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On March 19 2017 01:53 Tyrhanius wrote:
So zerg must wait lair, infest pit, hive, spire, great spire to counter tanks ?
In reality you want to make a pre-broodlords tanks/thor/hellbats timing where Zerg can't counter them...
You need T3 to counter T2? Yes, it can happen. I need thors as a mech player to counter mutas. Is this outrageous?
And please, you didn't answer my questions. I'm waiting.
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On March 19 2017 01:59 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2017 01:53 Tyrhanius wrote:
So zerg must wait lair, infest pit, hive, spire, great spire to counter tanks ?
In reality you want to make a pre-broodlords tanks/thor/hellbats timing where Zerg can't counter them...
You need T3 to counter T2? Yes, it can happen. I need thors as a mech player to counter mutas. Is this outrageous? And please, you didn't answer my questions. I'm waiting.
Are you kidding, T2 terran is faster than teching to lair...
And Thors are easier to get than baneling speed...
Can't have broodlords before 12 minutes...while you can start massing tanks at 5min...
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On March 19 2017 01:53 Tyrhanius wrote:
So zerg must wait lair, infest pit, hive, spire, great spire to counter tanks ?
In reality you want to make a pre-broodlords tanks/thor/hellbats timing where Zerg can't counter them...
you know that if the winrates aren't 50/50 there will be patches so your fear that Zerg won't be able to counter mech pushes is unfounded. But yes, mech players want to be able to push in the midgame.
Roach hydra viper should work fine against earlier pushes and when the mech army reaches 200+ supply you can switch to broodlords or pull the mech army apart with multiprong.
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One thing I don't get, and perhaps there is a reason and I just don't know so please enlighten me: why do Terran players feel entitled to playing pure Mech?
What other race tries to play with units purely off of 1 building/tech tree for the entire game? When was this ever an option?
Don't bring up BW mech because it's simply not relevant. I can understand why people would want to play BW mech in SC2, but that's a fallacious premise to base your arguments upon.
What I see from what Mech players want is a strategy that encompasses all of the following:
1. Can safely skip bio, or get a handful of bio at most, and progress to more expensive units.
2. Can safely expand despite having a low amount of these expensive T2 units.
3. Also has the option of being aggressive during this time.
4. Can therefore theoretically win at any stage of the game, or at least gain an insurmountable advantage "if used properly."
5. Not be countered by units that are on equal or higher tech tree, nor be overwhelmed by the inevitably larger amount of lower tier units.
6. Have an answer to to everything in the game.
Did I get it right?
Now, I know I said not to bring up BW Mech, but I will just for parallel's sake. Mech is really good in BW right? It is the absolute standard in TvT minus some early-game Wraith shenanigans, mid/late-game drops, and super-late-game air mass. It is the absolute standard in TvP minus the first few marines you make to secure an expansion and/or push your enemy, and two semi-all-in mid-game builds. It comes to fruition in the lategame of modern TvZ after an early- and mid- game heavy Bio.
So, the question is, why do mech players in SC2 think that their mech can work like BW mech, but EVEN BETTER? You can't go straight to mech in BW TvZ in most situations because frankly, you can't get enough mech units to beat Zerg mass. You have to transition from bio, do a super-all-in to do damage, or do strange confusing builds that start with 2 factory goliath into bio and then back to mech. So why is it that SC2 players seem to think that their mech units should give them the luxury of countering Zerg at every stage of the game, when that was never the case and probably should never be the case?
Mech players I think are missing one crucial thing: that this is a strategy game. Your strategy can't be "I always go mech," and you expect your opponent not to react. You make a move in chess, opponent makes a counter-move that puts your piece in danger, and you just ignore that fact and continue to jeopardize units despite being countered? That seems smart, let's just change the rules of chess real quick to accommodate you, potentially to the detriment of all other players.
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On March 19 2017 02:31 Jealous wrote:
One thing I don't get, and perhaps there is a reason and I just don't know so please enlighten me: why do Terran players feel entitled to playing pure Mech?
Well, when the question is if mech should be viable I think the biggest question we should ask ourselves is "would it be good for the game?"
This doesn't have anything to do with entitlement a lot of people just think that the answer to this question is "yes".
Protoss players want to have chargelot templar viable in tvp. Why? Because it would be good for the game.
Zerg players want to have Ling bane muta viable in zvt. Why? Because it's good for the game.
You are free to disagree that mech would be good for the game but keep in mind that the "mech" people want to have viable is aggressive timing-based mech play. Do you really think that would be bad for the game?
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On March 19 2017 02:27 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2017 01:53 Tyrhanius wrote:
So zerg must wait lair, infest pit, hive, spire, great spire to counter tanks ?
In reality you want to make a pre-broodlords tanks/thor/hellbats timing where Zerg can't counter them...
you know that if the winrates aren't 50/50 there will be patches so your fear that Zerg won't be able to counter mech pushes is unfounded. But yes, mech players want to be able to push in the midgame. Roach hydra viper should work fine against earlier pushes and when the mech army reaches 200+ supply you can switch to broodlords or pull the mech army apart with multiprong.
