Hi everyone, here is Team aAa back with some more SC2 news. As the winner of Gamers Assembly 2015, along with a top 12 finish in WCS Premier League Season 1, the Zerg FireCake is unarguably the French player with the best results in recent history. Since many players have been left to wonder how they can possibly beat mech-based Terran armies, or even late game Protoss deathballs, we went to FireCake to hear what he had to say on the matter.
FireCake, a zerg champion
Team-aAa.com : Hi FireCake, and congratulations on your excellent performance in WCS, Fragbite, and Gamers Assembly ! We saw you have a lot of difficulty against Happy’s mech play in the Fragbite Masters Season 4 Semifinals, and you had even tried some different strategies. Do you think there is currently a viable way to defeat mech or is some kind of patch to the game required yet again ? FireCake : Even before the change to the swarmhost, mech could already be unkillable in the hyper-late game. It was very difficult, since we had to hunt down this air based composition of ravens, battlecruisers, and vikings. Why an air army ? To totally avoid the menace of the locusts. Now, with the change to the swarmhost, the Terran no longer has a need to make an air army. Thors and ravens alone suffice to completely destroy the Zerg. This army composition, in contrast to skyterran, is very easy to obtain and is devastatingly strong. We had a good look at it yesterday: I can attack the army on creep with a good concave, with ultralisks, hydralisks, blinding cloud, it just isn’t enough. After my second loss vs Happy, I asked for a pause to ask around for some help. The response from Ret was to “just forfeit or nydus allin.” At this point in time, only David Kim can truly beat Terran mech.
What do you think about the buff to the viper to possibly compensate for the swarmhost nerf ? Does it seem usable to you ? The buff has zero interest to me, already because the grab is important, but especially since the blinding cloud must be casted before attacking with our main army to even be effective. The problem is that it implies that you have to send the vipers in before the rest of your army to throw down blinding clouds, and then attack with your army. Except that the vipers have such small vision as it is, that increasing the range of the spell will actually do nothing in practicality.
The invincible army
What is your feeling about Protoss ? Are you having the same difficulties in the late game ? It’s the same exact problem. For two years, even since the beginning of HotS, Zergs haven’t really had a real solution to fight against void ray-based compositions. We adapted by using swarmhost-based armies just to be able to win. Now that it’s been nerfed, we return to the exact same spot we were in two years ago, fighting the same problems. Yesterday, Lilbow and Ptitdrogo told me they’re not entirely sure how Zergs are supposed to beat Protoss now. When a Protoss says that the day after a patch, there’s something very wrong.
What do you think of the new swarmhost, will it be able to find its own place in the metagame with time ? No, it will have absolutely no use. I explained that to David Kim directly but he insists on making a harass unit, which is not what the Zerg race needs at all. We need an army that can actually do something against that of our Protoss and Terran adversaries. We had almost a “cheating” army, since in lieu of a “real” army, we had one with free units that would progressively chip away at the opposing one. Now we actually have to gradually chip away with units that cost real resources, except that the Zerg runs out of money before we can take down the opposing army.
If you could change something about the balance of the game, what would you do ? There’s so many things, so it’s difficult to respond with one thing in particular since they’re all interconnected. I would just like for Zerg to be able to win in the late game (that’s saying something besides a three or four-base all-in). Just that, at the least, to be able to macro…
Theres one "to be able" too much in the last paragraph;)
With regard to the content I absolutely have the same opinion, I hope to get access to the Beta soon because I am not willing to play HotS at its current stage.. Luckily LotV is going to weaken the death ball principle and make the game more like bw, +1 for that.
Zergs are fucked until the next patch. Someone like Hydra said on Twitter that for the moment is probably better to switch directly to LotV since now ^^
Ah and the buff to the Viper is very funny... increase the range but hey, do you know that Zerg doesn't have way to expand the vision like scans or observers? eheheheh
On April 13 2015 08:57 SuperHofmann wrote: Zergs are fucked until the next patch. Someone like Hydra said on Twitter that for the moment is probably better to switch directly to LotV since now ^^
Ah and the buff to the Viper is very funny... increase the range but hey, do you know that Zerg doesn't have way to expand the vision like scans or observers? eheheheh
i think maps are also quite good for mech these days too, with very little army movement needed to secure 3 or 4 bases.
Maybe introduce some new maps to try to fix the issue like blizz did with blink allins?
I didnt see the games but i think ultra based armies are very good against mech because ultras are the unit most immune to ravens. Ideally, you fight once with ultras, get smashed and kill some of the terran stuff, then remax and destroy it. But doing this with an equal economy is the problem. Maybe zerg needs to get to a lower drone count to get more army supply against mech because taking fights with 30/40 supply less and expecting to win them is quite silly...
The problem with protoss is their AOE unit that kill everything and also requiert absolutely no skill to be used; A terran with bio forces need 3x more skill to defeat a toss who has Colossus, ht etc and for a zerg its the same but the biggest problem of zerg is forcefields. that allow toss to take favorables fight while their army is already stronger without it. that absolutely make no sense . toss is a joke since WoL and broodlord infestors was not imbalanced at all just toss dont know that rhy would have to allin before it come or use skyair to defeat it easily gg blizz
I think the new swarmhosts will find their niche on certain maps, and it allows a layout like daybreak to be viable again. It is definitely objectively healthy for the game.
Something like giving hydra range upgrade an additional +1 to range vs air strikes me as a start.
Also zergs and terran has to scout all the time what dirtty things a toss can do, if you miss a proxy pylon has zerg on the map you just can have a freelose and in terran if you pmiss a hidden buidling of the map too proxy sg, robo and blink/dt. When toss can just stay safe with 0 map vision with 1 sentry and 1 mothership core that defend everysingle allin.
I called it the day they announced what they were changing about the swarmhost. The change they implemented makes getting swarmhosts nothing more than luxury units. The increased cooldown in combination with the supply/gas nerf just doesn't make these worth making. I've even tried in a couple games just making 4-5 swarm hosts and using them strictly for harassing bases/expansions. The results for the cost are extremely underwhelming. I'm honestly okay with nerfing the supply/gas, but the cooldown is atrociously long.
The point that without SH Zergs can't really trade in late game. The only way is to try an all in with Hydra/Roach/Viper or hoping in a opponent that didn't scout the great spire. Swarm Host are not funnt to be played (old SH), but it was the only way to not trade 1:10 with the opponent.
So this patch has been floating around for months and barely anyone played/said anything. And now that it's out, Zerg is 'obviously' totally screwed until LotV? How about we hear the opinions of someone who actually played the test map a decent amount (like Snute) and isn't a BM prick?
On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
swarm hosts were the answer though. they were able to stand up to protoss death balls and terran mech. please tell me what a zerg player is supposed to do in the late game to beat terrans and protosses. our only ways to win is to do dumb allins in the mid game.
On April 13 2015 09:29 ZAiNs wrote: So this patch has been floating around for months and barely anyone played/said anything. And now that it's out, Zerg is 'obviously' totally screwed until LotV? How about we hear the opinions of someone who actually played the test map a decent amount (like Snute) and isn't a BM prick?
goswser after testing them: "I don't know what I should use them for" MorroW on LotV stream: "they are pretty useless" avilo on LotV stream: "thank you david kim. you have basically removed the swarm host" according to reddit Nathanias and Demuslim both said they have no clue what zerg should do against lategame Mech now. Ret: "Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings."
On April 13 2015 09:29 ZAiNs wrote: So this patch has been floating around for months and barely anyone played/said anything. And now that it's out, Zerg is 'obviously' totally screwed until LotV? How about we hear the opinions of someone who actually played the test map a decent amount (like Snute) and isn't a BM prick?
goswser after testing them: "I don't know what I should use them for" MorroW on LotV stream: "they are pretty useless" avilo on LotV stream: "thank you david kim. you have basically removed the swarm host" according to reddit Nathanias and Demuslim both said they have no clue what zerg should do against lategame Mech now. Ret: "Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings."
And where were they the last few months? I can't be bothered to find it but I'm pretty sure avilo made a post here about how stupid Blizzard was for buffing Zerg and nerfing Terran lol.
On April 13 2015 09:17 sagefreke wrote: I called it the day they announced what they were changing about the swarmhost. The change they implemented makes getting swarmhosts nothing more than luxury units. The increased cooldown in combination with the supply/gas nerf just doesn't make these worth making. I've even tried in a couple games just making 4-5 swarm hosts and using them strictly for harassing bases/expansions. The results for the cost are extremely underwhelming. I'm honestly okay with nerfing the supply/gas, but the cooldown is atrociously long.
I think this is widely acknowledged among viewers, but largely ignored by players on the balance test map, but SHs are so different from their prepatch role that they should not be built in any of the same situations. Saying the new Swarm Hosts suck is so irrelevant and pointless and somewhat distracting from the real issue. It's apples to oranges. The only role they can actually fulfill against a mech army is a sort of position breaker, so that you take out a few tanks and force the rest to unsiege. I'm not convinced they're useful against Protoss armies at all in any reasonable HotS game, although I've seen them in LotV to set up a quick wall of locusts against Disruptors to make them waste their purification novae on temporary units. Pretty cool trick, actually. I'd love to see the radius and HP of Locusts played around with a little bit, and maybe a slight reduction on the vespene gas of the SH itself.
If you could change something about the balance of the game, what would you do ? There’s so many things, so it’s difficult to respond with one thing in particular since they’re all interconnected. I would just like for Zerg to be able to win in the late game (that’s saying something besides a three or four-base all-in). Just that, at the least, to be able to macro…
isn't that CALLED a macro game? honestly if we're listening to this guy try to bore his way back into WCS via Snore Host stupidities, the SC2 really is in a sorry state
This is not hard: if it turns out that Zerg is too weak without the old swarm hosts, some other unit will get buffed to compensate. The bottom line is that the game is way way way better off without the old swarm hosts and getting them out of the game is easily worth some rebalancing that might have to be done.
And I call BS right now on the "Zerg can't win in the late game without swarm hosts." I've seen plenty of Koreans beat top end T and P in late game without swarm hosts even before this patch. Just off the top of my head:
On April 13 2015 09:51 Yakikorosu wrote: This is not hard: if it turns out that Zerg is too weak without the old swarm hosts, some other unit will get buffed to compensate. The bottom line is that the game is way way way better off without the old swarm hosts and getting them out of the game is easily worth some rebalancing that might have to be done.
And I call BS right now on the "Zerg can't win in the late game without swarm hosts." I've seen plenty of Koreans beat top end T and P in late game without swarm hosts even before this patch. Just off the top of my head:
People have unrealistic expectations. Professional broadcast matches are ridiculously balanced right now. WCS and SSL were won by Terrans, GSL by a zerg, proleague is literally as balanced as it can be (within 1% of being 50-50 in each matchup.) We haven't had enough of a sample from the patch at the highest level to see the effect it has. If this changes drastically then you can make this argument. The people who make claims like this do so because they want the game to be played a certain way.
On April 13 2015 09:51 Yakikorosu wrote: This is not hard: if it turns out that Zerg is too weak without the old swarm hosts, some other unit will get buffed to compensate. The bottom line is that the game is way way way better off without the old swarm hosts and getting them out of the game is easily worth some rebalancing that might have to be done.
And I call BS right now on the "Zerg can't win in the late game without swarm hosts." I've seen plenty of Koreans beat top end T and P in late game without swarm hosts even before this patch. Just off the top of my head:
The Good: The patch is certainly attracting a lot of renewed attention to the game. It's nice Blizzard is willing to make big changes.
