EPTIf you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
WCS Premier Players Cannot Be Considered Good - Page 3
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working". | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13998 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:22 Circumstance wrote: If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working". I was under the impression that the Koreans are by far the most hard-working, granted they are in a more suitable atmosphere but still, they are hardworking, its why HuK was so good in 2011, foreigners don't want to put in the effort, hence all the bitching for region lock and retirement till legacy | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:20 Cricketer12 wrote: i dunno kev, we had a lot of people in both leagues, and a lot more in neither Don't forget about iirc there's also 3 Kespa Cups on the horizon this year for Korea. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12467 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:26 Cricketer12 wrote: I was under the impression that the Koreans are by far the most hard-working, granted they are in a more suitable atmosphere but still, they are hardworking, its why HuK was so good in 2011, foreigners don't want to put in the effort, hence all the bitching for region lock and retirement till legacy Before you continue this conversation, I feel the need to inform you that you are talking to someone who has argued that you wouldn't see the difference between a game of Rain and a game of a GM NA player if you didn't see the name of the player anywhere. | ||
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:26 Cricketer12 wrote: I was under the impression that the Koreans are by far the most hard-working, granted they are in a more suitable atmosphere but still, they are hardworking, its why HuK was so good in 2011, foreigners don't want to put in the effort, hence all the bitching for region lock and retirement till legacy Funny, I don't recall Huk bring Korean. It essentially proves my point: It's not the player winning, it's their system. As for "wanting to put in the effort", the effort of what? Trying to replicate the success of Koreans without any of the surroundings to make it happen? It's not like everyone has the luxury of taking the risk of uprooting their lives and moving to Korea and hoping it works out (see: State). | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13998 Posts
On February 20 2015 11:02 Musicus wrote: A 16 year old kid can be a good basketball player in his high school league. It's not wrong to call him that, since he is one of the best in his league and shows a great performance. Nobody will think calling him good means that he can beat NBA players. If the casters say something like "best of the world" or "greatest of all time" I tend to agree with you. But saying you can't call WCS Premiere League players good is ridiculous. Every GM player is good. WCS Premiere League players are extremely good. I will give you a cricket example..because you know its in my name. In international cricket, there tends to be an issue in some countries, where certain players are given multiple chances to do well in the team due to political leverage despite there being multiple far more talented players that are not given the chance to play. These players are "good" because they perform well against other players within their own country, yet when they reach the international stage their mediocrity becomes clear. Yet they are referred to as good when they clearly aren't, yet they are better than almost all cricket followers right? My point is, you shouldn't kid yourself and call them good, TaeJa, yes he is good, Life, yes he is good, Pig? No offense to the guy, but he isnt on the same league. Unless you want to offer the argument that JimRising and Capoch are as decent or near as, as Koreans, then I fail to see how they can be good, because we ARE comparing them to the rest of the world. This isnt High School Basketball, this is the world stage, I thought that was the purpose of your argument, otherwise you are admitting my point that they are good for their level, but they are not on the same level as the koreans, hence they aren't good. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12467 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13998 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:30 Circumstance wrote: Funny, I don't recall Huk bring Korean. It essentially proves my point: It's not the player winning, it's their system. As for "wanting to put in the effort", the effort of what? Trying to replicate the success of Koreans without any of the surroundings to make it happen? It's not like everyone has the luxury of taking the risk of uprooting their lives and moving to Korea and hoping it works out (see: State). my point was that he was successful because he was willing to put in the effort necessary to do so, same with the Koreans, unless you are trying to tell me that South Koreans have genetic advantages then I don't see your point. Plus, it still doesn't justify the bitching(in regards to region lock) nor calling the clearly inferior foreigners good. