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On January 07 2017 11:49 Destructicon wrote:
They also need to change the economic model, again, because quite frankly their last attempt failed. Yes it speed up the game, but it also hit a lot of strategies hard, especially those that rely on more build-up, they should have encouraged players to expand by making workers more efficient the more spread out across bases they are, not force you to expand because your resources are running out.
Yes, I'd be interested to see this, and I think if done right would make both mech and bio players happy - revert the changes causing bases to mine out faster and make it advantageous to have workers spread across more bases. It'd require a major rebalance of many things though and I doubt they're willing to go through that again just for mech.
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blizzard wants you to play bio
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On January 07 2017 18:46 c0sm0naut wrote:
blizzard wants you to play bio
I'd say, Blizzard prefers the game to be more dynamic.
Camping isn't really fun to watch, to play, or play against.
Mech is still viable, not the BW mech because BW was a different game. But factory and starport units can win games with almost no bio support, which is mech for me. And as a zerg player I must scout now because there are very different styles the terran can play now, unlike the pre-patch.
I guess Blizzard wants some diversity for terran, but not camping as it isn't dynamic.
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wahhh, why doesn't my race have one unbeatable composition that I can go for in every single game in every single matchup? wahhhhhhhhmbulance....broodwar never had this problem
User was warned for this post
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On January 04 2017 13:12 imre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 12:56 Solar424 wrote:On January 04 2017 12:52 avilo wrote:
Also to add...i don't think a lot of people even know about this issue yet because there haven't been many tournaments on the current patch, and most Terrans still go bio for the majority of their games.
I get that not everyone wants every game to be mech 100% either...but imagine if banelings were given another 50 extra HP on top of what they were already given. Bio would be unplayable because of 1 unit. That's kind of analogous to the situation here.
If you opt for mech, the guy just starts making swarmhosts and collects free cash for 20 minutes. Plenty of Terrans like Innovation and Gumiho have been making mech work, just not your "turtle for 30 minutes and mass Ravens" style. They focus on more mobile units like Hellions, Cyclones, and Banshees and end the game in around 10 minutes. The mech that inno is currently doing focus on one unit: Cyclone monobattle. But sure that's great. Tons of interesting micro relation with Zerg units too.
Inno is a just meta abuser. Plain & simple.
His style will only work when there's something OP to be exploited or when blizzard chooses to randomly break things.
Pre-nerf hellbats, widow mine splash & fast burrow buff, SCV pulls, and now cyclones.
In terms of pure micro, Maru is still a better player.
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On January 07 2017 23:49 fx9 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 13:12 imre wrote:On January 04 2017 12:56 Solar424 wrote:On January 04 2017 12:52 avilo wrote:
Also to add...i don't think a lot of people even know about this issue yet because there haven't been many tournaments on the current patch, and most Terrans still go bio for the majority of their games.
I get that not everyone wants every game to be mech 100% either...but imagine if banelings were given another 50 extra HP on top of what they were already given. Bio would be unplayable because of 1 unit. That's kind of analogous to the situation here.
If you opt for mech, the guy just starts making swarmhosts and collects free cash for 20 minutes. Plenty of Terrans like Innovation and Gumiho have been making mech work, just not your "turtle for 30 minutes and mass Ravens" style. They focus on more mobile units like Hellions, Cyclones, and Banshees and end the game in around 10 minutes. The mech that inno is currently doing focus on one unit: Cyclone monobattle. But sure that's great. Tons of interesting micro relation with Zerg units too. Inno is a just meta abuser. Plain & simple. His style will only work when there's something OP to be exploited or when blizzard chooses to randomly break things. Pre-nerf hellbats, widow mine splash & fast burrow buff, SCV pulls, and now cyclones. In terms of pure micro, Maru is still a better player.
