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On April 10 2017 07:17 Aunvilgodess wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 02:54 StarscreamG1 wrote:
mass banelings vs everything, mass marines vs everything, mass adepts vs everything. There are a lot of nonsense builds. My wet dream is that SC2 could become a Starbow kind of game. With the mechanics of SC2 but the fundamentals of SC1. Of those only one is KINDA a thing. Adept Phoenix is a 2 unit comp that is only temporarily viable. That is absolutely not unprecedented in SC2 history and never has there been such a ridiculously exaggerated debate about it. Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 04:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Surprised at this. HotS in its first year was amazing and blew LotV's first year out of the water. If you compare current LotV to HotS in 2015 then it's a bit closer and I might agree slightly with these poll results.
LotV's main downfall is it has done nothing to make the game any less unforgiving (might even be worse), it feels like an arms race for higher tech units where it's hard to digest each stage of the game, and perhaps worst of all is it feels like the strategic depth is at an all-time low.
WoL >> HotS >= LotV I'd say I am surprised you say something like that... IMO WoL is just worse in almost every regard and people are just having nostalgia. Did you forget what the last year of WoL looked like? I do agree that HotS was better in some aspects, but definitely not overwhelmingly so. PvP is way better in LotV. PvZ was absolute cancer because of 2 base all-ins and PvZ alone is the reason LotV is better for me. Additionally there is neither turtle mech nor swarmhosts. The only thing that was better in early HotS was 4M vs Lingblingmuta and apparently people didn't apprecciate the best thing that ever happened in the game.
WoL before the Queen buff was in a really good place for TvZ. Zergs couldn't just greed up to hive tech without making roaches to push out versus hellions. After the queen buff, mass queen into brood/infestor meta took over. G fucking G for TvZ.
TvT in WoL and HotS > TvT in LotV. The reason I stuck with Terran was because I found other mirror matchups horrendous to play. The beauty of Terran design shone through in the mirror matchup.
As a Terran, WoL will always be the best. And I started playing SC2 seriously AFTER the blue-flame hellion nerf, so it's not because of the power of cheese.
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On April 10 2017 09:17 TentativePanda wrote:
Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much. And that's because as a zerg player I hate how terran and protoss both have insanely annoying harass options that don't set back their builds whatsoever and sometimes are impossible to take no damage from. The harass is waaay too strong for those races. But I love the way the games generally play out.
As a Zerg in WoL it felt like we had way more options as openers and in the midgame, pretty much every tech path was useful, and other races actually had to put in effort to scout.
Not every game was just defending harrasment in the midgame, which is the most frustrating thing in LoTV.
Also ZvZ was a lot less dumb back in the day, with also every tech path being viable.
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I think this is something that is purely subjective.
But based on the only real objective measure, popularity, LOTV loses to HOTS which loses to WOL. In other words, how broad of a spectrum of people does the game appeal to? LOTV appeals to the smallest segment of the three titles.
That happens to coincide with my experience. WOL could be played in so many different ways strategically, thus it appealed to so many people, while LOTV is a watered down game where strategy takes a backseat to mechanics, which appeals to people who really enjoy watching/executing great mechanics. That idea was discussed at length in the Eulogy of the Six Pool article.
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On April 09 2017 23:38 raff100 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2017 23:37 DieuCure wrote:
+ don't take a poll like this too seriously, unhappy people always do more noise.
Hots was just a wol ++ , cad slow with lack of skillcap. I don't think so,cause most part of unhappy people aren't playing the game anymore. Playerbase numbers are the first indicator of how the players are reacting to the product
Not even close man. Look at your average LR thread, twitch chat, youtube comment section and you will find nothing but whine, at least in comparison to balance happiness. The closest thing we get to people agreeing the game is in a relatively good state is when you see tournament qualifier balance or PTR/patch note threads. Otherwise whine far out weighs anyone who pops in to say.. hey doesn't the game seem cool and balanced now.