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13998 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:35 Nebuchad wrote: But you act as if when ToD says "mana played good" in WCS, he thinks "wow Mana played just like Rain". Nobody thinks that. You are arguing against misconceptions that don't exist. Again, unless you are willing to admit that "mana played good" because he was playing against a lower level than the best of the best, and are willing to admit that there is a clear distinction in skill between progamers and that to call some players good, in compared to others ridiculous, I don't see what your argument is. I will admit that MaNa played well today in WCS compared to the other players he faced in his WCS group . My argument is to keep perspective in mind. My argument is that they are not good, because I am comparing them to the Koreans which is what they should be compared to. Why? Because at the end of the day, there will be better players that won't be able to go to Blizzcon because people want to act childish and say "MaNa played good" and saying otherwise is offensive. EDIT: let me put it this way, It should go without saying that I think Mana is good, in the sense that he is far better than me. You should be able to assume that, now that we can assume that, I am making the argument he is not good because he is not as good as the Koreans, and yes I should be able to make that statement because these are Professional Players they are where they are because they are supposed to be the best. If criticizing them by comparing them to each other is unacceptable, then we have a problem. | ||
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:36 Cricketer12 wrote: my point was that he was successful because he was willing to put in the effort necessary to do so, same with the Koreans, unless you are trying to tell me that South Koreans have genetic advantages then I don't see your point. Plus, it still doesn't justify the bitching(in regards to region lock) nor calling the clearly inferior foreigners good. The bolded portion is the part that simply continues to be a pervasive myth throughout SC2 - Koreans are "simply better". If any other country had a training environment half as good as Korea's, then judging by the strides foreigners have already made, the use of the name "Global Starcraft League" for a tournament held entirely offline in a single country would be considered farcical. As for Huk "putting in the effort", not everyone has the capability to simply drop everything and move to Korea without any guarantee that they'll succeed against the people who've only ever had Korean training. That kind of a commitment, assuming a team house will even take you in, isn't feasible for the vast majority of human beings without a guarantee of ROI. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
In what % of the best (here: progamers) do you have to be to be called good? How many sc2 progamers do we have right now? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12467 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:42 Cricketer12 wrote: Again, unless you are willing to admit that "mana played good" because he was playing against a lower level than the best of the best, and are willing to admit that there is a clear distinction in skill between progamers and that to call some players good, in compared to others ridiculous, I don't see what your argument is. I will admit that MaNa played well today in WCS compared to the other players he faced in his WCS group . My argument is to keep perspective in mind. My argument is that they are not good, because I am comparing them to the Koreans which is what they should be compared to. Why? Because at the end of the day, there will be better players that won't be able to go to Blizzcon because people want to act childish and say "MaNa played good" and saying otherwise is offensive. You're not making a new point, you're just developping the misconception that you pretend we have. So my answer is the same: we do not have it. We didn't tune in tonight to watch Mana vs Life. If we say he played well tonight, we don't do it because we ignore that he isn't playing against Life. We realize that. On top of that, you argue as if there was a system in which the 16 "most deserving" players reach Blizzcon. That system doesn't exist, unless you can present me with a way to judge "merit" instead of results. | ||
Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
Imagine a world where one year the NBA decided to cancel "playoffs" as they are currently known and instead gave out some of the spots (I don't follow basketball but I'm going to imagine playoffs are the top 8 teams here) to the top highschool and college teams. These younger teams would not only get completely owned but fans of the teams that would have made it in to playoffs would be furious that their team's spot was taken by a team with 0 chance of taking the title. Now imagine calling that same 16 year old highschool player "really good" when you know he's going to be compared to NBA players in the near future and be utterly demolished | ||
digmouse
China6331 Posts
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nvs.
