At the end of 2014, Blizzard announced a change to their WCS system which would highly restrict the players eligible to participate in their non-Korean WCS events. Now, barring exceptional circumstances, you pretty much have to be white in order to compete in this event.
Now when games are being played, we can see that a lot more fan favourites, such as TLO and MaNa, are able to advance further and more easily in these tournaments due to lesser competition.
This is great and all, but there is an issue where casters and fans start calling these players "good" or "awesome" or "outstanding". However, this is not the case because we know that these players would most likely not have the same success if they had to compete against players wielding the Korean flag. In my opinion it is extremely unfair and borderline offensive to the top Korean players that these foreign hopes are considered to be "good players" when they are clearly not on the same level. WCS Premier is not the same calibre as GSL or NSSL, so those players should be held in a lesser regard.
One video that discusses a lot of this issue is here:
Unfortunately I completely agree with this. Even if foreigners make it to Blizzcon or compete against good Koreans in weekend tournaments, the majority of them don't stand a chance. Getting WCS Premier Round of 4 will mean nothing if they can't beat someone like Parting or ForGG.
Alright, let me say my two cents. You stated the following:
"This is great and all, but there is an issue where casters and fans start calling these players "good" or "awesome" or "outstanding". However, this is not the case because we know that these players would most likely not have the same success if they had to compete against players wielding the Korean flag."
The problem with this argument is that in suggests that to be good one must be able to go toe to toe with the top Koreans. This is not a fair judgement at all, especially since these foreigners are amazing at the game compared to people who do not play competitively. They are even quite close competitively with Koreans at times. When we say "Wow that guy is great!" in WCS it is true that that doesn't mean they can beat top Koreans necessarily, but it does mean they are consistently dominant in WCS against their peers. That means that we absolutely can call them good, amazing, etc.
Even though the skill level overall is lower in WCS premiere as last year, it is very good for the scene and it hopefully will give foreigners the drive to put in the hours and the mental effort to become as good as the oh so highly acclaimed Korean players. The reason that the Koreans got so far ahead was that they had their own leagues with easier guarantees of money, giving more incentive to truly dedicate oneself to the game. With a similar set up in the foreign scene, one day soon we might see more than 3 foreigners who can hold their own at GSL level.
Overall I am very glad for the harder region locks as it lets me cheer on my favorite players and it gives them reason to keep playing the game. If blizzard took it any farther and gave out seeds to certain fan favorites in order to keep it interesting then I would be worried.
You do realize that being a top 16 player out of the americas, China, australia and EU fits into most people definition of good, outstanding and awesome.
It is up to each individual person to set their own definition of what good is, this is not objective...
This is so very patronizing. They are far better than a vast majority of SC2 players, and thus should be considered good. A lot of Korean pros are better, some outstanding, the world elite, godlike if you want to go that far. But this should not be used as an argument to degrade players of this quality. Nevermind that there are players in WCS Premier who are on the same level as many Koreans, i.e. Liquid's own Snute and Bunny who have taken games and even series against Korean players. Naniwa was, in his prime, more successful than many Koreans. Saying that these people aren't good is beyond "borderline offensive".
Giving it a bit more thought, I think the OP is saying that most Koreans are basically confined to Korea now and it is very unfair to them because the talent level is too damn high there. It's like the GSL from before. One season we might have Parting. Next we'll have Life. Then another we'll have Mvp. If Koreans are looking to attend Blizzcon and gain points solely by playing in GSL and Starleague in Korea, I think it is safe to say we won't see many Koreans at Blizzcon.
The OP is ridiculous. You realize you're arguing over the mere usage of the words "good" or "awesome"?
I guess by that reasoning players playing in a sports league other than the BEST LEAGUE IN THE WORLD should not be referred to by announcers in any positive way? Japanese baseball fans are now forbidden to refer to players playing in the Japanese baseball league as "good" because they're not good enough to play in the American leagues?
Trust me, everyone who knows anything about SC2 knows TLO and MaNa are not quite as good as Life and Rain. To suggest that this should somehow restrict people's ability to give them credit for strong play is asinine.
Of course they are good. A few Koreans might be so much better that the WCS guys won't win consistently against them. But that doesn't make them bad. We aren't at that point of skill difference like BW had, were players were considered good for someone outside of Korea. We are getting there though thanks to the new WCS system. As competition is less fierce now in the international scene, while Korea will be a Battle Royal this year.
And even if it comes to this,they will still be good
I don't think anyone is arguing that most of the wcs players are quite on the same level as say Life or Maru, although "good" doesn't have to mean "one of the top 5 players in the world" or anything like that..
1. There are a lot of Starcraft 2 players out there. If you're among the top couple hundred then I'd say that you are pretty darn good.
2. Matches don't need to be between "the very best players in the world" to be fun to watch. In fact many of the most exciting, back and forth games out there involve players that make do mistakes and aren't very predictable, or are upsets where an underdog gets lucky and does manage to somehow get a win.
well i half way typed up a logical argument with reasons and then remembered this is the internet so there is absolutely no point to doing so. Concept behind this thread is wrong and if OP wants to watch top koreans battle it out there is GSL and pro league for exactly that and if they hate casters saying foreigners are good then don't watch. Why do you even want to watch players that you think are only okay at best? That makes no logical sense
A 16 year old kid can be a good basketball player in his high school league. It's not wrong to call him that, since he is one of the best in his league and shows a great performance. Nobody will think calling him good means that he can beat NBA players.
If the casters say something like "best of the world" or "greatest of all time" I tend to agree with you. But saying you can't call WCS Premiere League players good is ridiculous. Every GM player is good. WCS Premiere League players are extremely good.
I dont really understand one thing though. A lot of foreigners are not as good as the top tier koreans. But a lot of koreans are not nearly as good as top tier koreans either though they still get to play in the same NSSL and GSL (or SPL) as these toptiers. Looking at the top foreigner team in Snute, Naniwa, Stephano and IdrA (back in the day) but even Scarlett and Grubby to some extend (and a lot more, cba to list them all) they can be considered to be atleast on par with the semi-top koreans (think of Trap, Hurricane, Sleep, Action etc). No they won't break through at the top-tier-korean level (yet?) but they do really well so far.
I do like WCS in its current form, however the system needs to filter a bit more. Noobs out, good people in. That is what will happen in the next few seasons (I hope), same goes for NSSL to some extend as well.
I see where OP is going with this, being bitter that Koreans have basically been forced back to Korea because they dominated all the WCS leagues last year. But I think it is condescending to say that foreign players doing well in Premier league are "not good" or less than top tier. They earned their spots and the level of competition has been strong. YoDa and Soulkey are probably better than Jim and Kelazhur, but not THAT much better and certainly not "they don't deserve to be in the same tournament" better like OP seems to imply.
