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All right. This has to be written here on TL by somebody otherwise i can't in good conscience say i did everything in my power to not let SC2 die.
I'm hoping TL staff can see this thread as what it is - a needed criticizing of the most recent SC2 patch and perhaps also criticizing a lot of incompetency when it's come to SC2 multiplayer balance patching.
We all waited over a year for not only a patch for mech viability, but a patch to many other things. The problem is this patch has made the game objectively worse again and not addressed the problems it was supposed to.
Swarmhosts are taking over the game again in many instances, and the impetus for me making this thread is playing a bio game where even swarmhosts started to take over the game.
Mech is not viable with the swarmhost in the game in almost any capacity. Protoss is not viable with swarmhosts in the game in their current state. Free units should not be promoted at all in SC2 and this patch has killed mech with a single unit.
Previously, in Heart of the Swarm, you could deal with swarmhosts because the locusts did NOT FLY DIRECTLY INTO YOUR BASE and also swarmhosts did not move at the speed of light.
On the current patch swarmhosts are as cheap as a marauder for some reason and are un-catchable. If you opt for mech, and the Zerg sees, he'll simply make 10 swarmhosts that provide FREE MONEY every 30 seconds. This is not RTS gameplay - it's objectively bad for the game and we don't need a year to see the game become 100% bio play again for Terran because of this unit.
With that said, raven auto-turret is a similar issue, as are carriers. These all basically give "free units" aka interceptors, locusts...most P games that get to carriers are a stomp by the Protoss side because there's not really any unit from any race that can beat carriers cost for cost.
It's understandable to want units to be viable, but not to the point that they ruin the game and make it frustrating to play.
As a player that opts for mech most of my games, it's infuriating right now on the current patch that we waited for for years, to have almost 99% of my games be versus someone massing swarmhosts every game into whatever they want because they have 5k/5k+ banked from free money.
I honestly think if something this blatantly broken is not addressed it's going to continue negatively affecting the game. Starcraft 2 is supposed to have multiple viable strategies, and this is pushing Terran to go only back to bio every game and 16 marine drop. You get punished for even trying mech right now, or you're forced to play a 50 min game and pray you get to 30 ravens to fight versus the swarmhost free locusts.
For waiting a year, and for blizzard to put out a patch that was supposed to "make mech viable" this patch and swarmhosts are basically a slap in the face to a lot of people that play the game after all this time hoping for some competency or blizzard listening to feedback when it comes to patching.
I'm hoping other people that play mech a lot can get this thread to get some traction so blizzard can address swarmhosts. The swarmhost is now more absurd than it was in Heart of the Swarm.
Back then locusts could not fly into your base, and swarmhosts were slow.
Please discuss this. I'm hoping people will understand SC2 is a strategy game and is not meant to be a 16 marine drop every single game with the spectators and viewers knowing exactly what will happen before the game ever even begins.
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I agree that it doesn't make sense to do the SH buff in the same patch that was supposed to make mech viable but your whiny tone will probably make a lot of people dismiss your post.
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You forgot to mention that the recent BC ability change is completely garbage. Teleport functions do not belong in RTS. I agree with swarm hosts, they are terrible for the game in their current state.
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I have to agree with Avilo, SH attack is way too powerful for the cost of the unit, it shouldn't fly like that
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
Protoss is not viable with swarmhosts in the game in their current state.
...what?
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I agree that it doesn't make sense to do the SH buff in the same patch that was supposed to make mech viable
''Making mech viable'' doesn't mean ''making mech unbeatable'', Zerg needs a relatively cheap counter to mech in the mid game = SwarmHosts.
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On January 04 2017 11:25 OverlordisOPkappa wrote:Show nested quote +I agree that it doesn't make sense to do the SH buff in the same patch that was supposed to make mech viable ''Making mech viable'' doesn't mean ''making mech unbeatable'', Zerg needs a relatively cheap counter to mech in the mid game = SwarmHosts.
Swarm hosts are an unbeatable hard counter to mech. The moment zerg finds out you are meching(no later than 4 minutes into a game), they just make 6-12 swarm hosts to buy themselves enough time to bank enough money to remax infinitely(slight exaggeration here). It literally makes Mech not viable in tvz unless you are playing vs someone who doesn't know what swarm hosts are.
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On January 04 2017 11:25 OverlordisOPkappa wrote:Show nested quote +I agree that it doesn't make sense to do the SH buff in the same patch that was supposed to make mech viable ''Making mech viable'' doesn't mean ''making mech unbeatable'', Zerg needs a relatively cheap counter to mech in the mid game = SwarmHosts.
doesnt mean getting shat on by a single unit either imo.
sadly avilo is sc2's version of the boy who cried wolf.
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I read the title and I thought "why someone would necropost an Avilo's balance whine thread of 2013?"
I read the thread, saw the date, and laughed so hard. Like, come on, this guy still whines after all these years?
