bullshit man).
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Everytime I read people missing WoL times and 2011 I would bet they play/support Terran. Protoss was unplayable (and unwatchable) in all matchups and ZvZ was a bad joke. HoTS was better for P, and LoTV is so much better for Z also...
I cannot know for sure, of course. Opinions?
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On April 10 2017 08:18 Xamo wrote:
Everytime I read people missing WoL times and 2011 I would bet they play/support Terran. Protoss was unplayable (and unwatchable) in all matchups and ZvZ was a bad joke. HoTS was better for P, and LoTV is so much better for Z also...
I cannot know for sure, of course. Opinions?
Z in WoL was pretty fun for me(and I never played infestor/brood). I loved playing muta/ling/bane vs marine/tank, and really liked playing the ling/bane heavy ZvZ. ZvP was enjoyable as well, especially after Losira/Nestea made the 3 hatch opener popular.
I can pretty much say the same for HotS, I enjoyed playing vs all the races as zerg, maybe a little less so ZvZ.
I quit in LotV when TvZ 3 rax reaper was around it's height. Hate adepts and warp prisms. Liked ZvZ even less. Game became less fun for me to play personally, so it also became less fun for me to watch as I wasn't as invested in it.
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
Most LOTV games being harass-to-death got old very fast
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On April 10 2017 06:47 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 06:25 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I can really understand that LotV is significantly less fun to play. Some new units must be super frustrating to play against, it looks really stressful and unforgiving compared to earlier versions of sc2.
I like watching it for the same reason though, there's a lot more going on in most games I watch. I've always enjoyed watching zvt and tvt, in every incarnation of sc2, but a lot of protoss matchups were all make deathball circle each others units don't fight oh and then a huge battle and game over. When I watch protosses nowadays it's constant adapt shuttle harass etc. And I understand that a) that might get annoying to play against when you don't play perfectly, and it might be annoying to try to play protoss and use those harass units when you're not able to pull it off perfectly. I think if we keep LotV and remove the following, the game will be more fun to play: - widow mines - oracle - speed mutas (don't remove mutalisks) - boost for medivacs - forcefields - dt blink - liberators - cyclones' super dps Obviously, other units will have to be balanced, but these are the things I don't find fun. LotV needs to improve fun, then balance.
Honestly the worst part of LoTV is purely how volatile each game is. I like the direction they went, compared to the 2 hour games of HoTS, but they just went too far, there's much less strategy is LoTV (even in mirrors, fuck even PvP is less strategic than in HoTS imo)
-Widow mines and oracles can stay maybe. Could just be I'm used to them, altough they should probably be changed. Oracles for one having so many potential game deciding abilities.
-Boost for medivacs I don't mind.
-FFs I'm too used to to ask them to change.
-Liberators, I like the idea. It's great to have a higher tech for terran that is useful, albeit "too useful".
-DT blink is just dumb, "DTs are useless once people get the counter to them, so they need an extra ability"
-Cylones are random as hell. pointless to even have in the game
Now adepts. That is something that needs to go. I don't think anyone could convince me otherwise.
EDIT: It's worth noting that HoTS had some god awful times. TvP for one was horrible, neither blink/2-base allins, or 3 base deathball was fun. Get rid of a couple things and LoTV is waay better in this regard
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Austria24417 Posts
HotS was better.
People say there's more going on now, but there isn't. There's no "small skirmishes" at all, there's harassment constantly going on because the economy is everything. So you either harass or you defend harassment. In the end a single fight still usually decides the game - in some cases even more so now because comeback potential is much smaller now.
I didn't enjoy SHs, I didn't enjoy mech, I didn't enjoy blink all-ins - but at least the game felt natural, and HotS produced games that were leagues beyond anything ever played in LotV. Because the game allowed it, and LotV doesn't.
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On April 10 2017 07:17 Aunvilgodess wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 04:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Surprised at this. HotS in its first year was amazing and blew LotV's first year out of the water. If you compare current LotV to HotS in 2015 then it's a bit closer and I might agree slightly with these poll results.
LotV's main downfall is it has done nothing to make the game any less unforgiving (might even be worse), it feels like an arms race for higher tech units where it's hard to digest each stage of the game, and perhaps worst of all is it feels like the strategic depth is at an all-time low.
WoL >> HotS >= LotV I'd say I am surprised you say something like that... IMO WoL is just worse in almost every regard and people are just having nostalgia. Did you forget what the last year of WoL looked like? I do agree that HotS was better in some aspects, but definitely not overwhelmingly so. PvP is way better in LotV. PvZ was absolute cancer because of 2 base all-ins and PvZ alone is the reason LotV is better for me. Additionally there is neither turtle mech nor swarmhosts. The only thing that was better in early HotS was 4M vs Lingblingmuta and apparently people didn't apprecciate the best thing that ever happened in the game.
No nostalgia. Every now and then I check out some of the old games and still find them highly appealing compared to what's on display these days. WoL 2011-mid 2012 (around the queen patch) is just unbeatable in my eyes. Though it was largely carried by how good TvZ and TvT were.
I don't hate the speedivac, but as far as TvT goes I definitely feel that's the area in which it turned out to be a net negative and why I think WoL TvT was best TvT. It removed more comeback potential than it added and ruined some of the positional beauty that helped make that mu great.
As for pre-queen patch TvZ, I would say that's the peak of sc2 in general. It had the perfect tempo, where the action usually picked up as soon as the hellions hit the field. The LBM vs 4M of HotS was exhilarating to watch, but at the same time it felt like so many of the games were the same. Not just in composition, but also in how they played out. The intensity of HotS TvZ didn't quite allow for the same wiggle room that WoL TvZ did. Also, back then it was an actual struggle to get a 3rd base and we saw a variety of approaches to defending from the Zerg side before so much of the early defensive roles were consolidated into the queen.
I didn't forget the last year of WoL either. Yeah the BL/Infestor era wasn't exactly the greatest, but I've never felt it was quite as bad as people make it out to be either. PvZ was arguably the worst mu of any era during BL/Infestor from an entertainment perspective but TvZ could still be amazing (Gumiho vs Losira anyone?). ZvZ back then was equal or better than what LotV offers due to the infestor adding more comeback potential. TvT was still going strong. TvP remained middle of the road. PvP saw some slight improvement near the end of WoL, but was still crap along with PvZ.
all in all I can name many far better games from early WoL/HotS than I can from what we're currently seeing from early LotV. The games just feel shorter and more predictable than ever.
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Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much. And that's because as a zerg player I hate how terran and protoss both have insanely annoying harass options that don't set back their builds whatsoever and sometimes are impossible to take no damage from. The harass is waaay too strong for those races. But I love the way the games generally play out.
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The lack of unanimity speaks for itself on this subject.
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On April 10 2017 09:21 FarmI3oy wrote:
The lack of unanimity speaks for itself on this subject.
does it
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On April 10 2017 09:17 TentativePanda wrote:
Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much.
Or maybe people have different opinions? For me atleast WoL >>>>>>>>>> LotV. Maybe you think differently but don't just go saying "it was obviously not".
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LotV is much more constrained than HotS or even WoL (when BL/ Infestor didn't rule everything) ever were. I find it boring to tune into a stream and find that 99% of the play is exactly what I thought it would be with very few twists.
With so many game-ending options available so quickly, games don't last as long and they're almost all focused around harassment into one side all-in-ing.
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While I think LotV is a much better designed multiplayer game, for some reason I've had a lot of difficulty concentrating when watching games now. I used to be able to spend an entire day watching Starcraft, now I just sort of multitask with Starcraft in the background.
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On April 10 2017 07:17 Aunvilgodess wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 02:54 StarscreamG1 wrote:
mass banelings vs everything, mass marines vs everything, mass adepts vs everything. There are a lot of nonsense builds. My wet dream is that SC2 could become a Starbow kind of game. With the mechanics of SC2 but the fundamentals of SC1. Of those only one is KINDA a thing. Adept Phoenix is a 2 unit comp that is only temporarily viable. That is absolutely not unprecedented in SC2 history and never has there been such a ridiculously exaggerated debate about it. Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 04:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Surprised at this. HotS in its first year was amazing and blew LotV's first year out of the water. If you compare current LotV to HotS in 2015 then it's a bit closer and I might agree slightly with these poll results.
LotV's main downfall is it has done nothing to make the game any less unforgiving (might even be worse), it feels like an arms race for higher tech units where it's hard to digest each stage of the game, and perhaps worst of all is it feels like the strategic depth is at an all-time low.
WoL >> HotS >= LotV I'd say I am surprised you say something like that... IMO WoL is just worse in almost every regard and people are just having nostalgia. Did you forget what the last year of WoL looked like? I do agree that HotS was better in some aspects, but definitely not overwhelmingly so. PvP is way better in LotV. PvZ was absolute cancer because of 2 base all-ins and PvZ alone is the reason LotV is better for me. Additionally there is neither turtle mech nor swarmhosts. The only thing that was better in early HotS was 4M vs Lingblingmuta and apparently people didn't apprecciate the best thing that ever happened in the game.
WoL before the Queen buff was in a really good place for TvZ. Zergs couldn't just greed up to hive tech without making roaches to push out versus hellions. After the queen buff, mass queen into brood/infestor meta took over. G fucking G for TvZ.
TvT in WoL and HotS > TvT in LotV. The reason I stuck with Terran was because I found other mirror matchups horrendous to play. The beauty of Terran design shone through in the mirror matchup.
As a Terran, WoL will always be the best. And I started playing SC2 seriously AFTER the blue-flame hellion nerf, so it's not because of the power of cheese.
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On April 10 2017 09:17 TentativePanda wrote:
Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much. And that's because as a zerg player I hate how terran and protoss both have insanely annoying harass options that don't set back their builds whatsoever and sometimes are impossible to take no damage from. The harass is waaay too strong for those races. But I love the way the games generally play out.
As a Zerg in WoL it felt like we had way more options as openers and in the midgame, pretty much every tech path was useful, and other races actually had to put in effort to scout.
Not every game was just defending harrasment in the midgame, which is the most frustrating thing in LoTV.
Also ZvZ was a lot less dumb back in the day, with also every tech path being viable.
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I think this is something that is purely subjective.
But based on the only real objective measure, popularity, LOTV loses to HOTS which loses to WOL. In other words, how broad of a spectrum of people does the game appeal to? LOTV appeals to the smallest segment of the three titles.
That happens to coincide with my experience. WOL could be played in so many different ways strategically, thus it appealed to so many people, while LOTV is a watered down game where strategy takes a backseat to mechanics, which appeals to people who really enjoy watching/executing great mechanics. That idea was discussed at length in the Eulogy of the Six Pool article.
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On April 09 2017 23:38 raff100 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2017 23:37 DieuCure wrote:
+ don't take a poll like this too seriously, unhappy people always do more noise.
Hots was just a wol ++ , cad slow with lack of skillcap. I don't think so,cause most part of unhappy people aren't playing the game anymore. Playerbase numbers are the first indicator of how the players are reacting to the product
Not even close man. Look at your average LR thread, twitch chat, youtube comment section and you will find nothing but whine, at least in comparison to balance happiness. The closest thing we get to people agreeing the game is in a relatively good state is when you see tournament qualifier balance or PTR/patch note threads. Otherwise whine far out weighs anyone who pops in to say.. hey doesn't the game seem cool and balanced now.
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On April 10 2017 01:38 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 01:11 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 10 2017 01:02 Luolis wrote:On April 10 2017 00:53 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 10 2017 00:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots personally, i agree. my 40 apm part time player friends continue to play WoL 2v2s because LotV is too complicated. sure they do, cause being so slow is not a good thing in RTS, at this point a single oracle is a big deal
Played both Lotv and Hots semi-seriously, i enjoyed hots much much more than Lotv.
and the reason why is that? Most of the things tbh, i liked old worker start/mineral thing more, i dislike most of the new units and changes to old units. I feel like the old pace of wol/hots was perfect for SC2 and think that lotv is bit too much of an adhdfest at times. Combine that with stuff like liberators or adepts, and a perfect mix of motivation losing is born. Okay, I get it. But it amazes me cause u are allowing shitbuilds like 6 pool and turtle mech/swarmhost 3 base happening due to different worker/minerals balance. 3 hours games? We had a few on pro level with rematches even, it was a wastement of time which follows it was bad. Yes, most of LotV units are powerful, but overall it has more pluses in terms of balances and timewise. LotV benefits the fastest arguably. I think hots cheeses had an important part in the game. There was actually that "eulogy for the six pool"-article which summarized alot of my thoughts aswell. I never said HotS was perfect, but for me it was better than lotv. Turtle mech/swarmhost shit didn't happen THAT often. I also liked the games lasting more a bit often.