On February 20 2015 10:14 geokilla wrote: Unfortunately I completely agree with this. Even if foreigners make it to Blizzcon or compete against good Koreans in weekend tournaments, the majority of them don't stand a chance. Getting WCS Premier Round of 4 will mean nothing if they can't beat someone like Parting or ForGG.
Five years after the game came out, we're still stuck with "AMAZING STORMS!!!"
Calling TLO a great player doesn't even register as a blip on the radar of "goofy and not entirely accurate things casters say all the time" by comparison.
These are the kind of threads that make me think I actually DO need to compile a formal list of all the absolutely boneheaded moves made in Korean leagues that would be mocked forever if a foreigner had done them.
The op only focused on one point, but if any intelligent being were praticing 8 hours a day since beta they would probably be at least as the same level as the NA/EU player that get praised so much. In a sense there is nothing extraordinary with these players, the only foreigners I would consider worthy of being called talented/good is Stephano in is prime and Naniwa.
I mean all the others dont seems to be naturally gifted or a level above what the average intelligent human could reach with 8hours of pratice a day.
"Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
On February 20 2015 11:30 j4vz wrote: The op only focused on one point, but if any intelligent being were praticing 8 hours a day since beta they would probably be at least as the same level as the NA/EU player that get praised so much. In a sense there is nothing extraordinary with these players, the only foreigners I would consider worthy of being called talented/good is Stephano in is prime and Naniwa.
I mean all the others dont seems to be naturally gifted or a level above what the average intelligent human could reach with 8hours of pratice a day.
Wait, are you trying to argue that south Koreans are just born better StarCraft players, or are you just complaining that for most nonkoreans it isn't feasible to practice 8 hours a day for years on end?
I think anyone who's been around for even a little while would have pieced together that probably less than 5 foreigners would be considered "good" relative to Korean compeition. Koreans came 1 game away from all-killing another year after already doing so in 2013 (SEN!). The gap has widened since the beginning of sc2.
I recently said I don't want any foreigner except Snute to make it into the top 16 for the upcoming IEM. Why? I've come to accept that those foreign slots would likely be a waste. Just a blowout series waiting to happen.
Still, I think the assumption that when a foreigner receives praise for being "good" it's with respect to their level of competition. Foreigners are still professionals and would probably shit all over the vast majority of TL in gameplay quality. So there's still a reason to praise and watch their competition. There's still something to learn from them. In fact, I'm actually liking this new WCS system. It's nice seeing all the regions clash against each other with a few schoolyard bullies mixed in (Koreans) :p
OP gives out obvious facts that weren't contested and pretends he's making a breakthrough.
Nobody who argued for a region lock of WCS did so because he thought all regions would be equally skilled. Literally nobody. Actually, the reason for wanting a region lock was the opposite, so you couldn't find a clearer strawman if you tried.
Another problem with your argument is that you're going to want to pretend there is a system that allows for equal skill in every WCS region. There is no such thing. Even without restriction, the best competition will remain the one in Korea. So under your definition, we can never call anything good unless it's Ro8 GSL. That doesn't make a ton of sense. There is a difference between being good and being amongst the best, and anyone who watches starcraft a little bit will tell you that (unless they have an agenda to say otherwise).
On February 20 2015 10:14 geokilla wrote: Unfortunately I completely agree with this. Even if foreigners make it to Blizzcon or compete against good Koreans in weekend tournaments, the majority of them don't stand a chance. Getting WCS Premier Round of 4 will mean nothing if they can't beat someone like Parting or ForGG.
ROFL.
There are very few people on earth who can beat PartinG. He is one of the absolute best players on earth.
It's like saying you're bad at tennis if you can't beat Federer or Nadal or Djoko. There are hundreds of very talented tennis players who make a living playing Tennis and never win Grand Slams.
I must be the only one that got a sarcastic vibe out of OP, posting this after Violet lost in premier league and Mana even advanced, one of the people he references even.
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
On February 20 2015 10:14 geokilla wrote: Unfortunately I completely agree with this. Even if foreigners make it to Blizzcon or compete against good Koreans in weekend tournaments, the majority of them don't stand a chance. Getting WCS Premier Round of 4 will mean nothing if they can't beat someone like Parting or ForGG.
you just grouped ForGG with PartinG >_>
Yeah I don't know why I said Parting. I was thinking of your average Korean. Should have said Trap or B4 instead I guess? Honestly it's going to be hard to compare players right now given so little weekend tournaments happened in 2015 so far.
Answer this though, is it fair to see players like Bunny or Mana at Blizzcon when we can have Maru, or Parting instead? Not hating on anyone but to me, Blizzcon is for the best of the best. The way WCS is done this year almost certainly won't allow that.
Would you say the competition is a farce? And that there are probably 50 500million Korean players out there that could come in and dominate at will if they switched the game the region? If so then I totally agree and everybody calling TLO even remotely good should be forced to watch Lillekanin's, Firecake's, Stephano's or avilo's stream for 10hours a game.
On February 20 2015 10:17 Elentos wrote: This is so very patronizing. They are far better than a vast majority of SC2 players, and thus should be considered good. A lot of Korean pros are better, some outstanding, the world elite, godlike if you want to go that far. But this should not be used as an argument to degrade players of this quality. Nevermind that there are players in WCS Premier who are on the same level as many Koreans, i.e. Liquid's own Snute and Bunny who have taken games and even series against Korean players. Naniwa was, in his prime, more successful than many Koreans. Saying that these people aren't good is beyond "borderline offensive".
I never understood this ideology, yes, the players in premier are unfathomably better than I am, but at the same time, we are not comparing them to me are we? No we are comparing them to other progamers, therefore the best of the best are the standard by which we measure the skill of all progamers, and as such you cannot call players like Juanito, Kelazhur, even Bunny etc good, because they really are not on the same level as most Koreans. In fact, I would argue that your insistence to call all these guys "outstanding" an affront to the far better Koreans. I'll put it this way, Life Sleep Maru and Showtime are in the same group at say, an IEM. We can confidently say that Life and Maru will advance from the group, because the other two players are bad in comparison. If you want to make the argument that that is far too extreme an example, then how about this, HuK HyuN Seed Major. Seed is a former GSL champion who has done next to nothing since that win. HyuN is a simple weekend warrior, good but not great amongst Koreans. 95% sure the Koreans would make it out of that group despite those Koreans being amongst the weaker ones. Again, Everyone in premier is better than me, but if you want to compare progamers with the majority of players, then that is an insult to both the progamers and the masses.
On February 20 2015 10:14 geokilla wrote: Unfortunately I completely agree with this. Even if foreigners make it to Blizzcon or compete against good Koreans in weekend tournaments, the majority of them don't stand a chance. Getting WCS Premier Round of 4 will mean nothing if they can't beat someone like Parting or ForGG.
you just grouped ForGG with PartinG >_>
Yeah I don't know why I said Parting. I was thinking of your average Korean. Should have said Trap or B4 instead I guess? Honestly it's going to be hard to compare players right now given so little weekend tournaments happened in 2015 so far.
