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On April 13 2015 23:04 Exstasy wrote:
Everyone in here suggesting new upgrades and changes. What's wrong with Overlord drops currently? No one uses them but I bet if you're trying to break a terran position or catch a couple of tanks you could drop ontop and run in with lings.
please stop trolling.
first of, researching drop is very expensive. secondly, Overlords are a bit too slow for dropping to be efficient. its way to easy to snipe off overlords before they get to load out the units and because of that, youre almost guaranteed to not only lose all the units but all the overlords too. Additionally, Terran got hellbats now, dropping roaches 1by1 per overlord into hellbats wont do much.
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zergs just need to use nydus more (like in 2010)
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On April 13 2015 23:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 23:09 WonnaPlay wrote:On April 13 2015 22:54 y0su wrote:On April 13 2015 22:44 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 13 2015 20:53 deacon.frost wrote:On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote:
Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe)
- Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too)
- Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch).
- Increase the vision of Vipers
- Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability) I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign  I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now! On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote:
The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait... If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them. But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions? Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem. ,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem; Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11 So I don't get it?? Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well: The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank. Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them.
Thats how most AoE spells work tho, like Storm and EMP, you put the spell caster at a risk anyway because there is stuff with enough range that will kill it.
I think that if zerg needs anything vs mech is make the blinding cloud radius bigger, to deal with big balls of mech in the lategame.
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On April 13 2015 23:44 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 23:35 Big J wrote:On April 13 2015 23:09 WonnaPlay wrote:On April 13 2015 22:54 y0su wrote:On April 13 2015 22:44 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 13 2015 20:53 deacon.frost wrote:On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote:
Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe)
- Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too)
- Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch).
- Increase the vision of Vipers
- Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability) I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now! On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote:
The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait... If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them. But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions? Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem. ,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem; Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11 So I don't get it?? Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well: The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank. Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them. Thats how most AoE spells work tho, like Storm and EMP, you put the spell caster at a risk anyway because there is stuff with enough range that will kill it. I think that if zerg needs anything vs mech is make the blinding cloud range bigger, to deal with big balls of mech in the lategame.
I guess you mean the radius? Could do something I guess.
Anyhow, the real problem are still air armies for zerg, a pure ground mech army can actually be beaten. We'll just have to see what will happen, in the end I still think we need a anti air buff for HotS or voidray/storm and raven armies will just be too much. Zerg can't even zone out hts now. But we'll see in a month or so.
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On April 13 2015 23:41 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 23:04 Exstasy wrote:
Everyone in here suggesting new upgrades and changes. What's wrong with Overlord drops currently? No one uses them but I bet if you're trying to break a terran position or catch a couple of tanks you could drop ontop and run in with lings. please stop trolling.
Please stop crying because you have to adapt your playstyle.
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On April 13 2015 23:43 yoigen wrote:zergs just need to use nydus more (like in 2010)
I See your taking Avilo's advice on how zerg should should deal with 60 damage Siege Tanks with 3-range Roaches on Steppes of War and Lost Temple.
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On April 13 2015 23:44 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 23:35 Big J wrote:On April 13 2015 23:09 WonnaPlay wrote:On April 13 2015 22:54 y0su wrote:On April 13 2015 22:44 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 13 2015 20:53 deacon.frost wrote:On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote:
Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe)
- Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too)
- Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch).
- Increase the vision of Vipers
- Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability) I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now! On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote:
The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait... If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them. But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions? Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem. ,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem; Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11 So I don't get it?? Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well: The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank. Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them. Thats how most AoE spells work tho, like Storm and EMP, you put the spell caster at a risk anyway because there is stuff with enough range that will kill it.
EMP has 10range+1.5AoE with a 11sight ghost.
Storm has 9range+1.5AoE with an 10sight templar.
In both those cases you only have uncertainty of a 0.5radius section of the 1.5radius circle. With Swarm Hosts its over half of its AoE radius that is in the dark if cast from maximum range.
