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On January 10 2017 06:31 SCC-Faust wrote:
I disagree that swarmhosts completely nullify mech. I think if you're able to survive the first few swarms and reach critical mass, a mech army becomes very formidable and can trample anything in its way.
They're mostly the bane of anyone who just sits back in their base, trying to build up an unstoppable army. Suddenly you have to have more map presence than a single raven, and have to actually scout and react.
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On January 10 2017 06:42 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2017 06:31 SCC-Faust wrote:
I disagree that swarmhosts completely nullify mech. I think if you're able to survive the first few swarms and reach critical mass, a mech army becomes very formidable and can trample anything in its way. They're mostly the bane of anyone who just sits back in their base, trying to build up an unstoppable army. Suddenly you have to have more map presence than a single raven, and have to actually scout and react.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a huge restraint on player style. Why would blizzard put in a unit that is anti-fun? What if my idea of fun is sitting in my base and making a big army?
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On January 10 2017 06:45 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2017 06:42 reneg wrote:On January 10 2017 06:31 SCC-Faust wrote:
I disagree that swarmhosts completely nullify mech. I think if you're able to survive the first few swarms and reach critical mass, a mech army becomes very formidable and can trample anything in its way. They're mostly the bane of anyone who just sits back in their base, trying to build up an unstoppable army. Suddenly you have to have more map presence than a single raven, and have to actually scout and react. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a huge restraint on player style. Why would blizzard put in a unit that is anti-fun? What if my idea of fun is sitting in my base and making a big army?
That's fair, and also to be fair, I was taking a dig at how most mech-style tends to be played, which is grossly unfair.
And while that playstyle might be your favored mode, it seems quite clear that blizzard disagrees:
- Harassment based play tends to be extremely encouraged (mutas are extremely fast, hellions in original mode seem solely designed to murder workers, there are places where tanks can siege up and fire upon a mineral line, widowmines one-shot workers, dropships have speed boost to get them into harass positions faster)
All of these things are added to the game to specifically allow you to wear down your opponent to the point where they're so exhausted and you have so many more units than they do, that they can try to roll out with their 'perfect army' to be rolled over by you.
If all you want to do is build things in your base and be left alone, then any and every one of those units is "anti-fun."
At some point, you have to play your opponent
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Gotta love how there's some clueless people in this thread that keep spewing out the "if you turtle SH do this etc"
Swarmhosts FORCE you to sit in base and turtle because you'll take free damage otherwise, and if you push out you get engulfed by free units or mass muta/corruptor etc.
The people right now that know about this strat and imbalance currently will make at least 10 swarmhosts and they have a free money generator the entire game to remax 4-5 times on whatever they want to while you're constantly losing buildings, and gas units, etc. for free every 30 seconds.
Something needs to be addressed with this unit. I'm also pretty sure this is why every korean Terran stopped going mech after the one series of innovation vs dark with the double reactor cheese...people realized if you see mech you just open 2 base muta into mass swarmhost and basically get an auto-win.
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Double post plz delete this one -_-
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On January 10 2017 08:38 avilo wrote:
Gotta love how there's some clueless people in this thread that keep spewing out the "if you turtle SH do this etc"
Swarmhosts FORCE you to sit in base and turtle because you'll take free damage otherwise, and if you push out you get engulfed by free units or mass muta/corruptor etc.
The people right now that know about this strat and imbalance currently will make at least 10 swarmhosts and they have a free money generator the entire game to remax 4-5 times on whatever they want to while you're constantly losing buildings, and gas units, etc. for free every 30 seconds.
Something needs to be addressed with this unit. I'm also pretty sure this is why every korean Terran stopped going mech after the one series of innovation vs dark with the double reactor cheese...people realized if you see mech you just open 2 base muta into mass swarmhost and basically get an auto-win.
I agree, I don't even like mech, I don't enjoy playing it or watching it being played even by the pros, but honestly, it makes no sense for David to do all of these radical changes in the game just to make mech viable at all and then have yet another unit that pretty much hard counters mech, the other one being the Viper which looks like it exists only to counter tanks.
Think about the Viper, it's bad vs anything that moves, but great vs stationary things, instead of just being half good against things that move and half good against stationary, it's totally linear in it's application. The Swarm Host is the same but worse because it just further encourages turtling.
