EPTThat way you have another late game option instead of SH.
FireCake delivers his opinion about the last patch - Page 4
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
That way you have another late game option instead of SH. | ||
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
On April 13 2015 22:12 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: All those silly zergs forgot about the ancient teachings of Nestea. Long before the first swarmhost hatched, the zerg god was using simple banelings to obliterate mech armies. There weren't Hellbat. And tanks were shooting slowly than now. Ah, there weren't also Widow Mines... Eeeeeeh, nice try  | ||
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fmod
Cayman Islands330 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On April 13 2015 22:16 IcemanAsi wrote: How about adding the Ultralisk and Adernal Gland buffs from LotV to HotS? That way you have another late game option instead of SH. how about adding cyclones, siege tank pick up and banshee buff? nice try zerg. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On April 13 2015 22:05 Big J wrote: The solution is very simple, you undo the patch. First, the new Swarm Host design is just as shit as the old one, so there is nothing gained designwise. The only reason why people aren't bitching about free flying units killing all their shit right now is that the unit is not being used because it is either severely underpowered or it is not figured out how to abuse free units with it again. Second, there are way too many endgame compositions that cause problems for zerg without the Swarm Host. You can try and buff roaches and hydras a bit and make the buff come out so late that it isn't useful for timing attacks, but the buff would need to be insane to make roach/hydra/viper somewhat supplyefficient against Templar, Tanks, Colossi, Voidrays, Thors. Because that's the crux, zerg units are cheap but heavy on the supply. That makes for a shitty endgame composition no matter how you tune it. Of course you could experiment for the last 8months of HotS with back and forth changes, but the time for such stuff is up. That's a thing they should have done in the beta or the first year of HotS. It doesn't make sense to finetune for months now just to have the game die when the patches start working. As much as I hate SH with overflowing passion I agree. The only needed nerf would be turning off the autocast of locusts and widening the gap for killing the SH so they cannot cast one wave after another and have to think about it a little bit. + maybe leaving them unburrowed(like the campaign version, where you needed upgrade to have them actually hidden and burrowed). I think that would be pretty huge nerf and from there we can adjust other units too. But Blizzard already did the nerfing part and I don't think they will remove it, so there's no reason to solve this, IMO. | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
On April 13 2015 20:53 deacon.frost wrote: I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign  I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now! On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it. just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait... edit: Even though miniroaches would prob be overpowered, I would love for Zerg to be a "swarmy" race. Thats probably whats annoying me more than anything else about turtle mech and protoss deathballs, its not possible to chip away at them or overman them anymore, Its all about that one engagement, everything else is way too costly for Zerg. | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On April 13 2015 22:44 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now! just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait... If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them. But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions? | ||
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
On April 13 2015 08:57 SuperHofmann wrote: Zergs are fucked until the next patch. Someone like Hydra said on Twitter that for the moment is probably better to switch directly to LotV since now ^^ Ah and the buff to the Viper is very funny... increase the range but hey, do you know that Zerg doesn't have way to expand the vision like scans or observers? eheheheh eh? i tie over lords with my army to fuck around with ai, send a couplke of those in | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On April 13 2015 22:58 Diks wrote: an overlord vision range upgrade would solve that issue (if it is one) Overseer buff. If any unit is supposed to have a vision buff then it is Overseer. It has many eyes and proper name  | ||
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Exstasy
United Kingdom393 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 13 2015 22:54 y0su wrote: If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them. But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions? Changelings are nice, but in general I don't get the theory behind the buff. To blind more than the most forward units you have to get into range of Templar, Tempest and Vikings and Thors, regardless of 10 or 11range. Additionally mobile anti-air units - vikings, stalker, phoenix - can be used to zone in front of the army anyways. This is a tiny statistical adjustment that may safe a Viper or two in a few games but it doesn't help with the issue of actually not getting good engagements with endgame deathballs. The vision thing is a small oversight, not sure how big it really is. Blinding Cloud has a radius of 2, so even with "only" 10range you would usually want to go in until you see the full radius of the cloud to get really efficient ones off. But as I said above, it's not a spell that you usually use at maximum distance to the opponent anyways, because you want to blind the backwards parts of his army as well. On April 13 2015 23:04 Exstasy wrote: Everyone in here suggesting new upgrades and changes. What's wrong with Overlord drops currently? No one uses them but I bet if you're trying to break a terran position or catch a couple of tanks you could drop ontop and run in with lings. They are as slow as a Thor (with the speed upgrade). An opponent just moving backwards while shooting the overlords with mobile units such as vikings or stalkers gets a ton of free kills. And since you have at least a big part of your army inside the dropships, you cannot even emphasize on an unsiege-->run move. | ||
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WonnaPlay
Netherlands912 Posts
On April 13 2015 22:54 y0su wrote: If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them. But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions? Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem. ,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem; Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11 So I don't get it?? | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On April 13 2015 22:35 Charoisaur wrote: how about adding cyclones, siege tank pick up and banshee buff? nice try zerg. Cute, but at the moment what is zerg late game army? Also, you do know that Cyclone is gonna get hit with the Mjölnir of nerf hammers right? | ||
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Noa Greenini
265 Posts
On April 13 2015 22:27 SuperHofmann wrote: There weren't Hellbat. And tanks were shooting slowly than now. Ah, there weren't also Widow Mines... Eeeeeeh, nice try Did the most obvious joke fly over your head or did you understanding the joke soar over mine? | ||
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On April 13 2015 23:09 WonnaPlay wrote: Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem. ,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem; Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11 So I don't get it?? this is exactly what I thought. He just seems very stubborn. His playstyle is of course directly affected, which was the most boring playstyle possible. Sure maybe zerg are weak now but its for the good of sc2 and esports. New playstyles will emerge and if needed zerg will be buffed to compensate | ||
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
I think that Zergs need a transition after Roach Hydra. A good reason to make +3 ranged atk. Zergs are forced to use Tier 2 against a Tier 3 composition just because they don't have a usefull Tier 3. Before there was SH (still Tier 2, but cost efficient against opponent Toer 3), now nothing | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 13 2015 23:09 WonnaPlay wrote: Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem. ,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem; Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11 So I don't get it?? Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ml2wagc.png) The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank. Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23580 Posts
On April 13 2015 23:35 Big J wrote: Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well: + Show Spoiler + The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank. Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them. Well put! | ||
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