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On April 13 2015 09:17 sagefreke wrote:
I called it the day they announced what they were changing about the swarmhost. The change they implemented makes getting swarmhosts nothing more than luxury units. The increased cooldown in combination with the supply/gas nerf just doesn't make these worth making. I've even tried in a couple games just making 4-5 swarm hosts and using them strictly for harassing bases/expansions. The results for the cost are extremely underwhelming. I'm honestly okay with nerfing the supply/gas, but the cooldown is atrociously long.
I think this is widely acknowledged among viewers, but largely ignored by players on the balance test map, but SHs are so different from their prepatch role that they should not be built in any of the same situations. Saying the new Swarm Hosts suck is so irrelevant and pointless and somewhat distracting from the real issue. It's apples to oranges. The only role they can actually fulfill against a mech army is a sort of position breaker, so that you take out a few tanks and force the rest to unsiege. I'm not convinced they're useful against Protoss armies at all in any reasonable HotS game, although I've seen them in LotV to set up a quick wall of locusts against Disruptors to make them waste their purification novae on temporary units. Pretty cool trick, actually. I'd love to see the radius and HP of Locusts played around with a little bit, and maybe a slight reduction on the vespene gas of the SH itself.
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On April 13 2015 08:38 Team aAa wrote:
If you could change something about the balance of the game, what would you do ?
There’s so many things, so it’s difficult to respond with one thing in particular since they’re all interconnected. I would just like for Zerg to be able to win in the late game (that’s saying something besides a three or four-base all-in). Just that, at the least, to be able to macro…
isn't that CALLED a macro game? honestly if we're listening to this guy try to bore his way back into WCS via Snore Host stupidities, the SC2 really is in a sorry state
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This is not hard: if it turns out that Zerg is too weak without the old swarm hosts, some other unit will get buffed to compensate. The bottom line is that the game is way way way better off without the old swarm hosts and getting them out of the game is easily worth some rebalancing that might have to be done.
And I call BS right now on the "Zerg can't win in the late game without swarm hosts." I've seen plenty of Koreans beat top end T and P in late game without swarm hosts even before this patch. Just off the top of my head:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On April 13 2015 09:51 Yakikorosu wrote:This is not hard: if it turns out that Zerg is too weak without the old swarm hosts, some other unit will get buffed to compensate. The bottom line is that the game is way way way better off without the old swarm hosts and getting them out of the game is easily worth some rebalancing that might have to be done. And I call BS right now on the "Zerg can't win in the late game without swarm hosts." I've seen plenty of Koreans beat top end T and P in late game without swarm hosts even before this patch. Just off the top of my head: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfQLts07in4
People have unrealistic expectations. Professional broadcast matches are ridiculously balanced right now. WCS and SSL were won by Terrans, GSL by a zerg, proleague is literally as balanced as it can be (within 1% of being 50-50 in each matchup.) We haven't had enough of a sample from the patch at the highest level to see the effect it has. If this changes drastically then you can make this argument. The people who make claims like this do so because they want the game to be played a certain way.
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On April 13 2015 09:51 Yakikorosu wrote:This is not hard: if it turns out that Zerg is too weak without the old swarm hosts, some other unit will get buffed to compensate. The bottom line is that the game is way way way better off without the old swarm hosts and getting them out of the game is easily worth some rebalancing that might have to be done. And I call BS right now on the "Zerg can't win in the late game without swarm hosts." I've seen plenty of Koreans beat top end T and P in late game without swarm hosts even before this patch. Just off the top of my head: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfQLts07in4
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/g8SL9Um.jpg)
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all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans
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The Good: The patch is certainly attracting a lot of renewed attention to the game. It's nice Blizzard is willing to make big changes.
The Bad: Mech will be unbeatable. It's nice and all that Blizz is actively patching, but now they gotta fix their mess. You gotta be pretty naive to think things will be fine and dandy after removing the most integral zerg unit.
Firecake might have a bad rep, but he's a fantastic player who has proven his worth with a variety of styles.
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David Kim took the poorest decisions regarding Zerg.
They pushed LotV Swarmhost when they needed to rebuff infestor ptojectile speed (from 12 to 15) and bring in LotV Viper spell (a bit nerfed).
Broodlord truly needed a mobility buff, not SwarmHost.
Swadrmhost shoud have had Enduring locusts removed and given the possibility to spawn both types of locusts, short lived with short CD. (True harrass). More dispensable waves ate better than big dps waves spammed les often, since they fit the mentality of the exhausing tactics against static strategies.