But they can push on mid game, never heard about Innovation/Gumiho/ryung ?
The dude just wants to push and never get beaten, so nerf SH/vipers (so roach/hydra vipers won't work), and the only unit that could counter would be a unit that is so long to reach that zerg can't get them on time.
And of course, broodlords is hard countered by ravens...
You know if avilo/JackOeneill and Co suggestions are made on the game, most Zerg will just stop playing...
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On March 19 2017 02:39 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2017 02:27 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2017 01:53 Tyrhanius wrote:
So zerg must wait lair, infest pit, hive, spire, great spire to counter tanks ?
In reality you want to make a pre-broodlords tanks/thor/hellbats timing where Zerg can't counter them...
you know that if the winrates aren't 50/50 there will be patches so your fear that Zerg won't be able to counter mech pushes is unfounded. But yes, mech players want to be able to push in the midgame. Roach hydra viper should work fine against earlier pushes and when the mech army reaches 200+ supply you can switch to broodlords or pull the mech army apart with multiprong. But they can push on mid game, never heard about Innovation/Gumiho/ryung ? The dude just wants to push and never get beaten, so nerf SH/vipers (so roach/hydra vipers won't work), and the only unit that could counter would be a unit that is so long to reach that zerg can't get them on time. And of course, broodlords is hard countered by ravens... You know if avilo/JackOeneill and Co suggestions are made on the game, most Zerg will just stop playing...
Well not all players that want mech to be viable share avilo's view.
Mech seems ok in tvz but I'm unsure what's the possible counterplay to Swarmhosts.
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On March 19 2017 02:38 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2017 02:31 Jealous wrote:
One thing I don't get, and perhaps there is a reason and I just don't know so please enlighten me: why do Terran players feel entitled to playing pure Mech?
Well, when the question is if mech should be viable I think the biggest question we should ask ourselves is "would it be good for the game?" This doesn't have anything to do with entitlement a lot of people just think that the answer to this question is "yes". Protoss players want to have chargelot templar viable in tvp. Why? Because it would be good for the game. Zerg players want to have Ling bane muta viable in zvt. Why? Because it's good for the game. You are free to disagree that mech would be good for the game but keep in mind that the "mech" people want to have viable is aggressive timing-based mech play. Do you really think that would be bad for the game?
I think that it shouldn't be a universal strategy equally applied to all match-ups. I don't think that the mech that they want vs. Zerg makes sense or is good for the game. What I would like to see in TvZ and in what mech players are asking for in TvZ is the ability to transition well in the late-game, or have the flexibility to do tricky strategies such as "fake mech" or "fake bio" so on and so forth.
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On March 19 2017 02:31 Jealous wrote:
One thing I don't get, and perhaps there is a reason and I just don't know so please enlighten me: why do Terran players feel entitled to playing pure Mech?
What other race tries to play with units purely off of 1 building/tech tree for the entire game? When was this ever an option?
Don't bring up BW mech because it's simply not relevant. I can understand why people would want to play BW mech in SC2, but that's a fallacious premise to base your arguments upon.
What I see from what Mech players want is a strategy that encompasses all of the following:
1. Can safely skip bio, or get a handful of bio at most, and progress to more expensive units.
2. Can safely expand despite having a low amount of these expensive T2 units.
3. Also has the option of being aggressive during this time.
4. Can therefore theoretically win at any stage of the game, or at least gain an insurmountable advantage "if used properly."
5. Not be countered by units that are on equal or higher tech tree, nor be overwhelmed by the inevitably larger amount of lower tier units.
6. Have an answer to to everything in the game.
Did I get it right?
Now, I know I said not to bring up BW Mech, but I will just for parallel's sake. Mech is really good in BW right? It is the absolute standard in TvT minus some early-game Wraith shenanigans, mid/late-game drops, and super-late-game air mass. It is the absolute standard in TvP minus the first few marines you make to secure an expansion and/or push your enemy, and two semi-all-in mid-game builds. It comes to fruition in the lategame of modern TvZ after an early- and mid- game heavy Bio.
So, the question is, why do mech players in SC2 think that their mech can work like BW mech, but EVEN BETTER? You can't go straight to mech in BW TvZ in most situations because frankly, you can't get enough mech units to beat Zerg mass. You have to transition from bio, do a super-all-in to do damage, or do strange confusing builds that start with 2 factory goliath into bio and then back to mech. So why is it that SC2 players seem to think that their mech units should give them the luxury of countering Zerg at every stage of the game, when that was never the case and probably should never be the case?
Mech players I think are missing one crucial thing: that this is a strategy game. Your strategy can't be "I always go mech," and you expect your opponent not to react. You make a move in chess, opponent makes a counter-move that puts your piece in danger, and you just ignore that fact and continue to jeopardize units despite being countered? That seems smart, let's just change the rules of chess real quick to accommodate you, potentially to the detriment of all other players.