Answer this though, is it fair to see players like Bunny or Mana at Blizzcon when we can have Maru, or Parting instead? Not hating on anyone but to me, Blizzcon is for the best of the best. The way WCS is done this year almost certainly won't allow that.
Why do you think that? Koreans now have two leagues which give wcs points and foreigners only have one instead of two and there are still some koreans in wcs.
On February 20 2015 10:14 geokilla wrote: Unfortunately I completely agree with this. Even if foreigners make it to Blizzcon or compete against good Koreans in weekend tournaments, the majority of them don't stand a chance. Getting WCS Premier Round of 4 will mean nothing if they can't beat someone like Parting or ForGG.
you just grouped ForGG with PartinG >_>
Answer this though, is it fair to see players like Bunny or Mana at Blizzcon when we can have Maru, or Parting instead? Not hating on anyone but to me, Blizzcon is for the best of the best. The way WCS is done this year almost certainly won't allow that.
It's fair in a random person's definition of fair, which is based on results. It is unfair in a definition of fair based on merit. But let's go to the end of that definition. Let's say we're using "merit" as the qualifier for Blizzcon. A player qualifies to the Ro8 of GSL by beating two extremely good players in long, drawn-out games where a lot of multitask and good play are involved. Let's say in that same Ro8 there's a guy who is there because he cheesed and the other player, despite being in a winning position, made an incredibly large mistake. Should we give them a different rating in that ideal WCS system because one of them is more deserving than the other? How do you grade that kind of stuff, is there a ladder somewhere? The majority of players will tell you that macro players are more deserving than cheesers, how do you account for that? Does being entertaining count as merit?
Merit is a fickle thing, I'm glad we're using the more stable "results" category.
On February 20 2015 10:14 geokilla wrote: Unfortunately I completely agree with this. Even if foreigners make it to Blizzcon or compete against good Koreans in weekend tournaments, the majority of them don't stand a chance. Getting WCS Premier Round of 4 will mean nothing if they can't beat someone like Parting or ForGG.
you just grouped ForGG with PartinG >_>
Yeah I don't know why I said Parting. I was thinking of your average Korean. Should have said Trap or B4 instead I guess? Honestly it's going to be hard to compare players right now given so little weekend tournaments happened in 2015 so far.
Answer this though, is it fair to see players like Bunny or Mana at Blizzcon when we can have Maru, or Parting instead? Not hating on anyone but to me, Blizzcon is for the best of the best. The way WCS is done this year almost certainly won't allow that.
Why do you think that? Koreans now have two leagues which give wcs points and foreigners only have one instead of two and there are still some koreans in wcs.
i dunno kev, we had a lot of people in both leagues, and a lot more in neither
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
I was under the impression that the Koreans are by far the most hard-working, granted they are in a more suitable atmosphere but still, they are hardworking, its why HuK was so good in 2011, foreigners don't want to put in the effort, hence all the bitching for region lock and retirement till legacy
On February 20 2015 10:14 geokilla wrote: Unfortunately I completely agree with this. Even if foreigners make it to Blizzcon or compete against good Koreans in weekend tournaments, the majority of them don't stand a chance. Getting WCS Premier Round of 4 will mean nothing if they can't beat someone like Parting or ForGG.
you just grouped ForGG with PartinG >_>
Yeah I don't know why I said Parting. I was thinking of your average Korean. Should have said Trap or B4 instead I guess? Honestly it's going to be hard to compare players right now given so little weekend tournaments happened in 2015 so far.
Answer this though, is it fair to see players like Bunny or Mana at Blizzcon when we can have Maru, or Parting instead? Not hating on anyone but to me, Blizzcon is for the best of the best. The way WCS is done this year almost certainly won't allow that.
Why do you think that? Koreans now have two leagues which give wcs points and foreigners only have one instead of two and there are still some koreans in wcs.
i dunno kev, we had a lot of people in both leagues, and a lot more in neither
Don't forget about Korean paydays foreign events for added points :p
iirc there's also 3 Kespa Cups on the horizon this year for Korea.
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
I was under the impression that the Koreans are by far the most hard-working, granted they are in a more suitable atmosphere but still, they are hardworking, its why HuK was so good in 2011, foreigners don't want to put in the effort, hence all the bitching for region lock and retirement till legacy
Before you continue this conversation, I feel the need to inform you that you are talking to someone who has argued that you wouldn't see the difference between a game of Rain and a game of a GM NA player if you didn't see the name of the player anywhere.
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
I was under the impression that the Koreans are by far the most hard-working, granted they are in a more suitable atmosphere but still, they are hardworking, its why HuK was so good in 2011, foreigners don't want to put in the effort, hence all the bitching for region lock and retirement till legacy
Funny, I don't recall Huk bring Korean. It essentially proves my point: It's not the player winning, it's their system. As for "wanting to put in the effort", the effort of what? Trying to replicate the success of Koreans without any of the surroundings to make it happen? It's not like everyone has the luxury of taking the risk of uprooting their lives and moving to Korea and hoping it works out (see: State).
On February 20 2015 11:02 Musicus wrote: A 16 year old kid can be a good basketball player in his high school league. It's not wrong to call him that, since he is one of the best in his league and shows a great performance. Nobody will think calling him good means that he can beat NBA players.
If the casters say something like "best of the world" or "greatest of all time" I tend to agree with you. But saying you can't call WCS Premiere League players good is ridiculous. Every GM player is good. WCS Premiere League players are extremely good.
I will give you a cricket example..because you know its in my name. In international cricket, there tends to be an issue in some countries, where certain players are given multiple chances to do well in the team due to political leverage despite there being multiple far more talented players that are not given the chance to play. These players are "good" because they perform well against other players within their own country, yet when they reach the international stage their mediocrity becomes clear. Yet they are referred to as good when they clearly aren't, yet they are better than almost all cricket followers right? My point is, you shouldn't kid yourself and call them good, TaeJa, yes he is good, Life, yes he is good, Pig? No offense to the guy, but he isnt on the same league. Unless you want to offer the argument that JimRising and Capoch are as decent or near as, as Koreans, then I fail to see how they can be good, because we ARE comparing them to the rest of the world. This isnt High School Basketball, this is the world stage, I thought that was the purpose of your argument, otherwise you are admitting my point that they are good for their level, but they are not on the same level as the koreans, hence they aren't good.
But you act as if when ToD says "mana played good" in WCS, he thinks "wow Mana played just like Rain". Nobody thinks that. You are arguing against misconceptions that don't exist.
