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On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs?
"If you had ANY idea how underpowered Zerglings are against Banelings-" Oh wait. Hmm. Some units have counters in a strategy game like StarCraft, it's just mech players who don't want that to exist for them and complain nonstop despite the pages upon pages of reasoning as to why mech and SHs are the way they are and why that's good for the game and is not a serious issue that needs to be addresses this very second.
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On March 17 2017 16:49 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? You're right. I don't recognize how overpowered SH vs mech are. The only thing i recognize is that mech players are biased more than ISIS extremists about destroying infidels. User was warned for this post
Seriously, your attitude...
On March 18 2017 04:25 blunderfulguy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? "If you had ANY idea how underpowered Zerglings are against Banelings-" Oh wait. Hmm. Some units have counters in a strategy game like StarCraft, it's just mech players who don't want that to exist for them and complain nonstop despite the pages upon pages of reasoning as to why mech and SHs are the way they are and why that's good for the game and is not a serious issue that needs to be addresses this very second.
A counter should have a counter as well. How do you best play vs SH? Apparently you know the answer. Enlighten us.
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On March 18 2017 04:41 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2017 16:49 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? You're right. I don't recognize how overpowered SH vs mech are. The only thing i recognize is that mech players are biased more than ISIS extremists about destroying infidels. User was warned for this post Seriously, your attitude... Show nested quote +On March 18 2017 04:25 blunderfulguy wrote:On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? "If you had ANY idea how underpowered Zerglings are against Banelings-" Oh wait. Hmm. Some units have counters in a strategy game like StarCraft, it's just mech players who don't want that to exist for them and complain nonstop despite the pages upon pages of reasoning as to why mech and SHs are the way they are and why that's good for the game and is not a serious issue that needs to be addresses this very second. A counter should have a counter as well. How do you best play vs SH? Apparently you know the answer. Enlighten us.
I've seen people have success with some hellbats in front of their siege line to basically gun down the locusts as they land in. then the SH army is worthless for another 40+ seconds.
at 100/75 & 3 supply, SHs are not a cheap unit, and they're useless when they can't spawn their locusts.
And to the response: "Well then the SH runs around to where your army isn't, and throws a bunch of locusts into your base" - Yep - that's part of the unit's strength: [relative] mobility. Not as mobile as lings or mutas or anything like that, but more mobile than BLs.
Part of the mech army's weakness is its [relative] immobility. Dropships full of bio units will always be faster than a siege tank line setting up and settling in to siege a base. It's part of the trade off.
What do you consider to be a regular counter to mech? Let's play TheoryCraft right now - if SH were removed tomorrow, what would the most appropriate answer to mech be?
From my perspective, it seems like mech units are extremely powerful in a straight up fight, and the only way to really defeat them would be to attempt to harass them to death - so my response would probably be something like a flock of mutas, to hopefully keep the T pinned back and take over the rest of the map, and then [hopefully] demolish an army with banelings and re-max on a ton of lings to try to flood back in faster than they can replace anything.
My issue with that is that a few widow mines can effectively shut down a lot of that harassment (since many mech players tend to get to 2 bases, taking a late 3rd, and then pushing with a max army).
I'm quite interested to hear what you think the response should be, though?
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On March 18 2017 05:07 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2017 04:41 Phaenoman wrote:On March 17 2017 16:49 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? You're right. I don't recognize how overpowered SH vs mech are. The only thing i recognize is that mech players are biased more than ISIS extremists about destroying infidels. User was warned for this post Seriously, your attitude... On March 18 2017 04:25 blunderfulguy wrote:On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? "If you had ANY idea how underpowered Zerglings are against Banelings-" Oh wait. Hmm. Some units have counters in a strategy game like StarCraft, it's just mech players who don't want that to exist for them and complain nonstop despite the pages upon pages of reasoning as to why mech and SHs are the way they are and why that's good for the game and is not a serious issue that needs to be addresses this very second. A counter should have a counter as well. How do you best play vs SH? Apparently you know the answer. Enlighten us. What do you consider to be a regular counter to mech? Let's play TheoryCraft right now - if SH were removed tomorrow, what would the most appropriate answer to mech be?
We don't need to theorycraft for that. Koreans often play without swarmhost and seem to do ok with roach hydra viper -> broodlord.
Maybe mech would be slightly to strong if SH were removed but some numbers can always be adjusted.