This is really just the truth laid out in a non offensive way, completely agree, mech players seem obsessed with the idea that mech must be 100% viable at all stages of the game in all match ups and it must have no weaknesses until Hive tech. Meanwhile mech players don't want to just have an impenetrable defense, they also want the option of being extremely aggressive on demand if they want.
Very unreasonable and impossible to balance imo, as you said, even in BW where mech was very standard, most players outside of Flash couldn't just sit there, grab a third with minimal factory units and macro up unmolested. I don't see Protoss players able to go pure Robotics, they can go pure Skytoss but that's imbalanced and everyone knows it so that will be patched. I don't see Zerg able to make Roach/Hydra work vs bio, should that entire end of the spectrum be buffed merely so Zerg can have a bit more variety?
As I Zerg player I'd say no, just like I say no to anyone advocating that every comp must be as viable as then next, in BW there were standard ways to play, bio sucked outside of specific situations and mech was generally better, it's the opposite in SC2, stop listening to Avilo, he won't stop complaining about turtle mech not being unstoppable until he can start taking games off of Dark with 1/3 his apm and mechanics.
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On March 19 2017 02:31 Jealous wrote:
One thing I don't get, and perhaps there is a reason and I just don't know so please enlighten me: why do Terran players feel entitled to playing pure Mech?
What other race tries to play with units purely off of 1 building/tech tree for the entire game? When was this ever an option?
Don't bring up BW mech because it's simply not relevant. I can understand why people would want to play BW mech in SC2, but that's a fallacious premise to base your arguments upon.
What I see from what Mech players want is a strategy that encompasses all of the following:
1. Can safely skip bio, or get a handful of bio at most, and progress to more expensive units.
2. Can safely expand despite having a low amount of these expensive T2 units.
3. Also has the option of being aggressive during this time.
4. Can therefore theoretically win at any stage of the game, or at least gain an insurmountable advantage "if used properly."
5. Not be countered by units that are on equal or higher tech tree, nor be overwhelmed by the inevitably larger amount of lower tier units.
6. Have an answer to to everything in the game.
Did I get it right?
Now, I know I said not to bring up BW Mech, but I will just for parallel's sake. Mech is really good in BW right? It is the absolute standard in TvT minus some early-game Wraith shenanigans, mid/late-game drops, and super-late-game air mass. It is the absolute standard in TvP minus the first few marines you make to secure an expansion and/or push your enemy, and two semi-all-in mid-game builds. It comes to fruition in the lategame of modern TvZ after an early- and mid- game heavy Bio.
So, the question is, why do mech players in SC2 think that their mech can work like BW mech, but EVEN BETTER? You can't go straight to mech in BW TvZ in most situations because frankly, you can't get enough mech units to beat Zerg mass. You have to transition from bio, do a super-all-in to do damage, or do strange confusing builds that start with 2 factory goliath into bio and then back to mech. So why is it that SC2 players seem to think that their mech units should give them the luxury of countering Zerg at every stage of the game, when that was never the case and probably should never be the case?
Mech players I think are missing one crucial thing: that this is a strategy game. Your strategy can't be "I always go mech," and you expect your opponent not to react. You make a move in chess, opponent makes a counter-move that puts your piece in danger, and you just ignore that fact and continue to jeopardize units despite being countered? That seems smart, let's just change the rules of chess real quick to accommodate you, potentially to the detriment of all other players.
I feel like this is a legitimate interrogation :
Because of how terran tech works, if you go bio, you're gonna dump a lot of ressources into stim/production/medivacs/shield/concussive/bio upgrades. And you're forced to do so, because going for marines only with shields to support something else is crap, for instance. Some units work well without investing much in them : for exemple, banelings with speed only can be a very good adition to a zerg ranged build. They'll do less damage than with melee upgrades, but they'll still mainly do their job. Bio units are the complete opposite, you have to go for the "whole package".
With how the upgrades work (bio vs mech), how bio requires both tech lab and ebay upgrades, plus medivacs, you only have little cash to add other units to the mix. With terran, if you want to go bio, every other units in the terran tech tree is only there to support bio. Liberators, vikings, tanks, mines, they're all there to complement bio and you can't cut into the "getting bio up" budget.
This means that bio can only afford certain units, and that only certain units will ever be used with bio. You won't ever see efficient bio/cyclone play, because the marauder does a better job at it. Units used with bio are mainly units that do their job without heavy investment (mines/liberators), and that provide AoE damage or prevent ennemy AoE damage dealers to wreck bio (tanks/vikings).
Seeing only bio all the time means a lot of units won't be used. And bio is also the reason why we've seen 2 medivacs full of marines builds for a long long time : because bio doesn't allow a lot of diversity.
Mech isn't "getting everything out of a single prod building". It's just "not playing with stim". To use some units that don't synergize well with bio, and see what works against what. Mech players are often people that don't really like to do the same stuff every game. If you were forced to go roach-based comps every single game against terran or you'd die, you'd get tired of it really quickly, because you wouldn't be able to play with other units too.
Also, another problem is that with mech you can't switch back into bio. If there's a way for your opponent to "counter" mech, that means you can't go mech in the matchup. And if you can't go mech in a matchup, that means going bio, and probably the same composition (MMMM or MMMtanks) every single game.