Since I'm checking, fungal actually has the same vision range problem with 10sight infestors and 10range fungal, casting half of it in the dark if you want to do it perfectly.
You are right with casters exposing them anyways to some degree, which is why I think 10 or 11range is a pretty nonsensical discussion. It doesn't really alter any unit interaction, it is a tiny statistical buff that will in the one or other situation safe a shot on the viper, but it's not something like increasing the range of a marine to 6 so stalkers couldn't kite them anymore which would effectively alter gameplay.
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On April 13 2015 23:49 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 23:44 Lexender wrote:On April 13 2015 23:35 Big J wrote:On April 13 2015 23:09 WonnaPlay wrote:On April 13 2015 22:54 y0su wrote:On April 13 2015 22:44 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 13 2015 20:53 deacon.frost wrote:On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote:
Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe)
- Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too)
- Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch).
- Increase the vision of Vipers
- Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability) I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now! On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote:
The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait... If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them. But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions? Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem. ,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem; Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11 So I don't get it?? Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well: The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank. Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them. Thats how most AoE spells work tho, like Storm and EMP, you put the spell caster at a risk anyway because there is stuff with enough range that will kill it. I think that if zerg needs anything vs mech is make the blinding cloud range bigger, to deal with big balls of mech in the lategame. I guess you mean the radius? Could do something I guess. Anyhow, the real problem are still air armies for zerg, a pure ground mech army can actually be beaten. We'll just have to see what will happen, in the end I still think we need a anti air buff for HotS or voidray/storm and raven armies will just be too much. Zerg can't even zone out hts now. But we'll see in a month or so.
Ehhh yes radius lol.
I actually don't see that, air armies are not that hard to deal with, with PDD nerf once you blind tanks and thors, you can use infestors in the air army, also broodlords are actually quite strong against mech, maybe even hydras.
It all depends on how the zergs learn to deal with the PDD nerf, I think if they learn to bait them and then engage when they run out (kinda like force fields) they could deal with raven armies pretty well.
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On April 13 2015 23:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 23:09 WonnaPlay wrote:On April 13 2015 22:54 y0su wrote:On April 13 2015 22:44 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 13 2015 20:53 deacon.frost wrote:On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote:
Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe)
- Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too)
- Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch).
- Increase the vision of Vipers
- Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability) I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now! On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote:
The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait... If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them. But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions? Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem. ,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem; Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11 So I don't get it?? Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ml2wagc.png) The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank. Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them.
Hmm, thanks for this explanation, it still seems like a very minor issue, but atleast I can understand what the fuzz is about. But like I said in my previous post, Zerg can most of the time already see about 50% of the map ("their own territory"), so this only applies in attacking off creep.
As for Tempests, you need either an observer (which keep dying) or an oracle with 75 energy, to get to their 15 range (12 sight).
Zergs just need to adjust aswell now, for example ;
Overseers with speed have ; 1.875 (+1.5) = 3.375 speed, which is faster than Vipers, with their 2.9531 speed. They also have 11 range, which should be sufficient aswell.
Furthermore, zergs can experiment with burrowing zerglings accross key spots in the map etc. etc.
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If mech is so powerful against zerg, why is it not widely used against zerg in Korean leagues?
Let's face it, the foreign zerg style needs to die. It's been a turtle into bullshit boring composition since WoL was released in 2010.
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I dont even wanna know his opinion on anything, especially not this matter... People seem so lost when it come to trying new stuff also, maybe time to try something else than uve done over the last year/s? we all tend to go into a comfortzone what we are used to be playing etc. Always seems to be the koreans that will find ways of new stuff/builds and then foreigners copying.
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On April 14 2015 00:18 andrewlt wrote:
If mech is so powerful against zerg, why is it not widely used against zerg in Korean leagues?
Let's face it, the foreign zerg style needs to die. It's been a turtle into bullshit boring composition since WoL was released in 2010.
