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On April 11 2017 17:29 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2017 15:35 Ej_ wrote:
Zerg's only option in HotS ZvP was to all-in or fake an all-in so +2 blink doesn't kill you no matter what you do Really? Because, you know, there are leagues beyond masters. And I dare to say that this isn't true even for all masters players. This is the problem. Everyone here is talking about the game not being versatile or optimal for the top players. While you have huge playerbase bellow these players. And while this game is attractive for the top players and for the mechanical players it's way less attractive for the rest. I always played a game of scouting and reacting. Now I cannot do it, before I scout something the enemy is knocking on my base. I simply have to open safely and hope. I am not a pro player, I cannot study my enemy beforehand and do a guess based on his history of games on this map. I have to play "something" and I don't know the opponent. And i don't care about top players, I care about MY ENJOYMENT. And if these low league players are leaving then you are losing the base. From these low league players you get all the viewers. And these people are leaving, I can see it on the time of the search for a game and the quality of my opponents(way more diverse). BTW, an example to the "zerg has no options" "Mines killed templar openings" - sure, at the top level it did. At my level? No way, and I was diamond(this means there's more than 70 % of players under me where it's viable too). My opening was usually killed by a map design(e.g. the octopus map). I loved to play reactive games. I scouted and reacted. It was a game of cat & mouse. And if the enemy did some mind game and I lost - hell, it was entertaining. NOw? I have to decide before I can scout anything. FFS, sometimes I am defending cannon rush before I actually see the enemy base! (4 player maps) And I'm scouting before pylon!!! No, LotV killed the way how I play and many others. And defending top players strategies doesn't help ME.
Half of the things u wrote there were things in HotS aswell... Afaik we are getting rid of 4 player maps in next season no? Honestly as a caster and content creator for Czech I would like to talk to you in czech if possible.. 
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WoL was more fun to watch imo
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LotV did not fixed HotS (and WoL, to a lesser extent) problems, and introduced new ones.
(Don't sell me BLfestor thing - then why zergs did not win 100% everything, I should ask).
When bio cost less than mech and is doing better, or when medivac drops - already OP - have now also Liberators to do 85 damage support, you know one screwed it up. And these are not BLfestor costing a ton-o-gas(tm) things reserved for minute 30 or later. Just watching aLive dropping 4 medvs with 3 libs onto a heavily defended protoss secondary, stim-stim-stim-win.
Personally, I'm watching LotV 5% of the time comparing with HotS. Not that the pros are not playing well, far from it. It's just not there anymore.
I bet a good chunk switched to BW clashes.
I stopped breathing when JD dropped lurkers from two directions into FlaSh main and expo. Me and some 300k other viewers.
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Hots zvp was one of the worst mu of all time (probably tide with tvz at the end of wol and tvp during blink area). Phoenix was a stupid and pretty op unit in the economic model : seriously a harass unit whose you can do nothing to defend against a part spore and focus the weak ones? There were almost no micro involved from the defender, 99% of the harass depended only from the protoss multitask, what a frustrating bullshit, moreover it hardcountered mutas way too much and could even outmatch corrupters with the range so, yeah, it was a joke.
3 bases/blink put ahead against any zerg build if the toss did not blunder hence the great success of "monobuild lilbow" and a nightmare to play against, the end of hots was really not interesting and I still wonder how sOs managed to lose 3 games against a zerg in the blizzcon final.
Finally after the sh nerf, it became impossible to stop the skytoss with the tempest who slowly destroyes everything why the ht/archon/vr zones out.
All in all, the less bullshit protoss play was the 2bases one, that's tell a lot how terrible the mu was for me. Today, war prism are super frustrating, adept shading too and overall, the mu is not super enjoyable but it is still miles ahead the disaster it was on hots.
However, even if at the end of hots, mech play was awful too bit overal, 4m agst mlb with some transition (thors/ultra/bl) was the best meta ever on sc2. A bit better than today despite the compo diversity and way better than at the beginning of lotv.
zvz was okaysh but I prefer the current one.
Finally the new tools that zerg must use for micro are pretty bads too, ravagers bile, parasite bombs, a lot of fungal/ neural make that positionning and mouse micro seem to have less impact than "click on the spell' one".
It' s a bit hard to judge because outside Stephano, Taeja and Life were my favorites players and they do not play on lotv so it is a bit hard to judge unbiaised but from a zerg perspective, it is :
Lotv zvp>>>>>>> hots zvp, lotv zvt<<hots zvt, lotv zvz>hots zvz.
Terran is a bit worse on lotv, protoss is still frustrating as hell in any mu but is way way better right now.