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On April 10 2017 01:38 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 01:11 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 10 2017 01:02 Luolis wrote:On April 10 2017 00:53 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 10 2017 00:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 10 2017 00:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
I bet that "NO" voters never played this game srsly
LotV indeed much better both to play and watch in comparison to WoL/Hots personally, i agree. my 40 apm part time player friends continue to play WoL 2v2s because LotV is too complicated. sure they do, cause being so slow is not a good thing in RTS, at this point a single oracle is a big deal
Played both Lotv and Hots semi-seriously, i enjoyed hots much much more than Lotv.
and the reason why is that? Most of the things tbh, i liked old worker start/mineral thing more, i dislike most of the new units and changes to old units. I feel like the old pace of wol/hots was perfect for SC2 and think that lotv is bit too much of an adhdfest at times. Combine that with stuff like liberators or adepts, and a perfect mix of motivation losing is born. Okay, I get it. But it amazes me cause u are allowing shitbuilds like 6 pool and turtle mech/swarmhost 3 base happening due to different worker/minerals balance. 3 hours games? We had a few on pro level with rematches even, it was a wastement of time which follows it was bad. Yes, most of LotV units are powerful, but overall it has more pluses in terms of balances and timewise. LotV benefits the fastest arguably. I think hots cheeses had an important part in the game. There was actually that "eulogy for the six pool"-article which summarized alot of my thoughts aswell. I never said HotS was perfect, but for me it was better than lotv. Turtle mech/swarmhost shit didn't happen THAT often. I also liked the games lasting more a bit often.
Are you out of your mind? Ppl were not addending tournaments and viewers were super low at the 2nd period of hots before lotv because this was the thing every single game which went from 3+ bases... unless koreans put some bio vs ling bane muta... or when protoss did not immortal all in or some version of 7 gate...
Also don't get tricked ppl these complaining ppl are the same one calling for change when LoTV was announced... it's the kind of ppl that will always find something wrong on anything because it's not change or style they personally like...
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On April 10 2017 15:47 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2017 23:38 raff100 wrote:On April 09 2017 23:37 DieuCure wrote:
+ don't take a poll like this too seriously, unhappy people always do more noise.
Hots was just a wol ++ , cad slow with lack of skillcap. I don't think so,cause most part of unhappy people aren't playing the game anymore. Playerbase numbers are the first indicator of how the players are reacting to the product Not even close man. Look at your average LR thread, twitch chat, youtube comment section and you will find nothing but whine, at least in comparison to balance happiness. The closest thing we get to people agreeing the game is in a relatively good state is when you see tournament qualifier balance or PTR/patch note threads. Otherwise whine far out weighs anyone who pops in to say.. hey doesn't the game seem cool and balanced now.
This was a case since 2013 when i joined the community it was exacly the same....
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On April 10 2017 14:38 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 09:17 TentativePanda wrote:
Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much. And that's because as a zerg player I hate how terran and protoss both have insanely annoying harass options that don't set back their builds whatsoever and sometimes are impossible to take no damage from. The harass is waaay too strong for those races. But I love the way the games generally play out. As a Zerg in WoL it felt like we had way more options as openers and in the midgame, pretty much every tech path was useful, and other races actually had to put in effort to scout. Not every game was just defending harrasment in the midgame, which is the most frustrating thing in LoTV. Also ZvZ was a lot less dumb back in the day, with also every tech path being viable.
What exacly you saw except mutas and roaches ?? because zvz was muta fest or roach fest in hots..
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I actually full stopped watching SC2 during HotS, because of the extremely long and boring deathball/mech/swarmhosts games.
I enjoy watching LotV when I do, so it's a clear yes for me.
