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On January 08 2017 08:41 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2017 04:22 jamella wrote:
They are actually faster than banshees with the speed upgrade. It gets even worse with nydus. According to liquipedia Swarm host speed:4.13 Banshee upgrade increases the movement speed of Banshees from 3.85 to 5.25. And btw: hellion speed:5.95 Back your facts before throwing them in a balance thread please
Swarmhosts: 4.13
Swarmhosts on creep: 4.13 x 1.30 = 5.369
Banshee with speed: 5.25 < 5.369
So off creep you need speed banshees, there is nothing else.
On Creep you just chase them a little with hit and run and then run into AA.
And btw: Why are you mentioning Hellions? They do not kill SH. Not at all.
Complete your facts before throwing them into a balance thread please.
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I didnt mention on creep speed because I assume there is no creep near the Terran base where SHs are located to harras the terran and I mentioned hellions since they are the "map presence" unit of mech playstyle
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On January 08 2017 09:42 Argonauta wrote:
I didnt mention on creep speed because I assume there is no creep near the Terran base where SHs are located to harras the terran and I mentioned hellions since they are the "map presence" unit of mech playstyle
Well most of the time they do have creep outside the edges of your main, Daybreak is a good example. If not, you just use a nydus instead so they can teleport.
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Happened to watch 2 avilo's game in a row against SH on OG yesterday.
I was not impressed by the opening (reaper into banshee hellion) was not impressed by map control and SH defense either. But most of all passivity is what kills him. There are other ways to play mech.
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You are talking like nydus doesnt cost any money and its instant but maybe you are confused because you are describing BC teleport, not nydus play.
Besides.... Are you telling that there is creep outsides the edges of the Terran main base in Daybreak? I just WTFed hard there
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years ago on state of the game, incontrol and idra mocked and ridiculed avilo because he rightfully pointed out how stupid the queen range patch was and how it was going to ruin the game. incontrol and idra thought they were so good and so much smarter than avilo. turns out as usual they had no idea wtf they were talking about. idra was especially bad, he had a way worse attitude and an inflated ego, despite having no actual results to back up his shit talking.
so what ended up happening? the queen range patch ended up ruining the game. gglord winfestor ruined everything. it was so bad foreign zerg (and zerg ONLY) were beating top tier korean terrans. and idra who had whined how weak zerg were, STILL COULDNT WIN ANYTHING. LOL. What a joke. avilo was a genius and idra/incontrol looked like idiots. are all these avilo haters in this thread idra fans who cant stand the thought that idra got embarrassed all those years ago and finally forced off EG for his terrible attitude toward other people (telling them to die of cancer)? avilo gonna look like a genius again.
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On January 08 2017 10:59 Argonauta wrote:
You are talking like nydus doesnt cost any money and its instant but maybe you are confused because you are describing BC teleport, not nydus play.
Besides.... Are you telling that there is creep outsides the edges of the Terran main base in Daybreak? I just WTFed hard there
Well since the SH itself is ridiculously cheap it doesn't really matter. It takes 50 seconds to get up and running on only lair tech.
http://i.imgur.com/0ZdwIeJ.jpg
You don't even need more than 2 bases, since you get free units every 43s and can defend with spines/spores:
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I guess people enjoy watching 16 marine drop every single tvz for a year straight.
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Yes that terran player is lacking map presence since he is lettng the creep go that far still I dont know what that anything to do? I mean congrats to that particular zerg player in that particular match to push the creep that well but obviously it is not the norm at all. Im not going to bother to answer th other stuff tho, just an advice, try to learn about dinamics of sc2
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On January 08 2017 12:01 Argonauta wrote:
Yes that terran player is lacking map presence since he is lettng the creep go that far still I dont know what that anything to do? I mean congrats to that particular zerg player in that particular match to push the creep that well but obviously it is not the norm at all. Im not going to bother to answer th other stuff tho, just an advice, try to learn about dinamics of sc2
Ok thank you so much for the advice, I will try to learn more about the dynamics of sc2. 
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It's quite rare to see zergs fight mech with SH at the pro level. avilo's salty because he faces Golden all the time on ladder who goes SH because he knows how salty it makes avilo.
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It's quite rare to see terrans fight with mech at the pro level, probably since the pros know how broken the SH is. Golden is using SH because he knows that avilo plays mech, which indeed is salty.