If you want to see a matchup where mech is fun and fine, look at TvP. It's very fun to play mech because turtling is very bad. With the exception of skytoss or going for mass BCs, you won't gain anything from turtling because both protoss and terran have very effective way to break your turtle or to counter what late game units you're rushing. Also, in this matchup mech has the option to be agressive most of the time.
I think that what most mech players want isn't necessarly to go straight into late game units, or be able to produce everything from the factory. They just want mech play to be viable in every matchup, and be dynamic. For instance, the cyclone-based mech composition in TvP really isn't late-game orientated. If, instead for going into bio, mech players could go for cyclone/hellions for the early/mid game, into tanks/thors of the mid/late game, into skyterran for the very late game, most people would be glad. Because you'd have a non stim playstyle that also has different dynamic "stages" in most matchups.
On March 19 2017 02:11 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2017 01:59 JackONeill wrote:On March 19 2017 01:53 Tyrhanius wrote:
So zerg must wait lair, infest pit, hive, spire, great spire to counter tanks ?
In reality you want to make a pre-broodlords tanks/thor/hellbats timing where Zerg can't counter them...
You need T3 to counter T2? Yes, it can happen. I need thors as a mech player to counter mutas. Is this outrageous? And please, you didn't answer my questions. I'm waiting. Are you kidding, T2 terran is faster than teching to lair... And Thors are easier to get than baneling speed... Can't have broodlords before 12 minutes...while you can start massing tanks at 5min...
Still didn't answer my question. My my, it's just as if you had nothing pertinent whatsoever to say.
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Before this discussion gets out of hand (as always  ), I think everybody needs to take a step back and think about what Mech means in Starcraft.
No, Mech is not about building factory based compositions even though that is what the name implies. It's fundamentally about that kind of high speed chess which especially BW TvT is known for. Incidentally this playstyle is enabled by mech units in BW because of the power of Siege Tanks and Spider Mines. But, what matters is the playstyle itself: little drop play, minimal harassment and instead straight up battle lines trying to outposition your opponent until you gain the upper hand.
So, if you really want to discuss Mech you have to think about why this playstyle is impossible, not why or whether factory unit compositions are not viable. The simple reason is this: SC2 provides too many mechanisms for terrain evasion like warp-in, turbovacs and invincible nydus. Locust waves also evade terrain, but let's not backtrack to the SH discussion.
What I specifically want to point out is that without making terrain more controllable — using whatever unit composition or by nerfing whatever terrain evasion mechanism — Mech cannot and will not be viable. Bio will always be better simply because it doesn not require the same degree of terrain control as Mech. SC2 simply does not support the Mech playstyle.
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i handle swarmhosts with my mech game and i watch other mechers handle swarmhosts just fine. of course the claim is always that it takes 10x as much skill to battle the Swarmhosts.. so that winning against them is some kind of miracle.
i don't think Blizz is going to balance LotV at every level of play. it'll just be balanced at the top level. Terran is my favourite race. I play that race the most and yet its my lowest rank out of 4 races namely, Zerg, Protoss, Terran and Random. i still have fun any way.
i don't think its up to Blizzard to balance the game at 5,000 different play levels. and i'm just happy to the play the game because i don't hold any big identity with what my ladder rank is. so its a bit lower at Terran..whatever man.
i think at 125-APM//Diamond Zerg is easier to play than 125-APM//Diamond Terran and i'm fine with it. the game is still fun. even my evaluation might be wrong. however, at lower levels and low APMs 1 race is always slightly easier than another race. i don't care and i don't think the Blizzard team should be prioritizing this stuff.
if Masters and GMs who are below pro level and have never won a damn thing are experiencing imbalance i don't think its important either. They represent a very small population of players. same with me. i'm experiencing imbalance at my level. and it just doesn't matter.
Part of playing below top level in a diverse 3-race game is imbalance.
DISCLAIMER : i use 125 apm to describe my level of reaction time and speed of action in a very broad and vague sense to give a general idea of how quickly i'm doing stuff.
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Seems to me most terrans have gotten quite good at neutralizing locusts with hellbats. As long as they protect their siege line from locust flanks, it's rather hard to take on the mech ball. It usually takes about two remaxes on roach/ravager while slowly withdrawing towards home base to burn away the hellbats before the tank line is engagable in an efficient way (unless you're lucky and manage to sneak around the mech ball and get a locust swarm off at the separated tanks).
Tbh I didn't think swarm hosts were that much of a problem anymore. Or at least neutralized to the point where the game is settled through a series of trades where SH-hellbat/tanks interplay decides the outcome.
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SH is useless anyways, nerf it just to see what mechers will complain about next.
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On March 19 2017 02:31 Jealous wrote:
One thing I don't get, and perhaps there is a reason and I just don't know so please enlighten me: why do Terran players feel entitled to playing pure Mech?
What other race tries to play with units purely off of 1 building/tech tree for the entire game? When was this ever an option?