I wish they made the Swarm Host deal with end game aerial armies to discourage mass sky compositions or removed all together, it doesn't really fill any void in Zerg's arsenal. If it was removed and mech was too strong tanks could always be slightly toned down or whatever.
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On January 10 2017 08:38 avilo wrote:
Gotta love how there's some clueless people in this thread that keep spewing out the "if you turtle SH do this etc"
Swarmhosts FORCE you to sit in base and turtle because you'll take free damage otherwise, and if you push out you get engulfed by free units or mass muta/corruptor etc.
The people right now that know about this strat and imbalance currently will make at least 10 swarmhosts and they have a free money generator the entire game to remax 4-5 times on whatever they want to while you're constantly losing buildings, and gas units, etc. for free every 30 seconds.
Something needs to be addressed with this unit. I'm also pretty sure this is why every korean Terran stopped going mech after the one series of innovation vs dark with the double reactor cheese...people realized if you see mech you just open 2 base muta into mass swarmhost and basically get an auto-win.
if you let a zerg get to 10 swarmhosts freely then you deserve to die a slow painful death. swarmhosts are not the go to build - unless its a map / player specific reason.
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On January 10 2017 06:45 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2017 06:42 reneg wrote:On January 10 2017 06:31 SCC-Faust wrote:
I disagree that swarmhosts completely nullify mech. I think if you're able to survive the first few swarms and reach critical mass, a mech army becomes very formidable and can trample anything in its way. They're mostly the bane of anyone who just sits back in their base, trying to build up an unstoppable army. Suddenly you have to have more map presence than a single raven, and have to actually scout and react. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a huge restraint on player style. Why would blizzard put in a unit that is anti-fun? What if my idea of fun is sitting in my base and making a big army?
Because if its viable to sit in your base and get an ultimate army in a matchup it pretty much ruins the gameplay and makes it boring to watch
On January 10 2017 08:38 avilo wrote:
Gotta love how there's some clueless people in this thread that keep spewing out the "if you turtle SH do this etc"
Swarmhosts FORCE you to sit in base and turtle because you'll take free damage otherwise, and if you push out you get engulfed by free units or mass muta/corruptor etc.
The people right now that know about this strat and imbalance currently will make at least 10 swarmhosts and they have a free money generator the entire game to remax 4-5 times on whatever they want to while you're constantly losing buildings, and gas units, etc. for free every 30 seconds.
Something needs to be addressed with this unit. I'm also pretty sure this is why every korean Terran stopped going mech after the one series of innovation vs dark with the double reactor cheese...people realized if you see mech you just open 2 base muta into mass swarmhost and basically get an auto-win.
TY/Gumiho still play mech most games (TY is 6.9k on KR; gumiho ~6.5kish) and innovation occasionaly does (he has a 7k account on kr) in tvz so it still seems pretty viable at least against zerg
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On January 10 2017 08:38 avilo wrote:
Gotta love how there's some clueless people in this thread that keep spewing out the "if you turtle SH do this etc"
Swarmhosts FORCE you to sit in base and turtle because you'll take free damage otherwise, and if you push out you get engulfed by free units or mass muta/corruptor etc.
The people right now that know about this strat and imbalance currently will make at least 10 swarmhosts and they have a free money generator the entire game to remax 4-5 times on whatever they want to while you're constantly losing buildings, and gas units, etc. for free every 30 seconds.
Something needs to be addressed with this unit. I'm also pretty sure this is why every korean Terran stopped going mech after the one series of innovation vs dark with the double reactor cheese...people realized if you see mech you just open 2 base muta into mass swarmhost and basically get an auto-win.
Gotta love how you try to use SH to justify your cancerous mech build.
It is not that SH forces you to go mech, it's always the other way round.
Turtle mech is just as cancerous of SH build, if not more.
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So is this going to be addressed any time soon or are we never going to see mech games? Every Z right now knows you go 2 base muta -> make 20 swarmhosts you now have a free income generator and can make any army you want.
This needs to be fixed fast. Been over a month now this shit has been in the game.
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On January 10 2017 10:38 Hexe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2017 08:38 avilo wrote:
Gotta love how there's some clueless people in this thread that keep spewing out the "if you turtle SH do this etc"
Swarmhosts FORCE you to sit in base and turtle because you'll take free damage otherwise, and if you push out you get engulfed by free units or mass muta/corruptor etc.