Are you out of your mind? Ppl were not addending tournaments and viewers were super low at the 2nd period of hots before lotv because this was the thing every single game which went from 3+ bases... unless koreans put some bio vs ling bane muta... or when protoss did not immortal all in or some version of 7 gate...
Also don't get tricked ppl these complaining ppl are the same one calling for change when LoTV was announced... it's the kind of ppl that will always find something wrong on anything because it's not change or style they personally like...
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On April 10 2017 15:47 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2017 23:38 raff100 wrote:On April 09 2017 23:37 DieuCure wrote:
+ don't take a poll like this too seriously, unhappy people always do more noise.
Hots was just a wol ++ , cad slow with lack of skillcap. I don't think so,cause most part of unhappy people aren't playing the game anymore. Playerbase numbers are the first indicator of how the players are reacting to the product Not even close man. Look at your average LR thread, twitch chat, youtube comment section and you will find nothing but whine, at least in comparison to balance happiness. The closest thing we get to people agreeing the game is in a relatively good state is when you see tournament qualifier balance or PTR/patch note threads. Otherwise whine far out weighs anyone who pops in to say.. hey doesn't the game seem cool and balanced now.
This was a case since 2013 when i joined the community it was exacly the same....
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On April 10 2017 14:38 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 09:17 TentativePanda wrote:
Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much. And that's because as a zerg player I hate how terran and protoss both have insanely annoying harass options that don't set back their builds whatsoever and sometimes are impossible to take no damage from. The harass is waaay too strong for those races. But I love the way the games generally play out. As a Zerg in WoL it felt like we had way more options as openers and in the midgame, pretty much every tech path was useful, and other races actually had to put in effort to scout. Not every game was just defending harrasment in the midgame, which is the most frustrating thing in LoTV. Also ZvZ was a lot less dumb back in the day, with also every tech path being viable.
What exacly you saw except mutas and roaches ?? because zvz was muta fest or roach fest in hots..
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I actually full stopped watching SC2 during HotS, because of the extremely long and boring deathball/mech/swarmhosts games.
I enjoy watching LotV when I do, so it's a clear yes for me.
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On April 10 2017 16:08 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 14:38 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On April 10 2017 09:17 TentativePanda wrote:
Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much. And that's because as a zerg player I hate how terran and protoss both have insanely annoying harass options that don't set back their builds whatsoever and sometimes are impossible to take no damage from. The harass is waaay too strong for those races. But I love the way the games generally play out. As a Zerg in WoL it felt like we had way more options as openers and in the midgame, pretty much every tech path was useful, and other races actually had to put in effort to scout. Not every game was just defending harrasment in the midgame, which is the most frustrating thing in LoTV. Also ZvZ was a lot less dumb back in the day, with also every tech path being viable. What exacly you saw except mutas and roaches ?? because zvz was muta fest or roach fest in hots..
WoL ZvZ had a lot of that as well, but the key distinguishing factor was the infestor (which also allowed for the occasional ling/infestor comp as well). While the infestor was breaking TvZ and PvZ, I would say it added a lot to ZvZ. Sure the IT spam engagements were hideous to look at but the infestor also added more comeback potential in a mu that desperately needed it.
You couldn't just waltz in as easily for the win if you had the lead in a game where both players have infestors out for fear of getting chain fungaled to death. Additionally, you had burrowed infestor hit squads that could easily wipe out a mining base or snipe other infestors to try to come back in the game.
Prime example is what Leenock once did to DRG in one of the sickest plays I've ever seen:
+ Show Spoiler +
Also WoL ZvZ had a lot more drawn out ling/bane fights to open the game which was very exciting to watch.
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On April 10 2017 16:08 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 14:38 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On April 10 2017 09:17 TentativePanda wrote:
Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much. And that's because as a zerg player I hate how terran and protoss both have insanely annoying harass options that don't set back their builds whatsoever and sometimes are impossible to take no damage from. The harass is waaay too strong for those races. But I love the way the games generally play out. As a Zerg in WoL it felt like we had way more options as openers and in the midgame, pretty much every tech path was useful, and other races actually had to put in effort to scout. Not every game was just defending harrasment in the midgame, which is the most frustrating thing in LoTV. Also ZvZ was a lot less dumb back in the day, with also every tech path being viable. What exacly you saw except mutas and roaches ?? because zvz was muta fest or roach fest in hots..
Was talking about WoL, but anyhow ZvZ in LoTV in the midgame is largely the same as HoTS but the early game is a lot more coinflippy.
In WoL ling styles were actually pretty viable, and you saw more diverse comps in the midgame and a lot less stale lategame without the lurker and viper.
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Of course it's better to watch and play.
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LotV>WoL>HotS. HotS introduced insane worker harassment which suddenly can just end games. The only difference is that in HotS the death timer was a lot longer than the current one. In LotV it's a much better fast paced, back and forth game. With the strong possibility of come backs, due to high risk, high reward utilities added. An obvious example of this is the Disruptor. I think if there was added a little extra defenders advantage, or if they tuned down the harassment abilities from units such as Oracles, LotV would far outshine WoL as there wouldn't be any negative aspect when comparing LotV to WoL.
Imagine if every race had the Mothership Core and had MULE's to some extend, we would be able to see a lot more epic come backs, even though there are insane worker harassment units.
So in short:
1) Games end too abruptly
2) I'm just not satisfied with the length of broadcasts atm. This can either be solved by in-game solutions, like removing abrupt endings, or by simply making more bo3's into bo5's, make some bo5's into bo7 and possibly having some bo9 finals.
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Game is way better, but way higher skill cap now.
My 220 APM is not nearly as much as it used to be as a Terran player and especially in TvZ.
Now my lack of micro skills really decides many more games.
The game is good, but suites players with slightly different skill sets.
That's something I'm okay with.
As for the the Terran Match-ups.
TvT isn't all that much different mid and late game, but the transition to mid game is super hard to get a handle on for me. New units, new openings. Nothing special otherwise.
TvP is the same as always. Just less variability in openings. Everything is light harass until 3rd base is taken. In my opinion the balance of the match-up relies too heavily on the liberator, but I like it the way it is to.
TvZ is different. Not necessarily because of balance, but because every zerg is able to make so many more units than in the past (they are better at macro) Late game is frustrating, using ghost is very frustrating. Dealing with new corrupter ultra broodlord viper takes alot more to deal with than the old brood lord infestor. Parasitic bomb ruins so many of my games.
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I found WoL best. HotS made a mess of the game by introducing new units that were not good. LotV basically just went to fix the mess HotS made while still being inferior to WoL.
WoL just needed a nerf to BL and a buff to Hydra to compensate, it didn't need 10 more new units each with new active abilities.
A fix to way economy works in Sc2 could have also be done (by making workers become less effective sooner so to force more bases) instead of the shit way they did it in LotV.
Ah well, maybe BW Remaster manages to become popular with wider crowd and we can forget about shitty sc2.
User was warned for this post
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On April 10 2017 09:17 TentativePanda wrote:
Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much. And that's because as a zerg player I hate how terran and protoss both have insanely annoying harass options that don't set back their builds whatsoever and sometimes are impossible to take no damage from. The harass is waaay too strong for those races. But I love the way the games generally play out.
I still think WoL >= LotV > HotS. WoL just didn't have crazy speed mutas, speed medivacs, widow mine drops, oracle (insane dps vs workers), dt blink (stupid concept even though it's not a problem) and swarm hosts. For this reason, WoL is much better than HotS. Unfortunately, WoL had broodlords/infestors but that's still okay compared to described issues.
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LotV meta but only with WoL units would be the best sc2 game.
The reasons are obvious. Everyone has told the reasons, 99% are about the units. We don't need HotS and LotV units.
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I liked watching and playing WoL better. Hots I could take a little, Lotv completely killed the game for me
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On April 10 2017 14:43 BronzeKnee wrote:
I think this is something that is purely subjective.
But based on the only real objective measure, popularity, LOTV loses to HOTS which loses to WOL. In other words, how broad of a spectrum of people does the game appeal to? LOTV appeals to the smallest segment of the three titles.
That happens to coincide with my experience. WOL could be played in so many different ways strategically, thus it appealed to so many people, while LOTV is a watered down game where strategy takes a backseat to mechanics, which appeals to people who really enjoy watching/executing great mechanics. That idea was discussed at length in the Eulogy of the Six Pool article.
I disagree. In reality, it is the opposite of what you are saying. Mechanics, since the release of SC2 and transition from Brood War, has taken the backseat to strategy. Brood War's mechanics were much simpler than SC2's, but there were more things to do in Brood War. The prioritization of which mechanical tasks to perform is what made the strategy so interesting in Brood War. SC2 in comparison has such a high priority on strategy (unit composition, worker harass, spells/abilities etc.) that simple mechanics hardly exist. People sometimes say that SC2 is better for all these mechanical qualities of life, but the viewership/interest decline that has occurred since before the HOTS release says otherwise.
This is why so many Warcraft 3 pros made the transition to SC2 easier than Brood War pros. Warcraft 3 and SC2 are similar in the type of gameplay they emphasize. That is, heavy micro (which is part of mechanics, but more so strategy because it involves planning out unit positioning), unit composition in fights, set it and forget economies, worker harass and almost every unit have a spell or ability.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
I love those posts saying that LotV is obviously better and those who cannot see it are just too stupid to understand.
Yup, LotV is not for noobs, I agree. That's why the game population is so huge and the stream numbers are so big.
I selected no. IMO LotV is better to watch than HotS, but I want to play the game, not watch it. And if I am not playing, I'm not watching.
I am a person who loves Starcraft and is not watching it. Is this a loss for the scene? I don't know, maybe for people like me Blizzard receives 2 new players who are not noobs and do understand the game. Not my business, now I am watching and paying a subscription to another company. A loss for Blizzard is a gain for another.
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The game really lost quality with the queen patch back in WoL mid 2012. HotS was merely a continuation of that mindset, but I do find LotV better to watch (although not having played it seriously myself).
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I can't comprehend where is the fun when every single matchup is played with the same builds.
LotV and his 12 workers were the nail ni the coffin for sc2.
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HOTS was 1000% better to play and watch than LOTV. Virtually zero mech play in LOTV, and also too many of the same builds every single game, every match-up.
And of course there are exceptions to that. Swarmhosts in particular were terrible but other than those outliers HOTS was a superior game.
Too many coin flips as well in LOTV.
Bring back 1500 patches + 6 worker start.
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why is this even a close poll? can someone sum this up for me cause all i recal from HOTS era is 2 hour long swarmhost vs swarmhost games.... HOW is that fun to watch.... anyways its my opinion that LOTV is a thousand times better and more entertaining.
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On April 10 2017 23:12 Digitalz1 wrote:
why is this even a close poll? can someone sum this up for me cause all i recal from HOTS era is 2 hour long swarmhost vs swarmhost games.... HOW is that fun to watch.... anyways its my opinion that LOTV is a thousand times better and more entertaining.
I agree that Ravens and SH made the game very stale, but after the SH nerf the game became way better.There were some issues like Ravens AT and very strong Colossus,but imho was more enjoyable than HotS
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On April 10 2017 09:09 Olli wrote:
HotS was better.
People say there's more going on now, but there isn't. There's no "small skirmishes" at all, there's harassment constantly going on because the economy is everything. So you either harass or you defend harassment. In the end a single fight still usually decides the game - in some cases even more so now because comeback potential is much smaller now.
I didn't enjoy SHs, I didn't enjoy mech, I didn't enjoy blink all-ins - but at least the game felt natural, and HotS produced games that were leagues beyond anything ever played in LotV. Because the game allowed it, and LotV doesn't.
I mean there still are good games in LOTV tbh. But sure i agree with you, this "there is so much going on" is ridiculous to me as well. Even in WOL we had games with drops at multiple places at once, etc. Cmon guy -.-
Overall i think there are less really good games in lotv most likely, most games i watch i just think "meh". I really dislike all the new lotv units though and even the lurker doesn't really work all that well in lotv :/
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Is it fair to say that the poll would be slightly imba in favour of LOTV as it may miss out votes from HOTS fans who no longer watch LOTV and frequent TL?
Sorry, please don't ban me for poll balance whine!
User was temp banned for this post.
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While I can understand the debate which is more fun to watch between HOTS and LOTV, I don't get why people even bring WOL in the discussion if only out of pure nostalgia. WOL was pretty much a shitshow most of its time (early on GomTvT time until Queen range, lmao PvT with Khaydarin Amulet and then 1-1-1 all-in, PvP 4Gates all day long, Immo/Sentry Soul Train, and BL Infestors for half a year). It was new and hype on the moment but let's face it at its core, WOL really is barebone, dull and broken.
I don't understand either how anyone can say out of their ass that the poll would be skewed toward LOTV because people who enjoy the game stayed and will vote while people who hate the game already left and won't even bother. Yeah all the "ded game/DK hate" posts on TL are written by ghosts. Sure.