Don't bring up BW mech because it's simply not relevant. I can understand why people would want to play BW mech in SC2, but that's a fallacious premise to base your arguments upon.
What I see from what Mech players want is a strategy that encompasses all of the following:
1. Can safely skip bio, or get a handful of bio at most, and progress to more expensive units.
2. Can safely expand despite having a low amount of these expensive T2 units.
3. Also has the option of being aggressive during this time.
4. Can therefore theoretically win at any stage of the game, or at least gain an insurmountable advantage "if used properly."
5. Not be countered by units that are on equal or higher tech tree, nor be overwhelmed by the inevitably larger amount of lower tier units.
6. Have an answer to to everything in the game.
Did I get it right?
Now, I know I said not to bring up BW Mech, but I will just for parallel's sake. Mech is really good in BW right? It is the absolute standard in TvT minus some early-game Wraith shenanigans, mid/late-game drops, and super-late-game air mass. It is the absolute standard in TvP minus the first few marines you make to secure an expansion and/or push your enemy, and two semi-all-in mid-game builds. It comes to fruition in the lategame of modern TvZ after an early- and mid- game heavy Bio.
So, the question is, why do mech players in SC2 think that their mech can work like BW mech, but EVEN BETTER? You can't go straight to mech in BW TvZ in most situations because frankly, you can't get enough mech units to beat Zerg mass. You have to transition from bio, do a super-all-in to do damage, or do strange confusing builds that start with 2 factory goliath into bio and then back to mech. So why is it that SC2 players seem to think that their mech units should give them the luxury of countering Zerg at every stage of the game, when that was never the case and probably should never be the case?
Mech players I think are missing one crucial thing: that this is a strategy game. Your strategy can't be "I always go mech," and you expect your opponent not to react. You make a move in chess, opponent makes a counter-move that puts your piece in danger, and you just ignore that fact and continue to jeopardize units despite being countered? That seems smart, let's just change the rules of chess real quick to accommodate you, potentially to the detriment of all other players.
Besides what others said take this into consideration.
A rax can produce 4 units, 1 an only early game unit, other a lategame unit only used in very narrow scenarios, the other 2 units on the other hand are the only ones that are "core units".
Factories can produce 7 units, 7! these units have all kinds of roles, harass, AoE to to air, ground or both, meath shields, countering melee units, bonus vs armored, bonus vs light, even bonush vs shield. Yet all of those are barely used in many scenarios (we can see entire tournaments without a hellbat, cyclone or thor being built at all).
The starport is used in all scenarios and are, save the very rare sky terran build, always support units (wich is good, because mass air strats are fucking awful).
How come 2 units, 2 fucking units, out of a building, can harness the whole game design so much? They are good in all MUs, at all stages in the game and in every ocasion.
No zerg or toss units have this, no unit has so much power over the whole overview of the game, roaches lose value over time very fast, zerglings are always good but mostly as minerals dumps for speed, stalkers are good on ocasions and bad on others. A terran can have mass bio with 3-3 in the lategame and except for super expensive AoE units, they can chew through everything else.
The question then isn't why mech should be viable, considering mech encompases many units and comps, the question is:
"Is it really good design only 2 units (cuz reapers are made early game and mech uses ghosts too), ONLY 2 FUCKING DAMN UNITS can totally dominate every terran MU in all scenarios?"
Think about it, really do.
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On March 19 2017 09:15 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2017 02:31 Jealous wrote:
One thing I don't get, and perhaps there is a reason and I just don't know so please enlighten me: why do Terran players feel entitled to playing pure Mech?
What other race tries to play with units purely off of 1 building/tech tree for the entire game? When was this ever an option?
Don't bring up BW mech because it's simply not relevant. I can understand why people would want to play BW mech in SC2, but that's a fallacious premise to base your arguments upon.
What I see from what Mech players want is a strategy that encompasses all of the following:
1. Can safely skip bio, or get a handful of bio at most, and progress to more expensive units.
2. Can safely expand despite having a low amount of these expensive T2 units.
3. Also has the option of being aggressive during this time.
4. Can therefore theoretically win at any stage of the game, or at least gain an insurmountable advantage "if used properly."
5. Not be countered by units that are on equal or higher tech tree, nor be overwhelmed by the inevitably larger amount of lower tier units.
6. Have an answer to to everything in the game.
Did I get it right?
Now, I know I said not to bring up BW Mech, but I will just for parallel's sake. Mech is really good in BW right? It is the absolute standard in TvT minus some early-game Wraith shenanigans, mid/late-game drops, and super-late-game air mass. It is the absolute standard in TvP minus the first few marines you make to secure an expansion and/or push your enemy, and two semi-all-in mid-game builds. It comes to fruition in the lategame of modern TvZ after an early- and mid- game heavy Bio.
So, the question is, why do mech players in SC2 think that their mech can work like BW mech, but EVEN BETTER? You can't go straight to mech in BW TvZ in most situations because frankly, you can't get enough mech units to beat Zerg mass. You have to transition from bio, do a super-all-in to do damage, or do strange confusing builds that start with 2 factory goliath into bio and then back to mech. So why is it that SC2 players seem to think that their mech units should give them the luxury of countering Zerg at every stage of the game, when that was never the case and probably should never be the case?