The Bad: Mech will be unbeatable. It's nice and all that Blizz is actively patching, but now they gotta fix their mess. You gotta be pretty naive to think things will be fine and dandy after removing the most integral zerg unit.
Firecake might have a bad rep, but he's a fantastic player who has proven his worth with a variety of styles.
David Kim took the poorest decisions regarding Zerg.
They pushed LotV Swarmhost when they needed to rebuff infestor ptojectile speed (from 12 to 15) and bring in LotV Viper spell (a bit nerfed).
Broodlord truly needed a mobility buff, not SwarmHost.
Swadrmhost shoud have had Enduring locusts removed and given the possibility to spawn both types of locusts, short lived with short CD. (True harrass). More dispensable waves ate better than big dps waves spammed les often, since they fit the mentality of the exhausing tactics against static strategies. Now that Swarmhosts are mobile, they should split their attack CD and strength in 2 and let them abuse mobility and flying locusts balanced around mobility instead of damage.
At 100/200 cost, almost no zerg is going to take SH over mutas toharass over mutlisks, considering the gogh cost of getting flying locusts.. (Hive + 200/200 160s upgrade) Flying locusts and mutas are also countered by the same units. So Swarmhosts, if they want them to push as harass and dipensable antiturtle measure, should be less powerful, but cheaper (old cost) and more mobile, exchanging mobility for power and endurance. They are right now the opposite thing that they want them to be.
it's funny, SH are nerfed and redesigned but they needed to be. They are still very good they just need to be used differently and creatively. Imagine using a batch of SH's to harrass one base (more options now with flying locusts) and then harassing the other side of the map with mutas.
Pros and high level players have a reasonable concern against turtle styles but lower level players are just mad that they don't have a constant harassment that doesn't drain multitasking.
On April 13 2015 09:51 Yakikorosu wrote: This is not hard: if it turns out that Zerg is too weak without the old swarm hosts, some other unit will get buffed to compensate. The bottom line is that the game is way way way better off without the old swarm hosts and getting them out of the game is easily worth some rebalancing that might have to be done.
And I call BS right now on the "Zerg can't win in the late game without swarm hosts." I've seen plenty of Koreans beat top end T and P in late game without swarm hosts even before this patch. Just off the top of my head:
On April 13 2015 20:13 Exstasy wrote: it's funny, SH are nerfed and redesigned but they needed to be. They are still very good they just need to be used differently and creatively. Imagine using a batch of SH's to harrass one base (more options now with flying locusts) and then harassing the other side of the map with mutas.
Pros and high level players have a reasonable concern against turtle styles but lower level players are just mad that they don't have a constant harassment that doesn't drain multitasking.
The problem isn't that actual SH are useless. They are re-designed now, so they have a new aim into the game. Ok but, now there's a lack of composition in the late game for the Zerg, that's the key. Actual SH can be really good for something that isn't a late game composition, is just a skirmish unit (like DTs for the Protoss, nobody makes an army of 40 DTs, they make 5-6 of them to harrass).
When a Protoss says that the day after a patch, there’s something very wrong.
That's the wrongest thing I've heard recently. A lot of stuff in SC2's history was broken for months before it was figured out. What people say one day after a patch is basically irrelevant.
On April 13 2015 10:03 shin_toss wrote: all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans
What other unit can you have to deal with late game Protoss and maxed Terran Mech lol
don't let them get there
isn't that what you guys told us at the end of Lings of Liberty?
yeah and BL/infestor was fucking broken wasn't it? Unless it's another retardiculous attempt at justifying Zerg being weaker by saying that it was overpowered in 2012
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
If you could change something about the balance of the game, what would you do ? There’s so many things, so it’s difficult to respond with one thing in particular since they’re all interconnected. I would just like for Zerg to be able to win in the late game (that’s saying something besides a three or four-base all-in). Just that, at the least, to be able to macro…
isn't that CALLED a macro game? honestly if we're listening to this guy try to bore his way back into WCS via Snore Host stupidities, the SC2 really is in a sorry state
no it's the exact same situation as late WoL: do a timing attack or die since you got no lategame. that the timings occurs at 5 or 15min doesn't change the fact it's an awful thing.
On April 13 2015 20:13 Exstasy wrote: it's funny, SH are nerfed and redesigned but they needed to be. They are still very good they just need to be used differently and creatively. Imagine using a batch of SH's to harrass one base (more options now with flying locusts) and then harassing the other side of the map with mutas.
Pros and high level players have a reasonable concern against turtle styles but lower level players are just mad that they don't have a constant harassment that doesn't drain multitasking.
The problem isn't that actual SH are useless. They are re-designed now, so they have a new aim into the game. Ok but, now there's a lack of composition in the late game for the Zerg, that's the key. Actual SH can be really good for something that isn't a late game composition, is just a skirmish unit (like DTs for the Protoss, nobody makes an army of 40 DTs, they make 5-6 of them to harrass).
Well now that they don't need to burrow to spawn locusts they're quite different from dt's even in how they harrass, detection doesn't necessarily play into it. with the long cooldown there isn't a lot of reason to keep your sh's burrowed in a dangerous area you might as well use them like:
Spawn locusts -> Shift click to other side of the map -> spawn locusts etc
Then just try to have this constant harrass from all sides that drains your opponents attention/money for static defense trade for units/workers.
They're really not that bad. It's just an investment that at the top level may be too much in a lot of situations.
On April 13 2015 10:03 shin_toss wrote: all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans
What other unit can you have to deal with late game Protoss and maxed Terran Mech lol
don't let them get there
isn't that what you guys told us at the end of Lings of Liberty?
yeah and BL/infestor was fucking broken wasn't it? Unless it's another retardiculous attempt at justifying Zerg being weaker by saying that it was overpowered in 2012
infestor was imbalanced since 2010 and only halfway 2012 people started abusing it. The infestor "buff" back then, was hardly a buff, it just opened alot of people's eyes to try it out.
Players just have to find a new style again. I mean, basically every P and T has been countering Swarmhosts the last 12 months, so ofcourse if they play the same style against not-so-strong-Swarmhosts, they will WRECK everything. Zergs who'm have been abusing Swarmhosts just need to adapt again. Like with every patch
On April 13 2015 10:03 shin_toss wrote: all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans
What other unit can you have to deal with late game Protoss and maxed Terran Mech lol
don't let them get there
isn't that what you guys told us at the end of Lings of Liberty?
yeah and BL/infestor was fucking broken wasn't it? Unless it's another retardiculous attempt at justifying Zerg being weaker by saying that it was overpowered in 2012
infestor was imbalanced since 2010 and only halfway 2012 people started abusing it. The infestor "buff" back then, was hardly a buff, it just opened alot of people's eyes to try it out.
Players just have to find a new style again. I mean, basically every P and T has been countering Swarmhosts the last 12 months, so ofcourse if they play the same style against not-so-strong-Swarmhosts, they will WRECK everything. Zergs who'm have been abusing Swarmhosts just need to adapt again. Like with every patch
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
We already had roach cost 1 supply, it was in the WoL beta. It wasn't very, ehm, funny. Every, and by every I mean every, PvZ was opened by 1gate robo. If you skipped the robo flood of roaches just killed you. Just imagine 200 Stephano build which hits earlier
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
The vision of Vipers is a problem - I would suggest some lulz unit for scouting - overlord is pretty fragile and slow, so 1 pull(or blinding cloud) can be pretty costly even if you save all vipers. maybe vision upgrade for changelings? Oh... I know! Parasite the enemy units again! Can you imagine the feeling of the T player when he knows that these 4 Thors are reporting all the units, but he cannot afford to lose them? Mwahahahahaha!
well, let's wait a bit more. Until LotV comes out: - I think maps with spread out 3rd's and 4th's can help Zergs. (ppl forget map balance and its big role in the game) - Buff Infestors again? (Increase the speed of a fungal...) - and what others have already said with an increase of sight for the viper. That could help a bit?
ZvP will be much harder now, but I still think more Z-favourable maps could fix that. Same with playing mech: you simply can't play mech on every map, so map balance could fix that as well.
Sure, it'd be nice if every race could enter late game, but that's hardly possible. Just as a reminder: Look at TvP. It's also quite broken in that regard. It can hardly be won by terran in late game (and NO scv-pulls are not "LAZY-boy-pushes...it's usually the only window a terran has)
The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
Seriously? you can't have 12 range vision? what game are you playing?
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
Seriously? you can't have 12 range vision? what game are you playing?
No I meant Vipers don't have 12 vision. So 12 range does nothing. It's not like zerg can use observers or revelation like Protoss. Unless the opponent runs on creep you can't use the 12 range blinding cloud is what I mean. It's not like changelings work on that level.
OMG firecake thougt one night about the patch and he could not find the answer DRAMA!!!! After his 2-0 loss agaist happy he asked for a pauze.... And called for help.... but Ret also didn't know the answer after one day. OMG DRAMA!! Pff really try too be creative for once instead of whining after one day!
The fact that he manner afk'ed for 5 minutes without any word is not mentioned. The fact that he was shittalking during the match the entire time is not mentioned either. Yes he lost to Happy and yes it was a pretty unfair fight... But trying out something like corruptor broodlord wouldnt harm
On April 13 2015 21:37 Taronar wrote: The fact that he manner afk'ed for 5 minutes without any word is not mentioned. The fact that he was shittalking during the match the entire time is not mentioned either. Yes he lost to Happy and yes it was a pretty unfair fight... But trying out something like corruptor broodlord wouldnt harm
corrupter broodlord vs mass thor raven is not an answer
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
We already had roach cost 1 supply, it was in the WoL beta. It wasn't very, ehm, funny. Every, and by every I mean every, PvZ was opened by 1gate robo. If you skipped the robo flood of roaches just killed you. Just imagine 200 Stephano build which hits earlier
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
The vision of Vipers is a problem - I would suggest some lulz unit for scouting - overlord is pretty fragile and slow, so 1 pull(or blinding cloud) can be pretty costly even if you save all vipers. maybe vision upgrade for changelings? Oh... I know! Parasite the enemy units again! Can you imagine the feeling of the T player when he knows that these 4 Thors are reporting all the units, but he cannot afford to lose them? Mwahahahahaha!
Hence why Roach 1 supply would be to wild for a patch as it would require other tweaks as well. I still hope we see it in LOTV though as I dislike units that are so midgame focussed as the Roach.
Also I forgot: Overlord drop buff please!!! And it should be a big one!
The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
This is defnitely an area you don't think about when you just theorycraft, however, I am surprised Blizzard didn't notice the issue during their internal playtesting.
On April 13 2015 10:03 shin_toss wrote: all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans
They actually don't. This is the whole point of this thread(a pretty stupid one imo), we should wait a couple of months to see what happens, then zerg might get a buff on something else.
well, I'm not a SH or FireCake fan myself, but this patch is quite big nonetheless.
I think we need another adjustment in 1-2 months, because seems too big of a change to simply compensate with BLs/Vipers. Until LotV, I actually think that more Zerg favoured maps would work out. Atm, every race gets super easy 3rd's and even 4ths. Spread out the bases and make counter attacks easier for Zergs that would also make the new SH more viable as well, I think.
I feel like if roaches and hydras had more micro potential (what was the delay in shooting animation - damage point?) like bio they might be more cost effective. (Maybe not THE answer, but at least a step in the right direction)
I also really want to see someone using fungal + cloud... (do really have no way to get vision past their creep/army?)