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
I was under the impression that the Koreans are by far the most hard-working, granted they are in a more suitable atmosphere but still, they are hardworking, its why HuK was so good in 2011, foreigners don't want to put in the effort, hence all the bitching for region lock and retirement till legacy
Funny, I don't recall Huk bring Korean. It essentially proves my point: It's not the player winning, it's their system. As for "wanting to put in the effort", the effort of what? Trying to replicate the success of Koreans without any of the surroundings to make it happen? It's not like everyone has the luxury of taking the risk of uprooting their lives and moving to Korea and hoping it works out (see: State).
my point was that he was successful because he was willing to put in the effort necessary to do so, same with the Koreans, unless you are trying to tell me that South Koreans have genetic advantages then I don't see your point. Plus, it still doesn't justify the bitching(in regards to region lock) nor calling the clearly inferior foreigners good.
On February 20 2015 12:35 Nebuchad wrote: But you act as if when ToD says "mana played good" in WCS, he thinks "wow Mana played just like Rain". Nobody thinks that. You are arguing against misconceptions that don't exist.
Again, unless you are willing to admit that "mana played good" because he was playing against a lower level than the best of the best, and are willing to admit that there is a clear distinction in skill between progamers and that to call some players good, in compared to others ridiculous, I don't see what your argument is. I will admit that MaNa played well today in WCS compared to the other players he faced in his WCS group . My argument is to keep perspective in mind. My argument is that they are not good, because I am comparing them to the Koreans which is what they should be compared to. Why? Because at the end of the day, there will be better players that won't be able to go to Blizzcon because people want to act childish and say "MaNa played good" and saying otherwise is offensive.
EDIT: let me put it this way, It should go without saying that I think Mana is good, in the sense that he is far better than me. You should be able to assume that, now that we can assume that, I am making the argument he is not good because he is not as good as the Koreans, and yes I should be able to make that statement because these are Professional Players they are where they are because they are supposed to be the best. If criticizing them by comparing them to each other is unacceptable, then we have a problem.
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
I was under the impression that the Koreans are by far the most hard-working, granted they are in a more suitable atmosphere but still, they are hardworking, its why HuK was so good in 2011, foreigners don't want to put in the effort, hence all the bitching for region lock and retirement till legacy
Funny, I don't recall Huk bring Korean. It essentially proves my point: It's not the player winning, it's their system. As for "wanting to put in the effort", the effort of what? Trying to replicate the success of Koreans without any of the surroundings to make it happen? It's not like everyone has the luxury of taking the risk of uprooting their lives and moving to Korea and hoping it works out (see: State).
my point was that he was successful because he was willing to put in the effort necessary to do so, same with the Koreans, unless you are trying to tell me that South Koreans have genetic advantages then I don't see your point. Plus, it still doesn't justify the bitching(in regards to region lock) nor calling the clearly inferior foreigners good.
The bolded portion is the part that simply continues to be a pervasive myth throughout SC2 - Koreans are "simply better". If any other country had a training environment half as good as Korea's, then judging by the strides foreigners have already made, the use of the name "Global Starcraft League" for a tournament held entirely offline in a single country would be considered farcical.
As for Huk "putting in the effort", not everyone has the capability to simply drop everything and move to Korea without any guarantee that they'll succeed against the people who've only ever had Korean training. That kind of a commitment, assuming a team house will even take you in, isn't feasible for the vast majority of human beings without a guarantee of ROI.
it really just depends how you define "good". In what % of the best (here: progamers) do you have to be to be called good? How many sc2 progamers do we have right now?
On February 20 2015 12:35 Nebuchad wrote: But you act as if when ToD says "mana played good" in WCS, he thinks "wow Mana played just like Rain". Nobody thinks that. You are arguing against misconceptions that don't exist.
Again, unless you are willing to admit that "mana played good" because he was playing against a lower level than the best of the best, and are willing to admit that there is a clear distinction in skill between progamers and that to call some players good, in compared to others ridiculous, I don't see what your argument is. I will admit that MaNa played well today in WCS compared to the other players he faced in his WCS group . My argument is to keep perspective in mind. My argument is that they are not good, because I am comparing them to the Koreans which is what they should be compared to. Why? Because at the end of the day, there will be better players that won't be able to go to Blizzcon because people want to act childish and say "MaNa played good" and saying otherwise is offensive.
You're not making a new point, you're just developping the misconception that you pretend we have. So my answer is the same: we do not have it. We didn't tune in tonight to watch Mana vs Life. If we say he played well tonight, we don't do it because we ignore that he isn't playing against Life. We realize that.
On top of that, you argue as if there was a system in which the 16 "most deserving" players reach Blizzcon. That system doesn't exist, unless you can present me with a way to judge "merit" instead of results.
Imagine a world where one year the NBA decided to cancel "playoffs" as they are currently known and instead gave out some of the spots (I don't follow basketball but I'm going to imagine playoffs are the top 8 teams here) to the top highschool and college teams. These younger teams would not only get completely owned but fans of the teams that would have made it in to playoffs would be furious that their team's spot was taken by a team with 0 chance of taking the title.
Now imagine calling that same 16 year old highschool player "really good" when you know he's going to be compared to NBA players in the near future and be utterly demolished
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
I was under the impression that the Koreans are by far the most hard-working, granted they are in a more suitable atmosphere but still, they are hardworking, its why HuK was so good in 2011, foreigners don't want to put in the effort, hence all the bitching for region lock and retirement till legacy
Funny, I don't recall Huk bring Korean. It essentially proves my point: It's not the player winning, it's their system. As for "wanting to put in the effort", the effort of what? Trying to replicate the success of Koreans without any of the surroundings to make it happen? It's not like everyone has the luxury of taking the risk of uprooting their lives and moving to Korea and hoping it works out (see: State).
my point was that he was successful because he was willing to put in the effort necessary to do so, same with the Koreans, unless you are trying to tell me that South Koreans have genetic advantages then I don't see your point. Plus, it still doesn't justify the bitching(in regards to region lock) nor calling the clearly inferior foreigners good.
The bolded portion is the part that simply continues to be a pervasive myth throughout SC2 - Koreans are "simply better". If any other country had a training environment half as good as Korea's, then judging by the strides foreigners have already made, the use of the name "Global Starcraft League" for a tournament held entirely offline in a single country would be considered farcical.
As for Huk "putting in the effort", not everyone has the capability to simply drop everything and move to Korea without any guarantee that they'll succeed against the people who've only ever had Korean training. That kind of a commitment, assuming a team house will even take you in, isn't feasible for the vast majority of human beings without a guarantee of ROI.