Mech players I think are missing one crucial thing: that this is a strategy game. Your strategy can't be "I always go mech," and you expect your opponent not to react. You make a move in chess, opponent makes a counter-move that puts your piece in danger, and you just ignore that fact and continue to jeopardize units despite being countered? That seems smart, let's just change the rules of chess real quick to accommodate you, potentially to the detriment of all other players. Besides what others said take this into consideration. A rax can produce 4 units, 1 an only early game unit, other a lategame unit only used in very narrow scenarios, the other 2 units on the other hand are the only ones that are "core units". Factories can produce 7 units, 7! these units have all kinds of roles, harass, AoE to to air, ground or both, meath shields, countering melee units, bonus vs armored, bonus vs light, even bonush vs shield. Yet all of those are barely used in many scenarios (we can see entire tournaments without a hellbat, cyclone or thor being built at all). The starport is used in all scenarios and are, save the very rare sky terran build, always support units (wich is good, because mass air strats are fucking awful). How come 2 units, 2 fucking units, out of a building, can harness the whole game design so much? They are good in all MUs, at all stages in the game and in every ocasion. No zerg or toss units have this, no unit has so much power over the whole overview of the game, roaches lose value over time very fast, zerglings are always good but mostly as minerals dumps for speed, stalkers are good on ocasions and bad on others. A terran can have mass bio with 3-3 in the lategame and except for super expensive AoE units, they can chew through everything else. The question then isn't why mech should be viable, considering mech encompases many units and comps, the question is: "Is it really good design only 2 units (cuz reapers are made early game and mech uses ghosts too), ONLY 2 FUCKING DAMN UNITS can totally dominate every terran MU in all scenarios?"Think about it, really do.
Don't understand your point. Marines and Marauders are trash without medivacs, widow mines and liberators.
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On March 19 2017 09:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2017 09:15 Lexender wrote:On March 19 2017 02:31 Jealous wrote:
One thing I don't get, and perhaps there is a reason and I just don't know so please enlighten me: why do Terran players feel entitled to playing pure Mech?
What other race tries to play with units purely off of 1 building/tech tree for the entire game? When was this ever an option?
Don't bring up BW mech because it's simply not relevant. I can understand why people would want to play BW mech in SC2, but that's a fallacious premise to base your arguments upon.
What I see from what Mech players want is a strategy that encompasses all of the following:
1. Can safely skip bio, or get a handful of bio at most, and progress to more expensive units.
2. Can safely expand despite having a low amount of these expensive T2 units.
3. Also has the option of being aggressive during this time.
4. Can therefore theoretically win at any stage of the game, or at least gain an insurmountable advantage "if used properly."
5. Not be countered by units that are on equal or higher tech tree, nor be overwhelmed by the inevitably larger amount of lower tier units.
6. Have an answer to to everything in the game.
Did I get it right?
Now, I know I said not to bring up BW Mech, but I will just for parallel's sake. Mech is really good in BW right? It is the absolute standard in TvT minus some early-game Wraith shenanigans, mid/late-game drops, and super-late-game air mass. It is the absolute standard in TvP minus the first few marines you make to secure an expansion and/or push your enemy, and two semi-all-in mid-game builds. It comes to fruition in the lategame of modern TvZ after an early- and mid- game heavy Bio.
So, the question is, why do mech players in SC2 think that their mech can work like BW mech, but EVEN BETTER? You can't go straight to mech in BW TvZ in most situations because frankly, you can't get enough mech units to beat Zerg mass. You have to transition from bio, do a super-all-in to do damage, or do strange confusing builds that start with 2 factory goliath into bio and then back to mech. So why is it that SC2 players seem to think that their mech units should give them the luxury of countering Zerg at every stage of the game, when that was never the case and probably should never be the case?
Mech players I think are missing one crucial thing: that this is a strategy game. Your strategy can't be "I always go mech," and you expect your opponent not to react. You make a move in chess, opponent makes a counter-move that puts your piece in danger, and you just ignore that fact and continue to jeopardize units despite being countered? That seems smart, let's just change the rules of chess real quick to accommodate you, potentially to the detriment of all other players. Besides what others said take this into consideration. A rax can produce 4 units, 1 an only early game unit, other a lategame unit only used in very narrow scenarios, the other 2 units on the other hand are the only ones that are "core units". Factories can produce 7 units, 7! these units have all kinds of roles, harass, AoE to to air, ground or both, meath shields, countering melee units, bonus vs armored, bonus vs light, even bonush vs shield. Yet all of those are barely used in many scenarios (we can see entire tournaments without a hellbat, cyclone or thor being built at all). The starport is used in all scenarios and are, save the very rare sky terran build, always support units (wich is good, because mass air strats are fucking awful). How come 2 units, 2 fucking units, out of a building, can harness the whole game design so much? They are good in all MUs, at all stages in the game and in every ocasion. No zerg or toss units have this, no unit has so much power over the whole overview of the game, roaches lose value over time very fast, zerglings are always good but mostly as minerals dumps for speed, stalkers are good on ocasions and bad on others. A terran can have mass bio with 3-3 in the lategame and except for super expensive AoE units, they can chew through everything else. The question then isn't why mech should be viable, considering mech encompases many units and comps, the question is: "Is it really good design only 2 units (cuz reapers are made early game and mech uses ghosts too), ONLY 2 FUCKING DAMN UNITS can totally dominate every terran MU in all scenarios?"Think about it, really do. Don't understand your point. Marines and Marauders are trash without medivacs, widow mines and liberators.
