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On April 14 2015 02:41 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising.
yeah. because of broodlord/infestor :D
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DK knows what he's doing. He has way more game knowledge than we all together. He would never go through with a balance patch if he thinks it will make the game imbalanced. He has made a nerf to SHs and compensated it with raven and tempest nerfs. If DK thinks this is enough to make sure the game is balanced he is probably right.
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On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote:
keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
so is cancer mech
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On April 14 2015 02:47 Dwayn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote:
keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring so is cancer mech
Which got nerfed just as much as SH ...
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On April 14 2015 02:47 Dwayn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote:
keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring so is cancer mech
It's not going to be cancer mech if the Z just dies. Then it will just be winning mech.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On April 14 2015 02:48 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 02:47 Dwayn wrote:On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote:
keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring so is cancer mech Which got nerfed just as much as SH ...
Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration.
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On April 14 2015 02:41 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising.
agreed. firecake should just accept he got outplayed. If he would practice in the time he cries maybe he would have found already a solution.
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On April 14 2015 02:49 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 02:48 Tenks wrote:On April 14 2015 02:47 Dwayn wrote:On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote:
keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring so is cancer mech Which got nerfed just as much as SH ... Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration.
If you engage into unsieged tanks and the Ravens blow their PDD load then just walk away and come back later. It used to be you had to come back in two minutes. As a bio player in TvT nothing was more annoying than tank+raven meaning it is impossible to gain back the ground if you gave it up because the PDD lasted forever.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On April 14 2015 02:53 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 02:49 Elentos wrote:On April 14 2015 02:48 Tenks wrote:On April 14 2015 02:47 Dwayn wrote:On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote:
keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring so is cancer mech Which got nerfed just as much as SH ... Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration. If you engage into unsieged tanks and the Ravens blow their PDD load then just walk away and come back later. It used to be you had to come back in two minutes. As a bio player in TvT nothing was more annoying than tank+raven meaning it is impossible to gain back the ground if you gave it up because the PDD lasted forever.
That nerf is still not nearly as hard hitting as the complete redesign of a unit that was a staple for late game ZvP and ZvMech. Imagine if the tank was redesigned into a harassment unit rather than what it currently is and made more expensive. Would mech players even build them? I doubt it, there's no incentive.
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On April 14 2015 02:53 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 02:49 Elentos wrote:On April 14 2015 02:48 Tenks wrote:On April 14 2015 02:47 Dwayn wrote:On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote:
keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring so is cancer mech Which got nerfed just as much as SH ... Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration. If you engage into unsieged tanks and the Ravens blow their PDD load then just walk away and come back later. It used to be you had to come back in two minutes. As a bio player in TvT nothing was more annoying than tank+raven meaning it is impossible to gain back the ground if you gave it up because the PDD lasted forever.
also it's a big nerf vs mass mutalisk because you can't periodically spread pdds around your turret rings anymore because they will just go away after 20 seconds
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On April 14 2015 02:56 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 02:53 Tenks wrote:On April 14 2015 02:49 Elentos wrote:On April 14 2015 02:48 Tenks wrote:On April 14 2015 02:47 Dwayn wrote:On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote:
keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring so is cancer mech Which got nerfed just as much as SH ... Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration. If you engage into unsieged tanks and the Ravens blow their PDD load then just walk away and come back later. It used to be you had to come back in two minutes. As a bio player in TvT nothing was more annoying than tank+raven meaning it is impossible to gain back the ground if you gave it up because the PDD lasted forever. also it's a big nerf vs mass mutalisk because you can't periodically spread pdds around your turret rings anymore because they will just go away after 20 seconds
If you are playing vs mass mutalisk maybe you should add 1 thor to that ring and be fine?
Saying that this is a big nerf vs mass mutalisk is the overstatement of the year, I don't know what terrans you think do that but people in EU GM doesnt do that.
