EPTBut I guess on tier 1 core units thats no issue to think of :p
Maybe in some years people are getting there.
Let's talk about Swarmhosts/Mech - Page 6
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
But I guess on tier 1 core units thats no issue to think of :p Maybe in some years people are getting there. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 09 2017 10:09 LSN wrote: Same can be said about bio. Can't be catched, moves with speed of light and gets healed up for free, which is similar effect as free units. But I guess on tier 1 core units thats no issue to think of :p Maybe in some years people are getting there. Oh pls... The problem with swarmhosts is that if you use it correctly the unit is never in danger to interact (aka die) with other units. I don't see how that's good gameplay, especially because locusts fly now. I don't know if it is op, but it's ridiculous and shouldn't be in the game. | ||
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
And your opinion seems to be in the minority considering recent twitch numbers in SC2 vs BW. | ||
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
don't widow mines deflect swarmhosts? 2 mines per SH are cheaper resource wise (but not supply wise) and have same reload time zerg starts bombarding your base with locusts - meet them with mines. should work theoretically but from the experience i've had practically swarmhosts are extremely frustrating to deal with indeed | ||
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FoxDog
170 Posts
On January 08 2017 03:41 docvoc wrote: Besides the ad hominem there, I do think his point has merit. I'm not a very active or high level player, but the problem that Avilo is bringing up is that a single unit does away with an entire body of strategies for a race. He doesn't want to be forced into playing a single strategy every game versus Zerg, and therefore he wants to have a multitude of opportunities. The current meta allows for a single unit to dominate an entire strategy, which prevents Terrans from having a multitude of possible strategies to use. Having the option of using different strategies is very important because it mixes up games and keeps viewing/playing a fresh experience. None of that presupposes what you're saying, nor does he claim he wants to be able to faceroll Zergs with a maxed army. It's ok if there is a composition and general strategy to counter a meching Terran, that is an integral part of a healthy game. However, massing one unit prevent mech by stalling is hardly a healthy matchup state. With all that said its very possible that Avilo is overshooting how important this buff is. It could be that mech needs to be reimagined as a strategy and that the composition as well as the playstyle need to be reconceived to get around this issue. Regardless I don't think you can just brush off his post as him wanting to win every game with an obviously imba strat. This is so true, and i would go you one further and say that ANYBODY who dismisses ANY post off the back ONLY that the author be a person they dislike should be banned, we do not discriminate based on color ethnicity or personal preference on teamliquid. Avilos points stand by their merits and in this case are so valid i would give a warning to anyone who mentions "Avilo" as if that constitutes a knockdown argument, dismissing someone based on personal preference is bigotry if the points made by the author are valid. What would you do if someone like Behring breivik won the nobel peace prize by making isis peacefully surrender, or if mahatma gandhi started a nuclear war, would you still hate breivik and love gandhi, or would the facts change your mind? | ||
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On January 09 2017 11:04 Meta wrote: To people who say that mech is boring to watch... well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. And your opinion seems to be in the minority considering recent twitch numbers in SC2 vs BW. TIL mech in bw and sc2 play out the same way | ||
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TurboDreams
United States427 Posts
On January 09 2017 11:12 Ganseng wrote: a bit of theorycraft here... don't widow mines deflect swarmhosts? 2 mines per SH are cheaper resource wise (but not supply wise) and have same reload time zerg starts bombarding your base with locusts - meet them with mines. should work theoretically but from the experience i've had practically swarmhosts are extremely frustrating to deal with indeed Might as well use ghosts with snipe, they kill swarmhosts in one hit | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On January 09 2017 10:33 The_Red_Viper wrote: Oh pls... The problem with swarmhosts is that if you use it correctly the unit is never in danger to interact (aka die) with other units. I don't see how that's good gameplay, especially because locusts fly now. I don't know if it is op, but it's ridiculous and shouldn't be in the game. I would argue that many units need to be used correctly. Although, a good zerg should be able to keep their SH alive fairly easy. Now I don't think going heavy SH is op. In fact I would argue it is too weak. The trick is to get just enough SH. Too much and you risk losing a big investment and a paperweight for some seconds on CD. Too little and it only causes an annoyance to terran. I think 6 SH can one shot an addon, but not sure about a cc/oc/pf. What I don't understand about Avilo's play is that he never builds a bunker with a marine or two near any expansions. It's a glaring weakness to his play. The bunker is only there to buy time; it will likely get destroyed along with the marine, but it is precious time Avilo needs because his fucking reaction time blows monkey junks. Instead, he chooses to make pointless threads and waste time whining. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
Also i have never seen anyone use swarmhosts. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On January 09 2017 11:26 FoxDog wrote: This is so true, and i would go you one further and say that ANYBODY who dismisses ANY post off the back ONLY that the author be a person they dislike should be banned, we do not discriminate based on color ethnicity or personal preference on teamliquid. Avilos points stand by their merits and in this case are so valid i would give a warning to anyone who mentions "Avilo" as if that constitutes a knockdown argument, dismissing someone based on personal preference is bigotry if the points made by the author are valid. What would you do if someone like Behring breivik won the nobel peace prize by making isis peacefully surrender, or if mahatma gandhi started a nuclear war, would you still hate breivik and love gandhi, or would the facts change your mind? Yes. But avilo does exactly this to other people. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On January 09 2017 15:06 todespolka wrote: Yes. But avilo does exactly this to other people. which is exactly why many of us dismiss his posts. | ||
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
On January 04 2017 12:56 Parcelleus wrote: When some GM Korean SC2 players talk, I listen. Otherwise, yeah bye. i hope your korean is on point then  | ||
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Kaewins
Bulgaria138 Posts