I will ask you this, what is the point of the professional scene? Is it to watch as the best of the best clash in battle wits and speed that has been produced by passion for a video game? Or is it to suck all players dicks if they get into premier? Quite honestly, there is no way you can make the argument that watching theStC Snute ViBe and theognis can compare with watching DongRaeGu Polt Rain Taeja. I am not saying that foreigners should be shunned because they are not koreans, but they shouldnt be given undeserved praise. In MOST cases unless I am forgetting something, unless you won a premier tournament or showed tremendous talent, can you really be praised? Sure MaNa and Bunny made it into premier, so did 30 other players, and the 48 players in the Korean leagues are still better, so why praise them? Grow up, if MaNa can win WCS, and beat some of the koreans in the process, hell yes he is good. If he goes deep, then I will say he showed promise, but again that is only when compared with everyone else in WCS, the players in Korea are still at a higher level
Why should I hold a player in lesser regard, because his opposition isn't as good in one of the league he plays in? And I'm not sure why you care that people hold them in high regard. Most of the viewer base considers the level of play of the Korean scene as much higher than that of the foreign scene, and rightly so, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't appreciate foreign player's worth for what they are.
Again, what does "good" mean in the context of progamers? Top 100? Top 50? How many progamers do we even have right now in sc2?
On February 20 2015 13:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Why should I hold a player in lesser regard, because his opposition isn't as good in one of the league he plays in? And I'm not sure why you care that people hold them in high regard. Most of the viewer base considers the level of play of the Korean scene as much higher than that of the foreign scene, and rightly so, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't appreciate foreign player's worth for what they are.
Ok to make an extreme example. Some casters say foreigner X is one of the best players in the world. I mean sure, if we look at all the sc2 players, from bronze to gm, YES then this is correct. But that's kinda ridiculous, isn't it? "worlds best" surely doesn't mean top 100 in a game where not even 1000 professional players exist. The same is true for "good", obviously to a lesser extent here. We just have to define what "good" means now.
Why is it important? To not lose the meaning and context of these phrases. i don't wanna hear caster X tell me that foreigner Y is one of the very best. I mean i know that it's bs, but what about someone who doesn't watch sc2 regularly? It destroys storylines and thus excitement.
Seeing how this season is working, actually like the changes. We'll see more as the resets of all the leagues and requalification start to settle down, but already it's pretty apparent.
There is much more South Korean content, and both Starleagues are pretty much universally accepted as the true prestigious leagues. Running alongside Proleague there's a consistent stream of the BEST Starcraft there is.
Outside of Korea, the foreign players have a tournament that they can push for that is an incentive for PURELY competitive-focused play. Koreans who want to live outside of Korea for their own reasons whatever those may be can also compete, and their presence in that scene will drive up the skill. Many especially EU pros are on record as saying that the guys like forGG who play and live in their region are something they welcome, as they get better practice to try and bridge the gap.
Remember how MLG started to fly out Koreans on their own dime, whereas I recall one where White-Ra went something like 22-0 through an Open Bracket and lost to Select or somebody and literally made pretty much no money?
It's an extreme example, but there's an infrastructure problem at hand. It's why so many foreign players, even good ones diligently stream, show up on talk shows and do other things like coaching to fund their lives. This all naturally cuts in to their practice, it just naturally will. You are trying to bridge a gap to Koreans with their well-noted practice regimes while having to potentially earn revenue at the same time, vs worse quality practice partners.
I'm thinking for the long-term health of the game, this current setup is potentially good. Koreans have more Korean tournaments, so the high density of talent in that region gets more opportunities, it's about time. There is MORE Korean content for those concerned about the quality of play above all else,
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
I was under the impression that the Koreans are by far the most hard-working, granted they are in a more suitable atmosphere but still, they are hardworking, its why HuK was so good in 2011, foreigners don't want to put in the effort, hence all the bitching for region lock and retirement till legacy
Funny, I don't recall Huk bring Korean. It essentially proves my point: It's not the player winning, it's their system. As for "wanting to put in the effort", the effort of what? Trying to replicate the success of Koreans without any of the surroundings to make it happen? It's not like everyone has the luxury of taking the risk of uprooting their lives and moving to Korea and hoping it works out (see: State).
my point was that he was successful because he was willing to put in the effort necessary to do so, same with the Koreans, unless you are trying to tell me that South Koreans have genetic advantages then I don't see your point. Plus, it still doesn't justify the bitching(in regards to region lock) nor calling the clearly inferior foreigners good.
The bolded portion is the part that simply continues to be a pervasive myth throughout SC2 - Koreans are "simply better". If any other country had a training environment half as good as Korea's, then judging by the strides foreigners have already made, the use of the name "Global Starcraft League" for a tournament held entirely offline in a single country would be considered farcical.
As for Huk "putting in the effort", not everyone has the capability to simply drop everything and move to Korea without any guarantee that they'll succeed against the people who've only ever had Korean training. That kind of a commitment, assuming a team house will even take you in, isn't feasible for the vast majority of human beings without a guarantee of ROI.
I will ask you this, what is the point of the professional scene? Is it to watch as the best of the best clash in battle wits and speed that has been produced by passion for a video game? Or is it to suck all players dicks if they get into premier? Quite honestly, there is no way you can make the argument that watching theStC Snute ViBe and theognis can compare with watching DongRaeGu Polt Rain Taeja. I am not saying that foreigners should be shunned because they are not koreans, but they shouldnt be given undeserved praise. In MOST cases unless I am forgetting something, unless you won a premier tournament or showed tremendous talent, can you really be praised? Sure MaNa and Bunny made it into premier, so did 30 other players, and the 48 players in the Korean leagues are still better, so why praise them? Grow up, if MaNa can win WCS, and beat some of the koreans in the process, hell yes he is good. If he goes deep, then I will say he showed promise, but again that is only when compared with everyone else in WCS, the players in Korea are still at a higher level
Now you're on a different subject - individual praise of players. For that, I simply ask you what purpose saying "stop liking things I don't like" serves. All that does is foster negativity and discourage involvement in the scene.
This entire thread is maddening as well. I do wish casters especially would be more critical of players, albeit I really think it's natural given the tight-knit nature of the scene and how many personally know each other.
Some people are going around making out as if though that saying 'Mana played well today' = 'Mana is so fucking good, damn Zest better watch out', something that I really don't see much evidence of.
We'll see whether a wcs premier player is good or not compared to the koreans. I think this is natural selection to see who is our top 4 "foreign hopes," who would hopefully be on a level to be able to beat someone like zest in a series. And the ro4 players will be players such as snute and naniwa, who can put up a good fight, if not win, against top koreans like herO.
so of course the general net of players in premier, or challenger, will not be quality players, but the top of premier will def be strong.
On February 20 2015 13:30 Deathstar wrote: We'll see whether a wcs premier player is good or not compared to the koreans. I think this is natural selection to see who is our top 4 "foreign hopes," who would hopefully be on a level to be able to beat someone like zest in a series. And the ro4 players will be players such as snute and naniwa, who can put up a good fight, if not win, against top koreans like herO.
so of course the general net of players in premier, or challenger, will not be quality players, but the top of premier will def be strong.
yes ofc the top 4 will be strong, top 4 will be korean :D (not this season, but there still is JD and Stardust (i think) who will compete in wcs as well)
Its kind of funny because Mana and Bunny just beat someone with the "Korean flag" to get out of their group. This type of thinking, that foreigners are crap and shouldn't even play the game, will destroy sc2 as a competitive game. Its hard for the foreigner scene to grow, when there's people who actively bash them. What happened to watching sc2 because you love the game?