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
The solution is very simple, you undo the patch. First, the new Swarm Host design is just as shit as the old one, so there is nothing gained designwise. The only reason why people aren't bitching about free flying units killing all their shit right now is that the unit is not being used because it is either severely underpowered or it is not figured out how to abuse free units with it again. Second, there are way too many endgame compositions that cause problems for zerg without the Swarm Host. You can try and buff roaches and hydras a bit and make the buff come out so late that it isn't useful for timing attacks, but the buff would need to be insane to make roach/hydra/viper somewhat supplyefficient against Templar, Tanks, Colossi, Voidrays, Thors. Because that's the crux, zerg units are cheap but heavy on the supply. That makes for a shitty endgame composition no matter how you tune it. Of course you could experiment for the last 8months of HotS with back and forth changes, but the time for such stuff is up. That's a thing they should have done in the beta or the first year of HotS. It doesn't make sense to finetune for months now just to have the game die when the patches start working.
All those silly zergs forgot about the ancient teachings of Nestea. Long before the first swarmhost hatched, the zerg god was using simple banelings to obliterate mech armies.
On April 13 2015 22:12 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: All those silly zergs forgot about the ancient teachings of Nestea. Long before the first swarmhost hatched, the zerg god was using simple banelings to obliterate mech armies.
There weren't Hellbat. And tanks were shooting slowly than now. Ah, there weren't also Widow Mines... Eeeeeeh, nice try
As much as I dislike Firecake and SH, he is, I fear, quite right on this matter. At least if there is no solution for late game army zerg should have better options for breaking turtle in the midgame, like better drop and stuff like that.
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
The solution is very simple, you undo the patch. First, the new Swarm Host design is just as shit as the old one, so there is nothing gained designwise. The only reason why people aren't bitching about free flying units killing all their shit right now is that the unit is not being used because it is either severely underpowered or it is not figured out how to abuse free units with it again. Second, there are way too many endgame compositions that cause problems for zerg without the Swarm Host. You can try and buff roaches and hydras a bit and make the buff come out so late that it isn't useful for timing attacks, but the buff would need to be insane to make roach/hydra/viper somewhat supplyefficient against Templar, Tanks, Colossi, Voidrays, Thors. Because that's the crux, zerg units are cheap but heavy on the supply. That makes for a shitty endgame composition no matter how you tune it. Of course you could experiment for the last 8months of HotS with back and forth changes, but the time for such stuff is up. That's a thing they should have done in the beta or the first year of HotS. It doesn't make sense to finetune for months now just to have the game die when the patches start working.
As much as I hate SH with overflowing passion I agree. The only needed nerf would be turning off the autocast of locusts and widening the gap for killing the SH so they cannot cast one wave after another and have to think about it a little bit. + maybe leaving them unburrowed(like the campaign version, where you needed upgrade to have them actually hidden and burrowed). I think that would be pretty huge nerf and from there we can adjust other units too.
But Blizzard already did the nerfing part and I don't think they will remove it, so there's no reason to solve this, IMO.
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
edit: Even though miniroaches would prob be overpowered, I would love for Zerg to be a "swarmy" race. Thats probably whats annoying me more than anything else about turtle mech and protoss deathballs, its not possible to chip away at them or overman them anymore, Its all about that one engagement, everything else is way too costly for Zerg.
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them.
But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions?
On April 13 2015 08:57 SuperHofmann wrote: Zergs are fucked until the next patch. Someone like Hydra said on Twitter that for the moment is probably better to switch directly to LotV since now ^^
Ah and the buff to the Viper is very funny... increase the range but hey, do you know that Zerg doesn't have way to expand the vision like scans or observers? eheheheh
eh? i tie over lords with my army to fuck around with ai, send a couplke of those in
Everyone in here suggesting new upgrades and changes. What's wrong with Overlord drops currently? No one uses them but I bet if you're trying to break a terran position or catch a couple of tanks you could drop ontop and run in with lings.
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them.
But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions?
Changelings are nice, but in general I don't get the theory behind the buff. To blind more than the most forward units you have to get into range of Templar, Tempest and Vikings and Thors, regardless of 10 or 11range. Additionally mobile anti-air units - vikings, stalker, phoenix - can be used to zone in front of the army anyways. This is a tiny statistical adjustment that may safe a Viper or two in a few games but it doesn't help with the issue of actually not getting good engagements with endgame deathballs.
The vision thing is a small oversight, not sure how big it really is. Blinding Cloud has a radius of 2, so even with "only" 10range you would usually want to go in until you see the full radius of the cloud to get really efficient ones off. But as I said above, it's not a spell that you usually use at maximum distance to the opponent anyways, because you want to blind the backwards parts of his army as well.
On April 13 2015 23:04 Exstasy wrote: Everyone in here suggesting new upgrades and changes. What's wrong with Overlord drops currently? No one uses them but I bet if you're trying to break a terran position or catch a couple of tanks you could drop ontop and run in with lings.
They are as slow as a Thor (with the speed upgrade). An opponent just moving backwards while shooting the overlords with mobile units such as vikings or stalkers gets a ton of free kills. And since you have at least a big part of your army inside the dropships, you cannot even emphasize on an unsiege-->run move.
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them.
But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions?
Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem.
,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem;
Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11
On April 13 2015 22:12 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: All those silly zergs forgot about the ancient teachings of Nestea. Long before the first swarmhost hatched, the zerg god was using simple banelings to obliterate mech armies.
There weren't Hellbat. And tanks were shooting slowly than now. Ah, there weren't also Widow Mines... Eeeeeeh, nice try
Did the most obvious joke fly over your head or did you understanding the joke soar over mine?
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them.
But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions?
Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem.
,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem;
Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11
So I don't get it??
this is exactly what I thought. He just seems very stubborn. His playstyle is of course directly affected, which was the most boring playstyle possible. Sure maybe zerg are weak now but its for the good of sc2 and esports. New playstyles will emerge and if needed zerg will be buffed to compensate
I think that a good way to solve the problem is to let Tier 3 avaiable. Both Ultralisk and Broodlords are usueless and easy to counter. I think that Zergs need a transition after Roach Hydra. A good reason to make +3 ranged atk. Zergs are forced to use Tier 2 against a Tier 3 composition just because they don't have a usefull Tier 3. Before there was SH (still Tier 2, but cost efficient against opponent Toer 3), now nothing
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them.
But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions?
Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem.
,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem;
Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11
So I don't get it??
Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well: The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank.
Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them.
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them.
But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions?
Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem.
,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem;
Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11
So I don't get it??
Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well: + Show Spoiler +
The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank.
Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them.
On April 13 2015 23:04 Exstasy wrote: Everyone in here suggesting new upgrades and changes. What's wrong with Overlord drops currently? No one uses them but I bet if you're trying to break a terran position or catch a couple of tanks you could drop ontop and run in with lings.
please stop trolling.
first of, researching drop is very expensive. secondly, Overlords are a bit too slow for dropping to be efficient. its way to easy to snipe off overlords before they get to load out the units and because of that, youre almost guaranteed to not only lose all the units but all the overlords too. Additionally, Terran got hellbats now, dropping roaches 1by1 per overlord into hellbats wont do much.
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them.
But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions?
Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem.
,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem;
Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11
So I don't get it??
Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well:
The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank.
Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them.
Thats how most AoE spells work tho, like Storm and EMP, you put the spell caster at a risk anyway because there is stuff with enough range that will kill it.
I think that if zerg needs anything vs mech is make the blinding cloud radius bigger, to deal with big balls of mech in the lategame.
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them.
But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions?
Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem.
,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem;
Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11
So I don't get it??
Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well:
The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank.
Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them.
Thats how most AoE spells work tho, like Storm and EMP, you put the spell caster at a risk anyway because there is stuff with enough range that will kill it.
I think that if zerg needs anything vs mech is make the blinding cloud range bigger, to deal with big balls of mech in the lategame.
I guess you mean the radius? Could do something I guess.
Anyhow, the real problem are still air armies for zerg, a pure ground mech army can actually be beaten. We'll just have to see what will happen, in the end I still think we need a anti air buff for HotS or voidray/storm and raven armies will just be too much. Zerg can't even zone out hts now. But we'll see in a month or so.
On April 13 2015 23:04 Exstasy wrote: Everyone in here suggesting new upgrades and changes. What's wrong with Overlord drops currently? No one uses them but I bet if you're trying to break a terran position or catch a couple of tanks you could drop ontop and run in with lings.
please stop trolling.
Please stop crying because you have to adapt your playstyle.
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them.
But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions?
Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem.
,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem;
Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11
So I don't get it??
Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well:
The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank.
Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them.
Thats how most AoE spells work tho, like Storm and EMP, you put the spell caster at a risk anyway because there is stuff with enough range that will kill it.
EMP has 10range+1.5AoE with a 11sight ghost. Storm has 9range+1.5AoE with an 10sight templar.
In both those cases you only have uncertainty of a 0.5radius section of the 1.5radius circle. With Swarm Hosts its over half of its AoE radius that is in the dark if cast from maximum range. Since I'm checking, fungal actually has the same vision range problem with 10sight infestors and 10range fungal, casting half of it in the dark if you want to do it perfectly.
You are right with casters exposing them anyways to some degree, which is why I think 10 or 11range is a pretty nonsensical discussion. It doesn't really alter any unit interaction, it is a tiny statistical buff that will in the one or other situation safe a shot on the viper, but it's not something like increasing the range of a marine to 6 so stalkers couldn't kite them anymore which would effectively alter gameplay.
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them.
But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions?
Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem.
,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem;
Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11
So I don't get it??
Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well:
The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank.
Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them.
Thats how most AoE spells work tho, like Storm and EMP, you put the spell caster at a risk anyway because there is stuff with enough range that will kill it.
I think that if zerg needs anything vs mech is make the blinding cloud range bigger, to deal with big balls of mech in the lategame.
I guess you mean the radius? Could do something I guess.
Anyhow, the real problem are still air armies for zerg, a pure ground mech army can actually be beaten. We'll just have to see what will happen, in the end I still think we need a anti air buff for HotS or voidray/storm and raven armies will just be too much. Zerg can't even zone out hts now. But we'll see in a month or so.
Ehhh yes radius lol.
I actually don't see that, air armies are not that hard to deal with, with PDD nerf once you blind tanks and thors, you can use infestors in the air army, also broodlords are actually quite strong against mech, maybe even hydras.
It all depends on how the zergs learn to deal with the PDD nerf, I think if they learn to bait them and then engage when they run out (kinda like force fields) they could deal with raven armies pretty well.
On April 13 2015 20:28 Hider wrote: Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe) - Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too) - Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch). - Increase the vision of Vipers - Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
I can imagine some T3 upgrade for Roach which enables the "free mini roaches" when roach dies, just like we had in the campaign
I didnt know how much Ive always wanted this until now!
On April 13 2015 20:59 Musicus wrote: The part about the viper cloud buff doing nothing since you don't have range 12 vision was just completely overlooked by Blizzard I think. Wtf, didn't think of it either, they really need to change that. Just give the Viper LotV anti air spell with it, while they are at it.
just use cheap units to grant the vision, like locusts. Oh wait...
If just there were some sort of free/energy units that could give you vision... maybe even ones that didn't trigger enemy units to attack them.
But seriously, is Zerg vision really an issue without solutions?