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France12771 Posts
I can't comment that much for HotS since almost all I saw was SH 1hour vs sky toss or mirrors, or mass raven at the end of HotS...
But I enjoyed WoL much better especially before the queen buff / bl infestor era!
LotV games seem indeed almost only economy oriented since you always have to expand and the fewer minerals mean workers loss are very deadly.
Add to that a lot of very fast harass annoying units and it's horrible.
I think you need to chose between such harass units and fewer minerals per base, not both because right now wins and losses feel cheap.
You reacted a bit too slow to raven or oracle harass? Gg game over.
I see what Olli is saying about the only strategical choices being "kill eco or die trying" because when I was watching aLive stream, trying to see what to focus when dropping in TvP, almost always it had to be the economy rather than tech or army :/.
However the game has potential if you tweak it the right way, because so many diverse units can add variety.
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Why are there so many people in this thread mistaking two different things?
1500 mineral economy had nothing to do with the terrible swarmhost/raven/collosus ball lazer gameplay of HOTS.
Those things were problems in and of themselves - balance/design problems of those units specifically.
1500 mineral economy has been used since Brood War and is proven that having that much resources per base leads to healthy gameplay where you can play either defensively (turtle) or offensively (attack/harass).
Removing the minerals per base in LOTV has led to purely offensive (attack/harrass) oriented gameplay with defensive play being punished for no reason at all.
DO NOT CONFUSE THE TWO THINGS GUYS. 1500 MINERAL PATCHES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SWARMHOST/TURTLE gameplay. 1500 minerals was never a problem in the first place.
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i disagree about the mech vs sh games thing. The single argument about lotv being better than hots to watch is based on the swarmhost vs any defensive style. Hots games were not all about sh, there was a LOT of extremly fun and dynamic game and a few extremly long game with SH.
Now watching 6 min game that are EXTREMLY similar to each other ( feels like i'm watching almost the same games all the time beside the mirrors ) with only action everywhere and early in the game is no better. The macro part and the development of the economy leading to the late game is part of the RTS style.
I really feel the games are boring to watch and too stacked on redundant actions on lotv, added to this the format of the tournament are terrible, bo3 and bo5 are done so quickly it ruin the hype in my opinion.
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I played/watched all 3 games, though admittedly less of LOTV. I think Wings of Liberty for many people is the most fun to watch because the game was new, popular, and it was REALLY fun to see the pros figure out the game at such a rapid pace, and to see so many evolutions of play. The Queen change and BL investor era kind of destroyed that. Thank god for Polt/Stephano rivalry though. (And the occasionally MC Comeback). Hots was fantastic up until the Protoss buffs around when SoS won blizzcon. The following 2 years +WCS changes just helped decline an already less popular game. I think LOTV suffered from not having enough interest to start with, but in terms of fun to watch its really fun overall. There is SO MUCH POTENTIAL for the pros to do really cool things, and we are still seeing new builds and strategies to this day. The map pools have been really strong.. I have been hooked to watching GSL this year. There are definitely problems- mostly with Zerg not having as much options as the other 2 races, Liberators being dull/Mech being Bad, and Adepts being just completely ridiculous and boring to watch. I still think in terms of action/gameplay/skill ceiling, Legacy of the Void is by far the best, it just will never compare to the fun it was to enjoy WOL in the golden era of starcraft as the big dog in Esports.
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I kind of miss the slow build up of HotS and WoL. Players feel eachother out with scouting or doing blind builds and rolling the dice. I was someone who actually didn't mind the ball-achingly long swarmhost-mech games because I appreciated the tactical and strategic nuances involved, the courting dances of the deathballs and seeing massive pitched battles on a split map.
At the same time, I can honestly say that the level of technical ability of many, if not all professional players with LotV has dramatically improved and some of the games I have watched were electric, balls to the wall in intensity and some games are absolutely gripping. And some are boring, like HotS. I think I'm agnostic.
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On April 10 2017 22:18 deacon.frost wrote:
I selected no. IMO LotV is better to watch than HotS, but I want to play the game, not watch it. And if I am not playing, I'm not watching.
Same for me.
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Im just a viewer, not a player. I certainly enjoyed HotS a lot more. They went with the harassment too far in LotV. Plus there are some broken units in the game still.
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I really enjoyed the end of HotS, swarm host was fixed (kinda) and I love how prevalent mech was. Watching sky terran battle was fun and there's a lot of strategic play at the end game. LotV is much more fast pace and I feel favor execution rather than strategic play
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For me, I definitely prefer playing LOTV over HOTS, and I'm not completely sure but I think I preferred watching HOTS slightly over LOTV, although I really enjoy both.
In HOTS I liked the tension of the more gradual starts and the anticipation of the game approaching the "big fight". Cheeses like 6 pools and 2 rax being so nervewracking as you waited to see whether the opponent would play safely enough or scout it in time, or the parting immortal build you knew was coming very early, and watching how the zerg made his time. I do miss watching HOTS a bit.
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On April 10 2017 16:06 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 01:38 Luolis wrote:On April 10 2017 01:11 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 10 2017 01:02 Luolis wrote:On April 10 2017 00:53 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 10 2017 00:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots personally, i agree. my 40 apm part time player friends continue to play WoL 2v2s because LotV is too complicated. sure they do, cause being so slow is not a good thing in RTS, at this point a single oracle is a big deal
Played both Lotv and Hots semi-seriously, i enjoyed hots much much more than Lotv.
and the reason why is that? Most of the things tbh, i liked old worker start/mineral thing more, i dislike most of the new units and changes to old units. I feel like the old pace of wol/hots was perfect for SC2 and think that lotv is bit too much of an adhdfest at times. Combine that with stuff like liberators or adepts, and a perfect mix of motivation losing is born. Okay, I get it. But it amazes me cause u are allowing shitbuilds like 6 pool and turtle mech/swarmhost 3 base happening due to different worker/minerals balance. 3 hours games? We had a few on pro level with rematches even, it was a wastement of time which follows it was bad. Yes, most of LotV units are powerful, but overall it has more pluses in terms of balances and timewise. LotV benefits the fastest arguably. I think hots cheeses had an important part in the game. There was actually that "eulogy for the six pool"-article which summarized alot of my thoughts aswell. I never said HotS was perfect, but for me it was better than lotv. Turtle mech/swarmhost shit didn't happen THAT often. I also liked the games lasting more a bit often. Are you out of your mind? Ppl were not addending tournaments and viewers were super low at the 2nd period of hots before lotv because this was the thing every single game which went from 3+ bases... unless koreans put some bio vs ling bane muta... or when protoss did not immortal all in or some version of 7 gate... Also don't get tricked ppl these complaining ppl are the same one calling for change when LoTV was announced... it's the kind of ppl that will always find something wrong on anything because it's not change or style they personally like...
Funny thing is that i actually thought wol/hots is what sc2 should be and was put off since lotv announce :D
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On April 10 2017 22:37 avilo wrote:
HOTS was 1000% better to play and watch than LOTV. Virtually zero mech play in LOTV, and also too many of the same builds every single game, every match-up.
And of course there are exceptions to that. Swarmhosts in particular were terrible but other than those outliers HOTS was a superior game.
Too many coin flips as well in LOTV.
Bring back 1500 patches + 6 worker start.
Your turtle mech is the most boring, unbearable style there is. Its probably even worse than the soultrain.
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SC2 community in a nutshell:
[End of hots]
Blizz pls fix SH, redesign economy, do not let tutrling to be the most broken thing in the game, who wants to watch 2h or 4h long games...
[After LOTV release]
Pls pls pls turning back, 3base only wtf you were even thing that we NEED to expand and move our units? Bring back turling and old hots!
Wtf....
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Also gonna leave this there maybe after watching this clip few of you maybe start using brain while laddering and not blindy following something called "meta"...
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SC2 community in a nutshell:
[End of hots]
Blizz pls fix SH, redesign economy, do not let tutrling to be the most broken thing in the game, who wants to watch 2h or 4h long games...
[After LOTV release]
Pls pls pls turning back, 3base only wtf you were even thing that we NEED to expand and move our units? Bring back turling and old hots!
Wtf....
You're mixing thing and idk, the community is hard to represent because I know a lot of people at the end of lotv who loved the 3 base play.
That being said when i say you're mixing thing it's because 3 base play and slow developpement with clear early, mid and late game doesn't mean turtling or SH.
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On April 11 2017 07:20 LDLCmiyako wrote:Show nested quote +SC2 community in a nutshell:
[End of hots]
Blizz pls fix SH, redesign economy, do not let tutrling to be the most broken thing in the game, who wants to watch 2h or 4h long games...
[After LOTV release]
Pls pls pls turning back, 3base only wtf you were even thing that we NEED to expand and move our units? Bring back turling and old hots!
Wtf.... You're mixing thing and idk, the community is hard to represent because I know a lot of people at the end of lotv who loved the 3 base play. That being said when i say you're mixing thing it's because 3 base play and slow developpement with clear early, mid and late game doesn't mean turtling or SH.
Yes it was so much fun facing 2base immortal or 7gate play or 3base collosus into tempest with templars... so much fan scouting 3 factories and later 5 starports massing ravens... so much fun fire up sc2 only knowing instead of 10 games you can play in lotv u would probably play like 2 or 3 because game would took 45 minutes of zerg trying to break thru wall of defense.. because hey, I'm on 3 bases im so rich i dont need to move out because i know ur late game sucks... )
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On April 11 2017 07:08 PharaphobiaSC wrote:
SC2 community in a nutshell:
[End of hots]
Blizz pls fix SH, redesign economy, do not let tutrling to be the most broken thing in the game, who wants to watch 2h or 4h long games...
[After LOTV release]
Pls pls pls turning back, 3base only wtf you were even thing that we NEED to expand and move our units? Bring back turling and old hots!
Wtf....
Blizzard obviously can't please everyone. Have you considered that some people didn't like LotV from the start? I for one only switched to LotV because HotS was left with such a small player pool. Ladder wasn't competitive enough for me. Otherwise I would still be playing HotS.
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On April 11 2017 07:40 Infiiiniity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2017 07:08 PharaphobiaSC wrote:
SC2 community in a nutshell:
[End of hots]
Blizz pls fix SH, redesign economy, do not let tutrling to be the most broken thing in the game, who wants to watch 2h or 4h long games...
[After LOTV release]
Pls pls pls turning back, 3base only wtf you were even thing that we NEED to expand and move our units? Bring back turling and old hots!
Wtf.... Blizzard obviously can't please everyone. Have you considered that some people didn't like LotV from the start? I for one only switched to LotV because HotS was left with such a small player pool. Ladder wasn't competitive enough for me. Otherwise I would still be playing HotS.
Than there should be no option to play it once new thing came out... its like you would play league of legends before map or UI revamp... or Dota before 7.0 (or the reborn)...
Also changes are good and needed.. more radical, the better... and im quite sure you are protoss or terran
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On April 11 2017 07:55 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2017 07:40 Infiiiniity wrote:On April 11 2017 07:08 PharaphobiaSC wrote:
SC2 community in a nutshell:
[End of hots]
Blizz pls fix SH, redesign economy, do not let tutrling to be the most broken thing in the game, who wants to watch 2h or 4h long games...
[After LOTV release]
Pls pls pls turning back, 3base only wtf you were even thing that we NEED to expand and move our units? Bring back turling and old hots!
Wtf.... Blizzard obviously can't please everyone. Have you considered that some people didn't like LotV from the start? I for one only switched to LotV because HotS was left with such a small player pool. Ladder wasn't competitive enough for me. Otherwise I would still be playing HotS. Than there should be no option to play it once new thing came out...
Hell no. Why keep the players that want to play the game from doing so? Makes no sense.
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On April 11 2017 08:15 Infiiiniity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2017 07:55 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On April 11 2017 07:40 Infiiiniity wrote:On April 11 2017 07:08 PharaphobiaSC wrote:
SC2 community in a nutshell:
[End of hots]
Blizz pls fix SH, redesign economy, do not let tutrling to be the most broken thing in the game, who wants to watch 2h or 4h long games...
[After LOTV release]
Pls pls pls turning back, 3base only wtf you were even thing that we NEED to expand and move our units? Bring back turling and old hots!
Wtf.... Blizzard obviously can't please everyone. Have you considered that some people didn't like LotV from the start? I for one only switched to LotV because HotS was left with such a small player pool. Ladder wasn't competitive enough for me. Otherwise I would still be playing HotS. Than there should be no option to play it once new thing came out... Hell no. Why keep the players that want to play the game from doing so? Makes no sense.
