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On January 04 2017 13:15 PiGStarcraft wrote:
I've been saying since the patch that SH are currently too powerful. However since they're a weird unit that won't see much use for a while in pro play - they probably won't be nerfed for a long time. Gotta encourage those pros to abuse the imba!
So far I haven't seen them used super abusively just yet, looking forward to seeing some "broken" builds of it though.
Not much to add to the mech discussion. A super slow style that involves camping kinda goes against the fast paced nature of the game. I'm fine with it being just an alternative style that can be played aggressively through the midgame but falls off at some point if your only plan is to camp.
This ^
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On January 04 2017 14:28 OverlordisOPkappa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 13:30 Zacrophage wrote:
it true...
When i try to play Bio Zerg go SH and gangbang my base with locust
And if i play vs toss they just Immo Archon Disruptor and I die cost of lategame carriere who are hard to kill
SC begin to be dead since LOTV (for me) Let's be honest, this game is already dead and not only for you. This game is too frustrating and not fun for most players at this point. I doubt it will change anytime soon.
I mouseovered your profile and even that I know this is bait post there is a simple answer...
I found hard time beliving that every protoss goes that comp vs you and every zerg goes SH when you play BIO...
Also if your plan is to spam 1v1 ladder which involves a lot of blood pressure and adrenalin, which is natural habit of your body because of how the game is build... than no wonder u got flustrated, either you have some problems elsewhere or you cannot accept the fact that you dont want to play the game where you need to use your brain cells and accept the fact that your not good.
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On January 04 2017 15:33 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 14:28 OverlordisOPkappa wrote:On January 04 2017 13:30 Zacrophage wrote:
it true...
When i try to play Bio Zerg go SH and gangbang my base with locust
And if i play vs toss they just Immo Archon Disruptor and I die cost of lategame carriere who are hard to kill
SC begin to be dead since LOTV (for me) Let's be honest, this game is already dead and not only for you. This game is too frustrating and not fun for most players at this point. I doubt it will change anytime soon. I mouseovered your profile and even that I know this is bait post there is a simple answer... I found hard time beliving that every protoss goes that comp vs you and every zerg goes SH when you play BIO... Also if your plan is to spam 1v1 ladder which involves a lot of blood pressure and adrenalin, which is natural habit of your body because of how the game is build... than no wonder u got flustrated, either you have some problems elsewhere or you cannot accept the fact that you dont want to play the game where you need to use your brain cells and accept the fact that your not good.
I main Zerg.
Tell me more Freud.
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I agree that Swarm Hosts should cost more resources. The current Swarm Host situation is actually worse then the HOTS Swarm Host situation. Back then playing against Swarm Hosts was boring but at least balanced due to pdd being OP.
Now when pdd is nerfed you can not actually play mech against a Zerg that knows how to use Swarm Hosts.
It has gone so far that I have actually stopped trying trying to play Starcraft against Zerg. I do a 1-base all-in every single game vs Zerg. It is a complete coin flip and boring but at least the game is over quickly.
Suggestion:
1. Increase Swarm Host cost.
2. Increase Raven supply to 4 to discourage mass Ravens.
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Dear Avilo...
The problem i have with reading your balance posts is that u always play same, and same style, and when it doesn't work- you just flame about it everywhere. Your statement that when Terrans playing mech are forced to 30 minute turtle camping game is obviously biased and idiotic. The truth is that even if Zerg wouldn't make SH any time- you will still turtle into 30 minute camping game. That's how you play. For god sake even if u play Zerg you still turtle into 30 minute camp.
Swarmhost definitely need tuning, and Blizzard admitted this in the first place when they were buffing them. I think that, they are still uncommon on tournaments and ladder as PiG stated, that's why they don't have too much data to make their move. But it will definitely come so stop crying.
The other problem with your statements is, that you are so biased about your own abusive gameplay that u lost your view on the whiole picture that this game represents. Must I remind you, that there are other races in this game than Terran? All your proposals are about nerfing what beats you, and buffing what can give you freewin. Mech is very strong vs Zerg nowadays. Just watch some Innovation or Gumiho, or TY. Mobile and active mech benefits from latest changes. I really hope that your cancer-turtle style will not be viable, as it is abusive, boring and shitty to watch. Sorry dude.
My god, you whine about everything that Zerg have to counter you and in the same time you abuse things like broken Ravens. I watch your streams from time to time, and the the most funny thing is, you are turtling from the start, being passive till u have 120 supply, and u dare to rage about Zerg having 5 bases...My god. Just tone your "twitch persona" and maybe you will see that you're wrong.
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Everyone I used to play with quit in the last few months, viewrship for streams and tourneys is lower than ever, big tournaments end, korean and foreign pros quit the game in droves while criticising the design team, e-sports organisations are pulling out of the game, but if you ask people involved with the game, lotv is god's gift to sc2 and it's all damn league's and dota's fault!
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When you know Avilo manage to get banned from battle net...
Still spamming here : "Make mech stronger", whatever PvT winrate is 37-41% thanks to the good tank... Terran is crushing everything on korea.