Well medivacs, yes of course, the other maybe and maybe not. These units are good in certain MUs and in certain situations (you won't use WM in TvT or libs vs a roach ravager zerg) like most good units are.
The thing is people say "using only factory units (wich is a big falacy anyway because you still use rax units for early game and ghost for late game and of course starport units are a must) but are completely ok with only 2 units dominating the game (I didn't add medivacs because is commmon to get for mech in some scenarios, TvT needs them alot for hellbat dropping for example).
Yes its not so much as it was in HotS, where you will see players just massing bio, or losing all the support units and win with the mass bio remaining.
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On March 19 2017 09:50 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2017 09:28 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2017 09:15 Lexender wrote:On March 19 2017 02:31 Jealous wrote:
One thing I don't get, and perhaps there is a reason and I just don't know so please enlighten me: why do Terran players feel entitled to playing pure Mech?
What other race tries to play with units purely off of 1 building/tech tree for the entire game? When was this ever an option?
Don't bring up BW mech because it's simply not relevant. I can understand why people would want to play BW mech in SC2, but that's a fallacious premise to base your arguments upon.
What I see from what Mech players want is a strategy that encompasses all of the following:
1. Can safely skip bio, or get a handful of bio at most, and progress to more expensive units.
2. Can safely expand despite having a low amount of these expensive T2 units.
3. Also has the option of being aggressive during this time.
4. Can therefore theoretically win at any stage of the game, or at least gain an insurmountable advantage "if used properly."
5. Not be countered by units that are on equal or higher tech tree, nor be overwhelmed by the inevitably larger amount of lower tier units.
6. Have an answer to to everything in the game.
Did I get it right?
Now, I know I said not to bring up BW Mech, but I will just for parallel's sake. Mech is really good in BW right? It is the absolute standard in TvT minus some early-game Wraith shenanigans, mid/late-game drops, and super-late-game air mass. It is the absolute standard in TvP minus the first few marines you make to secure an expansion and/or push your enemy, and two semi-all-in mid-game builds. It comes to fruition in the lategame of modern TvZ after an early- and mid- game heavy Bio.
So, the question is, why do mech players in SC2 think that their mech can work like BW mech, but EVEN BETTER? You can't go straight to mech in BW TvZ in most situations because frankly, you can't get enough mech units to beat Zerg mass. You have to transition from bio, do a super-all-in to do damage, or do strange confusing builds that start with 2 factory goliath into bio and then back to mech. So why is it that SC2 players seem to think that their mech units should give them the luxury of countering Zerg at every stage of the game, when that was never the case and probably should never be the case?
Mech players I think are missing one crucial thing: that this is a strategy game. Your strategy can't be "I always go mech," and you expect your opponent not to react. You make a move in chess, opponent makes a counter-move that puts your piece in danger, and you just ignore that fact and continue to jeopardize units despite being countered? That seems smart, let's just change the rules of chess real quick to accommodate you, potentially to the detriment of all other players. Besides what others said take this into consideration. A rax can produce 4 units, 1 an only early game unit, other a lategame unit only used in very narrow scenarios, the other 2 units on the other hand are the only ones that are "core units". Factories can produce 7 units, 7! these units have all kinds of roles, harass, AoE to to air, ground or both, meath shields, countering melee units, bonus vs armored, bonus vs light, even bonush vs shield. Yet all of those are barely used in many scenarios (we can see entire tournaments without a hellbat, cyclone or thor being built at all). The starport is used in all scenarios and are, save the very rare sky terran build, always support units (wich is good, because mass air strats are fucking awful). How come 2 units, 2 fucking units, out of a building, can harness the whole game design so much? They are good in all MUs, at all stages in the game and in every ocasion. No zerg or toss units have this, no unit has so much power over the whole overview of the game, roaches lose value over time very fast, zerglings are always good but mostly as minerals dumps for speed, stalkers are good on ocasions and bad on others. A terran can have mass bio with 3-3 in the lategame and except for super expensive AoE units, they can chew through everything else. The question then isn't why mech should be viable, considering mech encompases many units and comps, the question is: "Is it really good design only 2 units (cuz reapers are made early game and mech uses ghosts too), ONLY 2 FUCKING DAMN UNITS can totally dominate every terran MU in all scenarios?"Think about it, really do. Don't understand your point. Marines and Marauders are trash without medivacs, widow mines and liberators. Well medivacs, yes of course, the other maybe and maybe not. These units are good in certain MUs and in certain situations (you won't use WM in TvT or libs vs a roach ravager zerg) like most good units are. The thing is people say "using only factory units (wich is a big falacy anyway because you still use rax units for early game and ghost for late game and of course starport units are a must) but are completely ok with only 2 units dominating the game (I didn't add medivacs because is commmon to get for mech in some scenarios, TvT needs them alot for hellbat dropping for example). Yes its not so much as it was in HotS, where you will see players just massing bio, or losing all the support units and win with the mass bio remaining.