2011 => "The competition thus far has been a farce" has been proven wrong many times again and again. 2015 => "WCS Premier players cannot be considered good" will be proven wrong many times again and again.
Everything in this prompt is unproductive to argue about, and everything in this thread is unhealthy to even read. I highly urge people not to feed this particular fire.
This is too complex an issue to simply write it off the way the OP has. Sure, the immediate result might be 'a fun foreign event' later followed by these same foreigners getting trounced by Koreans later on but think about the big picture. We might see a revival in the NA scene because there will now be a greater incentive both in exposure and money for them. Obviously, the old system didn't necessarily prevent this but it certainly will feel more attainable now. A few years down the road and the foreign WCS competition could be quite fierce. Even though most of my favorite players are Korean (Parting, Bomber, Taeja) I do miss the days where we had multiple foreign hopes. It just added some extra hype and if this new WCS system can help do that then I think it will be worth the wait.
On February 20 2015 15:00 HellHound wrote: Doesn't that demented semantical logic leave us with only 5-10 players we can actually call good?
If you haven't won the GSL in the past 2 seasons, or if you lose 2-3 games of proleague, you are a bad player. Given that there are people out there that can beat you.
Seriously though, I found the WCS group (c) today to be very entertaining and well played. Even though none of the players have ever won a GSL or beat Life 3X in a row.
On February 20 2015 11:24 pure.Wasted wrote: Five years after the game came out, we're still stuck with "AMAZING STORMS!!!"
Calling TLO a great player doesn't even register as a blip on the radar of "goofy and not entirely accurate things casters say all the time" by comparison.
Casters wanna hype. It'd be pretty boring to watch if they were like: 'Wow TLO is playing decently well against another okay player because neither are Korean. Good for TLO. He's so average.'
Also, just saying. I'd love to see you land a single storm against a player like INnoVation. When Protoss can hit a good storm on a good Terran player, it really is a good storm.
It's all for casual appeal. Truthfully, if you need to listen to the commentators to have a good understanding of what's going on, then foreigners may as well be "outstanding". It doesn't really matter if it's true or not.
"Borderline offensive" -- really? You are clearly knowledgeable enough to know that Koreans are better, so you can safely disregard the caster hype. I'm well aware that all of the players in WCS Global (EU+AM) are shit compared to Innovation, Life, Rain, etc. so I could care less what some caster says.
And why would any caster ever belittle the players in their tournament, either? Just so that they can give some no-name B-tier Koreans some credit? If anything, it's people's obsession with foreigners that you should be mad about. I personally care very little about what nationality or country of origin a player is. I care way more about how good they are. So, as a result, I don't care much for foreign hopes and my favorite players are a bunch of Koreans. Many viewers DO care about nationality, and like the idea of foreigners being good, so it only makes sense that a tournament MADE for foreigners would hype up the foreigners........
Judging from OP's past post-history, it is not unlikely that he's just a troll. But that's okay.
That's why I am not watching WCS EU/NA/whatever, I even don't know how they call it. I just watch Korea, because in WCS for foreigners I don't see what I want to see ^_^ I watched WCS EU/NA only because of the Koreans there, I still remember watching full foreigner ro32 WCS EU after watching GSL ro16. That difference was insane and I don't want to see it again.
Also Kaelaris/Tod doesn't help either. I fear that I will have to hear their casting, just no.
On February 20 2015 12:51 Fecalfeast wrote: To add to what Cricketer is saying:
Imagine a world where one year the NBA decided to cancel "playoffs" as they are currently known and instead gave out some of the spots (I don't follow basketball but I'm going to imagine playoffs are the top 8 teams here) to the top highschool and college teams. These younger teams would not only get completely owned but fans of the teams that would have made it in to playoffs would be furious that their team's spot was taken by a team with 0 chance of taking the title.
Now imagine calling that same 16 year old highschool player "really good" when you know he's going to be compared to NBA players in the near future and be utterly demolished
Except the WCS system isn't doing that. We aren't taking the best WCS player and putting him in the GSL final. The GSL (or the S2SL) is the best league in the world. The GSL's finals are like the NBA finals. The GSL is almost exclusive to Koreans as it would take a massive commitment just to participate as a foreigner whereas any good Korean ladder player can go down to the GSL studios during the qualifiers. If you want to watch the best of the best, watch the GSL.
Blizzcon is more like the Olympics. The prestige of the Olympics is NOT that it's the best competition in the world. The prestige is that you get to put a whole variety of people from all over the world on the big stage and show who's best. In many sports, that means some actual best players in the world (top 10) get eliminated at their national qualifier and don't get to compete. Blizzcon will still be fun for what it is, just like the Olympics. And any top 10 Korean should still make it if he proves it through results. It's the guys 11-16 that may miss out.
The new WCS system actually looks good. It provides an incentive to get good as a foreigner because the peak is more obtainable. It allows infrastructure to be built by giving lowly foreigners a little exposure on a big stage (where sponsors notice them). That could someday lead to foreigners having legitimate team houses centered on a studio for a real team league. In the meantime, WCS will be like Major League Soccer or a Russian Basketball League. They're good and entertaining in their own way, but they're not the absolute best.
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
What study states foreigners work twice as hard as Koreans?
you know what got me into Starcraft? Watching European Broodwar tournaments did. With players like Mondragon, White-Ra, Infernal, Mistrzzz, Dreiven, etc. Did I watch players as skilled as their Korean counterparts? Most likely not. But did I have a good time? Most definitely yes. I've had a very good time watching group C yesterday. Especially Mana's cheeky builds were really entertaining. I honestly don't give a shit about who is playing, what I want to see are good games. And NA / EU pro gamers are definitely capable of producing very entertaining material. Hell, I might have been trolled by the OP, but who cares.
Long live TLO, optimizer of hotkey setups and user of questionable strategies. May he always build the nydus instead of 10 more roaches.
So by the OP's logic. Flash isn't "good" because he lost all but one game in PL this season. And Solar isn't "Good" cause he could never win an ace match
I don't follow that, hell I got into watching competitive SC2 watching Moonglade win IEM V: SEA . Was that on a level with Koreans? Probably not. Did I care? No. Some of the most fun I've had were watching the old European ShoutCraft Invitations with TB and Apollo casting, no Koreans to be seen.
Does it really matter if they're not on a level with the top Koreans? Who is?
as BS and retarded as the topic raised in the OP, one issue that is somewhat true is the casters overhype for what we need to consider amazing move. I would appreciate deeper analysis of what and when a player did, that was indeed brilliant. Example would be parting's move and blink out of the widow mine, example would not be reaper killing a drone.