To prevent all these random suggestions... if you had only access to lotv half of these thread would never go even up
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Yes it was so much fun facing 2base immortal or 7gate play or 3base collosus into tempest with templars... so much fan scouting 3 factories and later 5 starports massing ravens... so much fun fire up sc2 only knowing instead of 10 games you can play in lotv u would probably play like 2 or 3 because game would took 45 minutes of zerg trying to break thru wall of defense.. because hey, I'm on 3 bases im so rich i dont need to move out because i know ur late game sucks... )
well i liked to watch the 7 gate robot play much better than the mass adept all the time. 3 base colossus was pretty fun to play against, 5 starport raven is pretty much what i face every tvt nowadays anyway...
I mean sure there was downside but there was a lot of good part aswell.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 11 2017 03:09 PPN wrote:
While I can understand the debate which is more fun to watch between HOTS and LOTV, I don't get why people even bring WOL in the discussion if only out of pure nostalgia. WOL was pretty much a shitshow most of its time (early on GomTvT time until Queen range, lmao PvT with Khaydarin Amulet and then 1-1-1 all-in, PvP 4Gates all day long, Immo/Sentry Soul Train, and BL Infestors for half a year). It was new and hype on the moment but let's face it at its core, WOL really is barebone, dull and broken.
I don't understand either how anyone can say out of their ass that the poll would be skewed toward LOTV because people who enjoy the game stayed and will vote while people who hate the game already left and won't even bother. Yeah all the "ded game/DK hate" posts on TL are written by ghosts. Sure.
I didn't play any lotv 1v1s yet (watched a bit lately and thinking about carving out some time for it..), but WoL had some good eras too...
TvZ was great for a while when it was marine tank vs muta baneling centered (nestea vs .... sC wasnt it? Was epic). TvT was good throughout all of WoL imo (fav era for me was mech v mech era but all tvt is great except pure mech vs pure bio).
Played a fair bit of hots and dont think it was bad. TvT still awesome, tvp better. TvZ a bit worse maybe but the mmmm v lbm was okay.
For lotv, Ive mostly seen pvz recently but that matchup looks waaaaay better than before, no?
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On April 11 2017 09:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
For lotv, Ive mostly seen pvz recently but that matchup looks waaaaay better than before, no?
In what way do you think?
ZvP got hit the hardest out of all the matchups in LotV when it came to losing build diversity. Zerg had many more options in HotS for how to play a game against Protoss, but now a lot of the games just look the same.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 11 2017 10:24 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2017 09:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
For lotv, Ive mostly seen pvz recently but that matchup looks waaaaay better than before, no? In what way do you think? ZvP got hit the hardest out of all the matchups in LotV when it came to losing build diversity. Zerg had many more options in HotS for how to play a game against Protoss, but now a lot of the games just look the same.
I thought the showtime vs serral games from a couple of days ago as well as nerchio vs dns looked healthy.
I thought pvz was a pretty degenerate matchup in wol/hots but to be fair i never played it so very much an outsider perspective.
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"Zerg had many more options in HotS ZvP"
xXDD
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From my limited experience and viewer perspective:
good game/HotS > good game/LotV > bad game/LotV > bad game /HotS
However the quota of good games vs bad games is clearly in favor of HotS. The truly unwatchable 90 minutes Raven vs SH shitshows were rare, while now it's almost always the same boring worker harass deciding the games without even one meaningful, balanced battle.
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at first it was more fun, but now i'm not even watching anything, wol is still the best for me, no mines, oracles, vipers and swarmhosts, add hellbat, mcore and nerf fungal and it's perfect game, don't need to mention lotv units.
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On April 11 2017 14:11 PtitDrogo wrote:
"Zerg had many more options in HotS ZvP"
xXDD
Roach/hydra/viper (or corrupter)
roach/ling or hydra/ling into mutas
mass roach variants
muta/corruptor
ling/bane/muta
infestor/ling into ultras
pure upgraded lings into fast ultras
all the stupid swarmhost builds
even bane drops popped up from time to time
Not to mention things like the early pools and all-ins. The strats fell in and out of favor but comon there was a lot of different styles :/
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On April 11 2017 14:50 Tachion wrote:
Roach/hydra/viper (or corrupter)
roach/ling or hydra/ling into mutas
mass roach variants
muta/corruptor
ling/bane/muta
infestor/ling into ultras
pure upgraded lings into fast ultras
all the stupid swarmhost builds
even bane drops popped up from time to time
Not to mention things like the early pools and all-ins. The strats fell in and out of favor but comon there was a lot of different styles :/
???????
many of these still exist plus more (ling/bane/hydra)
don't forget lurkers being the "replacement" for swarmhost builds
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On April 11 2017 15:22 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2017 14:50 Tachion wrote:
Roach/hydra/viper (or corrupter)
roach/ling or hydra/ling into mutas
mass roach variants
muta/corruptor
ling/bane/muta
infestor/ling into ultras
pure upgraded lings into fast ultras
all the stupid swarmhost builds
even bane drops popped up from time to time
Not to mention things like the early pools and all-ins. The strats fell in and out of favor but comon there was a lot of different styles :/ ??????? many of these still exist plus more (ling/bane/hydra) don't forget lurkers being the "replacement" for swarmhost builds
Well fuck me if true. I need to watch more starcraft it seems.
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Zerg's only option in HotS ZvP was to all-in or fake an all-in so +2 blink doesn't kill you no matter what you do
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 11 2017 15:35 Ej_ wrote:
Zerg's only option in HotS ZvP was to all-in or fake an all-in so +2 blink doesn't kill you no matter what you do
Really? Because, you know, there are leagues beyond masters. And I dare to say that this isn't true even for all masters players.
This is the problem. Everyone here is talking about the game not being versatile or optimal for the top players. While you have huge playerbase bellow these players. And while this game is attractive for the top players and for the mechanical players it's way less attractive for the rest. I always played a game of scouting and reacting. Now I cannot do it, before I scout something the enemy is knocking on my base. I simply have to open safely and hope. I am not a pro player, I cannot study my enemy beforehand and do a guess based on his history of games on this map. I have to play "something" and I don't know the opponent. And i don't care about top players, I care about MY ENJOYMENT.
And if these low league players are leaving then you are losing the base. From these low league players you get all the viewers. And these people are leaving, I can see it on the time of the search for a game and the quality of my opponents(way more diverse).
BTW, an example to the "zerg has no options"
"Mines killed templar openings" - sure, at the top level it did. At my level? No way, and I was diamond(this means there's more than 70 % of players under me where it's viable too). My opening was usually killed by a map design(e.g. the octopus map).
I loved to play reactive games. I scouted and reacted. It was a game of cat & mouse. And if the enemy did some mind game and I lost - hell, it was entertaining. NOw? I have to decide before I can scout anything. FFS, sometimes I am defending cannon rush before I actually see the enemy base! (4 player maps) And I'm scouting before pylon!!!
No, LotV killed the way how I play and many others. And defending top players strategies doesn't help ME.
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On April 11 2017 09:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2017 03:09 PPN wrote:
While I can understand the debate which is more fun to watch between HOTS and LOTV, I don't get why people even bring WOL in the discussion if only out of pure nostalgia. WOL was pretty much a shitshow most of its time (early on GomTvT time until Queen range, lmao PvT with Khaydarin Amulet and then 1-1-1 all-in, PvP 4Gates all day long, Immo/Sentry Soul Train, and BL Infestors for half a year). It was new and hype on the moment but let's face it at its core, WOL really is barebone, dull and broken.
I don't understand either how anyone can say out of their ass that the poll would be skewed toward LOTV because people who enjoy the game stayed and will vote while people who hate the game already left and won't even bother. Yeah all the "ded game/DK hate" posts on TL are written by ghosts. Sure. I didn't play any lotv 1v1s yet (watched a bit lately and thinking about carving out some time for it..), but WoL had some good eras too... TvZ was great for a while when it was marine tank vs muta baneling centered (nestea vs .... sC wasnt it? Was epic). TvT was good throughout all of WoL imo (fav era for me was mech v mech era but all tvt is great except pure mech vs pure bio). Played a fair bit of hots and dont think it was bad. TvT still awesome, tvp better. TvZ a bit worse maybe but the mmmm v lbm was okay. For lotv, Ive mostly seen pvz recently but that matchup looks waaaaay better than before, no?
I think 4M vs lbm is even better than marine tank vs Zerg. The thing about tanks is that the game is ending faster since you cant build tanks as fast as mines. When you lose your tanks it takes way longer to get your army again, whereas with mines the never ending pushes can continue even if the Zerg cleans up most of them with 4M there is much more action going on.
And yes, PvZ is much better, because even at the end of WoL the 2 base sentry all-in crap was starting. And isn't the resource change crucial to ending the era of 2 base all-ins?
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I don't think the game is more fun to watch as it turned to more MOBA spam abilities contest style than basic units fight
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On April 11 2017 17:29 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2017 15:35 Ej_ wrote:
Zerg's only option in HotS ZvP was to all-in or fake an all-in so +2 blink doesn't kill you no matter what you do Really? Because, you know, there are leagues beyond masters. And I dare to say that this isn't true even for all masters players. This is the problem. Everyone here is talking about the game not being versatile or optimal for the top players. While you have huge playerbase bellow these players. And while this game is attractive for the top players and for the mechanical players it's way less attractive for the rest. I always played a game of scouting and reacting. Now I cannot do it, before I scout something the enemy is knocking on my base. I simply have to open safely and hope. I am not a pro player, I cannot study my enemy beforehand and do a guess based on his history of games on this map. I have to play "something" and I don't know the opponent. And i don't care about top players, I care about MY ENJOYMENT. And if these low league players are leaving then you are losing the base. From these low league players you get all the viewers. And these people are leaving, I can see it on the time of the search for a game and the quality of my opponents(way more diverse). BTW, an example to the "zerg has no options" "Mines killed templar openings" - sure, at the top level it did. At my level? No way, and I was diamond(this means there's more than 70 % of players under me where it's viable too). My opening was usually killed by a map design(e.g. the octopus map). I loved to play reactive games. I scouted and reacted. It was a game of cat & mouse. And if the enemy did some mind game and I lost - hell, it was entertaining. NOw? I have to decide before I can scout anything. FFS, sometimes I am defending cannon rush before I actually see the enemy base! (4 player maps) And I'm scouting before pylon!!! No, LotV killed the way how I play and many others. And defending top players strategies doesn't help ME.
Half of the things u wrote there were things in HotS aswell... Afaik we are getting rid of 4 player maps in next season no? Honestly as a caster and content creator for Czech I would like to talk to you in czech if possible..
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WoL was more fun to watch imo
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LotV did not fixed HotS (and WoL, to a lesser extent) problems, and introduced new ones.
(Don't sell me BLfestor thing - then why zergs did not win 100% everything, I should ask).
When bio cost less than mech and is doing better, or when medivac drops - already OP - have now also Liberators to do 85 damage support, you know one screwed it up. And these are not BLfestor costing a ton-o-gas(tm) things reserved for minute 30 or later. Just watching aLive dropping 4 medvs with 3 libs onto a heavily defended protoss secondary, stim-stim-stim-win.
Personally, I'm watching LotV 5% of the time comparing with HotS. Not that the pros are not playing well, far from it. It's just not there anymore.
I bet a good chunk switched to BW clashes.
I stopped breathing when JD dropped lurkers from two directions into FlaSh main and expo. Me and some 300k other viewers.
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Hots zvp was one of the worst mu of all time (probably tide with tvz at the end of wol and tvp during blink area). Phoenix was a stupid and pretty op unit in the economic model : seriously a harass unit whose you can do nothing to defend against a part spore and focus the weak ones? There were almost no micro involved from the defender, 99% of the harass depended only from the protoss multitask, what a frustrating bullshit, moreover it hardcountered mutas way too much and could even outmatch corrupters with the range so, yeah, it was a joke.
3 bases/blink put ahead against any zerg build if the toss did not blunder hence the great success of "monobuild lilbow" and a nightmare to play against, the end of hots was really not interesting and I still wonder how sOs managed to lose 3 games against a zerg in the blizzcon final.
Finally after the sh nerf, it became impossible to stop the skytoss with the tempest who slowly destroyes everything why the ht/archon/vr zones out.
All in all, the less bullshit protoss play was the 2bases one, that's tell a lot how terrible the mu was for me. Today, war prism are super frustrating, adept shading too and overall, the mu is not super enjoyable but it is still miles ahead the disaster it was on hots.
However, even if at the end of hots, mech play was awful too bit overal, 4m agst mlb with some transition (thors/ultra/bl) was the best meta ever on sc2. A bit better than today despite the compo diversity and way better than at the beginning of lotv.
zvz was okaysh but I prefer the current one.
Finally the new tools that zerg must use for micro are pretty bads too, ravagers bile, parasite bombs, a lot of fungal/ neural make that positionning and mouse micro seem to have less impact than "click on the spell' one".