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On March 18 2017 05:57 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2017 05:07 reneg wrote:On March 18 2017 04:41 Phaenoman wrote:On March 17 2017 16:49 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? You're right. I don't recognize how overpowered SH vs mech are. The only thing i recognize is that mech players are biased more than ISIS extremists about destroying infidels. User was warned for this post Seriously, your attitude... On March 18 2017 04:25 blunderfulguy wrote:On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? "If you had ANY idea how underpowered Zerglings are against Banelings-" Oh wait. Hmm. Some units have counters in a strategy game like StarCraft, it's just mech players who don't want that to exist for them and complain nonstop despite the pages upon pages of reasoning as to why mech and SHs are the way they are and why that's good for the game and is not a serious issue that needs to be addresses this very second. A counter should have a counter as well. How do you best play vs SH? Apparently you know the answer. Enlighten us. What do you consider to be a regular counter to mech? Let's play TheoryCraft right now - if SH were removed tomorrow, what would the most appropriate answer to mech be? We don't need to theorycraft for that. Koreans often play without swarmhost and seem to do ok with roach hydra viper -> broodlord. Maybe mech would be slightly to strong if SH were removed but some numbers can always be adjusted.
So how does "Koreans often play without swarm hosts" fit with the narrative in this thread that swarm hosts are OP?
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On March 17 2017 16:49 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? You're right. I don't recognize how overpowered SH vs mech are. The only thing i recognize is that mech players are biased more than ISIS extremists about destroying infidels. User was warned for this post
This right here is why i say we need a league lock for posting about balance, you dont even make an attempt to support your opinion with facts
instead you simply attack the person writing to deflect something you found so undeniable you couldnt refute it whatsoever, i refuse to believe someone who writes this nonsense has any nuance to discuss anything and would not qualify for even the lowest tiers of discussion were there any requirements that forced accountability.
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On March 18 2017 15:40 FoxDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2017 16:49 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? You're right. I don't recognize how overpowered SH vs mech are. The only thing i recognize is that mech players are biased more than ISIS extremists about destroying infidels. User was warned for this post This right here is why i say we need a league lock for posting about balance, you dont even make an attempt to support your opinion with facts instead you simply attack the person writing to deflect something you found so undeniable you couldnt refute it whatsoever, i refuse to believe someone who writes this nonsense has any nuance to discuss anything and would not qualify for even the lowest tiers of discussion were there any requirements that forced accountability.
This whole topic as many others about "mech not being viable" is my proof that I'm right. You people are stubborn as hell in your demands to make mech turtle style unbeatable. Every counter other race have-must be nerfed or removed. If Blizzard removed SH as you all want, they would have to tone down mech units overall. Then you would cry about Hydras and Roaches too strong and to remove Vipers. It's endless circle of salt and tears. You will never be satisfied until mech will be autowin composition. And that sickens me because from my point of view Mech is pretty much viable. But not as 4th race. Every race have to mix army compositions depending on situation. Terran should not be "special case". To be honest I'm glad that Blizzard is not willing to design game basing on your statements. It would be really dead then.
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On March 18 2017 17:35 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2017 15:40 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 16:49 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? You're right. I don't recognize how overpowered SH vs mech are. The only thing i recognize is that mech players are biased more than ISIS extremists about destroying infidels. User was warned for this post This right here is why i say we need a league lock for posting about balance, you dont even make an attempt to support your opinion with facts instead you simply attack the person writing to deflect something you found so undeniable you couldnt refute it whatsoever, i refuse to believe someone who writes this nonsense has any nuance to discuss anything and would not qualify for even the lowest tiers of discussion were there any requirements that forced accountability. This whole topic as many others about "mech not being viable" is my proof that I'm right. You people are stubborn as hell in your demands to make mech turtle style unbeatable. Every counter other race have-must be nerfed or removed. If Blizzard removed SH as you all want, they would have to tone down mech units overall. Then you would cry about Hydras and Roaches too strong and to remove Vipers. It's endless circle of salt and tears. You will never be satisfied until mech will be autowin composition. And that sickens me because from my point of view Mech is pretty much viable. But not as 4th race. Every race have to mix army compositions depending on situation. Terran should not be "special case". To be honest I'm glad that Blizzard is not willing to design game basing on your statements. It would be really dead then.
