EPTIs LotV more fun to watch than HotS? - Page 12
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
| ||
|
MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
| ||
|
Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On April 16 2017 16:28 PtitDrogo wrote: This whole thread could be renamed "DAE have Selective memory ?" Or, it could be renamed to "Does any other current pro gamer think LotV is the best?". I suggest you keep playing the game and let people express their opinion. You're nobody to tell people if they should like any of the three versions of StarCraft 2. It's a thread about opinions. | ||
|
KrOjah
United Kingdom68 Posts
On April 16 2017 07:32 Poopi wrote: RTS won't ever be able to compete with such games. It's not a matter of how good the game is but how unpopular its genre is. It wasn't that long ago when RTS would usually have the premiere game stage at most major gaming events between BW, WC3 and for a little while Sc2. We are not going back to the dark ages here, 5 years ago or so. I really just think we need some innovation and a couple of great games to revitalise the genre. | ||
|
nanaoei
3358 Posts
On April 16 2017 16:04 eviltomahawk wrote: That free natural expansion is as much at the fault of the community as at the fault of Blizzard, if not more. Easy natural expansions and in-base expansions had been a thing on community maps before Blizzard began to embrace them more in response. People were tired of so many cheesy one-base games on crappy Blizzard maps that easier expansions were pushed by community maps. i think the expansion thing is pretty interesting. I don't particularly like that there's few units that can siege the first expansion that is going up. in and around that time, the game is focused around something very different whether it be medevac w/ mine drop, queens for defending, or pylon cannon with an oracle opening. everything comes out very quickly or timely to help you defend. if I can be allowed to use this thread to share my opinion on what has bothered me about the game, it is just the medivac boost that changes the game dramatically. it feels good for the player, but it also is a mechanic that happens at a blistering speed. very few units on their own can catch up or hope to deal with it. these units in a standing army don't normally stand a chance, nor do they serve a specific purpose until hitting a heavy mass. this is the one thing in WoL that I enjoyed more than all other iterations. drops were equally important, but there was a very specific pace to it that all spectators of the game could enjoy. it is a sort of strategy that is both punishing and challenging for its user, and also very simple in concept the units come out one at a time, and the vehicle has to take a very predictable route. all that counts is timing and the sense for when it is going to happen. understanding when and where you are weakest is a rewarding experience in starcraft because you then learn how to respond and deflect. something like medevac boost removes a lot of that potential just because of the speed at which it flies to its destination. in TvZ that is a very touchy thing because many terran (self included) rely on the medevac control (with boost) to tie up an opponent and wear them out thin, as retreating normally on no-boost medivacs is hopeful at best. it has been a real hassle to balance defender's advantage with the units being involved. it is quite easy to work around most static defense unless a heavy sim city is devoted and when that happens, it is something else entirely. it's more than an expansion or an objective you must defend. it is your entire lifeline that must continually be bolstered and defended unless you are placing pressure to alleviate your own. however, the solution for the player has almost always been to use units in the defense that will be a part of the main army. because the game is so efficient I don't blame the game nor the players. it's just a style where you get quick and very efficient damage, before winning the game by walking across the map. the counterplay is just more difficult for regular players to grasp as a result, and scouting for such a fast game can be a big gamble. | ||
|
Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
On April 16 2017 17:24 Shield wrote: Or, it could be renamed to "Does any other current pro gamer think LotV is the best?". I suggest you keep playing the game and let people express their opinion. You're nobody to tell people if they should like any of the three versions of StarCraft 2. It's a thread about opinions. hahahaha what? He didn't say that he was in a better position to say anything above others. Get your shit together man. He simply pointed out that apparently some people in here forget some (presumably ugly) parts of the previous titles. Or maybe they never even experienced them? | ||
|
Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On April 16 2017 19:19 Aunvilgodess wrote: hahahaha what? He didn't say that he was in a better position to say anything above others. Get your shit together man. He simply pointed out that apparently some people in here forget some (presumably ugly) parts of the previous titles. Or maybe they never even experienced them? His post is definitely vague enough that you can interpret it that older expansions were worse or mostly worse and people were selectively forgetting that. It's not my fault he can't put in enough effort to explain himself in a clear way. In the past, TL was looking down on one-liners. | ||
|
Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