Canada3609 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13998 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:47 Circumstance wrote: The bolded portion is the part that simply continues to be a pervasive myth throughout SC2 - Koreans are "simply better". If any other country had a training environment half as good as Korea's, then judging by the strides foreigners have already made, the use of the name "Global Starcraft League" for a tournament held entirely offline in a single country would be considered farcical. As for Huk "putting in the effort", not everyone has the capability to simply drop everything and move to Korea without any guarantee that they'll succeed against the people who've only ever had Korean training. That kind of a commitment, assuming a team house will even take you in, isn't feasible for the vast majority of human beings without a guarantee of ROI. I will ask you this, what is the point of the professional scene? Is it to watch as the best of the best clash in battle wits and speed that has been produced by passion for a video game? Or is it to suck all players dicks if they get into premier? Quite honestly, there is no way you can make the argument that watching theStC Snute ViBe and theognis can compare with watching DongRaeGu Polt Rain Taeja. I am not saying that foreigners should be shunned because they are not koreans, but they shouldnt be given undeserved praise. In MOST cases unless I am forgetting something, unless you won a premier tournament or showed tremendous talent, can you really be praised? Sure MaNa and Bunny made it into premier, so did 30 other players, and the 48 players in the Korean leagues are still better, so why praise them? Grow up, if MaNa can win WCS, and beat some of the koreans in the process, hell yes he is good. If he goes deep, then I will say he showed promise, but again that is only when compared with everyone else in WCS, the players in Korea are still at a higher level | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Top 100? Top 50? How many progamers do we even have right now in sc2? On February 20 2015 13:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Why should I hold a player in lesser regard, because his opposition isn't as good in one of the league he plays in? And I'm not sure why you care that people hold them in high regard. Most of the viewer base considers the level of play of the Korean scene as much higher than that of the foreign scene, and rightly so, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't appreciate foreign player's worth for what they are. Ok to make an extreme example. Some casters say foreigner X is one of the best players in the world. I mean sure, if we look at all the sc2 players, from bronze to gm, YES then this is correct. But that's kinda ridiculous, isn't it? "worlds best" surely doesn't mean top 100 in a game where not even 1000 professional players exist. The same is true for "good", obviously to a lesser extent here. We just have to define what "good" means now. Why is it important? To not lose the meaning and context of these phrases. i don't wanna hear caster X tell me that foreigner Y is one of the very best. I mean i know that it's bs, but what about someone who doesn't watch sc2 regularly? It destroys storylines and thus excitement. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26953 Posts
There is much more South Korean content, and both Starleagues are pretty much universally accepted as the true prestigious leagues. Running alongside Proleague there's a consistent stream of the BEST Starcraft there is. Outside of Korea, the foreign players have a tournament that they can push for that is an incentive for PURELY competitive-focused play. Koreans who want to live outside of Korea for their own reasons whatever those may be can also compete, and their presence in that scene will drive up the skill. Many especially EU pros are on record as saying that the guys like forGG who play and live in their region are something they welcome, as they get better practice to try and bridge the gap. Remember how MLG started to fly out Koreans on their own dime, whereas I recall one where White-Ra went something like 22-0 through an Open Bracket and lost to Select or somebody and literally made pretty much no money? It's an extreme example, but there's an infrastructure problem at hand. It's why so many foreign players, even good ones diligently stream, show up on talk shows and do other things like coaching to fund their lives. This all naturally cuts in to their practice, it just naturally will. You are trying to bridge a gap to Koreans with their well-noted practice regimes while having to potentially earn revenue at the same time, vs worse quality practice partners. I'm thinking for the long-term health of the game, this current setup is potentially good. Koreans have more Korean tournaments, so the high density of talent in that region gets more opportunities, it's about time. There is MORE Korean content for those concerned about the quality of play above all else, | ||
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
On February 20 2015 13:00 Cricketer12 wrote: I will ask you this, what is the point of the professional scene? Is it to watch as the best of the best clash in battle wits and speed that has been produced by passion for a video game? Or is it to suck all players dicks if they get into premier? Quite honestly, there is no way you can make the argument that watching theStC Snute ViBe and theognis can compare with watching DongRaeGu Polt Rain Taeja. I am not saying that foreigners should be shunned because they are not koreans, but they shouldnt be given undeserved praise. In MOST cases unless I am forgetting something, unless you won a premier tournament or showed tremendous talent, can you really be praised? Sure MaNa and Bunny made it into premier, so did 30 other players, and the 48 players in the Korean leagues are still better, so why praise them? Grow up, if MaNa can win WCS, and beat some of the koreans in the process, hell yes he is good. If he goes deep, then I will say he showed promise, but again that is only when compared with everyone else in WCS, the players in Korea are still at a higher level Now you're on a different subject - individual praise of players. For that, I simply ask you what purpose saying "stop liking things I don't like" serves. All that does is foster negativity and discourage involvement in the scene. | ||
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