Maybe you are the stubborn one. It has been said countless times in these threads that Mech players want it to be more aggressive so they can push out, not more turtly. Also turtling is a viable tactic in RTS games (ofc it shouldn´t be like the disaster during the Swarmhost/Raven era) so you just have to deal with it. There are 4 core strategies that always should work in RTS games:
- Rushing (focusing on early attacks and harass)
- Turtling (focusing on economy and strong defense)
- Guerilla (sneaky attacks that can catch the opponent off guard)
- Steamroll (Teching early to high tech Units)
All these strategies interact with each other. If the opponent turtles you rush. If the opponent goes for guerilla tactics you turtle etc, etc. All these styles should have counters for a healthy game.
We DO NOT WANT an unbeatable composition. We just want Mech to be a healthy option because it´s part of the Terran race. Fyi terran´s are Humans. And Humans do use Mechanical warfare even in real life. This doesn´t make it a 4th race.
For example: During the redesign Blizz said they want the Thor to be the main Anti-air Unit. How is this supposed to work with a Unit that is big, slow with a long production time and high cost? A main AA Unit has to be responsive not so slow to produce that the opponent can outnumber you with the air Units you want to counter before you have enough to shoot them down.
Another problem with this threads is when they see "Mech" they immediately think of avilo as if he would be the only Mech player. They only see his playstyle and think that´s all what Mech should be: Never attack. Ofc this is NOT what Mech should be. Yes it is more defensive and takes a bit time to ramp up and that´s totally fine. But there should be a time in the match where the meching player can and should push out, like a wall thats get closer and closer but still not uncounterable.
Please guys do yourself a favor and get out of this mindset "You just want an A-move comp, turtle forever" etc. And please stop thinking of only avilo when you think about Mech. You could even go so far and blame him that people are so against Mech because of his playstyle. There are so many better Mech players like:
- Goody
Very strong game sense. While he is defensive he is also capable of being aggressive and pushes out when he sees the opportunity, like when he succesfully repeled an attack.
- HTOMario
Very, very strong macro and also quite good micro if needed.
Im sure there are more but just stop hating on us that just want Mech a little bit better and thinking everyone wants to be an avilo. Instead of constantly jumping on the hate train you should discuss how we, or Blizz, could make it better without mech becoming an unbeatable style. Because, and i can only repeat this, that´s not what we want.
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On March 18 2017 18:51 Tresher wrote:
Another problem with this threads is when they see "Mech" they immediately think of avilo as if he would be the only Mech player. They only see his playstyle and think that´s all what Mech should be: Never attack. Ofc this is NOT what Mech should be. Yes it is more defensive and takes a bit time to ramp up and that´s totally fine. But there should be a time in the match where the meching player can and should push out, like a wall thats get closer and closer but still not uncounterable.
Please guys do yourself a favor and get out of this mindset "You just want an A-move comp, turtle forever" etc. And please stop thinking of only avilo when you think about Mech. You could even go so far and blame him that people are so against Mech because of his playstyle.
I can definitely get behind this point 100%.
I'm zerg and i really don't mind playing vs mech. Dare I say that i even enjoyed it in the older expansions. Well the 1h+ games i can do without, but otherwise i really would like a mix of mech and bio. Even in the SH era in hots most games finished decently quick (at my level) and there were really not many games that i didn't enjoy playing. I even argued that blizzard should get mech viable at a certain point.
However...
As the discussion has been lately, with avilo and his followers leading the demands for mech, as you say, I found myself increasingly arguing that the mech people are a bunch of whiny entitled biased crybabies. I still really don't mind playing vs mech but the posts some make here on TL in favour of mech... 
So yeah, avilo presents himself, even in this thread, as the champion of mech, and of healthy StarCraft 2 gameplay in general, but for me he really has the opposite effect. For the sensible mech players, maybe first step is to distance yourself from avilo (as you do in your post). Then i think you'll have an easier time reaching a wider demographic. Otherwise, as you say, people will project the entire avilo fanboy stereotype on you.
