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On January 15 2017 08:27 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2017 08:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Mech is not OP in BW. Mech in BW is a totally different beast to SC2. In SC2 the army can move together, providing no opportunities to pick off units, tanks have no overkill, with the effect that a supply capped mech army is more effective than in bw against pure ground and the economt and bases to defend to build up a mech force is totally different. Also the mech style expoused in this SC2 thread is totally different from the mech that is played in BW. In BW, it is accepted that there has to be powerful spells or units which directly counter mech play. Avilo mech proponents argues that these counters should not exist. Only an idiot or someone that wants SC2 to fail would want there to be no counters to a strategy. There should be viable counter options to everything in the game. Which is exactly what this thread is about. Swarmhosts currently have no counter play if you opt for mech. They are over the top and do not belong in the game because they generate free income every 30 seconds. Mech was better off before the ridiculous swarmhost buffs, and now it's near impossible to play if your opponent knows about swarmhosts being absurdly broken atm.
"I opt to run around with no armor in Dark Souls all the time and I still die in one hit. WHY? NAMCO FIX YOUR SHIT!"
Do you have any self awareness whatsoever or are you just so far into your "Savior of SC2" con man routine that you've lost all grasp on reality?
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On January 15 2017 08:38 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2017 08:27 avilo wrote:On January 15 2017 08:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Mech is not OP in BW. Mech in BW is a totally different beast to SC2. In SC2 the army can move together, providing no opportunities to pick off units, tanks have no overkill, with the effect that a supply capped mech army is more effective than in bw against pure ground and the economt and bases to defend to build up a mech force is totally different. Also the mech style expoused in this SC2 thread is totally different from the mech that is played in BW. In BW, it is accepted that there has to be powerful spells or units which directly counter mech play. Avilo mech proponents argues that these counters should not exist. Only an idiot or someone that wants SC2 to fail would want there to be no counters to a strategy. There should be viable counter options to everything in the game. Which is exactly what this thread is about. Swarmhosts currently have no counter play if you opt for mech. They are over the top and do not belong in the game because they generate free income every 30 seconds. Mech was better off before the ridiculous swarmhost buffs, and now it's near impossible to play if your opponent knows about swarmhosts being absurdly broken atm. "I opt to run around with no armor in Dark Souls all the time and I still die in one hit. WHY? NAMCO FIX YOUR SHIT!" Do you have any self awareness whatsoever or are you just so far into your "Savior of SC2" con man routine that you've lost all grasp on reality?
Honestly, just don't even bother with these guys. He'll come back and say that mech needs to be viable (and not only viable, but give you a distinct and utter advantage so you'd have to make a huge mistake to lose to someone else) in every single situation - be it against its direct counter (and to the note above that everything needs counters - SH do have a counter, mobility & widow mines)
A good analogy would be to say, i built an army of things that can't shoot up, we need to nerf things that are in the sky so I can compete.
I also like that Scarlett gets completely ignored after providing her valuable insight (several high level kr players do play mech on ladder), and the thread gets bumped to ask when "will blizz fix plz" - as if this were the blizzard forums, and they wanted to take their development notes from threads like this.
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On January 15 2017 02:20 ihatevideogames wrote:
Imagine if SHs were light for example. It would create a cat-and-mouse with hellions. Now that's an interesting interaction right there.
This is a really good idea. Would make it possible to actually counter the unit with mech while still not promoting turtle mech.
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Hey avilo I've got an idea man. Have you considered that asking for changes is the opposite of what you should do to get change? I mean if i was working at blizzard, no matter how professional I was I would still deliberately do the opposite of whatever you suggest. Maybe you should suggest buffing swarmhosts instead?
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On January 15 2017 20:33 FvRGg wrote:
Hey avilo I've got an idea man. Have you considered that asking for changes is the opposite of what you should do to get change? I mean if i was working at blizzard, no matter how professional I was I would still deliberately do the opposite of whatever you suggest. Maybe you should suggest buffing swarmhosts instead?
