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On February 21 2015 03:53 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 03:52 Doodsmack wrote:On February 21 2015 03:49 Caihead wrote:On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote:
casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"?
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though.
Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ?
I remember years ago when artosis / tasteless casted that set of forgg vs zerg (leenock?) when forgg (who was way hyped at the time) did a really bad marine push that failed miserably. And all the commentary was "wow I can't believe how BAD that was" or "im sorry you guys had to watch that" in an unironic way. And they were absolutely right. Therefore casters should always castigate the players in foreigner vs foreigner games? No. No. Point being it's okay to say a player is bad or played bad and no one should be beyond reproach. Saying every one is good loses meaning.
But in your opinion, all foreign players are bad because they are worse than Koreans. So if a caster is going to accurately describe a player he always has to call foreign players bad, right?
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On February 21 2015 03:55 boxerfred wrote:
I think WCS Premier players are good players.
I think the confusion comes from a missunderstanding tbh.
Yes they are good players, but they don't have to be good progamers.
People usually use "players" regardless of the context though.
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Bisutopia19365 Posts
On February 21 2015 03:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 03:55 boxerfred wrote:
I think WCS Premier players are good players. I think the confusion comes from a missunderstanding tbh. Yes they are good players, but they don't have to be good progamers. People usually use "players" regardless of the context though.
Do you find the OP more insulting to non-Korean players or are what the commentators saying more insulting to Koreans? That's the real ethical dilemma.
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On February 21 2015 03:53 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 03:52 Doodsmack wrote:On February 21 2015 03:49 Caihead wrote:On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote:
casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"?
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though.
Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ?
I remember years ago when artosis / tasteless casted that set of forgg vs zerg (leenock?) when forgg (who was way hyped at the time) did a really bad marine push that failed miserably. And all the commentary was "wow I can't believe how BAD that was" or "im sorry you guys had to watch that" in an unironic way. And they were absolutely right. Therefore casters should always castigate the players in foreigner vs foreigner games? No. No. Point being it's okay to say a player is bad or played bad and no one should be beyond reproach. Saying every one is good loses meaning.
"good" doesn't lose meaning. Other words do, for example the word "nervous" or the word "strange", that are overly used to describe bad play.
But I'm glad you brought up "bad" because that's one of the 1000 places where the whole theory falls flat. Let's say someone plays badly in the next GSL group. If people say he's bad, and the same people have been saying that Mana was good yesterday, are you really going to conclude that we think Mana is better than that person? Think on that. If you don't, then you know we're capable of accounting for context, and you know the whole discussion is pointless.
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On February 21 2015 04:02 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 03:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 21 2015 03:55 boxerfred wrote:
I think WCS Premier players are good players. I think the confusion comes from a missunderstanding tbh. Yes they are good players, but they don't have to be good progamers. People usually use "players" regardless of the context though. Do you find the OP more insulting to non-Korean players or are what the commentators saying more insulting to Koreans? That's the real ethical dilemma.
I actually don't care about the OP all that much (i don't think it is a good post at all tbh). I just argue the notion that every progamer is automatically a good one. I don't agree with that.
If we wanna value the skill level of these progamers (if we actually wanna do that, i think it's interesting) there have to be average and bad ones too, that's just how it works..^^
As i said before though, i think it's stupid when casters tell me that all these players are the best in the world, i actually think this is kinda insulting to the really best ones.
I just would like casters to be more precise in the end i guess.
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On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore.
He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it?
who said that? I dont.
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On February 21 2015 03:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote:
casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"?
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though.
Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ?
Yes they are here to make the game interesting through their casting, that doesn't mean they have to do it in these silly ways. If everybody knows it's over, there is no point to not call it over. You don't have to be that extreme as your example either, but pls don't think the viewers are stupid :/ If you don't have the ability to cast games with more nuance than your two examples, maybe you are just not a good caster at the end of the day? (nah every caster is good, that's why they are casting there and not me, bla bla  )
it s an extreme example, I dont like it. I am not a caster (obviously).. I meant to say it s nothing unusual for casters that s all. I actually watch mostly Korean streams because there is passion and not annoying comments like Wolf
edit: spelling issues
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On February 21 2015 04:16 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore.
He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it? who said that? I dont.
That's the only thing that makes sense.
Otherwise we could say diamond players are really good as well cause they are in the top 10% of players.
Ofc we should value in the context of a certain group, here: progamers.
That doesn't mean that we cannot value them in other categories as well though, player X might not be a very good progamer worldwide, he maybe is a very good foreigner though, different categories.
But yeah, i don't think i can add anything reasonable anymore, you either think valuing these things in different contexts is usefull (i think so), or you don't...
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On February 21 2015 04:02 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 03:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 21 2015 03:55 boxerfred wrote:
I think WCS Premier players are good players. I think the confusion comes from a missunderstanding tbh. Yes they are good players, but they don't have to be good progamers. People usually use "players" regardless of the context though. Do you find the OP more insulting to non-Korean players or are what the commentators saying more insulting to Koreans? That's the real ethical dilemma.
I think what's really insulting is that Koreans aren't allowed to take part in the biggest international league, which is called WCS, because they're too good compared to foreigner scrubs.
There are a number of legitimate foreign players but half the names in WCS premier league have nothing to do being there.
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Bisutopia19365 Posts
On February 21 2015 04:48 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 04:02 BisuDagger wrote:On February 21 2015 03:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 21 2015 03:55 boxerfred wrote:
I think WCS Premier players are good players. I think the confusion comes from a missunderstanding tbh. Yes they are good players, but they don't have to be good progamers. People usually use "players" regardless of the context though. Do you find the OP more insulting to non-Korean players or are what the commentators saying more insulting to Koreans? That's the real ethical dilemma. I think what's really insulting is that Koreans aren't allowed to take part in the biggest international league, which is called WCS, because they're too good compared to foreigner scrubs. There are a number of legitimate foreign players but half the names in WCS premier league have nothing to do being there.