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On March 18 2017 14:59 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2017 05:57 Charoisaur wrote:On March 18 2017 05:07 reneg wrote:On March 18 2017 04:41 Phaenoman wrote:On March 17 2017 16:49 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? You're right. I don't recognize how overpowered SH vs mech are. The only thing i recognize is that mech players are biased more than ISIS extremists about destroying infidels. User was warned for this post Seriously, your attitude... On March 18 2017 04:25 blunderfulguy wrote:On March 17 2017 14:59 FoxDog wrote:On March 17 2017 14:51 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2017 14:28 FoxDog wrote:
yeah atleast make them require hive for the flying ability, atm you get boxed in on 3 base and then z takes bases while you die slowly
its just swarmhosts and carriers, both which received mad buffs in the "mech patch 3.8" just revert those buffs and the game would be fine imo. Yeah. But in the same time reverse Blinding Cloud nerf. Because with SH back to "dead unit" state, Zerg would have nothing to break lines of buffed tanks and thors. say WHAT? it wouldnt be dead it would just require ~100 more seconds, if you had any idea how underpowered mech is against the swarmhosts you would say not only shouldnt they be able to fly, but the swarmhost cost should be increased as well as they are nigh uncatchable with their new speed buff are you serious you think zerg cant win without the super powerful new swarmhost? even after hydra corruptor and queen buffs? "If you had ANY idea how underpowered Zerglings are against Banelings-" Oh wait. Hmm. Some units have counters in a strategy game like StarCraft, it's just mech players who don't want that to exist for them and complain nonstop despite the pages upon pages of reasoning as to why mech and SHs are the way they are and why that's good for the game and is not a serious issue that needs to be addresses this very second. A counter should have a counter as well. How do you best play vs SH? Apparently you know the answer. Enlighten us. What do you consider to be a regular counter to mech? Let's play TheoryCraft right now - if SH were removed tomorrow, what would the most appropriate answer to mech be? We don't need to theorycraft for that. Koreans often play without swarmhost and seem to do ok with roach hydra viper -> broodlord. Maybe mech would be slightly to strong if SH were removed but some numbers can always be adjusted. So how does "Koreans often play without swarm hosts" fit with the narrative in this thread that swarm hosts are OP?
I'm not sure why they are so reluctant to use swarmhosts.
Maybe they just don't have much practice with them and want to stick to strategies they feel more comfortable with.
Or maybe there are some timings that can kill a Zerg going for Swarmhosts.
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Discussing with people that are on a crusade against mech (often because they're butthurt loosing to it on ladder) is like discussing with an SJW. You can say anything you want, they won't listen to your arguments and will just mindlessly repeat "but you're a white male you can't talk about that"/"but you're a mech player you can't talk about that".
More seriously, mech is really weak right now because hydras and corrus are very good units against mech.
Hydras aren't that much of an issue because they still die in two tank shots with +2, but that means you're forced into going relatively fast upgrades.
But the Corruptor buff is quite extreme against mech : not only does it really buffs BL/corruptors army, but it also means that a mech player using air units support can't really go out on the map without a full air transition, because corruptors will just stroll through, ignore what AA you can get, kill all your ravens/liberators/banshees, and get out. All of this much faster.
And meanwhile, SH/abducts are still very oppressive issues mech faces that haven't been adressed at all.
Everything zerg has seems designed so that the mech player can't go out on the map :
- can't really fight an hydra concave without +2
- can't fight locust waves without lots of AA/lots of ravens/an overwhelming amount of tanks hellbats that means you're pretty much allin
- can't get out on the map and face abducts
- can't really push with a ground force supported by few air units since corruptors will just swoop in and kill off your air support
So we're back to the HOTS meta where as a mech player the best and only reliable strategy is to do nothing but mass ravens, with extremely few options to move out and fight on the map with a mech army.
If you compare it to mech vs protoss, probably the only matchup where mech is truly viable right now, there's no protoss unit that really prevents the mech player from moving out. At any point in the game, you can move out and take a fight without knowing you're gonna get crushed if you don't have 20 turrets around yourself.
The only exception is mass phenixes straight into skytoss which can be punished by pushing out with few SCVs and thors.
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On March 18 2017 21:32 JackONeill wrote:
Discussing with people that are on a crusade against mech (often because they're butthurt loosing to it on ladder)
So...mech is viable in your view. Good to know. Thanks for clarifying.
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On March 18 2017 21:32 JackONeill wrote:
Discussing with people that are on a crusade against mech (often because they're butthurt loosing to it on ladder) is like discussing with an SJW. You can say anything you want, they won't listen to your arguments and will just mindlessly repeat "but you're a white male you can't talk about that"/"but you're a mech player you can't talk about that".