Have you been reading my old avilo posts? Get out of my head! 
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On January 15 2017 02:20 ihatevideogames wrote:
As a diamond meching terran, I'm not really allowed to talk about 'balance', but damn I got every right to say IT'S NOT FUCKING FUN. Swarm Hosts are so infuriating to deal with I'd rather not play untill they're changed.
There's nothing exciting or fun in dealing with swarm hosts. And it's weird too, because there's so many good ways to fix that. Change their price or their speed, or maybe nerf their hp so we can chase them with hellions or banshees etc etc. Things that would still make turtle mech unviable, but would at least make the unit create interesting interactions.
CURRENTLY THERE'S NO INTERESTING INTERACTION WITH SWARM HOSTS.
Imagine if SHs were light for example. It would create a cat-and-mouse with hellions. Now that's an interesting interaction right there.
Mate this is how most Zerg players feel playing vs mech in SC2.
It's not fun at all
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I just went on a low GM Z stream, and he faced mech.
Z went for fast mutas, into SH, roach ravagers.
The T made liberators that killed the locust on the air, and sieged when the locust landed, so the wave has made no dmg despite Z having 15 SH.
Then T push and win.
Apparently he has not received the memo of avilo about Mech not viable, SH beats it, and that you're forced to turtle with mech... and won.
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while i can agree with avilo that swarm host is a dumb unit, your loses to swarm hosts are your own noob fault for playing the way you do, i think solar said it best on the first page 
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As a player that opts for mech most of my games
I'm hoping people will understand SC2 is a strategy game and is not meant to be a 16 marine drop every single game with the spectators and viewers knowing exactly what will happen before the game ever even begins.
Rofl.
As a player who opts for mass Dark Archon and Scouts, I think that the strength of Scourge is too great. BW is a strategy game and is not meant to be Forge Fast Expand every single game. I mean, the fact that my build isn't viable at all and that Forge Fast Expand is optimized for the current meta isn't important because I really just want to play Scout and Dark Archon and nothing anyone will say will change my mind about it. Blizzard, please fix this! I hope that I can piggyback off of avilo's post so that this gets some traction. We've been waiting for a patch to Brood War for 14 years now!
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On January 16 2017 09:13 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +I'm hoping people will understand SC2 is a strategy game and is not meant to be a 16 marine drop every single game with the spectators and viewers knowing exactly what will happen before the game ever even begins. Rofl. As a player who opts for mass Dark Archon and Scouts, I think that the strength of Scourge is too great. BW is a strategy game and is not meant to be Forge Fast Expand every single game. I mean, the fact that my build isn't viable at all and that Forge Fast Expand is optimized for the current meta isn't important because I really just want to play Scout and Dark Archon and nothing anyone will say will change my mind about it. Blizzard, please fix this! I hope that I can piggyback off of avilo's post so that this gets some traction. We've been waiting for a patch to Brood War for 14 years now!
Exactly. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it needs to be unbeatable in any situation. That's my main issue with this balance complaint: it's sitting around saying, "i've chosen a strong mix of units, why can the enemy build units that beat them?"
Mech absolutely shreds most zerg armies: muta ling vanishes before it, they can't even get close. Hydra Roach get stomped by the extra damage to armored, and they're just too expensive to be able to counter.
Zerg gets pushed into a unit that has no attack on its own, and has to spawn additional units to hopefully fly into the enemy base to wreck their infrastructure.
I could make the same complaint as a Z player. I'm choosing to play Muta Ling every game. Widow mines are horribly imba and make it too difficult for me to attack. They get unlimited mines that they fire out every 29 seconds (free unit, who has ever heard of a mine that doesn't actually get destroyed when it blows itself up??).
But that's part of the game. Zerg should have something that allows them to hold out vs. a mech army.
Edit: removed something that was unnecessarily snarky
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On January 15 2017 02:20 ihatevideogames wrote:
As a diamond meching terran, I'm not really allowed to talk about 'balance', but damn I got every right to say IT'S NOT FUCKING FUN. Swarm Hosts are so infuriating to deal with I'd rather not play untill they're changed.