It' s a bit hard to judge because outside Stephano, Taeja and Life were my favorites players and they do not play on lotv so it is a bit hard to judge unbiaised but from a zerg perspective, it is :
Lotv zvp>>>>>>> hots zvp, lotv zvt<<hots zvt, lotv zvz>hots zvz.
Terran is a bit worse on lotv, protoss is still frustrating as hell in any mu but is way way better right now.
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seems its way more common for lower leagues to say hots or wol was better
also seems these same people dont play much anyway
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PvT: no
Every other matchup: yes
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On April 13 2017 04:42 EZcheezyy wrote:
seems its way more common for lower leagues to say hots or wol was better
also seems these same people dont play much anyway
If they stopped playing because of LotV, isn't that a pretty clear indicator that they did indeed enjoy HotS or WoL more...?
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On April 13 2017 05:21 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2017 04:42 EZcheezyy wrote:
seems its way more common for lower leagues to say hots or wol was better
also seems these same people dont play much anyway If they stopped playing because of LotV, isn't that a pretty clear indicator that they did indeed enjoy HotS or WoL more...?
thats not what i meant. i meant they never played much in the first place, including hots and wol
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On April 13 2017 04:42 EZcheezyy wrote:
seems its way more common for lower leagues to say hots or wol was better
also seems these same people dont play much anyway
Not sure about that, In my case I was a top master-lowgm player in EU and I enjoyed HOTS way more and the same happened for a lot of friends I knew. I don´t think that you can be 100% sure of most high level players preferring LOTV, would love to see the stats on it though.
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On April 11 2017 18:42 BriD wrote:
WoL was more fun to watch imo
WoL is better than the other two together.
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BW > WoL > LotV > HotS imho
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Apart from adpets is LotV the best of all SC2 iterations to me.
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If they stopped playing because of LotV, isn't that a pretty clear indicator that they did indeed enjoy HotS or WoL more...?
That's why to me TL is a bit irrelevant, because the poll count 550 vote so far which isn't a lot, and most of the player i know that stopped the game never came on TL or the bnet forum.
I'm not saying lotv was better or worse than hots, i already gave my point of view on this, but im saying whatever the outcome of this poll is, it will not be representative.
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I think LotV is definitely more exciting to watch but HotS was more fun to play for sure.
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I'm loving LotV as a whole. As a terran, I'm on the edge about TvP, but I like TvT and TvZ now. As a protoss, I sorely miss the feel of HotS protoss. And I don't play zerg 8)
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Game play wise yes but I'll never has as much fun watching sc2 as did in the era of our King Of Wings
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HotS was more fun to play, but LotV is more fun to watch.
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United States1840 Posts
Good games are fun to watch. There were more good games in HotS.
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I wouldn't be the right person to talk about execution since I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but at least conceptually I must be one of the few people who likes the idea of the LotV units. The disruptor, ravager, lurker, and liberator are all positional type units similar to the siege tank in that they deal a high enough amount of damage that it makes more sense to avoid them than soak their hits. At least in terms of watching, I love the ebb and flow of battles with those units, where it feels like the armies move like ocean waves, like ravagers will throw some shots down and the opponent moves back, then the opponent comes forward again after the shots, or the same with disruptors. Lurker/liberator/siege tank slow pushes that involve going around them or surrounding them or isolating them are also really great. Swarm hosts should have done this too, but they never quite worked. It feels like one of my favorite parts of watching TvT in WoL was brought to all of the races in LotV through those units. ZvZ and PvP are so much more watchable in LotV than they were in the other two just because of ravagers and disruptors.
As far as HotS vs LotV, I stopped watching in HotS and came back for LotV. I find it way more watchable. Even in WoL, there were some matches, like ZvZ, that I would refuse to watch even if I liked the players, and other matches where I would only watch if I liked the players, but in LotV I like watching most pro matches even if I'm not super interested in the players. Whether it plays that way or not, it feels much more dynamic. Also, having watched for a few months now, I still feel like I'm getting surprised by the way games turn out. Not that their aren't blow outs, but I have seen a fair few games where it seems like one person has a definite advantage but it goes back and forth a ton without a real winner. I've read some people upthread saying their are no comebacks in LotV, but that hasn't been my experience watching it. That Taeja/Zest series from the 2016 GSL was one of the most exciting games I've ever seen in SC2. Or the Maru/Innovation Proxy vs Proxy match recently went back and forth a ton and felt like it was played on a razor's edge.
As far as pure numbers, I think it's a fair point that WoL had way higher numbers than LotV, but there was also less competition. There are a ton of eSports options now that weren't around back then. It's not just SC2 being around for a while and it getting old for some people or perhaps people being turned off by the new game, it's just also way more competitive for time. I want to watch Rocket League, Heroes of the Storm, SC2, Overwatch, and those are just the games I play. Even if we ignore the subjective feelings around it, it's not a fair comparison for numbers no matter how you look at it just because the environment of eSports is so different now than it was when WoL came out. Context is king.
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Actually the answer to OP's question is quite simple. You just need to remember how long the downtime at the start of every hots match was. That alone makes lotv far superior imo.
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On April 11 2017 18:42 BriD wrote:
WoL was more fun to watch imo
That's just nostalgia, WOL was :
TvZ = mass reaper at the beginning, then bunker rush 50% of the game, finally broodlords infestors.
ZvP : 4 gates then 7 gates robot, then broodlords infestors vs archons toilets.
TvP : 1-1-1.
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On April 15 2017 19:12 Alluton wrote:
Actually the answer to OP's question is quite simple. You just need to remember how long the downtime at the start of every hots match was. That alone makes lotv far superior imo.
I think this is the least relevant argument of them all. This is a strategy game, what matters is the variety and interaction between builds/tech options and micro/macro, not the game starting sooner. This very same argument was used by blizzard in order to promote the 12 worker change and I think it is as stupid as they come (there are other more intelligent ways to defend whether to have more workers or not at the start). If you really are not going to watch or enjoy a starcraft game because you have to wait 4-5 minutes more for both player´s economy to develop, then you should not be playing or watching this game.
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On April 15 2017 19:44 Tyrhanius wrote:That's just nostalgia, WOL was : TvZ = mass reaper at the beginning, then bunker rush 50% of the game, finally broodlords infestors. ZvP : 4 gates then 7 gates robot, then broodlords infestors vs archons toilets. TvP : 1-1-1.
Nope, not in all of WoL. I can speak for protoss matches only.
PvZ: 200/200 at 12 min, 200/200 at 14 min (mass blink stalkers from pro player to beat broodlord/infestor), HerO's warp prism play, soul train (all-in), etc.
PvT: Not just 1-1-1, there were a lot of macro games too. Essentially, long macro game > terran though.
Still more fun than mass swarm hosts, mass void rays/carriers, oracles, speed mutas and widow mine drops.
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On April 15 2017 20:28 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 19:44 Tyrhanius wrote:On April 11 2017 18:42 BriD wrote:
WoL was more fun to watch imo That's just nostalgia, WOL was : TvZ = mass reaper at the beginning, then bunker rush 50% of the game, finally broodlords infestors. ZvP : 4 gates then 7 gates robot, then broodlords infestors vs archons toilets. TvP : 1-1-1. Nope, not in all of WoL. I can speak for protoss matches only. PvZ: 200/200 at 12 min, 200/200 at 14 min (mass blink stalkers from pro player to beat broodlord/infestor), HerO's warp prism play, soul train (all-in), etc. PvT: Not just 1-1-1, there were a lot of macro games too. Essentially, long macro game > terran though. Still more fun than mass swarm hosts, mass void rays/carriers, oracles, speed mutas and widow mine drops.
Imo every game as a Zerg player became boring to watch/play once the Queen patch hit, and even more so once Broodlord/Queen/Infestor became the dominant meta in both (arguably all 3) matchups. Final nail in my WoL spectator coffin was when Archon toilets became a thing, then the game just felt like Deathball vs Deathball if it ever made it to late.
The only saving grace was every now and then MarineKing would pull out a Hellion/Thor timing attack that nobody had seen before.
Coming back to LotV after skipping HotS, I'm much happier with the state of the game now even after swapping to Random. 3-Base turtle Protoss (Ala CombX) in particular is something that I don't really miss.
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Are you guys really sure that LOTV is more action packed? Im skeptical about that. The expansion may have started out more aggressive when people were trying things out and when the builds werent settled as they are now.
Now most games are going up to 2-3 bases before action and in WOL/Hots that action happened at 1-2 bases.
I somewhat miss those 1 base all ins everything feels to safe atm the first few minutes of the game.
Also dont forget players just naturally get better so thats probably a big portion where the additional action comes from.
Looking at WOL games now makes me almost think my noobass could beat those guys.
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People need to realize this game is about deathballs and speed up the production pace to get larger armies out earlier in the game and for most of the game. So after a big deathball fight it's not instantly over. Tone down terrible terrible damage? Change something core to the game.
They used brood war sized battles in an sc2 engine (perfect pathing, unlimited selection, smart casting, 2 click terrible terrible damage). Wrong. The game needs to be designed around 30+ unit battles always.
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On April 11 2017 04:44 avilo wrote:
Why are there so many people in this thread mistaking two different things?
1500 mineral economy had nothing to do with the terrible swarmhost/raven/collosus ball lazer gameplay of HOTS.
Those things were problems in and of themselves - balance/design problems of those units specifically.
1500 mineral economy has been used since Brood War and is proven that having that much resources per base leads to healthy gameplay where you can play either defensively (turtle) or offensively (attack/harass).
Removing the minerals per base in LOTV has led to purely offensive (attack/harrass) oriented gameplay with defensive play being punished for no reason at all.
DO NOT CONFUSE THE TWO THINGS GUYS. 1500 MINERAL PATCHES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SWARMHOST/TURTLE gameplay. 1500 minerals was never a problem in the first place.
You could not turtle in bw either. 1 base protoss vs 2 base terran? As soon as terran gets ahead in bases protoss is so screwed in bw! Also you had more time to profit from more income.
In bw maps are bigger, bases are further away which creates more opportunities to attack. In sc2 bases are close, because certain races need a certain number of secure bases.
Another reason for less resources was protoss who made one all in after another, even if they failed the next all in could work.
Blizzard reduced the minerals a little bit to create more opportunities to attack and to prevent one 2 base all in after another from protoss.
In the past only terrans could harass. Hots and lotv gave other races the same number of options to harass. Yes, you see more harass in tournaments now, but only because other races catched up to terran harass, which is totally fair.
Naturally terrans enjoyed wol more, because in wol a 3min hellion runby could kill a zerg.
Also just because a game worked in a certain way (1500 minerals per crystal), it doesn't mean another game can't work in a different way. You can't compare two so different games with each other. Doesn't it matter how much units cost? Do timings and the difficulty to expand not matter?
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They used brood war sized battles in an sc2 engine (perfect pathing, unlimited selection, smart casting, 2 click terrible terrible damage). In my humble opinion, the game needs to be designed around 30+ unit battles always. I see people complain that the game led up to one big battle and then it was over quickly (they waited 20 minutes to get that battle prepared then it was 3 seconds and game over). So make many big battles and make them easier to get to, change core design. Maybe reduce terrible terrible damage.
Even the sc2 engine has limitations in terms of how combat efficient units can be relative to the battle size. In brood war this occurs early in the game with few units due the the pathing and limitations on unit selection. In sc2 this limitation occurs much later: take for example a 50 stalker ball and a 24 stalker ball. The 50 stalker ball pretty much has stalkers in the back doing nothing especially when you factor in terrain. Whereas the 24 stalker ball has all of them covering eachother from lings and they can blink in with good mobility and all take a shot at buildings etc. The combat characteristics here are mostly determined by the stalker speed, blink range, stalker range, collision size, and of course the pathing fluidity.
Another example, what is 2 extra zealots in a 15 zealot squad, pretty huge with the sc2 engine, not so much in brood war. But then lets say what is 5 zealots in a 60 zealot squad, not so much even in the sc2 engine; diminishing returns of combat efficiency.
A first draft of this idea to considerably increase the production pace would be some combination of: considerably faster build time for units, considerably cheaper resource cost for units, considerably faster mining rate, reduced DPS.
Example:
reduce all combat unit build times from 100% to 33%
reduce all combat unit cost from 100% to 33%
reduce combat unit DPS from 100% to 66%
This gives a much finer mechanical difference in terms of production and combat. Brood war has automine and mbs related tasks, here we can have very tight production cycles and very large battles. Your're attention spending on macro has more impact again; better macro differentiation.
What made brood war battles interesting is you never knew for sure what the units behavior would do. In sc2 you need to get to large armies to be unsure of what squads in the back/flanks will do.
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I loved WoL so much, it was an introduction to the esports world fot me. I feel like I loved it because of everything surrounding it. Taking 2 days off work to watch Huk win MLG is one of my best video game related memory. But seriously, what a freakin mess that game was.