Some things never change, I guess.
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How about everyone debates the issue that may or may not need to be fixed?
Bashing his character doesn't change the way the game is being played. You can dislike him and agree with him or vice/versa.
I am not very good, but from watching grandmasters play I do believe the speed of the swarmhost is the major issue here.
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Also to add...i don't think a lot of people even know about this issue yet because there haven't been many tournaments on the current patch, and most Terrans still go bio for the majority of their games.
I get that not everyone wants every game to be mech 100% either...but imagine if banelings were given another 50 extra HP on top of what they were already given. Bio would be unplayable because of 1 unit. That's kind of analogous to the situation here.
If you opt for mech, the guy just starts making swarmhosts and collects free cash for 20 minutes.
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When some GM Korean SC2 players talk, I listen. Otherwise, yeah bye.
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On January 04 2017 12:52 avilo wrote:
Also to add...i don't think a lot of people even know about this issue yet because there haven't been many tournaments on the current patch, and most Terrans still go bio for the majority of their games.
I get that not everyone wants every game to be mech 100% either...but imagine if banelings were given another 50 extra HP on top of what they were already given. Bio would be unplayable because of 1 unit. That's kind of analogous to the situation here.
If you opt for mech, the guy just starts making swarmhosts and collects free cash for 20 minutes.
Plenty of Terrans like Innovation and Gumiho have been making mech work, just not your "turtle for 30 minutes and mass Ravens" style. They focus on more mobile units like Hellions, Cyclones, and Banshees and end the game in around 10 minutes.
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So much focus is taken away from the actual point at issue, only because the author is avilo. Sad to see.
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On January 04 2017 13:01 jamella wrote:
So much focus is taken away from the actual point at issue, only because the author is avilo. Sad to see.
QFT.
People just rant and make snarky comments just because its Avilo. "git gud" " you are not korean" etc, its sad to see.
The swarmhost is a difficult unit to balance, makeing it too expensive and no one will use it, make it too cheap and people mass it. Perhaps, since its so difficult to balance, maybe remove it like they did with the warhound (wink wink wink). Its not like zerg cant defeat mech at all since LOTV.
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On January 04 2017 12:56 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 12:52 avilo wrote:
Also to add...i don't think a lot of people even know about this issue yet because there haven't been many tournaments on the current patch, and most Terrans still go bio for the majority of their games.
I get that not everyone wants every game to be mech 100% either...but imagine if banelings were given another 50 extra HP on top of what they were already given. Bio would be unplayable because of 1 unit. That's kind of analogous to the situation here.
If you opt for mech, the guy just starts making swarmhosts and collects free cash for 20 minutes. Plenty of Terrans like Innovation and Gumiho have been making mech work, just not your "turtle for 30 minutes and mass Ravens" style. They focus on more mobile units like Hellions, Cyclones, and Banshees and end the game in around 10 minutes.
The mech that inno is currently doing focus on one unit: Cyclone monobattle. But sure that's great. Tons of interesting micro relation with Zerg units too.
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I've been saying since the patch that SH are currently too powerful. However since they're a weird unit that won't see much use for a while in pro play - they probably won't be nerfed for a long time. Gotta encourage those pros to abuse the imba!
So far I haven't seen them used super abusively just yet, looking forward to seeing some "broken" builds of it though.
Not much to add to the mech discussion. A super slow style that involves camping kinda goes against the fast paced nature of the game. I'm fine with it being just an alternative style that can be played aggressively through the midgame but falls off at some point if your only plan is to camp.
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it true...
When i try to play Bio Zerg go SH and gangbang my base with locust
And if i play vs toss they just Immo Archon Disruptor and I die cost of lategame carriere who are hard to kill
SC begin to be dead since LOTV (for me)
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On January 04 2017 13:30 Zacrophage wrote:
it true...
When i try to play Bio Zerg go SH and gangbang my base with locust
And if i play vs toss they just Immo Archon Disruptor and I die cost of lategame carriere who are hard to kill
SC begin to be dead since LOTV (for me)
Let's be honest, this game is already dead and not only for you.
This game is too frustrating and not fun for most players at this point. I doubt it will change anytime soon.
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I don't think anybody would disagree that swarmhosts are a little too strong this patch, but like, that was the point, no?
They have been virtually unusable units for over a year, so blizzard made them significantly cheaper and even said in the patch notes that they were ready to up the resource costs if they seemed overpowered. The primary purpose of the change was to encourage their use to see if from a game design perspective, they were doing as intended.
Having played with them a couple dozen times, I have had a lot of fun with them and think they have become a cool versatile unit. are they too strong against mech? yes. But that's something that can be addressed with a minor price increase, not a huge post about them being ridiculously overpowered with the sort of toxic language that brings all the deadgame people, like the posters above me, out of the woods.
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EPT
