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France8 Posts
Hi everyone, here is Team aAa back with some more SC2 news. As the winner of Gamers Assembly 2015, along with a top 12 finish in WCS Premier League Season 1, the Zerg FireCake is unarguably the French player with the best results in recent history. Since many players have been left to wonder how they can possibly beat mech-based Terran armies, or even late game Protoss deathballs, we went to FireCake to hear what he had to say on the matter.
![[image loading]](http://www.team-aaa.com/photos/news/SC2/Articles/France/firecake.png) FireCake, a zerg champion
Team-aAa.com : Hi FireCake, and congratulations on your excellent performance in WCS, Fragbite, and Gamers Assembly ! We saw you have a lot of difficulty against Happy’s mech play in the Fragbite Masters Season 4 Semifinals, and you had even tried some different strategies. Do you think there is currently a viable way to defeat mech or is some kind of patch to the game required yet again ?
FireCake : Even before the change to the swarmhost, mech could already be unkillable in the hyper-late game. It was very difficult, since we had to hunt down this air based composition of ravens, battlecruisers, and vikings. Why an air army ? To totally avoid the menace of the locusts. Now, with the change to the swarmhost, the Terran no longer has a need to make an air army. Thors and ravens alone suffice to completely destroy the Zerg. This army composition, in contrast to skyterran, is very easy to obtain and is devastatingly strong. We had a good look at it yesterday: I can attack the army on creep with a good concave, with ultralisks, hydralisks, blinding cloud, it just isn’t enough. After my second loss vs Happy, I asked for a pause to ask around for some help. The response from Ret was to “just forfeit or nydus allin.” At this point in time, only David Kim can truly beat Terran mech.
What do you think about the buff to the viper to possibly compensate for the swarmhost nerf ? Does it seem usable to you ?
The buff has zero interest to me, already because the grab is important, but especially since the blinding cloud must be casted before attacking with our main army to even be effective. The problem is that it implies that you have to send the vipers in before the rest of your army to throw down blinding clouds, and then attack with your army. Except that the vipers have such small vision as it is, that increasing the range of the spell will actually do nothing in practicality.
![[image loading]](http://www.team-aaa.com/photos/news/SC2/Articles/France/compo.png) The invincible army
What is your feeling about Protoss ? Are you having the same difficulties in the late game ?
It’s the same exact problem. For two years, even since the beginning of HotS, Zergs haven’t really had a real solution to fight against void ray-based compositions. We adapted by using swarmhost-based armies just to be able to win. Now that it’s been nerfed, we return to the exact same spot we were in two years ago, fighting the same problems. Yesterday, Lilbow and Ptitdrogo told me they’re not entirely sure how Zergs are supposed to beat Protoss now. When a Protoss says that the day after a patch, there’s something very wrong.
What do you think of the new swarmhost, will it be able to find its own place in the metagame with time ?
No, it will have absolutely no use. I explained that to David Kim directly but he insists on making a harass unit, which is not what the Zerg race needs at all. We need an army that can actually do something against that of our Protoss and Terran adversaries. We had almost a “cheating” army, since in lieu of a “real” army, we had one with free units that would progressively chip away at the opposing one. Now we actually have to gradually chip away with units that cost real resources, except that the Zerg runs out of money before we can take down the opposing army.
If you could change something about the balance of the game, what would you do ?
There’s so many things, so it’s difficult to respond with one thing in particular since they’re all interconnected. I would just like for Zerg to be able to win in the late game (that’s saying something besides a three or four-base all-in). Just that, at the least, to be able to macro…
![[image loading]](http://www.team-aaa.com/photos/news/SC2/Articles/France/firecakepoit.bmp) FireCake fighting MaNa at Gamers Assembly 2015
[...]
Find out the complete interview on Team-aAa.com.
Interview conducted by Balrog from Team aAa. Thanks to Padre for the translation. Follow and find out more about FireCake on his Twitter on or his team's Twitter.
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Zerg is so fucked against mech and late game ZvP....
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keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
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Theres one "to be able" too much in the last paragraph;)
With regard to the content I absolutely have the same opinion, I hope to get access to the Beta soon because I am not willing to play HotS at its current stage.. Luckily LotV is going to weaken the death ball principle and make the game more like bw, +1 for that.
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France8 Posts
On April 13 2015 08:53 NiDoXiD wrote:
Theres one "to be able" too much in the last paragraph;)
Indeed, thanks ! Its fixed. 
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Zergs are fucked until the next patch. Someone like Hydra said on Twitter that for the moment is probably better to switch directly to LotV since now ^^
Ah and the buff to the Viper is very funny... increase the range but hey, do you know that Zerg doesn't have way to expand the vision like scans or observers? eheheheh
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On April 13 2015 08:57 SuperHofmann wrote:
Zergs are fucked until the next patch. Someone like Hydra said on Twitter that for the moment is probably better to switch directly to LotV since now ^^
Ah and the buff to the Viper is very funny... increase the range but hey, do you know that Zerg doesn't have way to expand the vision like scans or observers? eheheheh
maybe start using ovie speed?