I stopped watching completly during HotS. I hated SH so bad, it killed the game for me.
I feel like LotV has great fundamentals and i'm still loving it as of yet, but I hate adepts and liberator more and more every day.
I feel like they need to tweak some animations to make it more enjoyable to watch ravagers/liberators/lurkers. So hard to track the damage output and to be excited about what is happening when you almost have no idea what is hitting what, where and for how much.
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HotS made Sc2 much worse (in my opinion) but I still used to watch it from time to time. LotV killed the game completely for me (yes I tried it) so I voted for HotS. I stick with BW now, and I don't think it will change unless Blizzard does massive changes to Sc2.
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Also I'm not sure about this feature, whether units should "push" other units out of the way even when they're not on hold position.
+ Show Spoiler +
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United States33326 Posts
feels like a lateral move to me, I don't really prefer either
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At this point I feel like most people in the community agree that the sc2 engine gets in the way of a great game. Things like unlimited selection and smart casting make it impossible to not climax in a deathball vs deathball fight.
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Protoss players probably find lotv much more fun to play.
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On April 16 2017 05:04 SlammerSC2 wrote:
Protoss players probably find lotv much more fun to play.
Not sure if this was meant to be sarcastic.
I stopped playing because Protoss lost all strategic depth in lotv. Make adepts, harass with them, allin with them, etc. and hope you do enough damage to clean up with other units or win outright.
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On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots
I totally agree!
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On April 16 2017 02:39 Meepman wrote:
At this point I feel like most people in the community agree that the sc2 engine gets in the way of a great game. Things like unlimited selection and smart casting make it impossible to not climax in a deathball vs deathball fight.
I feel it's not so much the engine, but the fact that we forcefully injected a lot of design ideas from brood war into sc2 when the engines are so far apart. Have 1 dragoon around the time we have 1 stalker... why? Why do you think the production pace should be the same when the engine clearly handles mass units very differently.
Things like resource gathering, tech timings, unit costs, and unit build times among other things. These things I feel should be determined after you set the collision radius, attack range, mobility, and pathfinding behavior (and especially after major design decisions such as automine, MBS, unlimited selection, smart casting, etc.).
Currently, sc2 engine is trying to make brood war sized battles interesting instead of trying to find the correct scale for various game parameters to suit the engine behaviors.
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United States1840 Posts
On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree!
You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything.
This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible.
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On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible.
Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post.
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France12771 Posts
On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post.
RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games.
It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is.
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On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is.
Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular.
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On April 16 2017 07:39 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is. Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular.
Making Starcraft super popular would probably include making it a team game and removing more or less every mechanic required to play it so it wouldn't be Starcraft anymore.
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United States1840 Posts
On April 16 2017 07:42 Valikyr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:39 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is. Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular. Making Starcraft super popular would probably include making it a team game and removing more or less every mechanic required to play it so it wouldn't be Starcraft anymore.
Starcraft doesn't have to be popular to be good.
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Norway28630 Posts
I honestly think a lot of the moba scene would enjoy playing 3v3 bgh, or even fastest map, in brood war, at least against other inexperienced players. But with how the professional scene has always revolved around 1v1, people who haven't played the game haven't been exposed to that game mode and don't have any awareness of it even existing.
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On April 16 2017 07:39 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is. Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular.
When was that? Back when Moba's were custom maps on rts games? If memory serves, Once the rts shell was jettisoned, moba's popularity skyrocketed. so that doesn't really help your argument.
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On April 16 2017 07:55 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:39 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is. Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular. When was that? Back when Moba's were custom maps on rts games? If memory serves, Once the rts shell was jettisoned, moba's popularity skyrocketed. so that doesn't really help your argument.
wasn't wc3 dota already more popular than wc3 itself back in 08/09
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I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting.
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On April 16 2017 08:21 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:55 MstrJinbo wrote:On April 16 2017 07:39 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is. Why not? MOBA was once unpopular too. With the right changes to game, you can make StarCraft popular. When was that? Back when Moba's were custom maps on rts games? If memory serves, Once the rts shell was jettisoned, moba's popularity skyrocketed. so that doesn't really help your argument. wasn't wc3 dota already more popular than wc3 itself back in 08/09
Pretty much my experience with it (maybe even sooner than 08/09), to most people I knew: the Hero units were the most fun part about Wc3-- so once people got on board with the idea of taking away army/macro elements it was really just about finding a gamemode that made Hero units the most fun to play. This history is reflected in other custom maps like Anime Battle, Hero Siege, etc.
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On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting.
WoL felt like two ends of a spectrum with no middle ground, so I would disagree. Early WoL was every reaper/bunker variant under the sun, while late WoL was every variant of paths into BL/Infestor vs Protoss Deathball. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. Economy harass is both more punishing because of new units but also recoverable due to just a faster economy, so games have more comeback stories to them.
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On April 16 2017 07:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I honestly think a lot of the moba scene would enjoy playing 3v3 bgh, or even fastest map, in brood war, at least against other inexperienced players. But with how the professional scene has always revolved around 1v1, people who haven't played the game haven't been exposed to that game mode and don't have any awareness of it even existing.
I don't think so. While the 1v1 aspect of not being able to blame others is certainly a factor, another factor is that there is no hero to "identify" yourself with. This will be relevant especially for the younger audience. But an even bigger factor is that in all those game modes multitasking is supremely important. And multitasking is stressful. And the MOBA scene is actually quite tryhard.
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On April 16 2017 07:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I honestly think a lot of the moba scene would enjoy playing 3v3 bgh, or even fastest map, in brood war, at least against other inexperienced players. But with how the professional scene has always revolved around 1v1, people who haven't played the game haven't been exposed to that game mode and don't have any awareness of it even existing.
It's funny. There's always a BGH game open in custom games, and custom games are completely free.
You can download SC2 for free and jump into a BGH game on megaton pretty much immediately.
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On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues.
The irony there...
Killing off one basing reduces the variety of playstyles.
I found there to be plenty of middle ground in WOL. But relative LOTV (which is nearly all middle ground, there is no extremes that added variety to the game that I enjoyed) WOL certainly had more volatility.
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On April 16 2017 09:54 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. The irony there... Killing off one basing reduces the variety of playstyles. I found there to be plenty of middle ground in WOL. But relative LOTV (which is nearly all middle ground, there is no extremes that added variety to the game that I enjoyed) WOL certainly had more volatility.
It reduces the variety of playstyles in a game state where 1-base builds aren't completely oppressing other builds.
Some matchups didn't have this problem, but PvP in particular did when 4-gate all-ins were a do or die strat. TvP also had this during the 1-1-1 era (Early WoL reaper rushes are also an example, but I think everyone agrees that's an extreme case). I'd credit the blandness of LotV's middle ground to unit design, but the general flow of games across matchups feels more fleshed out which I think is nice.
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Is LotV more fun to watch than HotS?
NO. There is no need to make a pool to answer this. Watch the Twitch statistique. Even with the WCS compétition there is less than 20k people...
Don't forget than TL is for people who play the game everyday, you don't read/answer a TL thread if you stop to play this game.
This is the big David Kim mistake, accelerate the game with 12 harvesters, and think that people will watch without playing cause game will be awesome. It's not the case. The games are not better, and people stopped playing this game. Blizzard need to come back on 6 harvesters And many things will be settled by it itself.
A lot of people think, problem is not speed, it's unit like Liberator, but it's wrong, unit like Liberator are a problem cause they come too fast in the game. With 6, if you go Liberator, you pay the price, no B2. And a lot of argumente who goes for 12 harvesters, with a "But we just need to fix this" are solved with the 6 harvesters start.
Blizzard, make the good choice please.
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On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. WoL felt like two ends of a spectrum with no middle ground, so I would disagree. Early WoL was every reaper/bunker variant under the sun, while late WoL was every variant of paths into BL/Infestor vs Protoss Deathball. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. Economy harass is both more punishing because of new units but also recoverable due to just a faster economy, so games have more comeback stories to them.
But the 1st expansion is literally free in LOTV, artificially made by blizzard to give spectators a more base is good feeling.
At this rate, blizzard might as well start the game with 2 bases, because 2nd base is basically risk free to take.
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On April 16 2017 10:14 -Kuya wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 09:54 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. The irony there... Killing off one basing reduces the variety of playstyles. I found there to be plenty of middle ground in WOL. But relative LOTV (which is nearly all middle ground, there is no extremes that added variety to the game that I enjoyed) WOL certainly had more volatility. It reduces the variety of playstyles in a game state where 1-base builds aren't completely oppressing other builds. Some matchups didn't have this problem, but PvP in particular did when 4-gate all-ins were a do or die strat. TvP also had this during the 1-1-1 era (Early WoL reaper rushes are also an example, but I think everyone agrees that's an extreme case). I'd credit the blandness of LotV's middle ground to unit design, but the general flow of games across matchups feels more fleshed out which I think is nice.
Unless you are talking about early WOL, the 4 Gate wasn't a threat in PvP. When I was in tryhard mode in SC2, I watched every game PvP replay from the TSL4 Korean qualifiers to get ideas for builds. Many 4 gates were attempted (mostly by Chinese playerS) not a single one succeeded. It was a dead build at a high level, and certainly wasn't oppressive.
But anyway, you're overlooking my point. Yes, there were occasional builds/units that were too strong/weak just like Adepts and Liberators were too strong on launch for Protoss. But I wouldn't damn LOTV for Adepts and Liberators being too strong just like I wouldn't damn WOL for a few overpowered all-ins.
But if you had some skills in WOL and could earn an expansion, then the game was like the wild west and could end at any moment. There was massive variety because expansions weren't free.
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i miss wol, BL infestor and the same overpowered protoss immortal all in every single game, and terrans running around with marines putting way more effort into their wins than other races was so fun!!
i'm not influenced by nostalgia at all
/s
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On April 16 2017 11:12 fx9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. WoL felt like two ends of a spectrum with no middle ground, so I would disagree. Early WoL was every reaper/bunker variant under the sun, while late WoL was every variant of paths into BL/Infestor vs Protoss Deathball. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. Economy harass is both more punishing because of new units but also recoverable due to just a faster economy, so games have more comeback stories to them. But the 1st expansion is literally free in LOTV, artificially made by blizzard to give spectators a more base is good feeling. At this rate, blizzard might as well start the game with 2 bases, because 2nd base is basically risk free to take.
That free natural expansion is as much at the fault of the community as at the fault of Blizzard, if not more. Easy natural expansions and in-base expansions had been a thing on community maps before Blizzard began to embrace them more in response. People were tired of so many cheesy one-base games on crappy Blizzard maps that easier expansions were pushed by community maps.
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This whole thread could be renamed "DAE have Selective memory ?"
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If you add all the votes from people that have left the game it would be 90/10 in favor of HOTS (or WOL).
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On April 16 2017 16:28 PtitDrogo wrote:
This whole thread could be renamed "DAE have Selective memory ?"
Or, it could be renamed to "Does any other current pro gamer think LotV is the best?".
I suggest you keep playing the game and let people express their opinion. You're nobody to tell people if they should like any of the three versions of StarCraft 2. It's a thread about opinions.
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On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 07:02 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 06:19 mizenhauer wrote:On April 16 2017 05:22 WhosQuany wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots I totally agree! You know, I voted no, but only because I felt so strongly on the subject that I spent a lot of time writing an article to prove that my opinion was not just valid, but defensible. A lot of people in this thread on both sides share poorly founded opinions passed off as fact and expect it to convince anyone of anything. This is real hot button issue that triggers a lot of reflexive rehashed, recycled responses that a lot of people heard from someone else and took as doctrine. I could tell you all the reasons why I think HotS is better (you can read a couple of them in the article if you're interested), but even though I presented them in a logical, structured fashion, you (and almost everyone who agrees with you) wouldn't care. This issue might as well be politics. The two camps are so entrenched on either side that real progressive discussion is impossible. Whatever we discuss is pointless. What's more important is neither HotS nor LotV are able to compete with LoL and CS: GO. There's something that's not designed properly in SC2 or maybe more than one one thing that game designers haven't identified. I'm sure everyone can give examples, but if Blizzard aren't willing to do anything, then it's just a post. RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is.
It wasn't that long ago when RTS would usually have the premiere game stage at most major gaming events between BW, WC3 and for a little while Sc2. We are not going back to the dark ages here, 5 years ago or so. I really just think we need some innovation and a couple of great games to revitalise the genre.