It's like their goal with each expansion is to make the game less fun and more unplayable for your regular joe. Who benefits from this? Not even the pros seem to like it. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On January 09 2017 11:12 Ganseng wrote: a bit of theorycraft here... don't widow mines deflect swarmhosts? 2 mines per SH are cheaper resource wise (but not supply wise) and have same reload time zerg starts bombarding your base with locusts - meet them with mines. should work theoretically but from the experience i've had practically swarmhosts are extremely frustrating to deal with indeed That actually works really well but you have to know where the locusts are hitting in advance. On some maps there are just to many spots where the locusts could fly in. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 09 2017 14:22 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I would argue that many units need to be used correctly. Although, a good zerg should be able to keep their SH alive fairly easy. Now I don't think going heavy SH is op. In fact I would argue it is too weak. The trick is to get just enough SH. Too much and you risk losing a big investment and a paperweight for some seconds on CD. Too little and it only causes an annoyance to terran. I think 6 SH can one shot an addon, but not sure about a cc/oc/pf. What I don't understand about Avilo's play is that he never builds a bunker with a marine or two near any expansions. It's a glaring weakness to his play. The bunker is only there to buy time; it will likely get destroyed along with the marine, but it is precious time Avilo needs because his fucking reaction time blows monkey junks. Instead, he chooses to make pointless threads and waste time whining. I don't care about avilo bashing tbh, it gets old fast (even though i dislike his streaming personality a lot) The point is that swarmhosts aren't really in danger to get traded, why do we want such a unit in the game? It's frustrating to play against and almost free guaranteed damage done. The only thing you potentially lose is the locusts (without doing damage) and therefore cooldown. The SH was a stupid unit when it was first introduced and it's still a ridiculous unit right now. I can understand when people lose hope in blizzard looking at such a unit tbh. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On January 10 2017 00:06 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't care about avilo bashing tbh, it gets old fast (even though i dislike his streaming personality a lot) The point is that swarmhosts aren't really in danger to get traded, why do we want such a unit in the game? It's frustrating to play against and almost free guaranteed damage done. The only thing you potentially lose is the locusts (without doing damage) and therefore cooldown. The SH was a stupid unit when it was first introduced and it's still a ridiculous unit right now. I can understand when people lose hope in blizzard looking at such a unit tbh. I agree SH are low risk, but that also means low reward. And I would argue it needs protection to trade safely, like a burrowed infestor or two. Just having a banshee and raven can defend against a SH harass. Gas investment in a pack of SH and two infestors is steep, and makes it difficult to transition to anything. The SH is meant to buy time only. It is piss poor useless en masse. About your design, I'm not against an SHesque unit. But I agree it is a difficult type of unit to balance. So far, BL and SH have caused numerous problems, but that was due to the role of SH pre patch. When SH was purely siege, they were used similar to BL, but didn't have the same vulnerability to air. And I don't think its good design to have two very similar types of units used for siege. BL and SH used to overlap in roles, and also had very similar types of attacks. Blizzard realized that SH as a siege is impossible to balance. So they turned it into a harass unit. We will see how the 'free unit' design will work in the role of a harassment unit. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
On January 10 2017 02:49 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I agree SH are low risk, but that also means low reward. And I would argue it needs protection to trade safely, like a burrowed infestor or two. Just having a banshee and raven can defend against a SH harass. Gas investment in a pack of SH and two infestors is steep, and makes it difficult to transition to anything. The SH is meant to buy time only. It is piss poor useless en masse. About your design, I'm not against an SHesque unit. But I agree it is a difficult type of unit to balance. So far, BL and SH have caused numerous problems, but that was due to the role of SH pre patch. When SH was purely siege, they were used similar to BL, but didn't have the same vulnerability to air. And I don't think its good design to have two very similar types of units used for siege. BL and SH used to overlap in roles, and also had very similar types of attacks. Blizzard realized that SH as a siege is impossible to balance. So they turned it into a harass unit. We will see how the 'free unit' design will work in the role of a harassment unit. No, we won't see, because all pro-level terrans will keep going 16 marine drop 90% of the time and cyclone all-in sometimes, because nothing else is viable. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On January 10 2017 02:49 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: BL and SH used to overlap in roles, and also had very similar types of attacks. Blizzard realized that SH as a siege is impossible to balance. So they turned it into a harass unit. We will see how the 'free unit' design will work in the role of a harassment unit. They overlay roles in the same sense than liberator and tank overlap roles and also both tanks and liberators had very similar types of attacks, yet there is room in the game for a bit to overlap to give a sense of variety (besides BL are T3 units and SH are T2 which means can be used earlier but not as effective as BL). | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 10 2017 02:49 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I agree SH are low risk, but that also means low reward. And I would argue it needs protection to trade safely, like a burrowed infestor or two. Just having a banshee and raven can defend against a SH harass. Gas investment in a pack of SH and two infestors is steep, and makes it difficult to transition to anything. The SH is meant to buy time only. It is piss poor useless en masse. About your design, I'm not against an SHesque unit. But I agree it is a difficult type of unit to balance. So far, BL and SH have caused numerous problems, but that was due to the role of SH pre patch. When SH was purely siege, they were used similar to BL, but didn't have the same vulnerability to air. And I don't think its good design to have two very similar types of units used for siege. BL and SH used to overlap in roles, and also had very similar types of attacks. Blizzard realized that SH as a siege is impossible to balance. So they turned it into a harass unit. We will see how the 'free unit' design will work in the role of a harassment unit. I don't know about low reward, locusts have insanse dps and the ability to fly makes them very potent to snipe important structures. SHesque units have the problem that "free units" block pathing and tank while doing damage and therefore make it so that the main unit is pretty safe (ofc range is the biggest issue here though). I don't see why we want something like that in an rts game. It prevents meaningful unit interactions. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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