Honestly a lot of the complaint as to why marines are so strong (and this has been a complaint that is a recurring river throughout the history of sc2) has to do with unit pathing and clumping. Marines, a small unit that is [moderately] quick clump together very nicely into tiny balls of damage output.
Sure, they then open themselves up to splash damage and whatnot, but they just pull themselves together in a way that BW marines never could. this allows for them to be incredibly versatile units.
But i do think everyone has said their piece; some people want mech to be stronger (and seem to be arguing what some other posters are: that they really want a 100% win-rate until brood lords come out); others want it to remain the same (hellbats do seem to be doing a great job at just murdering locusts when in the right position).
I'm not sure what additional action the people who necro this thread again and again really want us to take, since obviously blizzard seems to think that mech is in a usable state.
Blizzard seems to want to encourage [read: force] everyone to build large swaths of units. So that you see a little bit of everything in as many games as possible. We all know that this is largely unrealistic, but that seems to be what they want. And if you try to use only one building, they want to discourage that.
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I hope people realize if they made mech viable and toned down some of the OP anti-mech things like swarmhost/viper/carrier as well as in general giving mech a better anti-air unit...we'd see games where mech Terrans can macro off 5+ fact aka going up to around 7-10 factories for aggro all over the map.
The reason mech is near unplayable atm (unless you call turtle to mass ravens "mech") is because it's impossible to go past 5 factories and still have a chance to win the game past the 10 min mark.
If you go past 5 fact, Z/P and even T will just start amassing any amount of air units and you're screwed because there is no readily available factory AA unit that you can mass produce from 10 facts and play a macro game off of.
I've posted many times in the past the reason when mech is always viable it's TURTLE MECH that is viable is because there's no factory AA meaning even if you wanna attack it's never cost efficient and will cost you the game because you'll probably clear a hatchery/nexus at best and your entire army will get cleaned up by 3 carriers or broodlords.
Honestly mech can be made viable if they:
1) Give mech anti-air that trades vs carrier/tempest/BC/lib
2) Tone down/remove swarmhosts and carrier+air units in general
3) Stop nerfing mech units every patch and buffing anti-mech units every patch
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Same thing from you again and again and again and again, still ignoring all of the points brought up in this and several other threads about Factory-based strategies. You can't just demand buffs to cover all of your bases for every possible situation that you could ever be in when using a single strategy and small set of units on ladder. You demand that Mech function solely off of Factories and yet Bio doesn't solely use Barracks units in any stage of the game after a few minutes, and Terran armies and core army units in general are not designed to be effective against everything without proper supporting units (such as Marauders, Widow Mines, Siege Tanks, Medivacs, Vikings, and Ravens for Terran).
I suppose I'll also remind everyone that giving several buffs to the units that you want to use every game while nerfing multiple units you don't like from a highly subjective point of view without providing suggestions to keep the other races and playstyles balanced is not how game design works.
I've noticed that you like to use the argument of "If you do X and your opponent does Y then you're screwed because Z therefore I'm clearly justified in my demands", which is actually an argument that is used against demands to remove counters in a strategy game and is where much of the strategy itself comes from. It's also part of the meta in many games, RTS or otherwise. If you don't want Air units to exist just like how you don't want Swarm Hosts to exist just like how you don't want Brood Lords to exist because they are capable of winning against your strategy when you don't prepare for them, then you are either not understanding the game properly or you simply don't want to have to ever use more than one single strategy when playing or react to what you anticipate your opponent is doing.
I would suggest that you not play strategy games because you don't seem to want to be strategic whatsoever, your own personal time and energy would be better spent playing another game, perhaps another game in an entirely different genre. That's really what it comes down to, I think. However, if you really only want to make Factories and Mechanical units in StarCraft and refuse to try something different, either a different strategy, other army compositions, or a different game, then I would recommend 2v2 ladder, Co-op or the Arcade instead of 1v1 ladder. The type of gameplay you're asking for is much more possible with much less stress in those game modes, and as for other games you might be better off with Company of Heroes, a Dawn of War game, or a possibly single player Action RPG, something in which you can get the satisfaction you're chasing and get rewarded by a game that was designed to reward something you want to do without being stressed that the game you're playing and a very large percentage of its community have been trying to step away from what you want for several years.
Oh, and how many times to have to say what the word viable means? Mech is viable. There is evidence that it is viable. I have provided evidence on multiple occasions in multiple threads, as have several other people, and you yourself do on your own stream when you win matches but pretend you don't, which seems odd but I digress.
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