In America, there are alot of "good", "outstanding or "amazing" soccer teams. However, this is not the case because we know that these teams would most likely not have the same success if they had to compete against teams wielding the european(?) flag.
In Korea, there are alot of "good", "outstanding or "amazing" CS:GO teams. However, this is not the case because we know that these teams would most likely not have the same success if they had to compete against teams wielding the Swedish flag.
In Europe, there are alot of "good", "outstanding or "amazing" ice hockey teams. However, this is not the case because we know that these teams would most likely not have the same success if they had to compete against teams wielding the American or Canadian flag.
In Africa, there are alot of "good", "outstanding or "amazing" drug cartels. However, this is not the case because we know that these cartels would most likely not have the same success if they had to compete against cartels wielding the Mexican flag.
Eventhough Thorin may be right. The argument is baseless and useless. Since you can put this theory on any sport, any genre, any country.
Implying that the players in Europe and America "aren't good" is absolutely silly. They are not the best in the world, but the top echelon of players outside Korea have shown that they can on occasion compete with low- to middle-tier Korean players, and even disregarding that you need to consider that they are in the top .1% of players globally. You could chalk individual wins against Korean players up to variance, but variance only gets you so far - you need to be good to have a chance. You can apply individual standards as to what "top-tier" means, but if you want to make the argument that only <50 players in the world are "good", you may be a bit elitist.
On February 20 2015 18:40 Zealously wrote: Implying that the players in Europe and America "aren't good" is absolutely silly. They are not the best in the world, but the top echelon of players outside Korea have shown that they can on occasion compete with low- to middle-tier Korean players, and even disregarding that you need to consider that they are in the top .1% of players globally. You could chalk individual wins against Korean players up to variance, but variance only gets you so far - you need to be good to have a chance. You can apply individual standards as to what "top-tier" means, but if you want to make the argument that only <50 players in the world are "good", you may be a bit elitist.
It depends on the scale. If you consider all master players and above, TLO is astonishing. If you take all the pro players, TLO is good. If you take all the good players, TLO is OK, bellow average. If you take top50, TLO may not be there.
And I am not saying TLO is bad player, he's one of the best in Europe. Taking Thoorin's measurement, he's elite player in Europe, probably top5, top10 for sure. But is he top50 all over the world? Maybe?
And this is what is this all about. Good is just bad scaling word. If TLO is good, what is Snute? What is Solar? What is soO? What is Life? I mean, how do you want to scale it, TLO is good, Snute is better, Solar is better-than-Snute but worse-than-soO and soO is better-than-Snute but a-little-bit-worse-than-Life(nowadays) and Life is the best? Using good for all the players removes measurement, that's how I understand it.
And I am not saying any pro player is bad player. TLO is one of my favorite players there with Catz. But when their material is played by soO who is superior player, OH MY GOD! It's just better And I am telling this even though one of my best PvZ games to watch is Catz winning with airtoss playing as Zerg
It's not like TLO and Mana have ever beaten top tier koreans and placed high in koreans-populated tournaments... Right? Of course they would not win gsl if they were to comete in korea, but saying they are good, awesome, great players doesn't necessarily mean that they are the best players, the TaeJa and Life who win dozen of tournaments.
We all no that all the foreigner can easly lose to a low-mid tier corean, and thats it. But the foreigner scene needs to be supported to have an alive game. I prefer the korean scene and I don't miss anything about it, but lot of people prefer to watch entertaining tournaments instead of competitive tournaments.
If you think that Americans call a corean "Captain America" you can easly think how good are the foreigners LOL
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
I was under the impression that the Koreans are by far the most hard-working, granted they are in a more suitable atmosphere but still, they are hardworking, its why HuK was so good in 2011, foreigners don't want to put in the effort, hence all the bitching for region lock and retirement till legacy
Before you continue this conversation, I feel the need to inform you that you are talking to someone who has argued that you wouldn't see the difference between a game of Rain and a game of a GM NA player if you didn't see the name of the player anywhere.
The NA GM superior tools should give him an edge reaction wise since he doesn't need to scout to know what's going on
I am quite surprised that this thread is still open and quite surprised that he doesnt include GSL. I am sure that nobody expected (including Korean TL Users) that MMA and MC did qualify for GSL Season 1 and even better.
Some of those foreigners have the ability to beat Koreans (see Snute), another one was back to back in the ro8 of the GSL Code S (going head to head with the very best at that time). They are good players, not perfect at all, but spending every each day 10 hours a day playing this game, watching VODs and then not be called good is a ridiculous demand. I don't think any Korean pro should or will take it as "borderline offensive" if casters call european or na players good. what you wrote is way more offensive to foreign players tbh.
The whole topic doesn't lead into anything imo, and like some others I am quite surprised that this thread is still open, could become very toxic very fast.
We may not have the same playing level in Premier League and Korea, but don't forget Korea was given a second huge tourament (Starleague) that compensates this level of "unfairness" betwen the regions. I personally prefer this WCS 2015 system a lot more than the system of last year. It's a good balance between the 2012 and 2013/2014 system.
On February 20 2015 14:31 OtherWorld wrote: 2011 => "The competition thus far has been a farce" has been proven wrong many times again and again. 2015 => "WCS Premier players cannot be considered good" will be proven wrong many times again and again.
ForGG, Hydra, Polt and Snute are legit (and I hope it the top 4, the level would be pretty cool + Snute could go all the way which would be an awesome storyline and a well deserved win). Naniwa has proven that he has what he takes to compete against the best. For the rest... they'll get stomp by any Code S player as usual.
The sad part is they fucked up the EU ladder which is insanely weaker than last year since we lost a ton of good koreans...
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
Saying that foreign pros work harder than Korean pros and that Korean pros don't work actually work is downright disrespectful to Korean pros...
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
Saying that foreign pros work harder than Korean pros and that Korean pros don't work actually work is downright disrespectful to Korean pros...
NA pro work so hard you know, that's why they'll crowd the WCS ro16!
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL."
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist.
Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential?
ITT Koreans don't actually work...
If you get to contend for a place in a league considered the gold standard of the world because of where you were born and where you live, getting a chance to achieve your full potential due to that while the few full-time foreigners have to work twice as hard to make half the progress, then no, "Korean Pros Cannot Be Considered Hard-Working".
Saying that foreign pros work harder than Korean pros and that Korean pros don't work actually work is downright disrespectful to Korean pros...
NA pro work so hard you know, that's why they'll crowd the WCS ro16!
Its so simple. Its a matter of relativity. One huge downside of the internet in general is, that everything is always compared with the entire world. When i went to LANs in the pre-2000 there was a guy who figured out on his own that Reaver drops are super good. He won like every local event for 2 years and i thought this guy was the tits. Everyone i knew would call him an "awesome" broodwar player. Of course he would have been trash compared to boxer or whatever, but back then no one knew.