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seems its way more common for lower leagues to say hots or wol was better
also seems these same people dont play much anyway
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PvT: no
Every other matchup: yes
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On April 13 2017 04:42 EZcheezyy wrote:
seems its way more common for lower leagues to say hots or wol was better
also seems these same people dont play much anyway
If they stopped playing because of LotV, isn't that a pretty clear indicator that they did indeed enjoy HotS or WoL more...?
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On April 13 2017 05:21 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2017 04:42 EZcheezyy wrote:
seems its way more common for lower leagues to say hots or wol was better
also seems these same people dont play much anyway If they stopped playing because of LotV, isn't that a pretty clear indicator that they did indeed enjoy HotS or WoL more...?
thats not what i meant. i meant they never played much in the first place, including hots and wol
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On April 13 2017 04:42 EZcheezyy wrote:
seems its way more common for lower leagues to say hots or wol was better
also seems these same people dont play much anyway
Not sure about that, In my case I was a top master-lowgm player in EU and I enjoyed HOTS way more and the same happened for a lot of friends I knew. I don´t think that you can be 100% sure of most high level players preferring LOTV, would love to see the stats on it though.
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On April 11 2017 18:42 BriD wrote:
WoL was more fun to watch imo
WoL is better than the other two together.
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BW > WoL > LotV > HotS imho
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Apart from adpets is LotV the best of all SC2 iterations to me.
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If they stopped playing because of LotV, isn't that a pretty clear indicator that they did indeed enjoy HotS or WoL more...?
That's why to me TL is a bit irrelevant, because the poll count 550 vote so far which isn't a lot, and most of the player i know that stopped the game never came on TL or the bnet forum.
I'm not saying lotv was better or worse than hots, i already gave my point of view on this, but im saying whatever the outcome of this poll is, it will not be representative.
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I think LotV is definitely more exciting to watch but HotS was more fun to play for sure.
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I'm loving LotV as a whole. As a terran, I'm on the edge about TvP, but I like TvT and TvZ now. As a protoss, I sorely miss the feel of HotS protoss. And I don't play zerg 8)
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Game play wise yes but I'll never has as much fun watching sc2 as did in the era of our King Of Wings
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HotS was more fun to play, but LotV is more fun to watch.
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United States1960 Posts
Good games are fun to watch. There were more good games in HotS.
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I wouldn't be the right person to talk about execution since I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but at least conceptually I must be one of the few people who likes the idea of the LotV units. The disruptor, ravager, lurker, and liberator are all positional type units similar to the siege tank in that they deal a high enough amount of damage that it makes more sense to avoid them than soak their hits. At least in terms of watching, I love the ebb and flow of battles with those units, where it feels like the armies move like ocean waves, like ravagers will throw some shots down and the opponent moves back, then the opponent comes forward again after the shots, or the same with disruptors. Lurker/liberator/siege tank slow pushes that involve going around them or surrounding them or isolating them are also really great. Swarm hosts should have done this too, but they never quite worked. It feels like one of my favorite parts of watching TvT in WoL was brought to all of the races in LotV through those units. ZvZ and PvP are so much more watchable in LotV than they were in the other two just because of ravagers and disruptors.
As far as HotS vs LotV, I stopped watching in HotS and came back for LotV. I find it way more watchable. Even in WoL, there were some matches, like ZvZ, that I would refuse to watch even if I liked the players, and other matches where I would only watch if I liked the players, but in LotV I like watching most pro matches even if I'm not super interested in the players. Whether it plays that way or not, it feels much more dynamic. Also, having watched for a few months now, I still feel like I'm getting surprised by the way games turn out. Not that their aren't blow outs, but I have seen a fair few games where it seems like one person has a definite advantage but it goes back and forth a ton without a real winner. I've read some people upthread saying their are no comebacks in LotV, but that hasn't been my experience watching it. That Taeja/Zest series from the 2016 GSL was one of the most exciting games I've ever seen in SC2. Or the Maru/Innovation Proxy vs Proxy match recently went back and forth a ton and felt like it was played on a razor's edge.
As far as pure numbers, I think it's a fair point that WoL had way higher numbers than LotV, but there was also less competition. There are a ton of eSports options now that weren't around back then. It's not just SC2 being around for a while and it getting old for some people or perhaps people being turned off by the new game, it's just also way more competitive for time. I want to watch Rocket League, Heroes of the Storm, SC2, Overwatch, and those are just the games I play. Even if we ignore the subjective feelings around it, it's not a fair comparison for numbers no matter how you look at it just because the environment of eSports is so different now than it was when WoL came out. Context is king.
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EPT