If micro is the thing that decides who is a better player then in that scenario you have a case. (I do agree with you on the point that Inno is usually at his best when he has a strong meta to take advantage because of his great mechanics)
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Honestly, find an answer or stop complaining, because David Kim probably doesn't have the sense or reason to find an elegant change to the situation, mech has always had problems with hard counter units since WoL and (don't get me wrong I wish the unit was removed from the game) Host's have been David's pet project since HOTS, he obviously loves them despite being either OP or UP and nothing in between.
This whole epic journey to have mech be viable has ruined what little remained of this game, now on top of dealing with crazy fast bio we have to deal with tank camp fests, mass Raven/Planetary, Cyclone/Hellbat which is boring and tedious to play against (much like mech is in general) has made SC2 even more boring and frustrating to play because now most ZvT is just 30 + minute mech games.
Sucks that instead of patching everything to be better, they started patching everything to make the worst to watch/worst to play against style in the game viable. I'm not going to clown on Avilo because he is making good points and Hosts probably are a bit OP against stationary units (emerging trend for mech since David is clueless) but at this point they should just fire Kim, wait 6 + months for the meta to stabilize, then come back with someone fresh and new with a new vision and direction for the game.
.....Because this "vision and direction" we have going on is fucking pathetic for what is supposed to be the crown jewel of the RTS genre, Activision obviously thought that RTS and SC2 wasn't dead enough already on it's own so they wanted to expedite it. I gave up this game several master league promotions and several thousand ladder games later for Heroes of the Storm because the people in charge of that game actually fine tune the game and make it better with each patch, it's literally the opposite for SC2, every patch the game just becomes more cluster fucked.
We NEED someone else in charge of balance and design, it's been said for years now but look at the stream numbers and tournaments? Pretty much in their death throes and it's already dead to the Koreans.
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Good points in OP & i agree that FREE Units do not belong in an RTS GAME (pls Change swarm host) but Dustin Browder thought it would be "Zergy" omg i hate Dustin Browder
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On January 08 2017 03:00 WhosQuany wrote:
Good points in OP & i agree that FREE Units do not belong in an RTS GAME (pls Change swarm host) but Dustin Browder thought it would be "Zergy" omg i hate Dustin Browder
Wasn't Dustin Browder out of the SC2 division before HOTS went live?
And even if he did create the Host, David and his team still implemented it, changed it multiple times to no real avail on it's balance, and refused to scrap it over what, 2 - 3 years now? Even if it was Dustin's fault at some point, that ship has long since sailed and captain Kim has been steering this ship.
Dustin does a great job with HOTS at least, can't say the same for David.
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Avilo is higher ranked then he ever was since the new patch, this thread is a joke.
Mech is viable atm, at the very least up untill top gm level.
But most mech players won't be satisfied until Zerg playees can absolutely do nothing to interrupt a mech player until they get their maxed out army to just faceroll Zerg players.
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Turtle mech is cancer, and so is SH. Cancer x cancer = balance.
Leave mass tanks to TvT, since terrans enjoy playing against it.
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Well, can you post a replay pack of your attempts at overcoming swarmhosts with mech? Before people learned how to overcome lotv ultras they thought they were unbeatable too. Instead of saying they're too strong, let's find ways to deal with it.
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On January 08 2017 03:30 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Avilo is higher ranked then he ever was since the new patch, this thread is a joke.
Mech is viable atm, at the very least up untill top gm level.
But most mech players won't be satisfied until Zerg playees can absolutely do nothing to interrupt a mech player until they get their maxed out army to just faceroll Zerg players.
Besides the ad hominem there, I do think his point has merit. I'm not a very active or high level player, but the problem that Avilo is bringing up is that a single unit does away with an entire body of strategies for a race. He doesn't want to be forced into playing a single strategy every game versus Zerg, and therefore he wants to have a multitude of opportunities. The current meta allows for a single unit to dominate an entire strategy, which prevents Terrans from having a multitude of possible strategies to use. Having the option of using different strategies is very important because it mixes up games and keeps viewing/playing a fresh experience. None of that presupposes what you're saying, nor does he claim he wants to be able to faceroll Zergs with a maxed army. It's ok if there is a composition and general strategy to counter a meching Terran, that is an integral part of a healthy game. However, massing one unit prevent mech by stalling is hardly a healthy matchup state.