On April 16 2017 20:11 Shield wrote: His post is definitely vague enough that you can interpret it that older expansions were worse or mostly worse and people were selectively forgetting that. It's not my fault he can't put in enough effort to explain himself in a clear way. Oh I think its quite obvious that that is what he means, and I wholeheartedly agree. To me the notion of WoL being better than LotV is absurd. But anyway, he nowhere said that his opinion is more important or trying to to stop others of voicing their opinions. | ||
|
Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On April 16 2017 20:14 Aunvilgodess wrote: he nowhere said that his opinion ... trying to to stop others of voicing their opinions. I'm not sure about that part. His topic suggestion implies exactly that - it's a bit too much to cut off any criticism about LotV. Again, I don't expect current pro gamers to say anything else. They depend on LotV scene for their income. It's like Artosis and Tasteless saying that StarCraft 2 is the best game ever, yet they go and cast BW. While it doesn't contradict their statement necessarily, you can see that StarCraft 2 professionals say what's appropriate in their current situation which isn't always the truth. Either way, it's clear that a lot of people prefer WoL over LotV, HotS over LotV and LotV over HotS. I don't think it's fair to discard either group of these people easily. | ||
|
LastWish
2015 Posts
The games where finally tactical and resembled BW map tactics for a bit. The problem was just that in PvZ lategame protoss didn't have much options in split map situations, while zerg could turtle up with mass static defence, fungaling and abducting everything. I still think that there where other options to make swarm hosts more managable like: - make locusts weaker - make a window between locust spawn bigger for attack to happen - make swarmhost cooldown on hold while not burrowed - make some protoss unit changes to address lategame better - add some aoe unit for protoss I still hate fungal - which if you chain can lead to complete destruction of a clumped air force. It should have been some ground only ability or a creep tumor like thing that would e.g. slow down units in area. Abduct would be better as a skill shot(with lower cost or sth) where you would need to aim for a direction and you would grab first enemy unit that it touches. Mothership/Mothership core = not a fan of a super-unit. Feedback vs snipe is bad concept which often leads to binary result situations. For LotV changes I like changes to immortals, tanks(after removing the silly drop) and ravagers, disruptors are quite nice new units. Cyclone is really uncreative. Adepts are just too crazy for harassment leaving very small room for zerg oppenings. Liberator would have maybe been okay if the primary use wouldn't be "liberation" of enemy workers. Yeah I feel like in general WoL, HotS and LotV all have they charms, however the old charms where never transitioned into the new product making it feel like it was 3 completely different games. | ||
|
XenoX101
Australia729 Posts
It is easy to see why they went with this approach. SC2 is inherently flawed in giving too much macroing power to the player in the form of MBS, unlimited unit selection, perfect unit pathing and auto-harvest, removing the need for much of the player's attention. The obvious solution then is to give the player more things to do in the micro department. The problem is this makes it a completely different game, by removing the balance between managing your bases and managing your army. All your attention now has to be centered around your units, and how well you fire that next disruptor shot or place your liberators. Base management is no longer a top priority. Apart from making the game more one-dimensional, this removes part of the surprise of the game when someone is able to win not through any grand feat of micro, but through well-crafted and well-executed timing attacks against their opponent. Or win through the brute force approach of greedy macro play. Or by simply maneuvering their units in clever ways that manage to abuse map idiosyncrasies, without the need for perfect skill shots. I haven't followed much of LotV admittedly (for the reasons above and more), but I would bet we will see far more micro-oriented builds in the future centred around units such as the disruptor, ravager, and liberator. Players will realise that with this many spellcaster in the game the best tactic is to try and abuse them. I hope this to be the case, since this would be the best chance at Blizzard doing something about this. Whether that means removing certain spellcasters, or nerfing them such that they become very situational rather than dominant units. In any case, after all the great ideas they've introduced to the game, it seems sensible for them to take a step back and trim the game back to its key disciplines. | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On April 16 2017 23:12 XenoX101 wrote:It is easy to see why they went with this approach. SC2 is inherently flawed in giving too much macroing power to the player in the form of MBS, unlimited unit selection, perfect unit pathing and auto-harvest, removing the need for much of the player's attention. The obvious solution then is to give the player more things to do in the micro department. Which is precisely why I suggest we drastically increase the production pace of the game. To me, that is the simplest way to inject skill and differentiation back into macro and early game micro. Make actually devoting 100% of your clicks and attention to macro more meaningful again. Off the top of my head the way to do this is to make production cycles tighter. Instead of a production cycle every X seconds, have a production cycle every X/3 seconds. At minimum, to explore this would be to set combat unit costs and combat unit build times to 33%. This also makes it so more units are on the field more often, and controlling average-sized armies will be more skillful since the average size of battles increases to the point where the pathing, collision, and highly differentiated micro come into play. I anticipate that with much larger armies, terrible terrible damage could create issues so I would also investigate setting unit DPS to 66%. Don't wait 20 minutes for deathball armies to clash for 3 seconds and game over. Instead, have deathball armies clashing for 5-7 seconds all game and then possibly a super-mega-epic-deathball fight at the end. Even in sc2, pathing concerns come into play for micro in large scale battles. The earlier and more often you have these, the more chance there is for skill differentiation, similar to how brood war offers it greatly all game. | ||