Now that Swarmhosts are mobile, they should split their attack CD and strength in 2 and let them abuse mobility and flying locusts balanced around mobility instead of damage.
At 100/200 cost, almost no zerg is going to take SH over mutas toharass over mutlisks, considering the gogh cost of getting flying locusts.. (Hive + 200/200 160s upgrade) Flying locusts and mutas are also countered by the same units.
So Swarmhosts, if they want them to push as harass and dipensable antiturtle measure, should be less powerful, but cheaper (old cost) and more mobile, exchanging mobility for power and endurance.
They are right now the opposite thing that they want them to be.
#Antipatch time.
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On April 13 2015 10:03 shin_toss wrote:
all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans
Mind listing them :D?
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I'm trying to think of a moment in SC2 where I've felt more intense schadenfreude. Somehow I can't.
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On April 13 2015 10:03 shin_toss wrote:
all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans
What other unit can you have to deal with late game Protoss and maxed Terran Mech lol
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On April 13 2015 11:09 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:03 shin_toss wrote:
all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans What other unit can you have to deal with late game Protoss and maxed Terran Mech lol
don't let them get there
isn't that what you guys told us at the end of Lings of Liberty?
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it's funny, SH are nerfed and redesigned but they needed to be. They are still very good they just need to be used differently and creatively. Imagine using a batch of SH's to harrass one base (more options now with flying locusts) and then harassing the other side of the map with mutas.
Pros and high level players have a reasonable concern against turtle styles but lower level players are just mad that they don't have a constant harassment that doesn't drain multitasking.
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On April 13 2015 10:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 09:51 Yakikorosu wrote:This is not hard: if it turns out that Zerg is too weak without the old swarm hosts, some other unit will get buffed to compensate. The bottom line is that the game is way way way better off without the old swarm hosts and getting them out of the game is easily worth some rebalancing that might have to be done. And I call BS right now on the "Zerg can't win in the late game without swarm hosts." I've seen plenty of Koreans beat top end T and P in late game without swarm hosts even before this patch. Just off the top of my head: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfQLts07in4
lol...
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On April 13 2015 20:13 Exstasy wrote:
it's funny, SH are nerfed and redesigned but they needed to be. They are still very good they just need to be used differently and creatively. Imagine using a batch of SH's to harrass one base (more options now with flying locusts) and then harassing the other side of the map with mutas.
Pros and high level players have a reasonable concern against turtle styles but lower level players are just mad that they don't have a constant harassment that doesn't drain multitasking.
The problem isn't that actual SH are useless. They are re-designed now, so they have a new aim into the game. Ok but, now there's a lack of composition in the late game for the Zerg, that's the key. Actual SH can be really good for something that isn't a late game composition, is just a skirmish unit (like DTs for the Protoss, nobody makes an army of 40 DTs, they make 5-6 of them to harrass).
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
When a Protoss says that the day after a patch, there’s something very wrong.
That's the wrongest thing I've heard recently. A lot of stuff in SC2's history was broken for months before it was figured out. What people say one day after a patch is basically irrelevant.
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On April 13 2015 11:12 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 11:09 GGzerG wrote:On April 13 2015 10:03 shin_toss wrote:
all I see is a QQ. Like zerg has no other unit to deal vs Protoss and Terrans What other unit can you have to deal with late game Protoss and maxed Terran Mech lol don't let them get there isn't that what you guys told us at the end of Lings of Liberty?
yeah and BL/infestor was fucking broken wasn't it? Unless it's another retardiculous attempt at justifying Zerg being weaker by saying that it was overpowered in 2012
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Possible solutions:
- Hydra tier 3 upgrade (should be pretty safe)
- Roach Tier 3 upgrade (yeh can work too)
- Roach 1 suppply (I really want this, but probably too extreme for a patch).
- Increase the vision of Vipers
- Nerf/tweak/redesign PDD further (I really hate this ability)
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to me it's obvious that the solution is the hydraroach
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On April 13 2015 09:49 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 08:38 Team aAa wrote:
If you could change something about the balance of the game, what would you do ?
There’s so many things, so it’s difficult to respond with one thing in particular since they’re all interconnected. I would just like for Zerg to be able to win in the late game (that’s saying something besides a three or four-base all-in). Just that, at the least, to be able to macro…
isn't that CALLED a macro game? honestly if we're listening to this guy try to bore his way back into WCS via Snore Host stupidities, the SC2 really is in a sorry state
no it's the exact same situation as late WoL: do a timing attack or die since you got no lategame. that the timings occurs at 5 or 15min doesn't change the fact it's an awful thing.
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EPT