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On April 16 2017 16:04 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 11:12 fx9 wrote:On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. WoL felt like two ends of a spectrum with no middle ground, so I would disagree. Early WoL was every reaper/bunker variant under the sun, while late WoL was every variant of paths into BL/Infestor vs Protoss Deathball. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. Economy harass is both more punishing because of new units but also recoverable due to just a faster economy, so games have more comeback stories to them. But the 1st expansion is literally free in LOTV, artificially made by blizzard to give spectators a more base is good feeling. At this rate, blizzard might as well start the game with 2 bases, because 2nd base is basically risk free to take. That free natural expansion is as much at the fault of the community as at the fault of Blizzard, if not more. Easy natural expansions and in-base expansions had been a thing on community maps before Blizzard began to embrace them more in response. People were tired of so many cheesy one-base games on crappy Blizzard maps that easier expansions were pushed by community maps.
i think the expansion thing is pretty interesting. I don't particularly like that there's few units that can siege the first expansion that is going up. in and around that time, the game is focused around something very different whether it be medevac w/ mine drop, queens for defending, or pylon cannon with an oracle opening.
everything comes out very quickly or timely to help you defend.
if I can be allowed to use this thread to share my opinion on what has bothered me about the game, it is just the medivac boost that changes the game dramatically. it feels good for the player, but it also is a mechanic that happens at a blistering speed. very few units on their own can catch up or hope to deal with it. these units in a standing army don't normally stand a chance, nor do they serve a specific purpose until hitting a heavy mass.
this is the one thing in WoL that I enjoyed more than all other iterations. drops were equally important, but there was a very specific pace to it that all spectators of the game could enjoy. it is a sort of strategy that is both punishing and challenging for its user, and also very simple in concept
the units come out one at a time, and the vehicle has to take a very predictable route.
all that counts is timing and the sense for when it is going to happen.
understanding when and where you are weakest is a rewarding experience in starcraft because you then learn how to respond and deflect.
something like medevac boost removes a lot of that potential just because of the speed at which it flies to its destination.
in TvZ that is a very touchy thing because many terran (self included) rely on the medevac control (with boost) to tie up an opponent and wear them out thin, as retreating normally on no-boost medivacs is hopeful at best.
it has been a real hassle to balance defender's advantage with the units being involved.
it is quite easy to work around most static defense unless a heavy sim city is devoted and when that happens, it is something else entirely. it's more than an expansion or an objective you must defend. it is your entire lifeline that must continually be bolstered and defended unless you are placing pressure to alleviate your own.
however, the solution for the player has almost always been to use units in the defense that will be a part of the main army.
because the game is so efficient I don't blame the game nor the players. it's just a style where you get quick and very efficient damage, before winning the game by walking across the map. the counterplay is just more difficult for regular players to grasp as a result, and scouting for such a fast game can be a big gamble.
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On April 16 2017 17:24 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 16:28 PtitDrogo wrote:
This whole thread could be renamed "DAE have Selective memory ?" Or, it could be renamed to "Does any other current pro gamer think LotV is the best?". I suggest you keep playing the game and let people express their opinion. You're nobody to tell people if they should like any of the three versions of StarCraft 2. It's a thread about opinions.
hahahaha what? He didn't say that he was in a better position to say anything above others. Get your shit together man.
He simply pointed out that apparently some people in here forget some (presumably ugly) parts of the previous titles.
Or maybe they never even experienced them?
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On April 16 2017 19:19 Aunvilgodess wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 17:24 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 16:28 PtitDrogo wrote:
This whole thread could be renamed "DAE have Selective memory ?" Or, it could be renamed to "Does any other current pro gamer think LotV is the best?". I suggest you keep playing the game and let people express their opinion. You're nobody to tell people if they should like any of the three versions of StarCraft 2. It's a thread about opinions. hahahaha what? He didn't say that he was in a better position to say anything above others. Get your shit together man. He simply pointed out that apparently some people in here forget some (presumably ugly) parts of the previous titles. Or maybe they never even experienced them?
His post is definitely vague enough that you can interpret it that older expansions were worse or mostly worse and people were selectively forgetting that. It's not my fault he can't put in enough effort to explain himself in a clear way. In the past, TL was looking down on one-liners.
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On April 16 2017 20:11 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 19:19 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 16 2017 17:24 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 16:28 PtitDrogo wrote:
This whole thread could be renamed "DAE have Selective memory ?" Or, it could be renamed to "Does any other current pro gamer think LotV is the best?". I suggest you keep playing the game and let people express their opinion. You're nobody to tell people if they should like any of the three versions of StarCraft 2. It's a thread about opinions. hahahaha what? He didn't say that he was in a better position to say anything above others. Get your shit together man. He simply pointed out that apparently some people in here forget some (presumably ugly) parts of the previous titles. Or maybe they never even experienced them? His post is definitely vague enough that you can interpret it that older expansions were worse or mostly worse and people were selectively forgetting that. It's not my fault he can't put in enough effort to explain himself in a clear way.
Oh I think its quite obvious that that is what he means, and I wholeheartedly agree. To me the notion of WoL being better than LotV is absurd. But anyway, he nowhere said that his opinion is more important or trying to to stop others of voicing their opinions.
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On April 16 2017 20:14 Aunvilgodess wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 20:11 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 19:19 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 16 2017 17:24 Shield wrote:On April 16 2017 16:28 PtitDrogo wrote:
This whole thread could be renamed "DAE have Selective memory ?" Or, it could be renamed to "Does any other current pro gamer think LotV is the best?". I suggest you keep playing the game and let people express their opinion. You're nobody to tell people if they should like any of the three versions of StarCraft 2. It's a thread about opinions. hahahaha what? He didn't say that he was in a better position to say anything above others. Get your shit together man. He simply pointed out that apparently some people in here forget some (presumably ugly) parts of the previous titles. Or maybe they never even experienced them? His post is definitely vague enough that you can interpret it that older expansions were worse or mostly worse and people were selectively forgetting that. It's not my fault he can't put in enough effort to explain himself in a clear way. he nowhere said that his opinion ... trying to to stop others of voicing their opinions.
I'm not sure about that part. His topic suggestion implies exactly that - it's a bit too much to cut off any criticism about LotV. Again, I don't expect current pro gamers to say anything else. They depend on LotV scene for their income. It's like Artosis and Tasteless saying that StarCraft 2 is the best game ever, yet they go and cast BW. While it doesn't contradict their statement necessarily, you can see that StarCraft 2 professionals say what's appropriate in their current situation which isn't always the truth. Either way, it's clear that a lot of people prefer WoL over LotV, HotS over LotV and LotV over HotS. I don't think it's fair to discard either group of these people easily.
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I don't get why people hated the swarm hosts in HotS.
The games where finally tactical and resembled BW map tactics for a bit.
The problem was just that in PvZ lategame protoss didn't have much options in split map situations, while zerg could turtle up with mass static defence, fungaling and abducting everything.
I still think that there where other options to make swarm hosts more managable like:
- make locusts weaker
- make a window between locust spawn bigger for attack to happen
- make swarmhost cooldown on hold while not burrowed
- make some protoss unit changes to address lategame better
- add some aoe unit for protoss
I still hate fungal - which if you chain can lead to complete destruction of a clumped air force. It should have been some ground only ability or a creep tumor like thing that would e.g. slow down units in area.
Abduct would be better as a skill shot(with lower cost or sth) where you would need to aim for a direction and you would grab first enemy unit that it touches.
Mothership/Mothership core = not a fan of a super-unit.
Feedback vs snipe is bad concept which often leads to binary result situations.
For LotV changes I like changes to immortals, tanks(after removing the silly drop) and ravagers, disruptors are quite nice new units.
Cyclone is really uncreative.
Adepts are just too crazy for harassment leaving very small room for zerg oppenings.
Liberator would have maybe been okay if the primary use wouldn't be "liberation" of enemy workers.
Yeah I feel like in general WoL, HotS and LotV all have they charms, however the old charms where never transitioned into the new product making it feel like it was 3 completely different games.
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I think they need to trim the game down, it is a mistake to think more units = better game. This has been my biggest criticism of LotV over the prior games, the plethora of new units - particulary all the spellcasters - has muddled the landscape, complicating the game in ways more akin to a MOBA game than an RTS. With so many skill shots and spellcasters, it becomes micro arena with a small macro component.
It is easy to see why they went with this approach. SC2 is inherently flawed in giving too much macroing power to the player in the form of MBS, unlimited unit selection, perfect unit pathing and auto-harvest, removing the need for much of the player's attention. The obvious solution then is to give the player more things to do in the micro department. The problem is this makes it a completely different game, by removing the balance between managing your bases and managing your army. All your attention now has to be centered around your units, and how well you fire that next disruptor shot or place your liberators. Base management is no longer a top priority.
Apart from making the game more one-dimensional, this removes part of the surprise of the game when someone is able to win not through any grand feat of micro, but through well-crafted and well-executed timing attacks against their opponent. Or win through the brute force approach of greedy macro play. Or by simply maneuvering their units in clever ways that manage to abuse map idiosyncrasies, without the need for perfect skill shots.
I haven't followed much of LotV admittedly (for the reasons above and more), but I would bet we will see far more micro-oriented builds in the future centred around units such as the disruptor, ravager, and liberator. Players will realise that with this many spellcaster in the game the best tactic is to try and abuse them. I hope this to be the case, since this would be the best chance at Blizzard doing something about this. Whether that means removing certain spellcasters, or nerfing them such that they become very situational rather than dominant units. In any case, after all the great ideas they've introduced to the game, it seems sensible for them to take a step back and trim the game back to its key disciplines.
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On April 16 2017 23:12 XenoX101 wrote:It is easy to see why they went with this approach. SC2 is inherently flawed in giving too much macroing power to the player in the form of MBS, unlimited unit selection, perfect unit pathing and auto-harvest, removing the need for much of the player's attention. The obvious solution then is to give the player more things to do in the micro department.
Which is precisely why I suggest we drastically increase the production pace of the game. To me, that is the simplest way to inject skill and differentiation back into macro and early game micro. Make actually devoting 100% of your clicks and attention to macro more meaningful again. Off the top of my head the way to do this is to make production cycles tighter. Instead of a production cycle every X seconds, have a production cycle every X/3 seconds. At minimum, to explore this would be to set combat unit costs and combat unit build times to 33%. This also makes it so more units are on the field more often, and controlling average-sized armies will be more skillful since the average size of battles increases to the point where the pathing, collision, and highly differentiated micro come into play. I anticipate that with much larger armies, terrible terrible damage could create issues so I would also investigate setting unit DPS to 66%. Don't wait 20 minutes for deathball armies to clash for 3 seconds and game over. Instead, have deathball armies clashing for 5-7 seconds all game and then possibly a super-mega-epic-deathball fight at the end. Even in sc2, pathing concerns come into play for micro in large scale battles. The earlier and more often you have these, the more chance there is for skill differentiation, similar to how brood war offers it greatly all game.
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On April 16 2017 19:11 nanaoei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 16:04 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 16 2017 11:12 fx9 wrote:On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. WoL felt like two ends of a spectrum with no middle ground, so I would disagree. Early WoL was every reaper/bunker variant under the sun, while late WoL was every variant of paths into BL/Infestor vs Protoss Deathball. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. Economy harass is both more punishing because of new units but also recoverable due to just a faster economy, so games have more comeback stories to them. But the 1st expansion is literally free in LOTV, artificially made by blizzard to give spectators a more base is good feeling. At this rate, blizzard might as well start the game with 2 bases, because 2nd base is basically risk free to take. That free natural expansion is as much at the fault of the community as at the fault of Blizzard, if not more. Easy natural expansions and in-base expansions had been a thing on community maps before Blizzard began to embrace them more in response. People were tired of so many cheesy one-base games on crappy Blizzard maps that easier expansions were pushed by community maps. i think the expansion thing is pretty interesting. I don't particularly like that there's few units that can siege the first expansion that is going up. in and around that time, the game is focused around something very different whether it be medevac w/ mine drop, queens for defending, or pylon cannon with an oracle opening. everything comes out very quickly or timely to help you defend. if I can be allowed to use this thread to share my opinion on what has bothered me about the game, it is just the medivac boost that changes the game dramatically. it feels good for the player, but it also is a mechanic that happens at a blistering speed. very few units on their own can catch up or hope to deal with it. these units in a standing army don't normally stand a chance, nor do they serve a specific purpose until hitting a heavy mass. this is the one thing in WoL that I enjoyed more than all other iterations. drops were equally important, but there was a very specific pace to it that all spectators of the game could enjoy. it is a sort of strategy that is both punishing and challenging for its user, and also very simple in concept the units come out one at a time, and the vehicle has to take a very predictable route. all that counts is timing and the sense for when it is going to happen. understanding when and where you are weakest is a rewarding experience in starcraft because you then learn how to respond and deflect. something like medevac boost removes a lot of that potential just because of the speed at which it flies to its destination. in TvZ that is a very touchy thing because many terran (self included) rely on the medevac control (with boost) to tie up an opponent and wear them out thin, as retreating normally on no-boost medivacs is hopeful at best. it has been a real hassle to balance defender's advantage with the units being involved. it is quite easy to work around most static defense unless a heavy sim city is devoted and when that happens, it is something else entirely. it's more than an expansion or an objective you must defend. it is your entire lifeline that must continually be bolstered and defended unless you are placing pressure to alleviate your own. however, the solution for the player has almost always been to use units in the defense that will be a part of the main army. because the game is so efficient I don't blame the game nor the players. it's just a style where you get quick and very efficient damage, before winning the game by walking across the map. the counterplay is just more difficult for regular players to grasp as a result, and scouting for such a fast game can be a big gamble.