There's nothing exciting or fun in dealing with swarm hosts. And it's weird too, because there's so many good ways to fix that. Change their price or their speed, or maybe nerf their hp so we can chase them with hellions or banshees etc etc. Things that would still make turtle mech unviable, but would at least make the unit create interesting interactions.
CURRENTLY THERE'S NO INTERESTING INTERACTION WITH SWARM HOSTS.
Imagine if SHs were light for example. It would create a cat-and-mouse with hellions. Now that's an interesting interaction right there.
Zerg says probably the same about mech (at least i do)!
Swarmhost can't be the core of zergs army, because it has a long attack cooldown and locust dies fast (to aoe damage especially air). For 30-40s zerg has a weaker army (no locusts). In this time period it is difficult to stop any attack.
Locusts clump up and have no air to air attack. 1-2 thors + turrets should be able to kill locusts in the air.
You can play defensive and built up a strong army. If you die before you reach that point, it is not the fault of the game. Humans are clever! They find a weakness in your play and punish you. Play against AI, if you like to turtle and to build up a sim city.
Swarmhost has weaknesses. It is immobile, has a long attack cooldown and no air to air attack. Use them to your advantage: Drop wm, helbat or thor. Thor destroys buildings fast. Snipe expansions or tech buildings with them. Do hellion runbys. Put a widowmine behind zergs mineral line. Banshee harass. Tank pushes are possible, but very difficult to pull off, because the cooldown is not long enough (requires special composition and micro, map position or a multi pronged attack).
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Really would love to bring up swarmhosts again for discussion and so the community can get blizzard's attention to this game breaking issue.
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You gotta hand it to him: this guy has his Avilo impersonation down to a tee. It's hilarious!
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The Comunity has spoken. SH are fine. Blizz has listen to us. SH are going to remain unchanged until the end of times.
This thread is sealed.
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On February 03 2017 09:23 Argonauta wrote:
The Comunity has spoken. SH are fine. Blizz has listen to us. SH are going to remain unchanged until the end of times.
This thread is sealed.
I don't know if I agree with this entirely, I feel like SH are more like "balanced" against Terran in the sense that they are crap vs. bio so win rates won't be skewed too much in Zerg's favor to point out a unit imbalance, at the moment it seems like both Vipers and Swarm Hosts exist to beat down mech, where a more soft counter approach for the Viper would be ideal, the Host needs a redesign entirely to fit the role that Zerg needs, which is combating massing aerial armies (skytoss imba lol jk..) and not opposing mech which we have a variety of roles for.
Swarm Host
- Remove locust ground attack and movement entirely
- Make locust aerial unit only that costs minerals, just like carriers
- Make them suck vs easy to micro fast air units and powerful vs. massed up air deathballs
- Make Swarm Hosts cost 150/150 and 3 supply, this way they are costly and don't invalidate air units entirely by being easily massed
This way you effectively remove end game Sky army nonsense and you remove the cancer against mech units that is the Host in it's current form, hopefully mass Tempest and mass Carrier is super bad against the Swarm Hosts and nobody builds them therefore nobody builds Hosts therefore we can just remove all of those shitty units from the game in one fell swoop.
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On February 03 2017 11:27 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 09:23 Argonauta wrote:
The Comunity has spoken. SH are fine. Blizz has listen to us. SH are going to remain unchanged until the end of times.