More seriously, mech is really weak right now because hydras and corrus are very good units against mech.
Hydras aren't that much of an issue because they still die in two tank shots with +2, but that means you're forced into going relatively fast upgrades.
But the Corruptor buff is quite extreme against mech : not only does it really buffs BL/corruptors army, but it also means that a mech player using air units support can't really go out on the map without a full air transition, because corruptors will just stroll through, ignore what AA you can get, kill all your ravens/liberators/banshees, and get out. All of this much faster.
And meanwhile, SH/abducts are still very oppressive issues mech faces that haven't been adressed at all.
Everything zerg has seems designed so that the mech player can't go out on the map :
- can't really fight an hydra concave without +2
- can't fight locust waves without lots of AA/lots of ravens/an overwhelming amount of tanks hellbats that means you're pretty much allin
- can't get out on the map and face abducts
- can't really push with a ground force supported by few air units since corruptors will just swoop in and kill off your air support
So we're back to the HOTS meta where as a mech player the best and only reliable strategy is to do nothing but mass ravens, with extremely few options to move out and fight on the map with a mech army.
If you compare it to mech vs protoss, probably the only matchup where mech is truly viable right now, there's no protoss unit that really prevents the mech player from moving out. At any point in the game, you can move out and take a fight without knowing you're gonna get crushed if you don't have 20 turrets around yourself.
The only exception is mass phenixes straight into skytoss which can be punished by pushing out with few SCVs and thors.
You're like Zerg can produce SH, vipers and corruptors, Broodlords on pool tech...
If Zerg gets this units easily it's just because you camp at home, let him do whatever he wants.
Are you aware than balance discussion are meant to produce a MU where each player have 50% of winning ?
All i see from you is asking mech to have 100% winrate with removing all the mech counters.
And you're asking why everyone dislike mech players ?
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On March 18 2017 23:05 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2017 21:32 JackONeill wrote:
Discussing with people that are on a crusade against mech (often because they're butthurt loosing to it on ladder)
So...mech is viable in your view. Good to know. Thanks for clarifying.
Adorable but silly. If you think that because you're loosing to it on the ladder it's viable, ask platinium players to come up and say masters level full lings play is viable.
And to anticipate your next argument "yeah but korean terrans are winning with mech", take a look at the entirety of pro play (and not some cheese based meta played only korea), how bio is still 95% of terran games everywhere on the pro scene, and you'll find that mech is extremely rarely played (because it's not really viable).
So nice try... but nope.
On March 18 2017 23:20 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2017 21:32 JackONeill wrote:
Discussing with people that are on a crusade against mech (often because they're butthurt loosing to it on ladder) is like discussing with an SJW. You can say anything you want, they won't listen to your arguments and will just mindlessly repeat "but you're a white male you can't talk about that"/"but you're a mech player you can't talk about that".
More seriously, mech is really weak right now because hydras and corrus are very good units against mech.
Hydras aren't that much of an issue because they still die in two tank shots with +2, but that means you're forced into going relatively fast upgrades.
But the Corruptor buff is quite extreme against mech : not only does it really buffs BL/corruptors army, but it also means that a mech player using air units support can't really go out on the map without a full air transition, because corruptors will just stroll through, ignore what AA you can get, kill all your ravens/liberators/banshees, and get out. All of this much faster.
And meanwhile, SH/abducts are still very oppressive issues mech faces that haven't been adressed at all.
Everything zerg has seems designed so that the mech player can't go out on the map :
- can't really fight an hydra concave without +2
- can't fight locust waves without lots of AA/lots of ravens/an overwhelming amount of tanks hellbats that means you're pretty much allin
- can't get out on the map and face abducts
- can't really push with a ground force supported by few air units since corruptors will just swoop in and kill off your air support
So we're back to the HOTS meta where as a mech player the best and only reliable strategy is to do nothing but mass ravens, with extremely few options to move out and fight on the map with a mech army.
If you compare it to mech vs protoss, probably the only matchup where mech is truly viable right now, there's no protoss unit that really prevents the mech player from moving out. At any point in the game, you can move out and take a fight without knowing you're gonna get crushed if you don't have 20 turrets around yourself.
The only exception is mass phenixes straight into skytoss which can be punished by pushing out with few SCVs and thors.