But well, as avilo keep insulting the players that beat him (even if there are known pro players), say "they're imba", or hacking when they're Terran.
Avilo achieves nothing in his career, why people are listenning him ?
He is not objective, not a good player, and even if he spams mech all day, he is far from being a good mech player...
After, nerf vipers, nerf broodlord, now nerf SH. The only use of the unit is to counter tanks, but well, nothing should counter tanks according to avilo...
And the bias rhetoric : "They make free units, there are OP", while the attack of SH are the units.
Do you count the bullets of your marines, do they cost money ? No, all country of the world would kill to have some bullets free rifle, but you have it
And nobody complains about it, because it's the game mecanics, but suddently a unit use this mecanism a bit differently : "It's OP, free units", while you are actually complaing about the range of the unit, not free units...
Of course, as the goal is getting the unit nerfed, not being constructive, well whatever, yell : "Nerf free units are OP".
So why not make tanks missile cost money ? It cost 50 000-80 000 $ per unit in reality, so must cost money no ?
The tanks is currently an anti-play units, it creates a 13 range no man's land, while the unit comes so early, nothing stop a mech player from massing tanks (the deathball mecanic).
Never heard a mech player, especially avilo, making propositions to make mech play more interesting and less turtle, it's just about nerfing all the counters of the tanks to create an invincible mech deathball.
And it's not surprising, when you see his stream :
it's never his fault, never his mistakes, it's just the other "hacking", or "imbalance race", he should win all the games even vs pro gamers,so his propositions are always here to allow him to win all games.
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Swarm hosts are strong based of how they operate. Making them cost more resources won't cut it, nerf the unit stats instead if you want a change. You'd literally have to double the cost if you wanted to make an impact without nerfing unit stats.
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SHs can be powerful if terran just turtles for 20 mins, but zergs can't use them if terrans play an aggressive style with cyclones/hellions like Innovation. They are not OP, they are just strong against a certain type of play. Moreover, I don't really know how SHs can be powerful against BIO play, since zergs have to keep churning out units to defend their 4th base, so they can't really invest on SHs, since they don't help dealing against drops, adn they don't help in direct engagements unlike the old HotS SHs. So the problem we should ask is not 'why is SH so OP?', instead it should be 'why is this game so fast'
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On January 04 2017 12:56 Parcelleus wrote:
When some GM Korean SC2 players talk, I listen. Otherwise, yeah bye.
This is always the excuse that randoms give to ignore advice on game design by top level players. There's always someone better who has insight that the original poster lacks and therefore they should be disregarded.
Half of all Korean pros lost their jobs just a couple of months ago when proleague ended. SC2 is in crisis mode and Blizzard knows it. Avilo's attempts to make the game better and more sustainable in the long-term should be met with critical dialogue, not outright dismissal.
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The only thing that Avilo wants to sustain is getting free wins with abusing unbeatable units in gmae of starcraft. That's why he whines only about things that can counter them, and never about obviously broken units that he uses.
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I saw Swarm Hosts used in OSC, ladder streams and other small tournaments. Some of them did better than others, but none of them were clearly OP and easily winning the game like people are saying in here.. Some guys just completely destroyed SH. I've been trying to use them myself and I get completely destroyed by Terrans using the new mobility of mech thanks to the cyclone.
So even if they were too strong - I don't think it's as bad as some people make it out in here due to many factors.
That being said, I still agree with avilo's statement that this patch did not fix many issues it was supposed to fix. But for different reasons. In any case, SH can go die in a fire because even if it is not OP, the playstyle it promotes is utterly boring.
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I don't understand why blizzard even bothered with the swarmhost again. I think Zerg has enough units and more than enough means to fight mech. Just cut the damn unit.
Innovations cyclone mech is pretty allin and loses if he doesn't win the game after a certain amount of time.
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I will say that on ladder swarmhosts do feel a tad overpowered when you consider the micro required / cost. I think they are cool interesting units, but feel maybe an increase in supply cost might keep zergs from just only cranking them. Personally, I believe zerg is the easiest it has ever been to play (not to be confused with overpowered).
On another note, I truly dislike Avilo's take on the game. Trust that even after they nerf the SH, he will find something else to complain about. He knows it is why people watch him play games. Either that or he truly suffers from the Dunning-Kruger effect.
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I say it again. There is no rule which limits or restricts what belongs into an rts. This behavior causes stagnation. You stop the improvement or development of a genre!
Second it might cost no resources, but it isnt free! It costs dps and time. Some might laugh now, but these are very important things in sc2 and decide the outcome of a match.
After locusts have died, zerg sits on worthless 30 supply for the next 30-40s. He has not enough army supply to stop the next pressure (zerg needs 3/2 or twice as much supply).
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On January 04 2017 17:25 cmdspinner1 wrote:
I don't understand why blizzard even bothered with the swarmhost again. I think Zerg has enough units and more than enough means to fight mech. Just cut the damn unit.
Innovations cyclone mech is pretty allin and loses if he doesn't win the game after a certain amount of time.