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On January 08 2017 12:53 jamella wrote:
It's quite rare to see terrans fight with mech at the pro level, probably since the pros know how broken the SH is. Golden is using SH because he knows that avilo plays mech, which indeed is salty.
How quippy of you! Come to think of it, I've never seen SH used to counter mech at the pro level. It's pretty much always roach/hydra/viper into tech switches. Try again.
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On January 07 2017 22:56 bulya wrote:I'd say, Blizzard prefers the game to be more dynamic. Camping isn't really fun to watch, to play, or play against. Mech is still viable, not the BW mech because BW was a different game. But factory and starport units can win games with almost no bio support, which is mech for me. And as a zerg player I must scout now because there are very different styles the terran can play now, unlike the pre-patch. I guess Blizzard wants some diversity for terran, but not camping as it isn't dynamic.
blizzard wants us to play bio because:
1. mech is extremely boring to watch, its not like broodwar like you said
2. bio is exciting, it feels like an RTS, mech feels like tower defense, its actually so low skill and boring. even if innovation told me mech is very skilled, i would still think that mech is low skill game play that should not be encourage. i play only terran and i mech 100% tvt, and i have this opinion
3. they didnt balance the game around people building only factory units, they wanted mixed compositions like you say
4. making a map pool that makes mech more playable makes sstuff like bio tank and mines + bio way too strong. i really feel like we hve the best map designers in the world, hands down, and they have come up with a lot of elegant solutions for these problem (due to protoss facing the same problems with very spread bases) like intelligent destructible rock placement and making sure 3rds are reasonably defensible by an army that is covering your natural as well
ultimately when i hear mech whine, it sounds to me like a player who wants to just max and death push, because thats always what it is. thats the way mech is in this game. avilo thinks that swarm host are broken, and they might be, but if it wasnt SH, it owuld be something else. mech playerz are all thesame, and ive been guilty of this at times, they just want to build workers and upgraded mech units, cross the map with a deathball. not esports imo, just ladder
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On January 08 2017 12:59 bashscript wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2017 12:53 jamella wrote:
It's quite rare to see terrans fight with mech at the pro level, probably since the pros know how broken the SH is. Golden is using SH because he knows that avilo plays mech, which indeed is salty. How quippy of you! Come to think of it, I've never seen SH used to counter mech at the pro level. It's pretty much always roach/hydra/viper into tech switches. Try again.
"Always". You make it sound as if going mech is a regular thing among pros, 99% of the games are still bio. Yes, innovation and byun both experimented with the cyclone and "mech" in the beginning of 3.8 and managed to win a few games, mostly because the opponent were caught off guard. Feel free to link any recent pro games where your statement is true.
On January 08 2017 16:00 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2017 22:56 bulya wrote:On January 07 2017 18:46 c0sm0naut wrote:
blizzard wants you to play bio I'd say, Blizzard prefers the game to be more dynamic. Camping isn't really fun to watch, to play, or play against. Mech is still viable, not the BW mech because BW was a different game. But factory and starport units can win games with almost no bio support, which is mech for me. And as a zerg player I must scout now because there are very different styles the terran can play now, unlike the pre-patch. I guess Blizzard wants some diversity for terran, but not camping as it isn't dynamic. blizzard wants us to play bio because: 1. mech is extremely boring to watch, its not like broodwar like you said 2. bio is exciting, it feels like an RTS, mech feels like tower defense, its actually so low skill and boring. even if innovation told me mech is very skilled, i would still think that mech is low skill game play that should not be encourage. i play only terran and i mech 100% tvt, and i have this opinion 3. they didnt balance the game around people building only factory units, they wanted mixed compositions like you say 4. making a map pool that makes mech more playable makes sstuff like bio tank and mines + bio way too strong. i really feel like we hve the best map designers in the world, hands down, and they have come up with a lot of elegant solutions for these problem (due to protoss facing the same problems with very spread bases) like intelligent destructible rock placement and making sure 3rds are reasonably defensible by an army that is covering your natural as well ultimately when i hear mech whine, it sounds to me like a player who wants to just max and death push, because thats always what it is. thats the way mech is in this game. avilo thinks that swarm host are broken, and they might be, but if it wasnt SH, it owuld be something else. mech playerz are all thesame, and ive been guilty of this at times, they just want to build workers and upgraded mech units, cross the map with a deathball. not esports imo, just ladder
If Blizzard wanted to make the game more dynamic, wouldn't an alternative to the 2/1/1 be something to consider?