With all that said its very possible that Avilo is overshooting how important this buff is. It could be that mech needs to be reimagined as a strategy and that the composition as well as the playstyle need to be reconceived to get around this issue. Regardless I don't think you can just brush off his post as him wanting to win every game with an obviously imba strat.
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On January 07 2017 11:07 avilo wrote:
No mention of swarmhosts in the community update from today. Sad. And incompetent.
the people in Blizzard's management infrastructure are too smart and conscientious to allow incompetent people to get promoted and stay long term in important positions.
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On January 08 2017 03:41 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2017 03:30 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Avilo is higher ranked then he ever was since the new patch, this thread is a joke.
Mech is viable atm, at the very least up untill top gm level.
But most mech players won't be satisfied until Zerg playees can absolutely do nothing to interrupt a mech player until they get their maxed out army to just faceroll Zerg players. Besides the ad hominem there, I do think his point has merit. I'm not a very active or high level player, but the problem that Avilo is bringing up is that a single unit does away with an entire body of strategies for a race. He doesn't want to be forced into playing a single strategy every game versus Zerg, and therefore he wants to have a multitude of opportunities. The current meta allows for a single unit to dominate an entire strategy, which prevents Terrans from having a multitude of possible strategies to use. Having the option of using different strategies is very important because it mixes up games and keeps viewing/playing a fresh experience. None of that presupposes what you're saying, nor does he claim he wants to be able to faceroll Zergs with a maxed army. It's ok if there is a composition and general strategy to counter a meching Terran, that is an integral part of a healthy game. However, massing one unit prevent mech by stalling is hardly a healthy matchup state. With all that said its very possible that Avilo is overshooting how important this buff is. It could be that mech needs to be reimagined as a strategy and that the composition as well as the playstyle need to be reconceived to get around this issue. Regardless I don't think you can just brush off his post as him wanting to win every game with an obviously imba strat.
He does play mech though, and is winning vs better opponents now.
So I don't see how SH make mech not playable at all
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Swarmhosts have a nice role pressuring a turtling Terran in midgame, specially now that Tanks got that massive buff. The way to deal with them its just chasing them around the map in the massive window between each locust wave so I see no problem honestly.
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I'm getting the feeling that all the people hating on avilo and his playstyle haven't even watched his stream. People are talking about "turtle mech" and "camping", of course that leads to boring games and shouldn't be encouraged (btw Z and P do have the option to play like that already).
But avilo is actually very active on the map, especially with banshees and hellions. The problem with the swarmhost has nothing to do with the way you play, whether it is turtling or being aggressive. You will always have locusts flying into your base, killing multiple buildings every time.
And there is NO WAY to catch them.
They are actually faster than banshees with the speed upgrade. It gets even worse with nydus.
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On January 08 2017 04:22 jamella wrote:
They are actually faster than banshees with the speed upgrade. It gets even worse with nydus.
According to liquipedia
Swarm host speed:4.13
Banshee upgrade increases the movement speed of Banshees from 3.85 to 5.25.
And btw: hellion speed:5.95
Back your facts before throwing them in a balance thread please
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On January 08 2017 04:22 jamella wrote:
I'm getting the feeling that all the people hating on avilo and his playstyle haven't even watched his stream. People are talking about "turtle mech" and "camping", of course that leads to boring games and shouldn't be encouraged (btw Z and P do have the option to play like that already).
But avilo is actually very active on the map, especially with banshees and hellions. The problem with the swarmhost has nothing to do with the way you play, whether it is turtling or being aggressive. You will always have locusts flying into your base, killing multiple buildings every time.
And there is NO WAY to catch them.
They are actually faster than banshees with the speed upgrade. It gets even worse with nydus.
One solution people proposed back at the end of HOTS that you may remember was designing Locusts so that they have no auto-attack - - in other words, they will just sit on the ground doing nothing unless the player controls them, like Cyclone AA gun, for example.
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EPT