Zerg can view about 60% of the map at all times, due to creep and overlords, can occupy all the watchtowers almost permanently due to speedlings, and has overseers which can go at almost the speed of mutalisks. The fact that Vipers cannot see the remaining 20% of the map is ofcourse a huge problem.
,.,. After looking at the stats.. I don't even see the problem;
Viper Blinding Cloud Range - 11 Viper Sight Range - 11
So I don't get it??
Visualization of the problem with an 11range spell having 2AoE radius if its caster only has 11range sight as well: The half of the spell behind the tank in that awesome drawing is not visible to the zerg player. For all he knows he is wasting the cloud on a single tank.
Therefore to use the spell better, you already have to get closer than 11range anyways, to see if there are even clusters of units. Ideally, the Viper would want to have at least 11+2 sight range (spell range + AoE range) to place the spell perfectly at full range. This has previously already been too low with 10+2>11sight range. But previously you would usually spot with locusts, so you could actually use the 10range anyways perfectly. Obviously, zerg could now use other spotters than locusts, but that's the general issue Firecake is talking about when you send in your Vipers upfront before your actual army, which is the correct way to use them.
Hmm, thanks for this explanation, it still seems like a very minor issue, but atleast I can understand what the fuzz is about. But like I said in my previous post, Zerg can most of the time already see about 50% of the map ("their own territory"), so this only applies in attacking off creep.
As for Tempests, you need either an observer (which keep dying) or an oracle with 75 energy, to get to their 15 range (12 sight).
Zergs just need to adjust aswell now, for example ; Overseers with speed have ; 1.875 (+1.5) = 3.375 speed, which is faster than Vipers, with their 2.9531 speed. They also have 11 range, which should be sufficient aswell. Furthermore, zergs can experiment with burrowing zerglings accross key spots in the map etc. etc.
I dont even wanna know his opinion on anything, especially not this matter... People seem so lost when it come to trying new stuff also, maybe time to try something else than uve done over the last year/s? we all tend to go into a comfortzone what we are used to be playing etc. Always seems to be the koreans that will find ways of new stuff/builds and then foreigners copying.
On April 14 2015 00:18 andrewlt wrote: If mech is so powerful against zerg, why is it not widely used against zerg in Korean leagues?
maybe because the patch has only been out for one day of proleague, in which of the two ZvTs one was cheese and one was Mech.
Let's face it, the foreign zerg style needs to die. It's been a turtle into bullshit boring composition since WoL was released in 2010.
Yeah, watching Lillekannin, Happy, avilo, Beasty and all those other turtleterrans is so much more fun...
It's funny because Terran has had the decision power what units zerg can play since 2010. If you don't want to play against Swarm Hosts besides weirdo zerg strategies, all you had to do was just open bio. It's retarted. Zerg has been the race forced to play reactive. If anyone had the right to complain about being forced into certain playstyles while their Terran opponent can choose what they want it is Zergs.
Yet here we find ourselves, being called abusers and similar stuff just because you guys feel entitled to not only play the way you want to, but also to choose that we cannot use certain units because you don't find it fun.
On April 13 2015 23:19 SuperHofmann wrote: I think that a good way to solve the problem is to let Tier 3 avaiable. Both Ultralisk and Broodlords are usueless and easy to counter. I think that Zergs need a transition after Roach Hydra. A good reason to make +3 ranged atk. Zergs are forced to use Tier 2 against a Tier 3 composition just because they don't have a usefull Tier 3. Before there was SH (still Tier 2, but cost efficient against opponent Toer 3), now nothing
Sounds like your talking about TvP in HotS...just switched Terran with Zerg o_O
Based on results either Korean don't play mech or are not sucessful with it.
Or it takes time to see whether it is good or not. Or it takes time to train Mech if you only trained bio for the last 2years. Or it takes time to adjust to playing against the new swarm hosts. Or all the games were decided by cheeses. Or we will find the same retarded balance that Protoss vs Zerg had in the Sentry/Immortal era. The patch is young, we will see how good it is in the next months.
There is little to be said about the balance after the patch right now besides the patch hitting a very well balanced enviroment with an unsure outcome. Designwise I don't like the change anyways. It's flying, stronger free units instead of free units more frequently. If they would be so eager to do the game something good just remove the damn thing in LotV and balance from there. Timingwise it is horrible. The professional playerbase is split between playing LotV and training their old HotS strategies - but those old HotS strategies have taken a major blow for Zerg players. Blizzard is focusing heavily on LotV, which means it is even less likely that they will pay attention to balance problems and tweak if necessary. And even if after some balance the game turns out well balanced again, after that process there will be not HotS left to be played because LotV is coming out.
typical zerg whine. The foreign zergs just want their afk-hosts back so they can bore their opponents to death. When they are forced to adapt they just cry instead and ask for David kim to solve their issues. Mech just got a huge blow by the stupid pdd nerf and the retarded blinding cloud buff and the swarmhost didn't even get nerfed. the new swarmhost is probably even better than the old one because they force friendly fire from the tanks when they land in front of them. But the problem is that they aren't autocast anymore so the zergs can't go afk anymore and both players have to control their units. That is firecakes problem. he refuses to adapt and instead cries for david kim to help him. In korea mech will probably die out with the patch and we will be back to bio all day every day. So much diversity wow. Blinding cloud is way to strong vs mech. Have your tanks a little bit stacked one time and it's instantly gg. If david kim wants to see something else than bio in every game blinding cloud should be removed from the game immediately. It's the most retarded spell in the entire game. with one click it renders a 200 supply mech army useless and let's you instant win the game. and if it didn't work just throw a nydus in the opponents base and enjoy your freewin.
On April 14 2015 01:38 Charoisaur wrote: typical zerg whine. The foreign zergs just want their afk-hosts back so they can bore their opponents to death. When they are forced to adapt they just cry instead and ask for David kim to solve their issues. Mech just got a huge blow by the stupid pdd nerf and the retarded blinding cloud buff and the swarmhost didn't even get nerfed. the new swarmhost is probably even better than the old one because they force friendly fire from the tanks when they land in front of them. But the problem is that they aren't autocast anymore so the zergs can't go afk anymore and both players have to control their units. That is firecakes problem. he refuses to adapt and instead cries for david kim to help him. In korea mech will probably die out with the patch and we will be back to bio all day every day. So much diversity wow. Blinding cloud is way to strong vs mech. Have your tanks a little bit stacked one time and it's instantly gg. If david kim wants to see something else than bio in every game blinding cloud should be removed from the game immediately. It's the most retarded spell in the entire game. with one click it renders a 200 supply mech army useless and let's you instant win the game. and if it didn't work just throw a nydus in the opponents base and enjoy your freewin.
If we are at the same situation three or four months from now, sure, go ahead and buff something. Up until then I think these sorts of discussions are useless unless they turn a non-salty focus on what zerg can do instead.
On April 14 2015 01:38 Charoisaur wrote: typical zerg whine. The foreign zergs just want their afk-hosts back so they can bore their opponents to death. When they are forced to adapt they just cry instead and ask for David kim to solve their issues. Mech just got a huge blow by the stupid pdd nerf and the retarded blinding cloud buff and the swarmhost didn't even get nerfed. the new swarmhost is probably even better than the old one because they force friendly fire from the tanks when they land in front of them. But the problem is that they aren't autocast anymore so the zergs can't go afk anymore and both players have to control their units. That is firecakes problem. he refuses to adapt and instead cries for david kim to help him. In korea mech will probably die out with the patch and we will be back to bio all day every day. So much diversity wow. Blinding cloud is way to strong vs mech. Have your tanks a little bit stacked one time and it's instantly gg. If david kim wants to see something else than bio in every game blinding cloud should be removed from the game immediately. It's the most retarded spell in the entire game. with one click it renders a 200 supply mech army useless and let's you instant win the game. and if it didn't work just throw a nydus in the opponents base and enjoy your freewin.
I assume you're just trolling?
I would assume so
On April 06 2015 04:05 Charoisaur wrote: contamination is so broken...
On April 14 2015 01:38 Charoisaur wrote: typical zerg whine. The foreign zergs just want their afk-hosts back so they can bore their opponents to death. When they are forced to adapt they just cry instead and ask for David kim to solve their issues. Mech just got a huge blow by the stupid pdd nerf and the retarded blinding cloud buff and the swarmhost didn't even get nerfed. the new swarmhost is probably even better than the old one because they force friendly fire from the tanks when they land in front of them. But the problem is that they aren't autocast anymore so the zergs can't go afk anymore and both players have to control their units. That is firecakes problem. he refuses to adapt and instead cries for david kim to help him. In korea mech will probably die out with the patch and we will be back to bio all day every day. So much diversity wow. Blinding cloud is way to strong vs mech. Have your tanks a little bit stacked one time and it's instantly gg. If david kim wants to see something else than bio in every game blinding cloud should be removed from the game immediately. It's the most retarded spell in the entire game. with one click it renders a 200 supply mech army useless and let's you instant win the game. and if it didn't work just throw a nydus in the opponents base and enjoy your freewin.
I think even though zerg might be too weak in the lategame, the last thing zerg needs is a grindy slow siege unit. We saw how that worked out in heart of the swarm. A harass-oriented swarm host is much more fun to have in the game, and this is arguably the most interesting role a "free unit generator" can have in sc2. Late game zerg can be addressed through balance changes or lategame buffs to units like vipers, ultras, lurkers and ravagers, which have strong anti-deathball potential.
This early in the beta the focus should definitely not be on balance. Blizzard will balance the game eventually but it remains to be seen whether the resulting game will be dynamic and fun or slow and repetitive.
I still don't understand why everyone on TL hates turtles. They are like the cutest non-mammals in existence. We used to have two and they were so much fun.
On April 14 2015 02:03 opisska wrote: I still don't understand why everyone on TL hates turtles. They are like the cutest non-mammals in existence. We used to have two and they were so much fun.
On April 14 2015 02:03 opisska wrote: I still don't understand why everyone on TL hates turtles. They are like the cutest non-mammals in existence. We used to have two and they were so much fun.
On April 14 2015 02:03 opisska wrote: I still don't understand why everyone on TL hates turtles. They are like the cutest non-mammals in existence. We used to have two and they were so much fun.
On April 14 2015 01:38 Charoisaur wrote: typical zerg whine. The foreign zergs just want their afk-hosts back so they can bore their opponents to death. When they are forced to adapt they just cry instead and ask for David kim to solve their issues. Mech just got a huge blow by the stupid pdd nerf and the retarded blinding cloud buff and the swarmhost didn't even get nerfed. the new swarmhost is probably even better than the old one because they force friendly fire from the tanks when they land in front of them. But the problem is that they aren't autocast anymore so the zergs can't go afk anymore and both players have to control their units. That is firecakes problem. he refuses to adapt and instead cries for david kim to help him. In korea mech will probably die out with the patch and we will be back to bio all day every day. So much diversity wow. Blinding cloud is way to strong vs mech. Have your tanks a little bit stacked one time and it's instantly gg. If david kim wants to see something else than bio in every game blinding cloud should be removed from the game immediately. It's the most retarded spell in the entire game. with one click it renders a 200 supply mech army useless and let's you instant win the game. and if it didn't work just throw a nydus in the opponents base and enjoy your freewin.