Agreed. The more speed equals higher skill ceiling approach has severely messed up the pacing of the game and is what can be so frustrating for so many players. The super high speed air units also heavily reduce most of the features map makers can use to change up the battlefield. Medivacs being the worst offender, since it basically makes your entire army airbourne.
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France12771 Posts
On April 16 2017 16:52 MockHamill wrote:
If you add all the votes from people that have left the game it would be 90/10 in favor of HOTS (or WOL).
HotS was so horrible it wasn't even funny.
There was this unit that got removed, there was the hellbat shitfest, the regular hour long swarm host games, the forever 3 bases 20mn long games, the blink allins games....
WoL maybe depending on which patch but it became an horrible game as well.
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On April 18 2017 17:10 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 19:11 nanaoei wrote:On April 16 2017 16:04 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 16 2017 11:12 fx9 wrote:On April 16 2017 09:29 -Kuya wrote:On April 16 2017 08:26 BronzeKnee wrote:
I do think it is better to compare LOTV to WOL. HOTS was a nightmare to watch with the Swarmhost and the ridiculous turtling.
I still find WOL much more watchable. The short games, the variety of build, tension because the game could end at any moment with cheese, was exciting. WoL felt like two ends of a spectrum with no middle ground, so I would disagree. Early WoL was every reaper/bunker variant under the sun, while late WoL was every variant of paths into BL/Infestor vs Protoss Deathball. If anything, LotV is great because every modern build always seems to include at least an expansion, which I feel opens up more playstyle avenues. Economy harass is both more punishing because of new units but also recoverable due to just a faster economy, so games have more comeback stories to them. But the 1st expansion is literally free in LOTV, artificially made by blizzard to give spectators a more base is good feeling. At this rate, blizzard might as well start the game with 2 bases, because 2nd base is basically risk free to take. That free natural expansion is as much at the fault of the community as at the fault of Blizzard, if not more. Easy natural expansions and in-base expansions had been a thing on community maps before Blizzard began to embrace them more in response. People were tired of so many cheesy one-base games on crappy Blizzard maps that easier expansions were pushed by community maps. i think the expansion thing is pretty interesting. I don't particularly like that there's few units that can siege the first expansion that is going up. in and around that time, the game is focused around something very different whether it be medevac w/ mine drop, queens for defending, or pylon cannon with an oracle opening. everything comes out very quickly or timely to help you defend. if I can be allowed to use this thread to share my opinion on what has bothered me about the game, it is just the medivac boost that changes the game dramatically. it feels good for the player, but it also is a mechanic that happens at a blistering speed. very few units on their own can catch up or hope to deal with it. these units in a standing army don't normally stand a chance, nor do they serve a specific purpose until hitting a heavy mass. this is the one thing in WoL that I enjoyed more than all other iterations. drops were equally important, but there was a very specific pace to it that all spectators of the game could enjoy. it is a sort of strategy that is both punishing and challenging for its user, and also very simple in concept the units come out one at a time, and the vehicle has to take a very predictable route. all that counts is timing and the sense for when it is going to happen. understanding when and where you are weakest is a rewarding experience in starcraft because you then learn how to respond and deflect. something like medevac boost removes a lot of that potential just because of the speed at which it flies to its destination. in TvZ that is a very touchy thing because many terran (self included) rely on the medevac control (with boost) to tie up an opponent and wear them out thin, as retreating normally on no-boost medivacs is hopeful at best. it has been a real hassle to balance defender's advantage with the units being involved. it is quite easy to work around most static defense unless a heavy sim city is devoted and when that happens, it is something else entirely. it's more than an expansion or an objective you must defend. it is your entire lifeline that must continually be bolstered and defended unless you are placing pressure to alleviate your own. however, the solution for the player has almost always been to use units in the defense that will be a part of the main army. because the game is so efficient I don't blame the game nor the players. it's just a style where you get quick and very efficient damage, before winning the game by walking across the map. the counterplay is just more difficult for regular players to grasp as a result, and scouting for such a fast game can be a big gamble. Agreed. The more speed equals higher skill ceiling approach has severely messed up the pacing of the game and is what can be so frustrating for so many players. The super high speed air units also heavily reduce most of the features map makers can use to change up the battlefield. Medivacs being the worst offender, since it basically makes your entire army airbourne.
very good point, I keep forgetting about maps, but I wish we had gotten to see more examples of interesting ones.
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It's much more fun to play for me. I couldn't play HoTS at all it never felt well balanced and tankivacs ruined TvT for me. LoTV has been much more fun and I really enjoy the faster paced games.
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WCS Austin just remembered me why I can't enjoy watching this game since LotV came out.I've tried to support SC2 as I could,but this is not the game I used to love and I can't handle its design anymore.
I'm out of it .You guys are a great community,best of luck!
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On May 01 2017 07:38 raff100 wrote:
WCS Austin just remembered me why I can't enjoy watching this game since LotV came out.I've tried to support SC2 as I could,but this is not the game I used to love and I can't handle its design anymore.
I'm out of it .You guys are a great community,best of luck!
Well fortunately WCS Austin reminded me of why I came back to this game again after a break during hots.
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On May 01 2017 07:38 raff100 wrote:
WCS Austin just remembered me why I can't enjoy watching this game since LotV came out.I've tried to support SC2 as I could,but this is not the game I used to love and I can't handle its design anymore.
I'm out of it .You guys are a great community,best of luck!
Or you just had your favourite race lose and are salty about it. Sorry for the sad truth.
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On May 01 2017 07:53 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2017 07:38 raff100 wrote:
WCS Austin just remembered me why I can't enjoy watching this game since LotV came out.I've tried to support SC2 as I could,but this is not the game I used to love and I can't handle its design anymore.
I'm out of it .You guys are a great community,best of luck!
Or you just had your favourite race lose and are salty about it. Sorry for the sad truth.
I was cheering for Snute ,as I do in every other tournaments,but I'm very happy for Neeb, he is such an humble and hardworking guy!
Unfortunately I don't care about balance whining, it's just the design of the game that I can't stand.
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On May 01 2017 07:56 raff100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2017 07:53 Karpfen wrote:On May 01 2017 07:38 raff100 wrote:
WCS Austin just remembered me why I can't enjoy watching this game since LotV came out.I've tried to support SC2 as I could,but this is not the game I used to love and I can't handle its design anymore.
I'm out of it .You guys are a great community,best of luck!
Or you just had your favourite race lose and are salty about it. Sorry for the sad truth. I was cheering for Snute ,as I do in every other tournaments,but I'm very happy for Neeb, he is such an humble and hardworking guy! Unfortunately I don't care about balance whining, it's just the design of the game that I can't stand.
thx for the spoilers.
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On May 01 2017 09:49 kajtarp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2017 07:56 raff100 wrote:On May 01 2017 07:53 Karpfen wrote:On May 01 2017 07:38 raff100 wrote:
WCS Austin just remembered me why I can't enjoy watching this game since LotV came out.I've tried to support SC2 as I could,but this is not the game I used to love and I can't handle its design anymore.
I'm out of it .You guys are a great community,best of luck!
Or you just had your favourite race lose and are salty about it. Sorry for the sad truth. I was cheering for Snute ,as I do in every other tournaments,but I'm very happy for Neeb, he is such an humble and hardworking guy! Unfortunately I don't care about balance whining, it's just the design of the game that I can't stand. thx for the spoilers.
well man the tournament is over lol
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The poll/title are a suggestion on its own. Is it more fun to watch? What if you had stated, Is it less fun to watch? What if you had stated was HOTS more fun to watch than LOTV? I firmly believe how you actually phrase the question will affect the poll numbers/how people will answer. It is a bias poll from the start that wants you to think that lotv is better to watch than hots due to the way it is phrased. For me, LOTV is crap. HOTS was OK. WOL was GREAT.
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I feel many considered the game more fun when nobody knew how to play properly yet, that's a typical trigger thread created to further antagonize people here 
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yes, because of the lack of swarmhosts
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On May 01 2017 12:53 aQuaSC wrote:I feel many considered the game more fun when nobody knew how to play properly yet, that's a typical trigger thread created to further antagonize people here
For me it had to do with being apart of the scene as a competitor during the WOL era so i naturally enjoyed watching the game more back then. I definitely see what you are saying though, there is definitely satisfaction in "discovering" or "figuring something out". The brain releases dopamine every time these types of things happen.
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I know this is that sort of thing that's guaranteed to set someone in the thread off, but I don't think that should stop me from sharing my personal opinion, so here goes:
As far as I'm concerned, the question in the OP doesn't matter, because what more people should be asking is, is SC2 more fun to watch than Brood War? For me it's a resounding no. I'm having so much more fun watching Brood War, and I feel it's important to mention, just to quash that fallacy that I see brought up so often that people only prefer Brood War due to nostalgia, that I was never into competitive BW back in its heyday - in fact, although I played it casually as a kid I didn't get into e-sports at all until Wings of Liberty. It's only now that I'm realizing what I was missing all that time and I kind of loathe SC2 for stealing and wasting the spotlight for years with such an inferior game design. There were some good moments in SC2s history (BoxeR vs MMA semifinals at MLG) but I can't help but think they would have been better if they'd just been in the better game.
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On May 01 2017 15:51 SmileZerg wrote:
I know this is that sort of thing that's guaranteed to set someone in the thread off, but I don't think that should stop me from sharing my personal opinion, so here goes:
As far as I'm concerned, the question in the OP doesn't matter, because what more people should be asking is, is SC2 more fun to watch than Brood War? For me it's a resounding no. I'm having so much more fun watching Brood War, and I feel it's important to mention, just to quash that fallacy that I see brought up so often that people only prefer Brood War due to nostalgia, that I was never into competitive BW back in its heyday - in fact, although I played it casually as a kid I didn't get into e-sports at all until Wings of Liberty. It's only now that I'm realizing what I was missing all that time and I kind of loathe SC2 for stealing and wasting the spotlight for years with such an inferior game design. There were some good moments in SC2s history (BoxeR vs MMA semifinals at MLG) but I can't help but think they would have been better if they'd just been in the better game.
You're pretty much preaching to the choir at this point. It's not an unpopular opinion among those who've watched both games that BW can be more entertaining. That doesn't mean that SC2 is completly worthless as a source of entertainment, and it's not pointless to discuss whether or not each expansion made the game better.
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"Look at the viewership"
This is not an argument, the game is 7 year old and and other games took the lead : LoL, csgo, hearthstone, overwatch. An rts game is much harder to renew than a MOBA and it's logical most people get bored with the game for some time. Moreover, sc2 is such a frustrating game, and need a lot of focus which can be tireing/boring for recreative players in the long run.
Overall, i think a lot of players still enjoy watching starcraft 2 games even if they don't play the game, because it remains so beautiful to watch.
The game is to me much better than HoTS and WoL. Early WoL was really good to play and watch, and it remains one of the best gaming experience I had.
After tasting LOTV, i feel that there's no comparison to HotS, it's much better in a lot of ways. The variety of openings and the mid game stages are overall more dynamic and interesting than in hots or wol which make it much more enjoyable to watch; and even to play, when you go back to wol or hots, everything looks so slow and predictable.
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United States1840 Posts
On May 01 2017 19:09 SSMMA wrote:
"Look at the viewership"
This is not an argument, the game is 7 year old and and other games took the lead : LoL, csgo, hearthstone, overwatch. An rts game is much harder to renew than a MOBA and it's logical most people get bored with the game for some time. Moreover, sc2 is such a frustrating game, and need a lot of focus which can be tireing/boring for recreative players in the long run.
Overall, i think a lot of players still enjoy watching starcraft 2 games even if they don't play the game, because it remains so beautiful to watch.
The game is to me much better than HoTS and WoL. Early WoL was really good to play and watch, and it remains one of the best gaming experience I had.
After tasting LOTV, i feel that there's no comparison to HotS, it's much better in a lot of ways. The variety of openings and the mid game stages are overall more dynamic and interesting than in hots or wol which make it much more enjoyable to watch; and even to play, when you go back to wol or hots, everything looks so slow and predictable.
Guess you didn't read the article where I statistically broke down the number of openers used (as well as frequency with which they were used) over the course of two full seasons of GSL and how they decreased dramatically in LotV.
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EPT