|
ejozl
Denmark3489 Posts
On April 16 2017 19:11 nanaoei wrote: i think the expansion thing is pretty interesting. I don't particularly like that there's few units that can siege the first expansion that is going up. in and around that time, the game is focused around something very different whether it be medevac w/ mine drop, queens for defending, or pylon cannon with an oracle opening. everything comes out very quickly or timely to help you defend. if I can be allowed to use this thread to share my opinion on what has bothered me about the game, it is just the medivac boost that changes the game dramatically. it feels good for the player, but it also is a mechanic that happens at a blistering speed. very few units on their own can catch up or hope to deal with it. these units in a standing army don't normally stand a chance, nor do they serve a specific purpose until hitting a heavy mass. this is the one thing in WoL that I enjoyed more than all other iterations. drops were equally important, but there was a very specific pace to it that all spectators of the game could enjoy. it is a sort of strategy that is both punishing and challenging for its user, and also very simple in concept the units come out one at a time, and the vehicle has to take a very predictable route. all that counts is timing and the sense for when it is going to happen. understanding when and where you are weakest is a rewarding experience in starcraft because you then learn how to respond and deflect. something like medevac boost removes a lot of that potential just because of the speed at which it flies to its destination. in TvZ that is a very touchy thing because many terran (self included) rely on the medevac control (with boost) to tie up an opponent and wear them out thin, as retreating normally on no-boost medivacs is hopeful at best. it has been a real hassle to balance defender's advantage with the units being involved. it is quite easy to work around most static defense unless a heavy sim city is devoted and when that happens, it is something else entirely. it's more than an expansion or an objective you must defend. it is your entire lifeline that must continually be bolstered and defended unless you are placing pressure to alleviate your own. however, the solution for the player has almost always been to use units in the defense that will be a part of the main army. because the game is so efficient I don't blame the game nor the players. it's just a style where you get quick and very efficient damage, before winning the game by walking across the map. the counterplay is just more difficult for regular players to grasp as a result, and scouting for such a fast game can be a big gamble. Agreed. The more speed equals higher skill ceiling approach has severely messed up the pacing of the game and is what can be so frustrating for so many players. The super high speed air units also heavily reduce most of the features map makers can use to change up the battlefield. Medivacs being the worst offender, since it basically makes your entire army airbourne. | ||
|
Hannibaal
41 Posts
| ||
Poopi
France12911 Posts
On April 16 2017 16:52 MockHamill wrote: If you add all the votes from people that have left the game it would be 90/10 in favor of HOTS (or WOL). HotS was so horrible it wasn't even funny. There was this unit that got removed, there was the hellbat shitfest, the regular hour long swarm host games, the forever 3 bases 20mn long games, the blink allins games.... WoL maybe depending on which patch but it became an horrible game as well. | ||
|
nanaoei
3358 Posts
On April 18 2017 17:10 ejozl wrote: Agreed. The more speed equals higher skill ceiling approach has severely messed up the pacing of the game and is what can be so frustrating for so many players. The super high speed air units also heavily reduce most of the features map makers can use to change up the battlefield. Medivacs being the worst offender, since it basically makes your entire army airbourne. very good point, I keep forgetting about maps, but I wish we had gotten to see more examples of interesting ones. | ||
|
LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
| ||
|
raff100
498 Posts
I'm out of it .You guys are a great community,best of luck! | ||
|
MrSwede
3 Posts
On May 01 2017 07:38 raff100 wrote: WCS Austin just remembered me why I can't enjoy watching this game since LotV came out.I've tried to support SC2 as I could,but this is not the game I used to love and I can't handle its design anymore. I'm out of it .You guys are a great community,best of luck! Well fortunately WCS Austin reminded me of why I came back to this game again after a break during hots. | ||
|
Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On May 01 2017 07:38 raff100 wrote: WCS Austin just remembered me why I can't enjoy watching this game since LotV came out.I've tried to support SC2 as I could,but this is not the game I used to love and I can't handle its design anymore. I'm out of it .You guys are a great community,best of luck! Or you just had your favourite race lose and are salty about it. Sorry for the sad truth. | ||
| ||