I assume you're just trolling?
nah, I'm just enraged that all zergs scream that they can't win anymore and the game is completely broken 3 days after a balance change without trying anything new. Maybe mech will dominate in the next few month but with the strengh of blinding cloud I heavily doubt it. Zerg has so many tools to fight mech; roach hydra viper, mass ultra, BL/infestor, mass mutalisk, nydus play. Hell the new swarmhost hasn't even been tried. I really think zergs just don't want to adapt, especially firecake who did nothing but turtling the entire game with swarmhosts before the nerf. the part where I said that mech is unplayable now was basically a parody of all the zergs saying they can't win anymore although I really think blinding cloud is to punishing vs mech. But obviously it can't be nerfed/removed because without it zerg could really not fight mech anymore.
I didn't expect this interview to be translate and put on TL.
Many people assume that players need time to adapt to the change. But in fact we already know this situation, at the beginning of HoTs nobody knew how to use the SH and nobody tries. It took months before zergs players started to use the SH and understand how to play the late game. Before that there were many triple SG builds where the protoss players was spamming voidrays. These builds are coming back because now that the game has been figured out (Yes, we are playing the same game for more than 2 years...) protoss and terrans players will always win after 20 min.
If you are terran or protoss you juste have to secure a third and start creating your deathball than slowly take a fourth base. Do not forget to put a lot of canons/turrets, its worth it because the zergs players will all in on 3/4 bases.
Yes we could win without directly using SH before the patch, but now the lack of SH allow terrans and protoss to stay defensive on 3-4 bases, this was not seen before the patch because it was not viable because of the SH. Because of the SH terrans and protoss had to be aggressive on 3/4 bases and thus the zerg could attack their armies on creep.
The most important thing to understand is that many players decisions revolved around the fear of the SH (if you camp i will make free units !).
I am really angry because i know David Kim doesn't care about this and will do nothing before LoTv. Let's imagine this patch turns into a very unfair game where zerg underperformed. It will take months before statistics show the imbalance, and then it will take months before viewers start to realize the situation, and then it will take months before David Kim might consider to maybe do something. But guess what, Lotv will be out soon so why should he tries something ?
On April 14 2015 02:15 Charoisaur wrote: I really think zergs just don't want to adapt, especially firecake who did nothing but turtling the entire game with swarmhosts before the nerf.
Wow you watched one of my game, i guess it was my game against Mana 2 years ago, and you assume i do this in every games. You are a clever man.
SH games were terrible to watch. Just horrible. I don't really care if it tunes the game somewhat out of balance because no one would look forward to seeing a SH vs turtle stall fest. I'm still impressed they actually took the reigns of the game and made a significant patch since we had to deal with 1.5 years of BL/Inf stupidity at the end of WoL's lifecycle.
On April 14 2015 01:38 Charoisaur wrote: typical zerg whine. The foreign zergs just want their afk-hosts back so they can bore their opponents to death. When they are forced to adapt they just cry instead and ask for David kim to solve their issues. Mech just got a huge blow by the stupid pdd nerf and the retarded blinding cloud buff and the swarmhost didn't even get nerfed. the new swarmhost is probably even better than the old one because they force friendly fire from the tanks when they land in front of them. But the problem is that they aren't autocast anymore so the zergs can't go afk anymore and both players have to control their units. That is firecakes problem. he refuses to adapt and instead cries for david kim to help him. In korea mech will probably die out with the patch and we will be back to bio all day every day. So much diversity wow. Blinding cloud is way to strong vs mech. Have your tanks a little bit stacked one time and it's instantly gg. If david kim wants to see something else than bio in every game blinding cloud should be removed from the game immediately. It's the most retarded spell in the entire game. with one click it renders a 200 supply mech army useless and let's you instant win the game. and if it didn't work just throw a nydus in the opponents base and enjoy your freewin.
I assume you're just trolling?
nah, I'm just enraged that all zergs scream that they can't win anymore and the game is completely broken 3 days after a balance change without trying anything new. Maybe mech will dominate in the next few month but with the strengh of blinding cloud I heavily doubt it. Zerg has so many tools to fight mech; roach hydra viper, mass ultra, BL/infestor, mass mutalisk, nydus play. I really think zergs just don't want to adapt, especially firecake who did nothing but turtling the entire game with swarmhosts before the nerf. the part where I said that mech is unplayable now was basically a parody of all the zergs saying they can't win anymore although I really think blinding cloud is to punishing vs mech. But obviously it can't be nerfed/removed because without it zerg could really not fight mech anymore.
those "tools" are mostly all-ins that can work, sure, but are not consistent and consistency is what we are looking for - SH's were a consistent late game unit and a balanced one at that. I don't think anyone actually liked the games that SH's and mech/Protoss could create (even though most of them ZvP's were fun to watch, there were some boring and stalemate ones), but at least it was balanced, which it isn't now - and people are "crying" to make Blizzard not do the same thing they did at the end of WoL and leave it imbalanced because the game's gonna end soon - we still have good half a year of HotS
On April 14 2015 02:15 Charoisaur wrote: I really think zergs just don't want to adapt, especially firecake who did nothing but turtling the entire game with swarmhosts before the nerf.
Wow you watched one of my game, i guess it was my game against Mana 2 years ago, and you assume i do this in every games. You are a clever man.
Hi FireCake, I see you have just 14 posts which means you probably aren't very active on TL - which is a shame in my opinion because you are one of the very top EU players. And I would presume that one of the reasons why pros like you aren't very active here are idiots like Charoisaur who just spew nonsense because they feel they are the most clever person on Earth.
I would like to suggest that you consider just ignoring these blatantly offensive comments. There are actually many people here who care deeply about the game and who understand it a lot (the second is not exactly my case, I admit) and the more pros come here, the better for the discussion. So just please don't get discouraged by the few vocal shitheads, most of us have true admiration for the determination and sacrifice it takes to become a pro player!
On April 14 2015 02:17 FireCake wrote: I am really angry because i know David Kim doesn't care about this and will do nothing before LoTv. Let's imagine this patch turns into a very unfair game where zerg underperformed. It will take months before statistics show the imbalance, and then it will take months before viewers start to realize the situation, and then it will take months before David Kim might consider to maybe do something. But guess what, Lotv will be out soon so why should he tries something ?
realizing all this. and also knowing things are going to remain this way with LotV regarding months of lag time between realization... common knowledge and eventually change by Blizz/D.Kim.... are you considering leaving pro SC2 ?
On April 14 2015 01:38 Charoisaur wrote: typical zerg whine. The foreign zergs just want their afk-hosts back so they can bore their opponents to death. When they are forced to adapt they just cry instead and ask for David kim to solve their issues. Mech just got a huge blow by the stupid pdd nerf and the retarded blinding cloud buff and the swarmhost didn't even get nerfed. the new swarmhost is probably even better than the old one because they force friendly fire from the tanks when they land in front of them. But the problem is that they aren't autocast anymore so the zergs can't go afk anymore and both players have to control their units. That is firecakes problem. he refuses to adapt and instead cries for david kim to help him. In korea mech will probably die out with the patch and we will be back to bio all day every day. So much diversity wow. Blinding cloud is way to strong vs mech. Have your tanks a little bit stacked one time and it's instantly gg. If david kim wants to see something else than bio in every game blinding cloud should be removed from the game immediately. It's the most retarded spell in the entire game. with one click it renders a 200 supply mech army useless and let's you instant win the game. and if it didn't work just throw a nydus in the opponents base and enjoy your freewin.
I assume you're just trolling?
nah, I'm just enraged that all zergs scream that they can't win anymore and the game is completely broken 3 days after a balance change without trying anything new. Maybe mech will dominate in the next few month but with the strengh of blinding cloud I heavily doubt it. Zerg has so many tools to fight mech; roach hydra viper, mass ultra, BL/infestor, mass mutalisk, nydus play. I really think zergs just don't want to adapt, especially firecake who did nothing but turtling the entire game with swarmhosts before the nerf. the part where I said that mech is unplayable now was basically a parody of all the zergs saying they can't win anymore although I really think blinding cloud is to punishing vs mech. But obviously it can't be nerfed/removed because without it zerg could really not fight mech anymore.
those "tools" are mostly all-ins that can work, sure, but are not consistent and consistency is what we are looking for - SH's were a consistent late game unit and a balanced one at that. I don't think anyone actually liked the games that SH's and mech/Protoss could create (even though most of them ZvP's were fun to watch, there were some boring and stalemate ones), but at least it was balanced, which it isn't now - and people are "crying" to make Blizzard not do the same thing they did at the end of WoL and leave it imbalanced because the game's gonna end soon - we still have good half a year of HotS
Huh, it's imbalanced now? please show me the statistics from the highest level of play that show mech is imba. Until mech dominates gsl and proleague I don't believe that.
On April 14 2015 02:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: realizing all this. and also knowing things are going to remain this way with LotV. are you considering leaving pro SC2 ?
I am not a pro, i am a full time engineer. To be honest i thought about becoming a full time pro player in 5 months. After losing Polt in WCS i was really motivated to become a lot better and get good results. But 3 days ago i got demolished by David Kim, in my eyes he ruined the game (again ?). I still can win games, everybody can steal games with stupid all ins, but at this moment the game is a big joke in my opinion. If i was not in the WCS system i would have leave the game for sure.
@opisska :
Thanks for the tip, there is also an other reason why i don't post here very often : my english :D
Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising.
On April 14 2015 02:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: realizing all this. and also knowing things are going to remain this way with LotV. are you considering leaving pro SC2 ?
I am not a pro, i am a full time engineer. To be honest i thought about becoming a full time pro player in 5 months. After losing Polt in WCS i was really motivated to become a lot better and get good results. But 3 days ago i got demolished by David Kim, in my eyes he ruined the game (again ?). I still can win games, everybody can steal games with stupid all ins, but at this moment the game is a big joke in my opinion. If i was not in the WCS system i would have leave the game for sure.
@opisska :
Thanks for the tip, there is also an other reason why i don't post here very often : my english :D
thanks for your detailed reply. your english is not perfect, but it is very easy to figure out what you mean. if someone gets angry with you about your english then they are being pedantic
its pretty impressive if u can work full time and compete in WCS.
also, even if some of your opinions are only partially correct, or "not Code S level meta" i'd rather hear them any way. when it comes to criticizing Blizzard and David Kim be really precise with exactly what they are doing wrong and try to avoid some kind of vast generalization such as "David Kim is very dumb" or "Blizzard sucks balls".
On April 14 2015 02:41 LuckyGnomTV wrote: Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising.
DK knows what he's doing. He has way more game knowledge than we all together. He would never go through with a balance patch if he thinks it will make the game imbalanced. He has made a nerf to SHs and compensated it with raven and tempest nerfs. If DK thinks this is enough to make sure the game is balanced he is probably right.
On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
so is cancer mech
It's not going to be cancer mech if the Z just dies. Then it will just be winning mech.
On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
so is cancer mech
Which got nerfed just as much as SH ...
Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration.
On April 14 2015 02:41 LuckyGnomTV wrote: Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising.
agreed. firecake should just accept he got outplayed. If he would practice in the time he cries maybe he would have found already a solution.
On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
so is cancer mech
Which got nerfed just as much as SH ...
Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration.
If you engage into unsieged tanks and the Ravens blow their PDD load then just walk away and come back later. It used to be you had to come back in two minutes. As a bio player in TvT nothing was more annoying than tank+raven meaning it is impossible to gain back the ground if you gave it up because the PDD lasted forever.
On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
so is cancer mech
Which got nerfed just as much as SH ...
Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration.