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On April 10 2017 16:08 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 14:38 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On April 10 2017 09:17 TentativePanda wrote:
Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much. And that's because as a zerg player I hate how terran and protoss both have insanely annoying harass options that don't set back their builds whatsoever and sometimes are impossible to take no damage from. The harass is waaay too strong for those races. But I love the way the games generally play out. As a Zerg in WoL it felt like we had way more options as openers and in the midgame, pretty much every tech path was useful, and other races actually had to put in effort to scout. Not every game was just defending harrasment in the midgame, which is the most frustrating thing in LoTV. Also ZvZ was a lot less dumb back in the day, with also every tech path being viable. What exacly you saw except mutas and roaches ?? because zvz was muta fest or roach fest in hots..
WoL ZvZ had a lot of that as well, but the key distinguishing factor was the infestor (which also allowed for the occasional ling/infestor comp as well). While the infestor was breaking TvZ and PvZ, I would say it added a lot to ZvZ. Sure the IT spam engagements were hideous to look at but the infestor also added more comeback potential in a mu that desperately needed it.
You couldn't just waltz in as easily for the win if you had the lead in a game where both players have infestors out for fear of getting chain fungaled to death. Additionally, you had burrowed infestor hit squads that could easily wipe out a mining base or snipe other infestors to try to come back in the game.
Prime example is what Leenock once did to DRG in one of the sickest plays I've ever seen:
+ Show Spoiler +
Also WoL ZvZ had a lot more drawn out ling/bane fights to open the game which was very exciting to watch.
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On April 10 2017 16:08 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 14:38 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On April 10 2017 09:17 TentativePanda wrote:
Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much. And that's because as a zerg player I hate how terran and protoss both have insanely annoying harass options that don't set back their builds whatsoever and sometimes are impossible to take no damage from. The harass is waaay too strong for those races. But I love the way the games generally play out. As a Zerg in WoL it felt like we had way more options as openers and in the midgame, pretty much every tech path was useful, and other races actually had to put in effort to scout. Not every game was just defending harrasment in the midgame, which is the most frustrating thing in LoTV. Also ZvZ was a lot less dumb back in the day, with also every tech path being viable. What exacly you saw except mutas and roaches ?? because zvz was muta fest or roach fest in hots..
Was talking about WoL, but anyhow ZvZ in LoTV in the midgame is largely the same as HoTS but the early game is a lot more coinflippy.
In WoL ling styles were actually pretty viable, and you saw more diverse comps in the midgame and a lot less stale lategame without the lurker and viper.
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Of course it's better to watch and play.
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LotV>WoL>HotS. HotS introduced insane worker harassment which suddenly can just end games. The only difference is that in HotS the death timer was a lot longer than the current one. In LotV it's a much better fast paced, back and forth game. With the strong possibility of come backs, due to high risk, high reward utilities added. An obvious example of this is the Disruptor. I think if there was added a little extra defenders advantage, or if they tuned down the harassment abilities from units such as Oracles, LotV would far outshine WoL as there wouldn't be any negative aspect when comparing LotV to WoL.
Imagine if every race had the Mothership Core and had MULE's to some extend, we would be able to see a lot more epic come backs, even though there are insane worker harassment units.
So in short:
1) Games end too abruptly
2) I'm just not satisfied with the length of broadcasts atm. This can either be solved by in-game solutions, like removing abrupt endings, or by simply making more bo3's into bo5's, make some bo5's into bo7 and possibly having some bo9 finals.
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Game is way better, but way higher skill cap now.
My 220 APM is not nearly as much as it used to be as a Terran player and especially in TvZ.
Now my lack of micro skills really decides many more games.
The game is good, but suites players with slightly different skill sets.
That's something I'm okay with.
As for the the Terran Match-ups.
TvT isn't all that much different mid and late game, but the transition to mid game is super hard to get a handle on for me. New units, new openings. Nothing special otherwise.
TvP is the same as always. Just less variability in openings. Everything is light harass until 3rd base is taken. In my opinion the balance of the match-up relies too heavily on the liberator, but I like it the way it is to.
TvZ is different. Not necessarily because of balance, but because every zerg is able to make so many more units than in the past (they are better at macro) Late game is frustrating, using ghost is very frustrating. Dealing with new corrupter ultra broodlord viper takes alot more to deal with than the old brood lord infestor. Parasitic bomb ruins so many of my games.