You're like Zerg can produce SH, vipers and corruptors, Broodlords on pool tech... If Zerg gets this units easily it's just because you camp at home, let him do whatever he wants. Are you aware than balance discussion are meant to produce a MU where each player have 50% of winning ? All i see from you is asking mech to have 100% winrate with removing all the mech counters. And you're asking why everyone dislike mech players ?
So you're arguing that "if he gets there it's normal he wins because you turtled" and that mech players turtling is a horrible thing, but zerg turtle and never gets out on the map it's perfectly fine he auto-wins if the opponent never attacked?
Holy cow, the logic. "If i turtle and auto win it's fine, but if the opponent does it with mech it's an outrage !".
By the way thanks for proving my point man. "And you're asking why everyone dislike mech players ?" => not arguing the point, arguing how the other guy is terrible for playing a style.
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Zerg can't turtle, they need one more base than the other, and there is no strong static defense nor high range units like tanks.
It's just they CAN'T ATTACK Terran before SH/Hive tech, else they would lose all their units without killing nothing.
But if you want to propose a change to allow zerg to attack a PF + tank line on pre lair tech do it.
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So let me get this straight. If i want to buff mech I'm ISIS. If i don't, I'm a SJW. Did I get that right?
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On March 19 2017 00:12 Tyrhanius wrote:
Zerg can't turtle, they need one more base than the other, and there is no strong static defense nor high range units like tanks.
It's just they CAN'T ATTACK Terran before SH/Hive tech, else they would lose all their units without killing nothing.
But if you want to propose a change to allow zerg to attack a PF + tank line on pre lair tech do it.
Zerg can't turtle. That has to be the funniest thing i've read since "MSC defense takes skill".
On March 19 2017 00:13 Cascade wrote:
So let me get this straight. If i want to buff mech I'm ISIS. If i don't, I'm a SJW. Did I get that right?
Nah, it's more "if you argue the point, you're discussing, but if you try his intentions based on what you're imagining is his "hidden point/bias" is, you're wasting everybody's time".
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On March 19 2017 00:19 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2017 00:12 Tyrhanius wrote:
Zerg can't turtle, they need one more base than the other, and there is no strong static defense nor high range units like tanks.
It's just they CAN'T ATTACK Terran before SH/Hive tech, else they would lose all their units without killing nothing.
But if you want to propose a change to allow zerg to attack a PF + tank line on pre lair tech do it. Zerg can't turtle. That has to be the funniest thing i've read since "MSC defense takes skill".
As funny as mech players are objective, skilled and don't spam forum with "buff me" every 3 days.
You just hear to cry, but you try to make it "sophisticated".
Zerg can't break a sieged tank line without SH/vipers/broodlords, and of course you ask for nerf of these units.
I'm surprised you don't ask tanks shoot up, it will solve all "the mech problem".
Why instead of spamming everyday forum of your mech whine, don't you create your own balance test map where you put the change you want ?
Everyone could see if your solution for mech are good or not then, and it's much more constructive than annoying everyone with your daily mech whine.
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So, you're blaming mech players for advocating for buffs and design changes to make the style they like viable very frequently... but you're in the front line each and everytime to say so to spend countless hours discrediting them.
Either you have a lot of time to waste, either you are clicking on threads you don't want to read a lot.
And once again, i think i won't tire of repeating it, but your entire argument is "you're a mech player you want to turtle and nerf the anti turtle options". Which has never been my point, because :
- the SH isn't an anti turtle option against mech, it especially forces more turtle. (see Ryung vs Leenock at GSL, I think)
- the viper isn't an anti turtle unit, it forces the mech player to hide behind turrets in fear of abducts. Which is the definition of mech turtle.
- and the BL, the only unit that really doesn't force any turtle play from the mech player, and by an incredible coincidence, it's one of the units i'd like to get buffed.
On January 30 2017 07:13 JackONeill wrote:the broodlord needs to be buffed so that if the terran player stays on a ground army for too long, zerg can punish it with superior economy by taking the fight to the air (buff back to 11 range so that thors have a little more trouble fighting them).
So please, now please explain on what is based your constant ranting but "he's a mech players so i'm gonna invent what i think his point is and fight it".
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So zerg must wait lair, infest pit, hive, spire, great spire to counter tanks ?
In reality you want to make a pre-broodlords tanks/thor/hellbats timing where Zerg can't counter them...
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EPT