I think we are all hoping that the decision Blizzard made will help rise the skill level of foreign players and help sustain the scene. Blizzard obviously made a choice this is going to be unpopular with a lot of people. I admire it because it is a very bold one to make even though they are constantly under the subject of ridicule. If at the end of this year or even next year foreigners are contending with Koreans for the world title, then Blizzard will no doubt deserve a good deal of credit.
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The context of western WCS is not the same as the world context, that's why it's OK to say wcs players are good.
Yeah, when they face up against major Korean competition, then we won't call them good in that context, but in the context they are currently playing, and the one commentators are talking about, they are good.
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you can be good without being godly top korean tier imo, most ppl in sc community tend to be huge fanboys of korean players only and hates everyone else that can't play 24/7 in a korean teamhouse environment it seems
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Canada13407 Posts
On February 21 2015 06:07 coL.hendralisk wrote:
you can be good without being godly top korean tier imo, most ppl in sc community tend to be huge fanboys of korean players only and hates everyone else that can't play 24/7 in a korean teamhouse environment it seems
I think the real issue is that the premise is wrong.
Not everyone is amazing.
But to have a professional scene the professionals all need to be good to begin with.
And when everyone is amazing there are still extremely amazing players, even if some are fairly even they are still steps above others who are above others etc.
With regards to the OP.
But if you wanna talk about a StarCraft problem - yeah a lot of people dont like to support more localized scene, even though they are on paper less skillfull than the koreans, its still fun to watch the NA/EU/non top Korean players.
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On February 21 2015 04:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 04:16 Cheerio wrote:On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore.
He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it? who said that? I dont. That's the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise we could say diamond players are really good as well cause they are in the top 10% of players. Ofc we should value in the context of a certain group, here: progamers. That doesn't mean that we cannot value them in other categories as well though, player X might not be a very good progamer worldwide, he maybe is a very good foreigner though, different categories. But yeah, i don't think i can add anything reasonable anymore, you either think valuing these things in different contexts is usefull (i think so), or you don't...
Casters don't cast the game for progamers only, they are talking to the audience. So the perspective is from the point of view of average Joe. It's like "did you see that game? Man, he is so good, you can't play that well". If you want to compare them to other progamers whats wrong with saying "he is such a good progamer"? Everyone is happy, problem solved. You've made an incorrect assumption that only context of "progamers" makes sense.
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On February 21 2015 06:38 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 04:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 21 2015 04:16 Cheerio wrote:On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore.
He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it? who said that? I dont. That's the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise we could say diamond players are really good as well cause they are in the top 10% of players. Ofc we should value in the context of a certain group, here: progamers. That doesn't mean that we cannot value them in other categories as well though, player X might not be a very good progamer worldwide, he maybe is a very good foreigner though, different categories. But yeah, i don't think i can add anything reasonable anymore, you either think valuing these things in different contexts is usefull (i think so), or you don't... Casters don't cast the game for progamers only, they are talking to the audience. So the perspective is from the point of view of average Joe. It's like "did you see that game? Man, he is so good, you can't play that well". If you want to compare them to other progamers whats wrong with saying "he is such a good progamer"? Everyone is happy, problem solved. You've made an incorrect assumption that only context of "progamers" makes sense.
A "random joe" is also interested in how the progamers stand up against each other. He already knows that these players are all way better than him.
If every single progamer is "such a good progamer", there is literally no information transported.
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Being good is relative. Being "good" or "bad" itself doesn't mean anything. You can be "good" or "bad" compared to someone else. It's obvious that in a game like starcraft, an average player sucks compared to someone who sucks compared to someone who sucks.... and so on before reaching the world top players.
WCS premier players are bad compared to GSL/SSL players, but compared to an average viewer, they are obviously infinitely better, and they can do awesome things that the average viewer wouldn't even dream about.
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I haven't really followed SC2 that much lately, but won't this foreigner only WCS be really hurtful for foreigners in a long run since they will play easier matches, while in GSL matches will get even harder and skill difference will become even bigger?
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Rain confirmed Kane is 'good'. This discussion is over now
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On February 21 2015 06:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 06:38 Cheerio wrote:On February 21 2015 04:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 21 2015 04:16 Cheerio wrote:On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore.
He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it? who said that? I dont. That's the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise we could say diamond players are really good as well cause they are in the top 10% of players. Ofc we should value in the context of a certain group, here: progamers. That doesn't mean that we cannot value them in other categories as well though, player X might not be a very good progamer worldwide, he maybe is a very good foreigner though, different categories. But yeah, i don't think i can add anything reasonable anymore, you either think valuing these things in different contexts is usefull (i think so), or you don't... Casters don't cast the game for progamers only, they are talking to the audience. So the perspective is from the point of view of average Joe. It's like "did you see that game? Man, he is so good, you can't play that well". If you want to compare them to other progamers whats wrong with saying "he is such a good progamer"? Everyone is happy, problem solved. You've made an incorrect assumption that only context of "progamers" makes sense. A "random joe" is also interested in how the progamers stand up against each other. He already knows that these players are all way better than him. If every single progamer is "such a good progamer", there is literally no information transported.
I don't know about you, but I personally hate it when casters act like they know all and start building hierarchies of progamers only to have them fall apart every second time. Its ok to make predictions, being a smartass is not what casters should aim for.
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The WCS prize pool is 217000 and explicitly prevents those living in Korea from playing. The combined GSL + SSL prize pool is only 150000. It doesnt seem fair that GSL + SSL has much higher quality players and yet have a significantly smaller prize pool.
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EPT