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I found WoL best. HotS made a mess of the game by introducing new units that were not good. LotV basically just went to fix the mess HotS made while still being inferior to WoL.
WoL just needed a nerf to BL and a buff to Hydra to compensate, it didn't need 10 more new units each with new active abilities.
A fix to way economy works in Sc2 could have also be done (by making workers become less effective sooner so to force more bases) instead of the shit way they did it in LotV.
Ah well, maybe BW Remaster manages to become popular with wider crowd and we can forget about shitty sc2.
User was warned for this post
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On April 10 2017 09:17 TentativePanda wrote:
Love all the people saying WoL was the best. Lol do you think you're cool for saying that? It was very obviously not. LotV for me is better than HotS but not by much. And that's because as a zerg player I hate how terran and protoss both have insanely annoying harass options that don't set back their builds whatsoever and sometimes are impossible to take no damage from. The harass is waaay too strong for those races. But I love the way the games generally play out.
I still think WoL >= LotV > HotS. WoL just didn't have crazy speed mutas, speed medivacs, widow mine drops, oracle (insane dps vs workers), dt blink (stupid concept even though it's not a problem) and swarm hosts. For this reason, WoL is much better than HotS. Unfortunately, WoL had broodlords/infestors but that's still okay compared to described issues.
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LotV meta but only with WoL units would be the best sc2 game.
The reasons are obvious. Everyone has told the reasons, 99% are about the units. We don't need HotS and LotV units.
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I liked watching and playing WoL better. Hots I could take a little, Lotv completely killed the game for me
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On April 10 2017 14:43 BronzeKnee wrote:
I think this is something that is purely subjective.
But based on the only real objective measure, popularity, LOTV loses to HOTS which loses to WOL. In other words, how broad of a spectrum of people does the game appeal to? LOTV appeals to the smallest segment of the three titles.
That happens to coincide with my experience. WOL could be played in so many different ways strategically, thus it appealed to so many people, while LOTV is a watered down game where strategy takes a backseat to mechanics, which appeals to people who really enjoy watching/executing great mechanics. That idea was discussed at length in the Eulogy of the Six Pool article.
I disagree. In reality, it is the opposite of what you are saying. Mechanics, since the release of SC2 and transition from Brood War, has taken the backseat to strategy. Brood War's mechanics were much simpler than SC2's, but there were more things to do in Brood War. The prioritization of which mechanical tasks to perform is what made the strategy so interesting in Brood War. SC2 in comparison has such a high priority on strategy (unit composition, worker harass, spells/abilities etc.) that simple mechanics hardly exist. People sometimes say that SC2 is better for all these mechanical qualities of life, but the viewership/interest decline that has occurred since before the HOTS release says otherwise.
This is why so many Warcraft 3 pros made the transition to SC2 easier than Brood War pros. Warcraft 3 and SC2 are similar in the type of gameplay they emphasize. That is, heavy micro (which is part of mechanics, but more so strategy because it involves planning out unit positioning), unit composition in fights, set it and forget economies, worker harass and almost every unit have a spell or ability.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
I love those posts saying that LotV is obviously better and those who cannot see it are just too stupid to understand.
Yup, LotV is not for noobs, I agree. That's why the game population is so huge and the stream numbers are so big.
I selected no. IMO LotV is better to watch than HotS, but I want to play the game, not watch it. And if I am not playing, I'm not watching.
I am a person who loves Starcraft and is not watching it. Is this a loss for the scene? I don't know, maybe for people like me Blizzard receives 2 new players who are not noobs and do understand the game. Not my business, now I am watching and paying a subscription to another company. A loss for Blizzard is a gain for another.
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The game really lost quality with the queen patch back in WoL mid 2012. HotS was merely a continuation of that mindset, but I do find LotV better to watch (although not having played it seriously myself).
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EPT