If you engage into unsieged tanks and the Ravens blow their PDD load then just walk away and come back later. It used to be you had to come back in two minutes. As a bio player in TvT nothing was more annoying than tank+raven meaning it is impossible to gain back the ground if you gave it up because the PDD lasted forever.
That nerf is still not nearly as hard hitting as the complete redesign of a unit that was a staple for late game ZvP and ZvMech. Imagine if the tank was redesigned into a harassment unit rather than what it currently is and made more expensive. Would mech players even build them? I doubt it, there's no incentive.
On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
so is cancer mech
Which got nerfed just as much as SH ...
Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration.
If you engage into unsieged tanks and the Ravens blow their PDD load then just walk away and come back later. It used to be you had to come back in two minutes. As a bio player in TvT nothing was more annoying than tank+raven meaning it is impossible to gain back the ground if you gave it up because the PDD lasted forever.
also it's a big nerf vs mass mutalisk because you can't periodically spread pdds around your turret rings anymore because they will just go away after 20 seconds
On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
so is cancer mech
Which got nerfed just as much as SH ...
Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration.
If you engage into unsieged tanks and the Ravens blow their PDD load then just walk away and come back later. It used to be you had to come back in two minutes. As a bio player in TvT nothing was more annoying than tank+raven meaning it is impossible to gain back the ground if you gave it up because the PDD lasted forever.
also it's a big nerf vs mass mutalisk because you can't periodically spread pdds around your turret rings anymore because they will just go away after 20 seconds
If you are playing vs mass mutalisk maybe you should add 1 thor to that ring and be fine? Saying that this is a big nerf vs mass mutalisk is the overstatement of the year, I don't know what terrans you think do that but people in EU GM doesnt do that.
On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote: keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
so is cancer mech
Which got nerfed just as much as SH ...
Swarmhosts basically got removed from the game, I don't think turtle mech got hit nearly as hard. In fact, in an actual engagement mech is the same as before, only in longer siege scenarios it got nerfed with the PDD duration.
If you engage into unsieged tanks and the Ravens blow their PDD load then just walk away and come back later. It used to be you had to come back in two minutes. As a bio player in TvT nothing was more annoying than tank+raven meaning it is impossible to gain back the ground if you gave it up because the PDD lasted forever.
also it's a big nerf vs mass mutalisk because you can't periodically spread pdds around your turret rings anymore because they will just go away after 20 seconds
If you are playing vs mass mutalisk maybe you should add 1 thor to that ring and be fine? Saying that this is a big nerf vs mass mutalisk is the overstatement of the year, I don't know what terrans you think do that but people in EU GM doesnt do that.
I'm not saying that mech can't deal anymore with mass mutas because it's definitely possible but it has gotten harder without a doubt. And thors can be magicboxed lol. 1 thor + turrets is often not enough if they have like 50 mutalisks you need at least 2-3 thors per base with insane amounts of turrets.
On April 14 2015 02:43 Charoisaur wrote: DK knows what he's doing. He has way more game knowledge than we all together. He would never go through with a balance patch if he thinks it will make the game imbalanced. He has made a nerf to SHs and compensated it with raven and tempest nerfs. If DK thinks this is enough to make sure the game is balanced he is probably right.
O_O You realize that this is actually a very bold claim, right? David Kim allowed, among various things, BL/Infestor to stay in the game up to the point of a GSL semifinalist (!) typing "IMBAIMBAIMBA" at the end of a game. He also allowed an atrocity like Daedalus 1.0 to not only get on ladder, but to be played in professional tournaments (!) among which GSL Code A (!) thus influencing the qualification for the hardest tournament in the world. He adressed SH stalemates in ZvZ months (!) after the strategy was developed, while he before that killed the skillful way of dealing with SH ZvZ. He nerfed the Widow Mine while players were adapting to it, only to break both Terran MUs. He made Oracles faster to separate more skilled players from less skilled ones. No really, I'm not sure if he knows what he's doing ; or at least I don't know if he is probably right.
On April 14 2015 02:41 LuckyGnomTV wrote: Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising.
This is so irrelevant. In WoL we had infestors, this was the counter to mech. Why ? because we could spam thousands of infested terrans, and they were doing damage. Now they are useless : infested terran dps is too low and they die way too fast against hellbats.
By the way, the pdd nerf doesn't matter in big fights because fights never laster more than 20 sec.
On April 14 2015 02:17 FireCake wrote: I didn't expect this interview to be translate and put on TL.
Many people assume that players need time to adapt to the change. But in fact we already know this situation, at the beginning of HoTs nobody knew how to use the SH and nobody tries. It took months before zergs players started to use the SH and understand how to play the late game. Before that there were many triple SG builds where the protoss players was spamming voidrays. These builds are coming back because now that the game has been figured out (Yes, we are playing the same game for more than 2 years...) protoss and terrans players will always win after 20 min.
If you are terran or protoss you juste have to secure a third and start creating your deathball than slowly take a fourth base. Do not forget to put a lot of canons/turrets, its worth it because the zergs players will all in on 3/4 bases.
Yes we could win without directly using SH before the patch, but now the lack of SH allow terrans and protoss to stay defensive on 3-4 bases, this was not seen before the patch because it was not viable because of the SH. Because of the SH terrans and protoss had to be aggressive on 3/4 bases and thus the zerg could attack their armies on creep.
The most important thing to understand is that many players decisions revolved around the fear of the SH (if you camp i will make free units !).
I am really angry because i know David Kim doesn't care about this and will do nothing before LoTv. Let's imagine this patch turns into a very unfair game where zerg underperformed. It will take months before statistics show the imbalance, and then it will take months before viewers start to realize the situation, and then it will take months before David Kim might consider to maybe do something. But guess what, Lotv will be out soon so why should he tries something ?
I find it is nice to see you post here. Even though I am not a big fan of you and your attitude that is not the point here, there is no denying that you are actually very good at this game and that your opinion, although biased, is valuable.
In the end I think David Kim already knows all what you said but they did not have a choice, 1 hour (and more) game were not acceptable for broadcast, tournament schedule have been fucked up by these games and they could not continue with it. So they had to make a choice, even though it is a bad one and that it will break the game balance and (which is the worst part) encourage boring play of terrans and protoss. In the end we will se, in some extent it can be balanced through maps, but meh, that's a bad way to balance a game.
In your opinion, what would have been the best way to change the SH so the game is :
- still balanced, and - makes long turtle-play non possible anymore?
On April 14 2015 02:41 LuckyGnomTV wrote: Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising.
This is so irrelevant. In WoL we had infestors, this was the counter to mech. Why ? because we could spam thousands of infested terrans, and they were doing damage. Now they are useless : infested terran dps is too low and they die way too fast against hellbats.
By the way, the pdd nerf doesn't matter in big fights because fights never laster more than 20 sec.
Good points there Firecake! Happy to see important players like you posting on the forums there ^^
I think, even if it sounds weird, that it is time to slightly rebuff Infestors and Broodlods. In the actual HotS, both Protoss and Terrans have got ways to counter both units better, and there is also the Fungal nerf.
So I'd make my bet on giving Broodlords some speed and decent acceleration/microability, rebuffing Infestor a bit and an obvious redesign to fit their intended harass role. I wrote it 4 pages ago, no brained Zerg would go SH harass over a flock of mutalisks considering the SH gas and supply cost. Both mutas and Locusts are countered by the same units, except that Locusts are also countered by Hellbats when they land and they move much slower.
Maybe we need the same approach of the Campaign Swarm Host, with their revamped mobility. More spameable locusts, weaker, air locusts being faster and living shorter.... The campaign unit doesn't feel bad at all.
In the end of the day, a "harass" unit is intended to wear off the oponent by doing continuous minor damage. A hybrid siege/harass like the intended SH should adjust to that philosophy, by having more mobile air locusts but demanding more proximity, and with less damage, instead of the expensive unit/terrible terrible damage/ big downtime design they have get.
Maybe we should have air locusts to attack directly from the air with less damage instead of being a BroodLord wannabe, considering that they hit at Hive + a long upgrade, so it's quite lategamy. Broodlords and SwarmHosts should feel very different.
I feel like turning the SH into a harass unit was the completely wrong move because they made them too expensive and they're also way too far up the tech tree to fill that role.
On April 14 2015 02:41 LuckyGnomTV wrote: Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising.
This is so irrelevant. In WoL we had infestors, this was the counter to mech. Why ? because we could spam thousands of infested terrans, and they were doing damage. Now they are useless : infested terran dps is too low and they die way too fast against hellbats.
By the way, the pdd nerf doesn't matter in big fights because fights never laster more than 20 sec.
Good points there Firecake! Happy to see important players like you posting on the forums there ^^
I think, even if it sounds weird, that it is time to slightly rebuff Infestors and Broodlods. In the actual HotS, both Protoss and Terrans have got ways to counter both units better, and there is also the Fungal nerf.
So I'd make my bet on giving Broodlords some speed and decent acceleration/microability, rebuffing Infestor a bit and an obvious redesign to fit their intended harass role. I wrote it 4 pages ago, no brained Zerg would go SH harass over a flock of mutalisks considering the SH gas and supply cost. Both mutas and Locusts are countered by the same units, except that Locusts are also countered by Hellbats when they land and they move much slower.
Maybe we need the same approach of the Campaign Swarm Host, with their revamped mobility. More spameable locusts, weaker, air locusts being faster and living shorter.... The campaign unit doesn't feel bad at all.
In the end of the day, a "harass" unit is intended to wear off the oponent by doing continuous minor damage. A hybrid siege/harass like the intended SH should adjust to that philosophy, by having more mobile air locusts but demanding more proximity, and with less damage, instead of the expensive unit/terrible terrible damage/ big downtime design they have get.
Maybe we should have air locusts to attack directly from the air with less damage instead of being a BroodLord wannabe, considering that they hit at Hive + a long upgrade, so it's quite lategamy. Broodlords and SwarmHosts should feel very different.
Time to mod out an Antipatch!.
I think it's time to buff siege tanks and ravens. give tanks their flat 50 damage vs everything back and make pdd also effect melee attacks so mech has a better answer to ultras. Tanks are countered so easily by ultras and ravens by infestors that they really need a bit more strength so mech is competitive again.
Charoisaur, I understand that you are struggling right now with the extensive abuse of the new Swarm Host, but could you please stop trolling every post with the same reply?
On April 14 2015 06:27 LastManProductions wrote: They only made the SH change because people complained. Now they nerf SH and people complain. Can't have it both ways.
The people =/= the people.
They should have kept the SH the same until LotV so they at least keep the game balanced.
On April 14 2015 06:09 Vanadiel wrote: In your opinion, what would have been the best way to change the SH so the game is :
- still balanced, and - makes long turtle-play non possible anymore?
Because within HOTS, I don't see how to do this.
The SH could be a support unit, i would like these changes : -Drastically reduce the DPS of locust -Remove the size of the locusts (every zerg units can walk through locusts) -Buff HP/life of the locust -Locust range reduce to 0
The idea is to use the locusts as a meat shield to protect more important units such as hydralisk which are very weak. With these changes zergs can no longer rely only on SH because of the very low DPS. And also, its a lot more interesting to attack.
On April 14 2015 02:41 LuckyGnomTV wrote: Blah blah blah. First of all FireCake lost to Happy not because of mech. Secondly we had WoL where zergs were able to win against mech without sh, nowdays you have vipers to help you and ravens were nerfed (not only pdd, but also how seeker shoots). Stop crying - start practising.
agreed. firecake should just accept he got outplayed. If he would practice in the time he cries maybe he would have found already a solution.
