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On April 13 2015 20:19 SuperHofmann wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 20:13 Exstasy wrote:
it's funny, SH are nerfed and redesigned but they needed to be. They are still very good they just need to be used differently and creatively. Imagine using a batch of SH's to harrass one base (more options now with flying locusts) and then harassing the other side of the map with mutas.
Pros and high level players have a reasonable concern against turtle styles but lower level players are just mad that they don't have a constant harassment that doesn't drain multitasking. The problem isn't that actual SH are useless. They are re-designed now, so they have a new aim into the game. Ok but, now there's a lack of composition in the late game for the Zerg, that's the key. Actual SH can be really good for something that isn't a late game composition, is just a skirmish unit (like DTs for the Protoss, nobody makes an army of 40 DTs, they make 5-6 of them to harrass).
Well now that they don't need to burrow to spawn locusts they're quite different from dt's even in how they harrass, detection doesn't necessarily play into it. with the long cooldown there isn't a lot of reason to keep your sh's burrowed in a dangerous area you might as well use them like:
Spawn locusts -> Shift click to other side of the map -> spawn locusts etc
Then just try to have this constant harrass from all sides that drains your opponents attention/money for static defense trade for units/workers.
They're really not that bad. It's just an investment that at the top level may be too much in a lot of situations.
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On April 13 2015 20:26 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 11:12 Lunareste wrote:On April 13 2015 11:09 GGzerG wrote:On April 13 2015 10:03 shin_toss wrote:
all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans What other unit can you have to deal with late game Protoss and maxed Terran Mech lol don't let them get there isn't that what you guys told us at the end of Lings of Liberty? yeah and BL/infestor was fucking broken wasn't it? Unless it's another retardiculous attempt at justifying Zerg being weaker by saying that it was overpowered in 2012
infestor was imbalanced since 2010 and only halfway 2012 people started abusing it.
The infestor "buff" back then, was hardly a buff, it just opened alot of people's eyes to try it out.
Players just have to find a new style again. I mean, basically every P and T has been countering Swarmhosts the last 12 months, so ofcourse if they play the same style against not-so-strong-Swarmhosts, they will WRECK everything.
Zergs who'm have been abusing Swarmhosts just need to adapt again.
Like with every patch
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On April 13 2015 20:39 WonnaPlay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 20:26 Ej_ wrote:On April 13 2015 11:12 Lunareste wrote:On April 13 2015 11:09 GGzerG wrote:On April 13 2015 10:03 shin_toss wrote:
all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans What other unit can you have to deal with late game Protoss and maxed Terran Mech lol don't let them get there isn't that what you guys told us at the end of Lings of Liberty? yeah and BL/infestor was fucking broken wasn't it? Unless it's another retardiculous attempt at justifying Zerg being weaker by saying that it was overpowered in 2012 infestor was imbalanced since 2010 and only halfway 2012 people started abusing it. The infestor "buff" back then, was hardly a buff, it just opened alot of people's eyes to try it out. Players just have to find a new style again. I mean, basically every P and T has been countering Swarmhosts the last 12 months, so ofcourse if they play the same style against not-so-strong-Swarmhosts, they will WRECK everything. Zergs who'm have been abusing Swarmhosts just need to adapt again. Like with every patch
the infestor buff wasn't a joke at all.
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I would rather wait a few months to see if zerg can deal with it.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
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well, let's wait a bit more.
Until LotV comes out:
- I think maps with spread out 3rd's and 4th's can help Zergs. (ppl forget map balance and its big role in the game)
- Buff Infestors again? (Increase the speed of a fungal...)
- and what others have already said with an increase of sight for the viper. That could help a bit?
ZvP will be much harder now, but I still think more Z-favourable maps could fix that.
Same with playing mech: you simply can't play mech on every map, so map balance could fix that as well.
Sure, it'd be nice if every race could enter late game, but that's hardly possible. Just as a reminder: Look at TvP. It's also quite broken in that regard. It can hardly be won by terran in late game (and NO scv-pulls are not "LAZY-boy-pushes...it's usually the only window a terran has)
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The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
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On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote:
The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
Seriously? you can't have 12 range vision? what game are you playing?
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On April 13 2015 21:13 HomeWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote:
The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it. Seriously? you can't have 12 range vision? what game are you playing?
No I meant Vipers don't have 12 vision. So 12 range does nothing. It's not like zerg can use observers or revelation like Protoss. Unless the opponent runs on creep you can't use the 12 range blinding cloud is what I mean. It's not like changelings work on that level.