The people right now that know about this strat and imbalance currently will make at least 10 swarmhosts and they have a free money generator the entire game to remax 4-5 times on whatever they want to while you're constantly losing buildings, and gas units, etc. for free every 30 seconds.
Something needs to be addressed with this unit. I'm also pretty sure this is why every korean Terran stopped going mech after the one series of innovation vs dark with the double reactor cheese...people realized if you see mech you just open 2 base muta into mass swarmhost and basically get an auto-win. if you let a zerg get to 10 swarmhosts freely then you deserve to die a slow painful death. swarmhosts are not the go to build - unless its a map / player specific reason.
Dunno what league you are in but master/gm/pro your opponent will go 2 base muta every single game meaning you cannot move out onto the map which forces thors -> 20 swarmhost -> you now autolose vs someone that has a free money generation machine or you are forced to survive and turtle into 20 ravens which won't work if they abuse swarmhost properly.
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On January 10 2017 10:38 Hexe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2017 08:38 avilo wrote:
Gotta love how there's some clueless people in this thread that keep spewing out the "if you turtle SH do this etc"
Swarmhosts FORCE you to sit in base and turtle because you'll take free damage otherwise, and if you push out you get engulfed by free units or mass muta/corruptor etc.
The people right now that know about this strat and imbalance currently will make at least 10 swarmhosts and they have a free money generator the entire game to remax 4-5 times on whatever they want to while you're constantly losing buildings, and gas units, etc. for free every 30 seconds.
Something needs to be addressed with this unit. I'm also pretty sure this is why every korean Terran stopped going mech after the one series of innovation vs dark with the double reactor cheese...people realized if you see mech you just open 2 base muta into mass swarmhost and basically get an auto-win. if you let a zerg get to 10 swarmhosts freely then you deserve to die a slow painful death. swarmhosts are not the go to build - unless its a map / player specific reason.
5 sh are enough to start the snowball effect, like every player above diamond would know.
Easy to get inbetween, since they are so super cheap.
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I do not understand why Blizzard wait to take action on Swarm Hosts.
It is such an obvious issue even most Zerg players I talk to online admits that the unit is OP vs mech.
What what the point of trying to make mech more viable if you leave it in a state like this?
And it is not even a complicated issue to solve. Just increase the cost of Swarm Hosts. Zerg does not even need the unit, they have plenty of ways to beat mech without it.
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On January 14 2017 12:26 avilo wrote:
So is this going to be addressed any time soon or are we never going to see mech games? Every Z right now knows you go 2 base muta -> make 20 swarmhosts you now have a free income generator and can make any army you want.
This needs to be fixed fast. Been over a month now this shit has been in the game.
Terran is in a great spot right now,this is a learn to play issue
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On January 14 2017 17:26 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2017 12:26 avilo wrote:
So is this going to be addressed any time soon or are we never going to see mech games? Every Z right now knows you go 2 base muta -> make 20 swarmhosts you now have a free income generator and can make any army you want.
This needs to be fixed fast. Been over a month now this shit has been in the game. Terran is in a great spot right now,this is a learn to play issue
This does not make sense. There are no successful high level mech players in TvZ.
If you talk about bio that is obviously not relevant since no one uses Swarm Hosts against bio.
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On January 14 2017 17:44 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2017 17:26 Topdoller wrote:On January 14 2017 12:26 avilo wrote:
So is this going to be addressed any time soon or are we never going to see mech games? Every Z right now knows you go 2 base muta -> make 20 swarmhosts you now have a free income generator and can make any army you want.
This needs to be fixed fast. Been over a month now this shit has been in the game. Terran is in a great spot right now,this is a learn to play issue This does not make sense. There are no successful high level mech players in TvZ. If you talk about bio that is obviously not relevant since no one uses Swarm Hosts against bio.
Scarlett just says above that TY, Gumiho, and Innovation are using mech at the highest level.
Let's be honest, Avilo isn't a real progamer, he is not an high tiers GM.
When he face players that are objectivly better than him, and lose : Does he say : Well i'm lost vs one of the best player of the game, it's not a shame at all ?
No, he can get beaten by Golden, and say :
Well I've lost because mech is weak /Zerg OP. And immediatly make a threat on TL/Battle net (where he manage to get banned for spamming topic) : "Buff mech /nerf the counter of mech"
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The best part of this thread is how every mech advocate, together with the OP, straight up ignored the only post of a progamer in their mutual wank off circlejerk.