"turtle into bullshit" - best ever :D
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On April 14 2015 00:18 andrewlt wrote:
If mech is so powerful against zerg, why is it not widely used against zerg in Korean leagues?
maybe because the patch has only been out for one day of proleague, in which of the two ZvTs one was cheese and one was Mech.
Let's face it, the foreign zerg style needs to die. It's been a turtle into bullshit boring composition since WoL was released in 2010.
Yeah, watching Lillekannin, Happy, avilo, Beasty and all those other turtleterrans is so much more fun...
It's funny because Terran has had the decision power what units zerg can play since 2010. If you don't want to play against Swarm Hosts besides weirdo zerg strategies, all you had to do was just open bio. It's retarted. Zerg has been the race forced to play reactive. If anyone had the right to complain about being forced into certain playstyles while their Terran opponent can choose what they want it is Zergs.
Yet here we find ourselves, being called abusers and similar stuff just because you guys feel entitled to not only play the way you want to, but also to choose that we cannot use certain units because you don't find it fun.
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On April 13 2015 23:19 SuperHofmann wrote:
I think that a good way to solve the problem is to let Tier 3 avaiable. Both Ultralisk and Broodlords are usueless and easy to counter.
I think that Zergs need a transition after Roach Hydra. A good reason to make +3 ranged atk. Zergs are forced to use Tier 2 against a Tier 3 composition just because they don't have a usefull Tier 3. Before there was SH (still Tier 2, but cost efficient against opponent Toer 3), now nothing
Sounds like your talking about TvP in HotS...just switched Terran with Zerg o_O
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probably not. why do you ask?
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Well, Firecake is right in this. Not surprising, anyone who understands the game could tell this before patch.
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On April 14 2015 00:56 Big J wrote:probably not. why do you ask?
Based on results either Korean don't play mech or are not sucessful with it.
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On April 14 2015 01:21 keglu wrote:Based on results either Korean don't play mech or are not sucessful with it.
Or it takes time to see whether it is good or not. Or it takes time to train Mech if you only trained bio for the last 2years. Or it takes time to adjust to playing against the new swarm hosts. Or all the games were decided by cheeses. Or we will find the same retarded balance that Protoss vs Zerg had in the Sentry/Immortal era.
The patch is young, we will see how good it is in the next months.
There is little to be said about the balance after the patch right now besides the patch hitting a very well balanced enviroment with an unsure outcome.
Designwise I don't like the change anyways. It's flying, stronger free units instead of free units more frequently. If they would be so eager to do the game something good just remove the damn thing in LotV and balance from there.
Timingwise it is horrible. The professional playerbase is split between playing LotV and training their old HotS strategies - but those old HotS strategies have taken a major blow for Zerg players. Blizzard is focusing heavily on LotV, which means it is even less likely that they will pay attention to balance problems and tweak if necessary. And even if after some balance the game turns out well balanced again, after that process there will be not HotS left to be played because LotV is coming out.
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typical zerg whine. The foreign zergs just want their afk-hosts back so they can bore their opponents to death.
When they are forced to adapt they just cry instead and ask for David kim to solve their issues.
Mech just got a huge blow by the stupid pdd nerf and the retarded blinding cloud buff and the swarmhost didn't even get nerfed. the new swarmhost is probably even better than the old one because they force friendly fire from the tanks when they land in front of them.
But the problem is that they aren't autocast anymore so the zergs can't go afk anymore and both players have to control their units. That is firecakes problem. he refuses to adapt and instead cries for david kim to help him.
In korea mech will probably die out with the patch and we will be back to bio all day every day. So much diversity wow.
Blinding cloud is way to strong vs mech. Have your tanks a little bit stacked one time and it's instantly gg.
If david kim wants to see something else than bio in every game blinding cloud should be removed from the game immediately. It's the most retarded spell in the entire game. with one click it renders a 200 supply mech army useless and let's you instant win the game. and if it didn't work just throw a nydus in the opponents base and enjoy your freewin.
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EPT