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OMG firecake thougt one night about the patch and he could not find the answer DRAMA!!!! After his 2-0 loss agaist happy he asked for a pauze.... And called for help.... but Ret also didn't know the answer after one day. OMG DRAMA!! Pff really try too be creative for once instead of whining after one day!
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The fact that he manner afk'ed for 5 minutes without any word is not mentioned. The fact that he was shittalking during the match the entire time is not mentioned either. Yes he lost to Happy and yes it was a pretty unfair fight... But trying out something like corruptor broodlord wouldnt harm
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On April 13 2015 21:37 Taronar wrote:
The fact that he manner afk'ed for 5 minutes without any word is not mentioned. The fact that he was shittalking during the match the entire time is not mentioned either. Yes he lost to Happy and yes it was a pretty unfair fight... But trying out something like corruptor broodlord wouldnt harm
corrupter broodlord vs mass thor raven is not an answer
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On April 13 2015 20:53 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote:
Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe)
- Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too)
- Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch).
- Increase the vision of Vipers
- Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability) We already had roach cost 1 supply, it was in the WoL beta. It wasn't very, ehm, funny. Every, and by every I mean every, PvZ was opened by 1gate robo. If you skipped the robo flood of roaches just killed you. Just imagine 200 Stephano build which hits earlier  I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign The vision of Vipers is a problem - I would suggest some lulz unit for scouting - overlord is pretty fragile and slow, so 1 pull(or blinding cloud) can be pretty costly even if you save all vipers. maybe vision upgrade for changelings? Oh... I know! Parasite the enemy units again! Can you imagine the feeling of the T player when he knows that these 4 Thors are reporting all the units, but he cannot afford to lose them? Mwahahahahaha!
Hence why Roach 1 supply would be to wild for a patch as it would require other tweaks as well. I still hope we see it in LOTV though as I dislike units that are so midgame focussed as the Roach.
Also I forgot: Overlord drop buff please!!! And it should be a big one!
The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
This is defnitely an area you don't think about when you just theorycraft, however, I am surprised Blizzard didn't notice the issue during their internal playtesting.
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Firecake isn't happy with the new swarmhost?
In other breaking news, Hillary Clinton is going to run for president of the United States
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On April 13 2015 10:03 shin_toss wrote:
all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans
They actually don't. This is the whole point of this thread(a pretty stupid one imo), we should wait a couple of months to see what happens, then zerg might get a buff on something else.
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Im still seeing nightmares after I saw vipers spell destroy 200/200 carriers in 5 second!
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well, I'm not a SH or FireCake fan myself, but this patch is quite big nonetheless.
I think we need another adjustment in 1-2 months, because seems too big of a change to simply compensate with BLs/Vipers.
Until LotV, I actually think that more Zerg favoured maps would work out. Atm, every race gets super easy 3rd's and even 4ths. Spread out the bases and make counter attacks easier for Zergs that would also make the new SH more viable as well, I think.
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I feel like if roaches and hydras had more micro potential (what was the delay in shooting animation - damage point?) like  bio they might be more cost effective. (Maybe not THE answer, but at least a step in the right direction)
I also really want to see someone using fungal + cloud...
(do  really have no way to get vision past their creep/army?)
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On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote:
Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe)
- Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too)
- Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch).
- Increase the vision of Vipers
- Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
The solution is very simple, you undo the patch.
First, the new Swarm Host design is just as shit as the old one, so there is nothing gained designwise. The only reason why people aren't bitching about free flying units killing all their shit right now is that the unit is not being used because it is either severely underpowered or it is not figured out how to abuse free units with it again.
Second, there are way too many endgame compositions that cause problems for zerg without the Swarm Host. You can try and buff roaches and hydras a bit and make the buff come out so late that it isn't useful for timing attacks, but the buff would need to be insane to make roach/hydra/viper somewhat supplyefficient against Templar, Tanks, Colossi, Voidrays, Thors. Because that's the crux, zerg units are cheap but heavy on the supply. That makes for a shitty endgame composition no matter how you tune it.
Of course you could experiment for the last 8months of HotS with back and forth changes, but the time for such stuff is up. That's a thing they should have done in the beta or the first year of HotS. It doesn't make sense to finetune for months now just to have the game die when the patches start working.
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All those silly zergs forgot about the ancient teachings of Nestea. Long before the first swarmhost hatched, the zerg god was using simple banelings to obliterate mech armies.
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EPT