This thread is sealed. I don't know if I agree with this entirely, I feel like SH are more like "balanced" against Terran in the sense that they are crap vs. bio so win rates won't be skewed too much in Zerg's favor to point out a unit imbalance, at the moment it seems like both Vipers and Swarm Hosts exist to beat down mech, where a more soft counter approach for the Viper would be ideal, the Host needs a redesign entirely to fit the role that Zerg needs, which is combating massing aerial armies (skytoss imba lol jk..) and not opposing mech which we have a variety of roles for. Swarm Host - Remove locust ground attack and movement entirely - Make locust aerial unit only that costs minerals, just like carriers - Make them suck vs easy to micro fast air units and powerful vs. massed up air deathballs - Make Swarm Hosts cost 150/150 and 3 supply, this way they are costly and don't invalidate air units entirely by being easily massed This way you effectively remove end game Sky army nonsense and you remove the cancer against mech units that is the Host in it's current form, hopefully mass Tempest and mass Carrier is super bad against the Swarm Hosts and nobody builds them therefore nobody builds Hosts therefore we can just remove all of those shitty units from the game in one fell swoop.
You'd remove Sky armies as an option for Terran and Protoss, but Zerg players could still make Mutas and Broodlords. If your version of Swarmhosts were any good, they'd likely make broodlords godlike since it generally takes air to counter them.
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On January 10 2017 11:30 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2017 06:45 SCC-Faust wrote:On January 10 2017 06:42 reneg wrote:On January 10 2017 06:31 SCC-Faust wrote:
I disagree that swarmhosts completely nullify mech. I think if you're able to survive the first few swarms and reach critical mass, a mech army becomes very formidable and can trample anything in its way. They're mostly the bane of anyone who just sits back in their base, trying to build up an unstoppable army. Suddenly you have to have more map presence than a single raven, and have to actually scout and react. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a huge restraint on player style. Why would blizzard put in a unit that is anti-fun? What if my idea of fun is sitting in my base and making a big army? Because if its viable to sit in your base and get an ultimate army in a matchup it pretty much ruins the gameplay and makes it boring to watch Show nested quote +On January 10 2017 08:38 avilo wrote:
Gotta love how there's some clueless people in this thread that keep spewing out the "if you turtle SH do this etc"
Swarmhosts FORCE you to sit in base and turtle because you'll take free damage otherwise, and if you push out you get engulfed by free units or mass muta/corruptor etc.
The people right now that know about this strat and imbalance currently will make at least 10 swarmhosts and they have a free money generator the entire game to remax 4-5 times on whatever they want to while you're constantly losing buildings, and gas units, etc. for free every 30 seconds.
Something needs to be addressed with this unit. I'm also pretty sure this is why every korean Terran stopped going mech after the one series of innovation vs dark with the double reactor cheese...people realized if you see mech you just open 2 base muta into mass swarmhost and basically get an auto-win. TY/Gumiho still play mech most games (TY is 6.9k on KR; gumiho ~6.5kish) and innovation occasionaly does (he has a 7k account on kr) in tvz so it still seems pretty viable at least against zerg
Thanks Scarlett! Great to get the view of a code-S player. 
Do people use SH against those players when they mech? Do you?
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On January 04 2017 11:08 avilo wrote:
All right. This has to be written here on TL by somebody otherwise i can't in good conscience say i did everything in my power to not let SC2 die.
Possibly one of the things that has hurt SC2 the most has been the influence of popular players whining and getting the community to follow them in whining. I can't think of a single day in SC2's entire history where there wasn't some self-entitled person demanding Blizzard change a unit or set of units.
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Community has agreed this isnt an issue, please post this on the blizzard forums if you want the game changed. Blizzard do not have any representation on these forums
If you are having issues with Swarmhosts please post some examples of your games where you are losing to them on a persistent basis, a high level player may be able to offer some advice on tactics
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On February 03 2017 09:23 Argonauta wrote:
The Comunity has spoken. SH are fine. Blizz has listen to us. SH are going to remain unchanged until the end of times.
This thread is sealed.
Where has the community spoken that swarmhosts are fine? The only time swarmhosts seem to be used is vs. mech, so a very niche unit. Zerg has more than enough options already vs. mech so i do not see the point of the current swarmhost. If anything zerg needs help vs late game sky compositions. I don't know if the swarmhost is entirely broken vs. mech but it's at least unnecessary especially since it's only used vs. mech. I don't think the discussion about swarmhost can be sealed.
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EPT