Exept he never looses with this push XD. It's the same situation as it is with 3 racks reapers vs Zerg- The build is definitely imba, but everybody will say that's Byun perfect micro...LOL. Ofc he's got perfect micro, but still the build is OP as games vs Dark at Blizzcone final showed. As I concider Dark to be the best Zerg player. And by the way- soon after they changed Cyclones, it was already known that Cyclone/hellion-hellbat was wrecking Zerg at specific timing attack and Zerg can do shit about it. Blizzard did nothing about that, and i still hope that they will. Maybe after more feedback from tournaments.
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On January 04 2017 17:32 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 17:25 cmdspinner1 wrote:
I don't understand why blizzard even bothered with the swarmhost again. I think Zerg has enough units and more than enough means to fight mech. Just cut the damn unit.
Innovations cyclone mech is pretty allin and loses if he doesn't win the game after a certain amount of time. Exept he never looses with this push XD. It's the same situation as it is with 3 racks reapers vs Zerg- The build is definitely imba, but everybody will say that's Byun perfect micro...LOL. Ofc he's got perfect micro, but still the build is OP as games vs Dark at Blizzcone final showed. As I concider Dark to be the best Zerg player. And by the way- soon after they changed Cyclones, it was already known that Cyclone/hellion-hellbat was wrecking Zerg at specific timing attack and Zerg can do shit about it. Blizzard did nothing about that, and i still hope that they will. Maybe after more feedback from tournaments.
I agree that innos cyclone allin is very strong but counterable with roach ravager which byul showed yesterday (I think it was byul). Perhaps the cyclone needs to be changed slightly. But that wasn't my point, i meant that innos cyclone timing is more gimmicky than a real mech alternative
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I know avilo only mentioned carriers in passing but don't bcs deal with them really well through yamato?
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Who cares if it is Avilo who wrote this? The SH cost is ridiculous, and soon will be nerfed. Avilo is right.
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On January 04 2017 17:07 Meta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 12:56 Parcelleus wrote:
When some GM Korean SC2 players talk, I listen. Otherwise, yeah bye. This is always the excuse that randoms give to ignore advice on game design by top level players. There's always someone better who has insight that the original poster lacks and therefore they should be disregarded. Half of all Korean pros lost their jobs just a couple of months ago when proleague ended. SC2 is in crisis mode and Blizzard knows it. Avilo's attempts to make the game better and more sustainable in the long-term should be met with critical dialogue, not outright dismissal.
Yep, i honestly think that has been a part of the problem all these years. It takes a korean SC2 progamer to use/abuse something in a tournament, or be vocal about it, then blizzard lead balance devs will listen.
If it's a random "foreigner" then it's obviously inconsequential and should be ignored because "we know better" -blizzard
It's probably why they've dismissed everything from everyone in the community about 8 armor ultra, invulnerable nydus worm, queen range increase, etc for so long. They don't see those things as an issue because it's not used every single game in every single GSL tourney game or something really crazy like that.
On January 04 2017 17:10 hiroshOne wrote:
The only thing that Avilo wants to sustain is getting free wins with abusing unbeatable units in gmae of starcraft. That's why he whines only about things that can counter them, and never about obviously broken units that he uses.
Yes, that's obviously my goal...considering i've called out OP Terran non-sense in the past such as mass liberators, mass ravens during HOTS, and i was banned from the battle.net forums for criticizing 3 rax reaper because the most recent tourney had been won by 3 rax mass reaper (which is still in the game). The game devs apparently did not like me calling out 3 rax reaper for being ridiculously bad for the game in TvT/TvZ and undermining the latest tournament winner's win off of it.
Most of the times i've posted about stuff on TL it's usually about blatantly obvious things that were ridiculously broken. Look through my post history - calling out broodlord/infestor to be fixed, took a year later. Calling out swarmhosts to be fixed, took a year later. Etc, etc. I have consistently been right over the years about literally everything balance-wise and game design wise that has infiltrated it's way into SC2.
The problem is the vocal majority of SJW-type people in the SC2 community that decided to label me simply as a "balance whiner" without actually ever reading my posts or listening to the arguments on why something like the swarmhost is ridiculously bad for SC2 gameplay.
I mean, i would have thought SC2 players like you would have realized by now that maybe you were wrong the entire time and i have over 18 yrs of experience playing RTS games and probably know what i'm talking about lol.
On January 04 2017 17:48 MLuneth wrote:
I know avilo only mentioned carriers in passing but don't bcs deal with them really well through yamato?
I mentioned them because they are basically a super unit that has no counter currently when you get enough of them. They counter their counters like corruptors and vikings once even a tiny bit of splash like storm or archons are added in.
The thing you said about BCS dealing with them is true to an extent, but leads to really terrible gameplay where the Terran is sitting there trying to turtle to 15 BCS, and the Protoss is already just sitting there accumulating carriers into high templar and then switching to mass tempest if he sees the BCS. It then just becomes this ridiculous no skill game where neither player is trading units - you just both have 1 final battle of mass air essentially. But the fact the BC is the only counter to carriers is a metagame problem in itself because it causes the above situation.
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EPT