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On January 14 2017 12:33 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2017 10:38 Hexe wrote:On January 10 2017 08:38 avilo wrote:
Gotta love how there's some clueless people in this thread that keep spewing out the "if you turtle SH do this etc"
Swarmhosts FORCE you to sit in base and turtle because you'll take free damage otherwise, and if you push out you get engulfed by free units or mass muta/corruptor etc.
The people right now that know about this strat and imbalance currently will make at least 10 swarmhosts and they have a free money generator the entire game to remax 4-5 times on whatever they want to while you're constantly losing buildings, and gas units, etc. for free every 30 seconds.
Something needs to be addressed with this unit. I'm also pretty sure this is why every korean Terran stopped going mech after the one series of innovation vs dark with the double reactor cheese...people realized if you see mech you just open 2 base muta into mass swarmhost and basically get an auto-win. if you let a zerg get to 10 swarmhosts freely then you deserve to die a slow painful death. swarmhosts are not the go to build - unless its a map / player specific reason. Dunno what league you are in but master/gm/pro your opponent will go 2 base muta every single game meaning you cannot move out onto the map which forces thors -> 20 swarmhost -> you now autolose vs someone that has a free money generation machine or you are forced to survive and turtle into 20 ravens which won't work if they abuse swarmhost properly.
Yea and why respond to Scarlette, who proves your wrong ... you clearly deserve every ban you get.
If the game really was so black and white as you try make it to seem, we wouldn't be here in 2017 talking about sc2.
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On January 14 2017 18:56 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2017 17:44 MockHamill wrote:On January 14 2017 17:26 Topdoller wrote:On January 14 2017 12:26 avilo wrote:
So is this going to be addressed any time soon or are we never going to see mech games? Every Z right now knows you go 2 base muta -> make 20 swarmhosts you now have a free income generator and can make any army you want.
This needs to be fixed fast. Been over a month now this shit has been in the game. Terran is in a great spot right now,this is a learn to play issue This does not make sense. There are no successful high level mech players in TvZ. If you talk about bio that is obviously not relevant since no one uses Swarm Hosts against bio. Scarlett just says above that TY, Gumiho, and Innovation are using mech at the highest level. Let's be honest, Avilo isn't a real progamer, he is not an high tiers GM. When he face players that are objectivly better than him, and lose : Does he say : Well i'm lost vs one of the best player of the game, it's not a shame at all ? No, he can get beaten by Golden, and say : Well I've lost because mech is weak /Zerg OP. And immediatly make a threat on TL/Battle net (where he manage to get banned for spamming topic) : "Buff mech /nerf the counter of mech"
Yep, it's always the same with him "I didn't lose cause I'm not top tier, no goddamnit I'm avilo! I can't lose! It must be the game! Blizzard fix your shit!"
I always have the same question when I see an avilo thread
That is "If you hate the balance so much and they're clearly not going to listen now if they haven't for so long, why don't you just quit?" Seriously, is it an ego thing or is it because he might actually have to get good at something other than conning deluded fanboys out of their money when they sub and donate to him by saying the games "Broken"?
I mean I've seen him post some intelligent stuff on occasion, rare occasions granted but he clearly has a brain and all and a genuine love for the game it seems but goddamn I wonder does he ever wonder why everyone outside his circlejerk of a twitch channel hates him? Why no one ever takes him seriously even when he makes a good post? Why he's a running joke for the community who just love to watch our little puppet dance? It's crap like this,
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On January 14 2017 17:44 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2017 17:26 Topdoller wrote:On January 14 2017 12:26 avilo wrote:
So is this going to be addressed any time soon or are we never going to see mech games? Every Z right now knows you go 2 base muta -> make 20 swarmhosts you now have a free income generator and can make any army you want.
This needs to be fixed fast. Been over a month now this shit has been in the game. Terran is in a great spot right now,this is a learn to play issue This does not make sense. There are no successful high level mech players in TvZ. If you talk about bio that is obviously not relevant since no one uses Swarm Hosts against bio.
Its relevant because this is a learn to play issue, the OP is unable to adapt his play to the opponent at hand.
"you dont bring a knife to a nuke fight "
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EPT