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he's quite right unfortunately...
i think maps are also quite good for mech these days too, with very little army movement needed to secure 3 or 4 bases.
Maybe introduce some new maps to try to fix the issue like blizz did with blink allins?
I didnt see the games but i think ultra based armies are very good against mech because ultras are the unit most immune to ravens. Ideally, you fight once with ultras, get smashed and kill some of the terran stuff, then remax and destroy it. But doing this with an equal economy is the problem. Maybe zerg needs to get to a lower drone count to get more army supply against mech because taking fights with 30/40 supply less and expecting to win them is quite silly...
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The problem with protoss is their AOE unit that kill everything and also requiert absolutely no skill to be used; A terran with bio forces need 3x more skill to defeat a toss who has Colossus, ht etc and for a zerg its the same but the biggest problem of zerg is forcefields. that allow toss to take favorables fight while their army is already stronger without it. that absolutely make no sense . toss is a joke since WoL and broodlord infestors was not imbalanced at all just toss dont know that rhy would have to allin before it come or use skyair to defeat it easily gg blizz
User was warned for this post
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I think the new swarmhosts will find their niche on certain maps, and it allows a layout like daybreak to be viable again. It is definitely objectively healthy for the game.
Something like giving hydra range upgrade an additional +1 to range vs air strikes me as a start.
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Also zergs and terran has to scout all the time what dirtty things a toss can do, if you miss a proxy pylon has zerg on the map you just can have a freelose and in terran if you pmiss a hidden buidling of the map too proxy sg, robo and blink/dt. When toss can just stay safe with 0 map vision with 1 sentry and 1 mothership core that defend everysingle allin.
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I called it the day they announced what they were changing about the swarmhost. The change they implemented makes getting swarmhosts nothing more than luxury units. The increased cooldown in combination with the supply/gas nerf just doesn't make these worth making. I've even tried in a couple games just making 4-5 swarm hosts and using them strictly for harassing bases/expansions. The results for the cost are extremely underwhelming. I'm honestly okay with nerfing the supply/gas, but the cooldown is atrociously long.
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This is what I wrote when they announced they had decided to go live with the patch after the end of the WCS season.
On March 24 2015 08:38 sitromit wrote:
From the language they use it's pretty obvious that they think/know this patch will break the game.
It's no surprise to them that Zerg has been fucked with this patch, they knew it was going to happen.
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The point that without SH Zergs can't really trade in late game. The only way is to try an all in with Hydra/Roach/Viper or hoping in a opponent that didn't scout the great spire.
Swarm Host are not funnt to be played (old SH), but it was the only way to not trade 1:10 with the opponent.
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So this patch has been floating around for months and barely anyone played/said anything. And now that it's out, Zerg is 'obviously' totally screwed until LotV? How about we hear the opinions of someone who actually played the test map a decent amount (like Snute) and isn't a BM prick?
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Wait... someone asked FIRECAKE for his opinion on a patch removing swarm hosts?
I guess if photon cannons are ever removed from the game we should ask Has for his objective opinion.
P.S. VERY happy to hear David Kim is not listening to FireCake's attempt to "directly" suggest what SC2 should be like.
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United States10196 Posts
On April 13 2015 08:49 Cricketer12 wrote:
keeping old swarm hosts is not the answer, buff everything else in the world, but swarm hosts are infuriatingly boring
swarm hosts were the answer though. they were able to stand up to protoss death balls and terran mech. please tell me what a zerg player is supposed to do in the late game to beat terrans and protosses. our only ways to win is to do dumb allins in the mid game.
i just wish dark swarm was back.
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On April 13 2015 09:29 ZAiNs wrote:
So this patch has been floating around for months and barely anyone played/said anything. And now that it's out, Zerg is 'obviously' totally screwed until LotV? How about we hear the opinions of someone who actually played the test map a decent amount (like Snute) and isn't a BM prick?
goswser after testing them: "I don't know what I should use them for"
MorroW on LotV stream: "they are pretty useless"
avilo on LotV stream: "thank you david kim. you have basically removed the swarm host"
according to reddit Nathanias and Demuslim both said they have no clue what zerg should do against lategame Mech now.
Ret: "Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings."
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I'm so confused, I thought this was a buff to the SwarmHost.... >_<
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On April 13 2015 09:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 09:29 ZAiNs wrote:
So this patch has been floating around for months and barely anyone played/said anything. And now that it's out, Zerg is 'obviously' totally screwed until LotV? How about we hear the opinions of someone who actually played the test map a decent amount (like Snute) and isn't a BM prick? goswser after testing them: "I don't know what I should use them for" MorroW on LotV stream: "they are pretty useless" avilo on LotV stream: "thank you david kim. you have basically removed the swarm host" according to reddit Nathanias and Demuslim both said they have no clue what zerg should do against lategame Mech now. Ret: "Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings."
And where were they the last few months? I can't be bothered to find it but I'm pretty sure avilo made a post here about how stupid Blizzard was for buffing Zerg and nerfing Terran lol.
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EPT