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On April 14 2015 03:07 kiLen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 02:56 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2015 02:53 Tenks wrote:On April 14 2015 02:49 Elentos wrote:On April 14 2015 02:48 Tenks wrote:On April 14 2015 02:47 Dwayn wrote:On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote:
keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring so is cancer mech Which got nerfed just as much as SH ... Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration. If you engage into unsieged tanks and the Ravens blow their PDD load then just walk away and come back later. It used to be you had to come back in two minutes. As a bio player in TvT nothing was more annoying than tank+raven meaning it is impossible to gain back the ground if you gave it up because the PDD lasted forever. also it's a big nerf vs mass mutalisk because you can't periodically spread pdds around your turret rings anymore because they will just go away after 20 seconds If you are playing vs mass mutalisk maybe you should add 1 thor to that ring and be fine? Saying that this is a big nerf vs mass mutalisk is the overstatement of the year, I don't know what terrans you think do that but people in EU GM doesnt do that.
I'm not saying that mech can't deal anymore with mass mutas because it's definitely possible but it has gotten harder without a doubt.
And thors can be magicboxed lol. 1 thor + turrets is often not enough if they have like 50 mutalisks you need at least 2-3 thors per base with insane amounts of turrets.
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On April 14 2015 02:43 Charoisaur wrote:
DK knows what he's doing. He has way more game knowledge than we all together. He would never go through with a balance patch if he thinks it will make the game imbalanced. He has made a nerf to SHs and compensated it with raven and tempest nerfs. If DK thinks this is enough to make sure the game is balanced he is probably right.
O_O
You realize that this is actually a very bold claim, right?
David Kim allowed, among various things, BL/Infestor to stay in the game up to the point of a GSL semifinalist (!) typing "IMBAIMBAIMBA" at the end of a game.
He also allowed an atrocity like Daedalus 1.0 to not only get on ladder, but to be played in professional tournaments (!) among which GSL Code A (!) thus influencing the qualification for the hardest tournament in the world.
He adressed SH stalemates in ZvZ months (!) after the strategy was developed, while he before that killed the skillful way of dealing with SH ZvZ.
He nerfed the Widow Mine while players were adapting to it, only to break both Terran MUs.
He made Oracles faster to separate more skilled players from less skilled ones.
No really, I'm not sure if he knows what he's doing ; or at least I don't know if he is probably right.
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On April 14 2015 02:41 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising.
This is so irrelevant.
In WoL we had infestors, this was the counter to mech.
Why ? because we could spam thousands of infested terrans, and they were doing damage. Now they are useless : infested terran dps is too low and they die way too fast against hellbats.
By the way, the pdd nerf doesn't matter in big fights because fights never laster more than 20 sec.
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On April 14 2015 02:17 FireCake wrote:
I didn't expect this interview to be translate and put on TL.
Many people assume that players need time to adapt to the change.
But in fact we already know this situation, at the beginning of HoTs nobody knew how to use the SH and nobody tries. It took months before zergs players started to use the SH and understand how to play the late game. Before that there were many triple SG builds where the protoss players was spamming voidrays.
These builds are coming back because now that the game has been figured out (Yes, we are playing the same game for more than 2 years...) protoss and terrans players will always win after 20 min.
If you are terran or protoss you juste have to secure a third and start creating your deathball than slowly take a fourth base. Do not forget to put a lot of canons/turrets, its worth it because the zergs players will all in on 3/4 bases.
Yes we could win without directly using SH before the patch, but now the lack of SH allow terrans and protoss to stay defensive on 3-4 bases, this was not seen before the patch because it was not viable because of the SH. Because of the SH terrans and protoss had to be aggressive on 3/4 bases and thus the zerg could attack their armies on creep.
The most important thing to understand is that many players decisions revolved around the fear of the SH (if you camp i will make free units !).
I am really angry because i know David Kim doesn't care about this and will do nothing before LoTv.
Let's imagine this patch turns into a very unfair game where zerg underperformed.
It will take months before statistics show the imbalance, and then it will take months before viewers start to realize the situation, and then it will take months before David Kim might consider to maybe do something. But guess what, Lotv will be out soon so why should he tries something ?
I find it is nice to see you post here. Even though I am not a big fan of you and your attitude that is not the point here, there is no denying that you are actually very good at this game and that your opinion, although biased, is valuable.
In the end I think David Kim already knows all what you said but they did not have a choice, 1 hour (and more) game were not acceptable for broadcast, tournament schedule have been fucked up by these games and they could not continue with it. So they had to make a choice, even though it is a bad one and that it will break the game balance and (which is the worst part) encourage boring play of terrans and protoss. In the end we will se, in some extent it can be balanced through maps, but meh, that's a bad way to balance a game.