Happy played that whole series really bad. Mech, believe it or not, is here to stay vs Zerg. I honestly hope it dominates the meta now and that koreans learn how to properly do the turtle mech, just to show how incredibly strong it is to slowly take a 4th and enjoy your freewin now when swarmhosts cant compete against it.
On April 14 2015 06:09 Vanadiel wrote: In your opinion, what would have been the best way to change the SH so the game is :
- still balanced, and - makes long turtle-play non possible anymore?
Because within HOTS, I don't see how to do this.
The SH could be a support unit, i would like these changes : -Drastically reduce the DPS of locust -Remove the size of the locusts (every zerg units can walk through locusts) -Buff HP/life of the locust -Locust range reduce to 0
The idea is to use the locusts as a meat shield to protect more important units such as hydralisk which are very weak. With these changes zergs can no longer rely only on SH because of the very low DPS. And also, its a lot more interesting to attack.
I don't know if that would really work. Converting locusts to meatshield is not very useful against mech, since Hellbat's AoE would still wreck them very hard. With reduced damage, any good mecher would try to focus the DPS units (roaches and Hydras). And I don't know if they would be midgame/lategame useful against Protoss. Any lategame is very rich on AoE.
The problem againstTerran mech is that PDD stops a minimal projectile, something that it shouldn't really counter. So even when Locusts were arriving to the turtle mecher, they couldn't do damage. That interaction is worth a review, even if it feels balanced with the nerf on PDD. That ability made no sense by bein 180s by default.
The pathing problem is solved in 10s with decreased push priority to 9.
Zerg suffers a lot against well protected lines by Colossus/sentry and Tank/Hellbat. That's why I think that the flying locusts is possibly the only one of the things they nailed. Increased utility and mobility, and some guaranteed damage.
Flying locusts are good as antiturtles. In my vision I would like to see them with: - reduced DPS, reduced lifetime, reduced ability CD - increased speed, given antiground weapon, keep the "land" ability.
Maybe if we get rid of the PDD interaction (makes sense, roach missile isn't affected either) and we revert the cost changes, but keeping in mind the mobility thing and the removal of extended locusts and the downtime?
LOL multiplayer dependency is not even updated.
@Firecake, what do you think about the campaign SwarmHost?
On April 14 2015 06:27 LastManProductions wrote: They only made the SH change because people complained. Now they nerf SH and people complain. Can't have it both ways.
The people =/= the people.
They should have kept the SH the same until LotV so they at least keep the game balanced.
I support Blizzard with this decision. The way Zerg lategame played out lately is just bad. 4 hour games, boring waves of locust crushing into tanks/raven or colossus/tempest. Blizzard had to change something. And the fact, that there are still Zerg playing for tournament wins shows is isnt that bad. Even the current GSL champ is Zerg, WCS runner-up is zerg. There must be something that makes them win without swarmhosts. Zerg even got the TL-award for manliest race for not bitching about balance 2014 and they are about to not make it again in 2015.
On April 16 2015 01:30 I1ussion wrote: I support Blizzard with this decision. The way Zerg lategame played out lately is just bad. 4 hour games, boring waves of locust crushing into tanks/raven or colossus/tempest. Blizzard had to change something. And the fact, that there are still Zerg playing for tournament wins shows is isnt that bad. Even the current GSL champ is Zerg, WCS runner-up is zerg. There must be something that makes them win without swarmhosts. Zerg even got the TL-award for manliest race for not bitching about balance 2014 and they are about to not make it again in 2015.
Actually, Life uses swarmhosts vs mech. He doesn't go the same long game viper abduct style as foreigner style but rather as an ablative meat shield to use infestor energy and ultras behind, but he totally uses swarmhosts.
On April 16 2015 01:30 I1ussion wrote: I support Blizzard with this decision. The way Zerg lategame played out lately is just bad. 4 hour games, boring waves of locust crushing into tanks/raven or colossus/tempest. Blizzard had to change something. And the fact, that there are still Zerg playing for tournament wins shows is isnt that bad. Even the current GSL champ is Zerg, WCS runner-up is zerg. There must be something that makes them win without swarmhosts. Zerg even got the TL-award for manliest race for not bitching about balance 2014 and they are about to not make it again in 2015.
Actually, Life uses swarmhosts vs mech. He doesn't go the same long game viper abduct style as foreigner style but rather as an ablative meat shield to use infestor energy and ultras behind, but he totally uses swarmhosts.
And that's the problem. The viper abduct style is just ridiculously boring to watch, because it takes so long. Maybe Zerg will have problems now and that should be fixed, but there has to be something else than swarmhosts to stop makeing these games where both turtle up happen. I dont know what Blizzard should do, but they had to do something and this is a good start.
After playing close to 50 games after the patch, I definitely think zerg is still in a decent spot versus protoss in early, mid and up to the early lategame. I think it is worthy to play a few more games before deciding the state of PVZ. Currently, as I have always though, zerg is able to play against protoss largely without swarmhost, the swarmhost just bandaided them if various allins on 3 base failed and obviously gave them advantages on some maps. Enough to make me think the swarmhost was slightly overpowered. Koreans of course has been able to play against protoss with only minor swarmhost influence all of HotS, but there are several points in every game of PVZ that swarmhosts are necessary - The very late game and versus templars.
However, zerg has a lot of tools - superior economy - faster maxing - faster teching - tools that which allow zerg to play like they do.
If anything, Protoss allins should be nerfed rather than buffing zerg lategame. I do not see how you can keep a race like zerg with these mechanical advantages in terms of production, teching, mobility and map control with the same turtle strength as protoss balanced. I would much rather see protoss favored in the lategame, but weaker with allins, cheese and gimmicky hidden-tech play. In fact, I would like to see this reduced across all matchups.
TVZ, however, looks to be more and more terran favored in my all honesty. The solution here is more unclear to me, but I think hellbat buffs and likewise timings seem to be too strong, and mech in general seem to be hard for zerg to bust since mech units are stronger than protoss units versus zerg, since most of the units have splash and lategame value. I think it´s necessary to look even more on the raven, perhaps, since the raven is basically the ultimate unit of starcraft 2. Essentially, Hydras should not be affected by point defence drones in my opinion, and instead of buffing the swarmhost to bypass thor splash or something similar like adding tanking, I would much rather see the unit used as an harass unit instead of thinking that the entire zerg race is about the swarmhost.
If changes should be made to the swarmhost, it should be to fix the drone/roach concept in ZvZ. Unless changes to swarmhost can fix that problem, then I disagree that the problem currently lies with the exiting swarmhosts role. Sure, I would agree slight buffs such as 3 supply instead of 4 is reasonable, and a slight resource cost, but beyond that I think it is a mistake to think zerg needs a per se lategame viable composition with the current macro mechanics the race has. A last option is to give corrupters a slight buff to massive damage but that will not fix anything in ZVT, assuming there are problems in that matchup.
On April 16 2015 01:30 I1ussion wrote: I support Blizzard with this decision. The way Zerg lategame played out lately is just bad. 4 hour games, boring waves of locust crushing into tanks/raven or colossus/tempest. Blizzard had to change something. And the fact, that there are still Zerg playing for tournament wins shows is isnt that bad. Even the current GSL champ is Zerg, WCS runner-up is zerg. There must be something that makes them win without swarmhosts. Zerg even got the TL-award for manliest race for not bitching about balance 2014 and they are about to not make it again in 2015.
Actually, Life uses swarmhosts vs mech. He doesn't go the same long game viper abduct style as foreigner style but rather as an ablative meat shield to use infestor energy and ultras behind, but he totally uses swarmhosts.
And that's the problem. The viper abduct style is just ridiculously boring to watch, because it takes so long. Maybe Zerg will have problems now and that should be fixed, but there has to be something else than swarmhosts to stop makeing these games where both turtle up happen. I dont know what Blizzard should do, but they had to do something and this is a good start.
Wha's the problem? You said that Life wins without using swarmhosts. The fact is, he does use swarmhosts vs mech.
On April 17 2015 02:19 sparklyresidue wrote: 3 base overlord drop roach allin??? with support nydus!!? sign me up! T_T
would be awesome if ovidrop would be buffed to compensate (not only for all ins but especially to harrass and spread out mech units more) and help the bad harrass capabilities Z has overall.
oh and who doesnt want to see dimaga going for banedrops ZvP again?! best style ever :D
I may be of a minority opinion but I feel like game entertainment should be #1 importance. Even over balance. I'd prefer ZvP to be 45/55 if that means the games are fun to watch and fun to play. Swarm Host games were neither. Brood War was never a 50/50/50 game but that was part of it's charm.
On April 17 2015 03:25 shid0x wrote: Wait you mean french players can speak english ? I call this article rigged !
Interview conducted by Balrog from Team aAa. Thanks to Padre for the translation. Follow and find out more about FireCake on his Twitter on or his team's Twitter.
On April 17 2015 03:13 Tenks wrote: I may be of a minority opinion but I feel like game entertainment should be #1 importance. Even over balance. I'd prefer ZvP to be 45/55 if that means the games are fun to watch and fun to play. Swarm Host games were neither. Brood War was never a 50/50/50 game but that was part of it's charm.
I'm with you. Unfortunately, most of these people are against us. They remind me of political partisans who want their "balance" even if the game burns in their wake.
On April 17 2015 03:13 Tenks wrote: I may be of a minority opinion but I feel like game entertainment should be #1 importance. Even over balance. I'd prefer ZvP to be 45/55 if that means the games are fun to watch and fun to play. Swarm Host games were neither. Brood War was never a 50/50/50 game but that was part of it's charm.
I'm with you. Unfortunately, most of these people are against us. They remind me of political partisans who want their "balance" even if the game burns in their wake.
I see no fun watching a game where you now that one player is probably gonna win because of his race. Then it´s no longer e-sports.
On April 17 2015 03:13 Tenks wrote: I may be of a minority opinion but I feel like game entertainment should be #1 importance. Even over balance. I'd prefer ZvP to be 45/55 if that means the games are fun to watch and fun to play. Swarm Host games were neither. Brood War was never a 50/50/50 game but that was part of it's charm.
I'm with you. Unfortunately, most of these people are against us. They remind me of political partisans who want their "balance" even if the game burns in their wake.
I see no fun watching a game where you now that one player is probably gonna win because of his race. Then it´s no longer e-sports.
You must have instantly turned off many PvT's in BW on certain maps then
On April 17 2015 03:13 Tenks wrote: I may be of a minority opinion but I feel like game entertainment should be #1 importance. Even over balance. I'd prefer ZvP to be 45/55 if that means the games are fun to watch and fun to play. Swarm Host games were neither. Brood War was never a 50/50/50 game but that was part of it's charm.
I'm with you. Unfortunately, most of these people are against us. They remind me of political partisans who want their "balance" even if the game burns in their wake.
I share this opinion as well. If the game isn't fun, I don't have a reason to care about it anyway.
An interesting patch would be if Ultralisks had their Ram-Attack against buildings restored in a stronger way. For anyone who doesn't remember, until WoL patch 1.1 Ultralisks had a special attack that they used against buildings. But it was removed with the reasoning that it was too similar to the Ultralisk's normal attack that had been given extra damage was armored - hence buldings - in the WoL beta patch 13.