Camping isn't really fun to watch, to play, or play against. But if you're playing Zerg it's perfectly fine. It's always up to the Terran to be attacking and if you dont, you're camping or turtling. Even if the Zerg didn't attack either, it's the Terran that's being accused of being defensive and boring. If the terran doesn't manage to cripple the Zerg within the first minutes of the game, it's an auto-loss, since the Zerg "mech" is so much better than the Terrans.
Just to remind you, back in Brood War mech was the standard in most matchups and it worked very similar to SC2. You "Camp", "Turtle", "Build workers", "Upgrade mech units" until they had the "Deathball" and started pushing across the map. During this era, the viewership was in the millions and produced far more exciting and entertaining games compared to the current state of SC2.
Isn't it more fun to see longer, versatile and strategical games where more skill can be applied rather than seeing two medivacs with marines fly towards the Zerg at the five minute mark in every single game? If what you want to see is byun microing indivudual marines with a medivac in order to win a game, then maybe a MOBA is more suitable for you? Starcraft is a game of strategy after all.
Don't get me wrong, micro can be very exciting. But when the entire game comes down to if you can perfectly micro your medivacs in three different locations or you're dead, is very bad for the game, especially for less hardcore players in the lower leagues. A solid macro game with good mechanics should be far more rewarding.
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On January 09 2017 05:25 jamella wrote:
Don't get me wrong, micro can be very exciting. But when the entire game comes down to if you can perfectly micro your medivacs in three different locations or you're dead, is very bad for the game, especially for less hardcore players in the lower leagues. A solid macro game with good mechanics should be far more rewarding.
Well, i always hear this argument from Terran players : "I can't win because i don't have god like micro, i don't have 400 APM".
But when you watch their replays :
well, they don't know the basics of macro, do plently of bad decisions, they micro while the other have +30 supply and it's already over.
But never put themself in question, never try to improve their macro, but yell : "My race is so hard, need 400 APM to beat noob Z/P" while it's not why they have lost.
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On January 09 2017 05:25 jamella wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2017 12:59 bashscript wrote:On January 08 2017 12:53 jamella wrote:
It's quite rare to see terrans fight with mech at the pro level, probably since the pros know how broken the SH is. Golden is using SH because he knows that avilo plays mech, which indeed is salty. How quippy of you! Come to think of it, I've never seen SH used to counter mech at the pro level. It's pretty much always roach/hydra/viper into tech switches. Try again. "Always". You make it sound as if going mech is a regular thing among pros, 99% of the games are still bio. Yes, innovation and byun both experimented with the cyclone and "mech" in the beginning of 3.8 and managed to win a few games, mostly because the opponent were caught off guard. Feel free to link any recent pro games where your statement is true. Show nested quote +On January 08 2017 16:00 c0sm0naut wrote:On January 07 2017 22:56 bulya wrote:On January 07 2017 18:46 c0sm0naut wrote:
blizzard wants you to play bio I'd say, Blizzard prefers the game to be more dynamic. Camping isn't really fun to watch, to play, or play against. Mech is still viable, not the BW mech because BW was a different game. But factory and starport units can win games with almost no bio support, which is mech for me. And as a zerg player I must scout now because there are very different styles the terran can play now, unlike the pre-patch. I guess Blizzard wants some diversity for terran, but not camping as it isn't dynamic. blizzard wants us to play bio because: 1. mech is extremely boring to watch, its not like broodwar like you said 2. bio is exciting, it feels like an RTS, mech feels like tower defense, its actually so low skill and boring. even if innovation told me mech is very skilled, i would still think that mech is low skill game play that should not be encourage. i play only terran and i mech 100% tvt, and i have this opinion 3. they didnt balance the game around people building only factory units, they wanted mixed compositions like you say 4. making a map pool that makes mech more playable makes sstuff like bio tank and mines + bio way too strong. i really feel like we hve the best map designers in the world, hands down, and they have come up with a lot of elegant solutions for these problem (due to protoss facing the same problems with very spread bases) like intelligent destructible rock placement and making sure 3rds are reasonably