On February 22 2015 09:08 Darthsanta13 wrote:
I will argue that in the same way that we aren't allowed to call anyone except life or parting good anymore, we are no longer allowed to call any threads bad while this crown jewel of threads exists

hahaha you gave me a good laugh!

Tuczniak

1561 Posts

February 22 2015 00:40 GMT

#242

Anyone that's not top5 player in the world should be called scrub, average or loser. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.

Caihead

Canada8550 Posts

February 22 2015 01:03 GMT

#243

On February 22 2015 09:40 Tuczniak wrote:
Anyone that's not top5 player in the world should be called scrub, average or loser. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.

I would rather live in a world where we can call people scrub, average, or loser than pretend everyone is good forever. I rather cheer a player through a terrible slump while acknowledging that he's playing like garbage than listen to bullshit hype and bandwagoning.

Blargh

United States2103 Posts

February 22 2015 01:40 GMT

#244

On February 22 2015 10:03 Caihead wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think it's safe to say that a majority of viewers, and particularly the newer ones, would prefer otherwise. It's okay to be partially critical of players, but it's never a good idea to talk poorly about a player in your tournament... It's pretty much a casters role to hype up actions and players, though. So, if it really bothers you, I think the mute button would be the place to go. I know I find most of the commentary rather useless, so I often just listen to my own music instead. Sometimes I don't mind hearing what they have to say, though (usually with Protoss, as I don't understand P as well as T/Z).

Cricketer12

United States13994 Posts

February 22 2015 02:06 GMT

#245

On February 22 2015 10:03 Caihead wrote:

Show nested quote +

I agree with this, but I can see how it could look bad especially to new viewers if casters said what we are saying to ourselves. Recall how annoying artosis was when soO played TaeJa, now imagine if taeja was playing bly instead and was crushing him. It wouldnt look good if casters bashed Bly etc...

midnight999

United States257 Posts

February 22 2015 02:11 GMT

#246

What the hell is the point of this thread? There's no definite, objective scale to define "good" or "bad" so I'm not sure what the OP is getting at. Yes, Koreans pros on average are much better than foreign pros, but this shouldn't mean that their accomplishments should be swept under the rug like it's nothing.

On February 20 2015 10:06 Powerfoe wrote:
WCS Premier is not the same calibre as GSL or NSSL, so those players should be held in a lesser regard.

Way to state the obvious, lol.

Phredxor

New Zealand15076 Posts

February 22 2015 02:25 GMT

#247

Seems fair to call them good. They may not be the very top 10 or 20 players in the world but they're still 'good'.

Jacenoob

299 Posts

February 22 2015 02:25 GMT

#248

It is a shame that the OP goes a bit too far. The term "good" is too loose to ever come to an agreement.

Because the topic is quite relevant. With "World Championship Series - Premier" it sounds like World Class players would be playing. And that is definetely not the case - there are ForGG, Snute and Polt and even they are only Top15 if you are generous. Rest is just not World Class.

feebleFanfare

76 Posts

February 22 2015 02:27 GMT

#249

I'm not really convinced that casters and hosts pretending a player is better than they are is something that actually happens a lot. Watching WCS today, I didn't see anyone claiming that forGG was anything other than a huge favourite to win the group. And personally, if the casters went on and on about how forGG was better than his opponents I'd feel pretty patronised as a viewer. By all means, discuss what makes him good, but I don't need to be constantly reminded that Koreans are good at StarCraft.

If this were a major issue, it would mean that large portions of the audience/community believe that foreigners are as good as Koreans. I just don't think that's the case. Whether it's long posts on TL or people saying "full foreigner lol" in Twitch chat, everyone clearly knows who the best are. We're capable of appreciating people's skill and getting excited about their matches without pretending they're the best in the world.

Cheren

United States2911 Posts

February 22 2015 02:37 GMT

#250

As a (former) player, I think WCS players are good. As a spectator who also watches Korean leagues, I don't.

And I think that's where the debate is coming from. You don't really see baseball fans calling the team in last place "good", but they likely haven't played any baseball at a competitive level in years, if at all, and I think the same is true of any physical sport.

But as a Starcraft II fan, or as a fan of any esport, you can hop on the ladder right after the game is on and completely and utterly fail to be even half as good as the worst professional player. And so you just call everyone good, because they are, compared to you. The one thing this thread mostly seems to agree on is that "good" is a relative term.

Thyrym

89 Posts

March 04 2015 19:29 GMT

#251

Well, there are difference between:
Good
Best
Fine

Leviance

Germany4079 Posts

March 04 2015 22:13 GMT

#252

It's similar to Champions League and the World Cup (In football)

In Champions League you will watch the highest level games. And still World Cup is awesome.

I don't get the OP. You must hate the Olympic games.

Shuffleblade

Sweden1903 Posts

March 04 2015 22:20 GMT

#253

On February 20 2015 10:14 trumpet43 wrote:

The problem with this argument is that in suggests that to be good one must be able to go toe to toe with the top Koreans. This is not a fair judgement at all, especially since these foreigners are amazing at the game compared to people who do not play competitively. They are even quite close competitively with Koreans at times. When we say "Wow that guy is great!" in WCS it is true that that doesn't mean they can beat top Koreans necessarily, but it does mean they are consistently dominant in WCS against their peers. That means that we absolutely can call them good, amazing, etc.
.

Pretty much this, if we go to a local hockey/soccer/baseball/whatever match we probably won't whine about casters calling players "good" even though they are not as good as the absolute best players in the world.

Everyone is not compared to the best of the world thats just a ridiculous notion, TLO, Mana or whoever european is probably within the 100 best players of SC2 in the world period. Thinking about how many people there are in the world I think calling that great or amazing is pretty much right on the money.

Players are judged depending on their environment, if they were at a small lan they would be god, in WCS they are great in korea they would be mediocre at best.

Waxangel

United States33584 Posts

March 04 2015 22:39 GMT

#254

arguments about semantics are good

OnegameClub

Philippines18 Posts

March 07 2015 01:22 GMT

#255

naming it "world championships" then banning the best in the world is kind of ridiculous, deceptive and is basically a scumbag move. don't name it world championships if you ban certain races to participate, whatever the reason is for the ban, its just wrong on all fronts.

Clonester

Germany2808 Posts

March 07 2015 01:27 GMT

#256

Thats why it is part of the world championchip series, where all events give players point to become part in the global playoffs at blizzcon. And what, what did I hear, there are even to Leagues with the same points ins korea, where the best players are. Magnificant. And oh yeah, I heared some said, "Not South Korea World Championchip Series" sounds broken.

I mean, I am nowhere near a fan of the exodus we had here in Germany, but bitching without any more serious argument then "WCS is named WCS thats so stupid, no koreans, plox!" is just not that kind of Argument, when the everything in the WCS (also GSL and NSL) lead to the global playoffs, where, per usuall, 15 or 16 koreans will play it out.