Now say that this attack got restored with a higher value, like say 60to80dps* (as comparison, the normal ultralisk attack has 40dps), this could help a lot with breaking obnoxious building walls of Orbital Commands, Planetaries, turrets, Gateways, Pylons, canons and what not (avilo uses barracks, personally I also like ebays in emergency situations because the build so fast). Because these sorts of walls are one of the main reasons why ultras become useless after a certain period of time in the endgame. Not sure what implications this would have for ultralisk timings though.
*I'm giving the dps value because I think that this attack used a different attack cooldown that I don't know
On April 17 2015 03:13 Tenks wrote: I may be of a minority opinion but I feel like game entertainment should be #1 importance. Even over balance. I'd prefer ZvP to be 45/55 if that means the games are fun to watch and fun to play. Swarm Host games were neither. Brood War was never a 50/50/50 game but that was part of it's charm.
I'm with you. Unfortunately, most of these people are against us. They remind me of political partisans who want their "balance" even if the game burns in their wake.
I see no fun watching a game where you now that one player is probably gonna win because of his race. Then it´s no longer e-sports.
You must have instantly turned off many PvT's in BW on certain maps then
Name these so called maps where Protoss was statistically favored vs Terran please sir.
On April 17 2015 03:13 Tenks wrote: I may be of a minority opinion but I feel like game entertainment should be #1 importance. Even over balance. I'd prefer ZvP to be 45/55 if that means the games are fun to watch and fun to play. Swarm Host games were neither. Brood War was never a 50/50/50 game but that was part of it's charm.
I'm with you. Unfortunately, most of these people are against us. They remind me of political partisans who want their "balance" even if the game burns in their wake.
I see no fun watching a game where you now that one player is probably gonna win because of his race. Then it´s no longer e-sports.
You must have instantly turned off many PvT's in BW on certain maps then
Name these so called maps where Protoss was statistically favored vs Terran please sir.
Match Point is Protoss favored. Monty Hall. Destination. All those according to TLPD are ~55% Protoss favored.
On April 17 2015 03:13 Tenks wrote: I may be of a minority opinion but I feel like game entertainment should be #1 importance. Even over balance. I'd prefer ZvP to be 45/55 if that means the games are fun to watch and fun to play. Swarm Host games were neither. Brood War was never a 50/50/50 game but that was part of it's charm.
I'm with you. Unfortunately, most of these people are against us. They remind me of political partisans who want their "balance" even if the game burns in their wake.
What the fuck do you think EVERYONE else here wants? Do you think they want a high res version of TICK TACK TOE? People who complain at lenght and examine at detail the mechanics and balance of this game do so because they love it. They want the game to be more fun, obviously. Nobody here wants to play a boring game that's fair, all of us have played that game. The reason people are arguing in this thread back and forth and throwing their biased shit around is because they disagree on what will make the game more fun. Some people seem to think removing swarm hosts(this unit does not exist as what it once was) will make the game more fun. Other people think that toss and terran can turtle into unbeatable armies. What this "Balance Patch" will do is certainly break the game, at least for a while one way or another nobody knows what zerg should aim for now. Balance will be reached eventually through adaption. Adaption from the player's strategies or adaption from the map makers(oh wait no that won't happen, proof Secret spring and Daedlus point). This Patch had nothing to do with fucking balance. People whined about long boring games so blizz removed the swarm host without bothering to do that experimenting and tweaking they are oh so fond of. Some people actually enjoyed good Swarm host games (yes those exist), I was one of them. The majority of people hated the long boring so blizzard decided to fix them (totally on time too ) That's fine. But that's not, fine because that's not what happened. People whined about SH so blizz removed it.
Why swarm hosts though? If you are playing late game pvz and have your le epic tempest mother ship collosi templar void ray testicle do you fear locusts? Do you spend all your energy on Storm to kill them quicker cause they are too hard to kill with collosi? Or do you save your energy to feedback vipers? Are you afraid that Locust will snipe your Mothership?
If you are playing Late game MECHvZ do you try to protect your flying ball of cancer(I don't like ravens, sue me) from Locusts or abducts?
When you play Swarm host vs late game Mech/P do you spend all your apm on rallying locusts, eating pizza and watching Game of thrones or do you micro your viper corruptor cancer cloud and abduct'n'snipe shit?
At the start of Hots Mass skill rays charge lots storm was extremely hard to beat for zerg, because Swarm hosts were considered bad, and zerg had no composition that beat it effectively. One of the options were to go for mass mutas and basetrade or some timing into mass mutas or a bunch of attacks into mass mutas. The reason that was sub optimal on it's own was cause of Phoenix range buff to compensate for muta speed/regen and more importantly Protoss already having stargates out to make phoenixes since he opened with them.
Consider how mutas worked out vs robo openers (Ones that aren't immortal all ins) Mutas fly in kill of some shit army comes to defend mutas run off and attack elsewhere, repeat till protoss goes on thread to whine about how mutas are gay while zerg mass expands (which is why robo openers aren't really a thing)
Swarm hosts did the same thing vs stargate openers, they forced the toss army to stay at home because moving out will mean "free" damage for zerg while they were not losing out on defense since hosts dont' shoot up in the first place, this allowed zerg to mass expand and overwhelm protoss.
Swarm hosts are mutas worked in a similair manner. Do you know what works differently from Swarm hosts and mutas? Vipers. Vipers do two things they are either used in a timing to abduct things or they are used in a SH/Static D/VIPERS!!! composition to abduct things. So why not change the vipers? Tweak the range on abduct for example to 8 that won't ruin R/H/V timings for example since they somewhat rely on toss not having templars to begin with and it's not like you can snipe them much more easily since in Viper timings you usually find giant roach hydra testicles underneath the vipers.
What it will do is make it much more difficult to abduct shit without getting feedback, and make it so a well controled oracle could cast revalation on the vipers without being abducted.
Would that make it possible to play turtle viper sh? In any case it would remove or make it very rare in tournament play since it's winrate would be much lower.
Naturaly ravens would also need a tweak since other wise playing zerg would be stupidly unfair vs mech.* The raven is no different from the viper, it's an energy based unit that with support makes a composition that's impossible to engage into, you can't be fine with one but condemn the other that's just hypocrisy.
Would slight changes to the viper fix late game issues and leave the game in a balanced state? Would they make for better games? I don't know. What I think they would do is fix a specific issue of SH/Viper/Static D comps without seriously affecting any other point of the game since vipers could still be used in timings vs protoss and agressive SH plays won't be removed from the game (the siege attacks with SH hydra for example, I think they are closer to what blizz had in mind for SH ). It makes me sad that blizzard always go for such a direct approach. I want to say much more but it will be just ranting.
On April 17 2015 03:13 Tenks wrote: I may be of a minority opinion but I feel like game entertainment should be #1 importance. Even over balance. I'd prefer ZvP to be 45/55 if that means the games are fun to watch and fun to play. Swarm Host games were neither. Brood War was never a 50/50/50 game but that was part of it's charm.
I'm with you. Unfortunately, most of these people are against us. They remind me of political partisans who want their "balance" even if the game burns in their wake.
Most zerg would actually agree with that. That's why they (we) don't want to see/play ZvMech. I would rather have a metagames where bio is overpowered and every terran play bio than one where ZvMech is balanced and every terran plays like this.
SH, as boring as they were both to watch and to play, were preventing a lot of terran to play mech which was a good thing as it is, in my opinion, a very boring playstyle.
On April 13 2015 09:29 ZAiNs wrote: So this patch has been floating around for months and barely anyone played/said anything. And now that it's out, Zerg is 'obviously' totally screwed until LotV? How about we hear the opinions of someone who actually played the test map a decent amount (like Snute) and isn't a BM prick?
goswser after testing them: "I don't know what I should use them for" MorroW on LotV stream: "they are pretty useless" avilo on LotV stream: "thank you david kim. you have basically removed the swarm host" according to reddit Nathanias and Demuslim both said they have no clue what zerg should do against lategame Mech now. Ret: "Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings."
the only player in that list that's good doesn't even play zerg so not sure what this post is suppose to be worth.
On April 13 2015 09:29 ZAiNs wrote: So this patch has been floating around for months and barely anyone played/said anything. And now that it's out, Zerg is 'obviously' totally screwed until LotV? How about we hear the opinions of someone who actually played the test map a decent amount (like Snute) and isn't a BM prick?
goswser after testing them: "I don't know what I should use them for" MorroW on LotV stream: "they are pretty useless" avilo on LotV stream: "thank you david kim. you have basically removed the swarm host" according to reddit Nathanias and Demuslim both said they have no clue what zerg should do against lategame Mech now. Ret: "Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings."
the only player in that list that's good doesn't even play zerg so not sure what this post is suppose to be worth.
On April 13 2015 09:29 ZAiNs wrote: So this patch has been floating around for months and barely anyone played/said anything. And now that it's out, Zerg is 'obviously' totally screwed until LotV? How about we hear the opinions of someone who actually played the test map a decent amount (like Snute) and isn't a BM prick?
goswser after testing them: "I don't know what I should use them for" MorroW on LotV stream: "they are pretty useless" avilo on LotV stream: "thank you david kim. you have basically removed the swarm host" according to reddit Nathanias and Demuslim both said they have no clue what zerg should do against lategame Mech now. Ret: "Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings."
the only player in that list that's good doesn't even play zerg so not sure what this post is suppose to be worth.
you're a piece of shit in comparison to all of them so your evaluation of their skill and success is as worthless as their evalution of the swarm host, if we use your metric of "only Maru and Life are allowed to comment on anything in the game" Hence by your theory, you cannot judge whether it is a useful or useless opinion they give.
On April 13 2015 09:29 ZAiNs wrote: So this patch has been floating around for months and barely anyone played/said anything. And now that it's out, Zerg is 'obviously' totally screwed until LotV? How about we hear the opinions of someone who actually played the test map a decent amount (like Snute) and isn't a BM prick?
goswser after testing them: "I don't know what I should use them for" MorroW on LotV stream: "they are pretty useless" avilo on LotV stream: "thank you david kim. you have basically removed the swarm host" according to reddit Nathanias and Demuslim both said they have no clue what zerg should do against lategame Mech now. Ret: "Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings."
the only player in that list that's good doesn't even play zerg so not sure what this post is suppose to be worth.
you're a piece of shit in comparison to all of them so your evaluation of their skill and success is as worthless as their evalution of the swarm host, if we use your metric of "only Maru and Life are allowed to comment on anything in the game" Hence by your theory, you cannot judge whether it is a useful or useless opinion they give.
User was warned for this post
Sorry given the stated theory that zvmech is unwinnable. I think Expecting a quote from a player above d team foriegner is needed. No need for life or hell even a korean or a team foriegner atleast get a b team foriegner on quotes as agreeing. Sent by phone sorry for typos
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.team-aaa.com/photos/news/SC2/Articles/France/firecake.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.team-aaa.com/photos/news/SC2/Articles/France/compo.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.team-aaa.com/photos/news/SC2/Articles/France/firecakepoit.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/g8SL9Um.jpg)
bio they might be more cost effective. (Maybe not THE answer, but at least a step in the right direction)
really have no way to get vision past their creep/army?) 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ml2wagc.png)
![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TZGCH9lB5es/Tft_L7Ul4NI/AAAAAAAACA4/LPYCOP5vfKk/s1600/Turtle%252BWallpaper%252BTurtle%252BEating%252BStrawberry.png)
![[image loading]](http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140812050618/pokemon/images/2/2e/009Blastoise_Dream.png)