defensible by an army that is covering your natural as well ultimately when i hear mech whine, it sounds to me like a player who wants to just max and death push, because thats always what it is. thats the way mech is in this game. avilo thinks that swarm host are broken, and they might be, but if it wasnt SH, it owuld be something else. mech playerz are all thesame, and ive been guilty of this at times, they just want to build workers and upgraded mech units, cross the map with a deathball. not esports imo, just ladder If Blizzard wanted to make the game more dynamic, wouldn't an alternative to the 2/1/1 be something to consider? Camping isn't really fun to watch, to play, or play against. But if you're playing Zerg it's perfectly fine. It's always up to the Terran to be attacking and if you dont, you're camping or turtling. Even if the Zerg didn't attack either, it's the Terran that's being accused of being defensive and boring. If the terran doesn't manage to cripple the Zerg within the first minutes of the game, it's an auto-loss, since the Zerg "mech" is so much better than the Terrans. Just to remind you, back in Brood War mech was the standard in most matchups and it worked very similar to SC2. You "Camp", "Turtle", "Build workers", "Upgrade mech units" until they had the "Deathball" and started pushing across the map. During this era, the viewership was in the millions and produced far more exciting and entertaining games compared to the current state of SC2. Isn't it more fun to see longer, versatile and strategical games where more skill can be applied rather than seeing two medivacs with marines fly towards the Zerg at the five minute mark in every single game? If what you want to see is byun microing indivudual marines with a medivac in order to win a game, then maybe a MOBA is more suitable for you? Starcraft is a game of strategy after all. Don't get me wrong, micro can be very exciting. But when the entire game comes down to if you can perfectly micro your medivacs in three different locations or you're dead, is very bad for the game, especially for less hardcore players in the lower leagues. A solid macro game with good mechanics should be far more rewarding.
I'm not sure what you're trying to educate me about. I made a simple and accurate point: At the pro level, the strategy avilo complains about is nonexistent. avilo runs into it and finds it onerous specifically because of Golden trolling him on ladder. Ergo, there is no issue to address, this is much ado about nothing. It's not like the SH just got buffed or something. We've had a long time to observe mech ZvT balance. If SH were so imbalanced against mech, you'd see Zerg go SH every time at the pro level, but that doesn't happen now, does it? Also your "99% of ZvTs terran chooses bio" is false if not outright disingenuous. ByuN doesn't go mech, but I'd say Inno and Gumiho, for instance, go mech about 20% and 40% of the time in ZvT, respectively.
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Always same retarded argument "in BW that, in BW this"...Newsflash- sc2 is totally different game. Why do u even bother comparing this two?
Second thing is that concidering how Blizzard buffed Terran and Toss harras through all this years - Zerg has no fucking choice and must be defensive. If not- u loose the game. This race has no comeback mechanism like Terrans have with mules. If Zerg looses for example one mineral line- its gg. Terran looses one mineral line- he drops mules, remakes scv and in the same time his unit production doesn't even slow down.
So if u want to criticize I will say it again. As Zerg i would prefer being more active in early game and early mid but instead i muststay defensive because 2 medivacks with stimmed marines or one oack of BF hellions can kill me straight. That's unfortunate but that's how it works
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Sure, SH should be looked at just like 3rax reaper should -.-
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On January 08 2017 09:26 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2017 08:41 Argonauta wrote:On January 08 2017 04:22 jamella wrote:
They are actually faster than banshees with the speed upgrade. It gets even worse with nydus. According to liquipedia Swarm host speed:4.13 Banshee upgrade increases the movement speed of Banshees from 3.85 to 5.25. And btw: hellion speed:5.95 Back your facts before throwing them in a balance thread please Swarmhosts: 4.13 Swarmhosts on creep: 4.13 x 1.30 = 5.369 Banshee with speed: 5.25 < 5.369 So off creep you need speed banshees, there is nothing else. On Creep you just chase them a little with hit and run and then run into AA. And btw: Why are you mentioning Hellions? They do not kill SH. Not at all. Complete your facts before throwing them into a balance thread please.
please... banshees flying over obstacles and cliffs - swarm hosts can not
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EPT