In your opinion, what would have been the best way to change the SH so the game is :
- still balanced, and
- makes long turtle-play non possible anymore?
Because within HOTS, I don't see how to do this.
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On April 14 2015 03:17 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 02:41 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising. This is so irrelevant. In WoL we had infestors, this was the counter to mech. Why ? because we could spam thousands of infested terrans, and they were doing damage. Now they are useless : infested terran dps is too low and they die way too fast against hellbats. By the way, the pdd nerf doesn't matter in big fights because fights never laster more than 20 sec.
Good points there Firecake!
Happy to see important players like you posting on the forums there ^^
I think, even if it sounds weird, that it is time to slightly rebuff Infestors and Broodlods. In the actual HotS, both Protoss and Terrans have got ways to counter both units better, and there is also the Fungal nerf.
So I'd make my bet on giving Broodlords some speed and decent acceleration/microability, rebuffing Infestor a bit and an obvious redesign to fit their intended harass role.
I wrote it 4 pages ago, no brained Zerg would go SH harass over a flock of mutalisks considering the SH gas and supply cost. Both mutas and Locusts are countered by the same units, except that Locusts are also countered by Hellbats when they land and they move much slower.
Maybe we need the same approach of the Campaign Swarm Host, with their revamped mobility. More spameable locusts, weaker, air locusts being faster and living shorter.... The campaign unit doesn't feel bad at all.
In the end of the day, a "harass" unit is intended to wear off the oponent by doing continuous minor damage. A
hybrid siege/harass like the intended SH should adjust to that philosophy, by having more mobile air locusts but demanding more proximity, and with less damage, instead of the expensive unit/terrible terrible damage/ big downtime design they have get.
Maybe we should have air locusts to attack directly from the air with less damage instead of being a BroodLord wannabe, considering that they hit at Hive + a long upgrade, so it's quite lategamy.
Broodlords and SwarmHosts should feel very different.
Time to mod out an Antipatch!.
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They can try to keep the swarmhost. But I wouldn't watch the games.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
I feel like turning the SH into a harass unit was the completely wrong move because they made them too expensive and they're also way too far up the tech tree to fill that role.
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On April 14 2015 06:12 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 03:17 FireCake wrote:On April 14 2015 02:41 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising. This is so irrelevant. In WoL we had infestors, this was the counter to mech. Why ? because we could spam thousands of infested terrans, and they were doing damage. Now they are useless : infested terran dps is too low and they die way too fast against hellbats. By the way, the pdd nerf doesn't matter in big fights because fights never laster more than 20 sec. Good points there Firecake! Happy to see important players like you posting on the forums there ^^ I think, even if it sounds weird, that it is time to slightly rebuff Infestors and Broodlods. In the actual HotS, both Protoss and Terrans have got ways to counter both units better, and there is also the Fungal nerf. So I'd make my bet on giving Broodlords some speed and decent acceleration/microability, rebuffing Infestor a bit and an obvious redesign to fit their intended harass role. I wrote it 4 pages ago, no brained Zerg would go SH harass over a flock of mutalisks considering the SH gas and supply cost. Both mutas and Locusts are countered by the same units, except that Locusts are also countered by Hellbats when they land and they move much slower. Maybe we need the same approach of the Campaign Swarm Host, with their revamped mobility. More spameable locusts, weaker, air locusts being faster and living shorter.... The campaign unit doesn't feel bad at all. In the end of the day, a "harass" unit is intended to wear off the oponent by doing continuous minor damage. A
hybrid siege/harass like the intended SH should adjust to that philosophy, by having more mobile air locusts but demanding more proximity, and with less damage, instead of the expensive unit/terrible terrible damage/ big downtime design they have get.Maybe we should have air locusts to attack directly from the air with less damage instead of being a BroodLord wannabe, considering that they hit at Hive + a long upgrade, so it's quite lategamy. Broodlords and SwarmHosts should feel very different. Time to mod out an Antipatch!.
I think it's time to buff siege tanks and ravens.
give tanks their flat 50 damage vs everything back and make pdd also effect melee attacks so mech has a better answer to ultras.
Tanks are countered so easily by ultras and ravens by infestors that they really need a bit more strength so mech is competitive again.
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United States252 Posts
They only made the SH change because people complained. Now they nerf SH and people complain. Can't have it both ways.
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EPT