Who cares if its a game between scrub-A and scrub-B. As long as the match has me on the edge of my seat, hell yeah i call it an awesome match. What a pointless discussion...
Another standard Thorin video - using a lot of words and idiotic examples and in the process actually state nothing interesting or new but just arguing semantics.
There's a reason we see no Thorin in shows like Remax or TLG, everytime he does, he gets called out on his bullshit. IIRC, he even ragequit vs Destiny once.
Everybody can make a video on youtube, yell a lot, lalala. Once it comes to an actual argument, there's nothing left of him.
On February 20 2015 21:00 Wombat_NI wrote: I actually agree with his video, or at least large parts of it. I just don't think it really pertains to the SC2 scene for the most part.
No. He apparently doesn't know what relativity is. Obviously when someone says a play or player is "good" or "incredible", it's relative to the level of play he is supposed to display. When an average foreign player like PtitDrogo makes a good move during a Challenger match, it would obviously be a shit move compared to what a top Korean would do. But the casters or viewers aren't going to say "oh look, that move would have been shit in Code S. PartinG would have done much better than PtitDrogo here. This isn't good at all." ; they'll say that it's a good move because it's implied that it's a good move "relatively to what we could expect given the reputation of the player and the tourney he is playing in".
Definitely correct, I'm very much in the 'foreigners are actually good' camp. I do think casters could do a better job in analysis of players relative strength and weaknesses though.
Most casts are basically, both these guys are good, one is weird as fuck (if it's say Has), and then sort of explain the builds and choices they're making it.
I'd love it if there were more points of distinction made just in terms of relative strengths. It does happen sometimes but not always. For example, Happy is a fantastic player mechanically, but maybe not the best at planning builds for a series. His opponent TLO isn't as strong mechanically, but has a range of clever builds and is very tactically intelligent.
My bone of contention is not so much about the lack of relativist context, but more there's not enough on WHY people are good, but also what they suck at in casts. As I said earlier it's probably due to many of the casters having relationships with players and being loathe to be too critical, which is understandable.
On February 20 2015 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Definitely correct, I'm very much in the 'foreigners are actually good' camp. I do think casters could do a better job in analysis of players relative strength and weaknesses though.
Most casts are basically, both these guys are good, one is weird as fuck (if it's say Has), and then sort of explain the builds and choices they're making it.
I'd love it if there were more points of distinction made just in terms of relative strengths. It does happen sometimes but not always. For example, Happy is a fantastic player mechanically, but maybe not the best at planning builds for a series. His opponent TLO isn't as strong mechanically, but has a range of clever builds and is very tactically intelligent.
My bone of contention is not so much about the lack of relativist context, but more there's not enough on WHY people are good, but also what they suck at in casts. As I said earlier it's probably due to many of the casters having relationships with players and being loathe to be too critical, which is understandable.
Gotta watch the french cast :D we kinda try to present the players as they are (and none except bogus is perfect :p) with their strenght, weaknesses, playstyle etc
I am pleased as punch with some of my moves in ladder matches, utterly brilliant and genius moves really. And then I match up vs a proper diamond player and realize that those moves merely keep me in the game, and proceed to fall apart completely whenever I do some of my regular gold/plat moronic stuff.
Let's continue calling foreigners good and great and superb and whatever. There will always be some inherent uncertainty in even those assessments vs other foreigners, and we can hope they turn out to have a chance vs even the half decent korean ûbergods.
Either way it's been fun to see recently how several early sc2 koreans still seem to be able to tango with the kespa freaks. Pfft for elephants, the competition was never a COMPLETE joke.
On February 20 2015 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Definitely correct, I'm very much in the 'foreigners are actually good' camp. I do think casters could do a better job in analysis of players relative strength and weaknesses though.
Most casts are basically, both these guys are good, one is weird as fuck (if it's say Has), and then sort of explain the builds and choices they're making it.
I'd love it if there were more points of distinction made just in terms of relative strengths. It does happen sometimes but not always. For example, Happy is a fantastic player mechanically, but maybe not the best at planning builds for a series. His opponent TLO isn't as strong mechanically, but has a range of clever builds and is very tactically intelligent.
My bone of contention is not so much about the lack of relativist context, but more there's not enough on WHY people are good, but also what they suck at in casts. As I said earlier it's probably due to many of the casters having relationships with players and being loathe to be too critical, which is understandable.
Gotta watch the french cast :D we kinda try to present the players as they are (and none except bogus is perfect :p) with their strenght, weaknesses, playstyle etc
You also had Funka going on for 2 and a half hours about how Soulkey made 4 GSL finals and no one correcting him (no, I haven't forgotten :p)
On February 20 2015 10:42 Meatex wrote: well i half way typed up a logical argument with reasons and then remembered this is the internet so there is absolutely no point to doing so. Concept behind this thread is wrong and if OP wants to watch top koreans battle it out there is GSL and pro league for exactly that and if they hate casters saying foreigners are good then don't watch. Why do you even want to watch players that you think are only okay at best? That makes no logical sense
On February 20 2015 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Definitely correct, I'm very much in the 'foreigners are actually good' camp. I do think casters could do a better job in analysis of players relative strength and weaknesses though.
Most casts are basically, both these guys are good, one is weird as fuck (if it's say Has), and then sort of explain the builds and choices they're making it.
I'd love it if there were more points of distinction made just in terms of relative strengths. It does happen sometimes but not always. For example, Happy is a fantastic player mechanically, but maybe not the best at planning builds for a series. His opponent TLO isn't as strong mechanically, but has a range of clever builds and is very tactically intelligent.
My bone of contention is not so much about the lack of relativist context, but more there's not enough on WHY people are good, but also what they suck at in casts. As I said earlier it's probably due to many of the casters having relationships with players and being loathe to be too critical, which is understandable.
Gotta watch the french cast :D we kinda try to present the players as they are (and none except bogus is perfect :p) with their strenght, weaknesses, playstyle etc
You also had Funka going on for 2 and a half hours about how Soulkey made 4 GSL finals and no one correcting him (no, I haven't forgotten :p)
Depends which perspective you take. WCS Premier players can be considered good. The absence of Koreans, means we don't have to call good players shit no more.
Those guys are maybe not exceptional by Korean standards, but they are amazingly good at this game and train hard to gain recognition. No one is trying to deny the competition is harder in Korea and nobody called TLO Life or Bunny INnoVatioN but the players in WCS deserve to be called great players.
usually i do not watch foreigners because my time is limited and I want to see the best play possible.
However yesterday in WCS i saw some nice decision making by the players. It was really good, but when I looked on the minimap and saw that the third isnt landed up at around 13 minutes while it has been ready for seven minutes i noticed that these players lack just the multitasking and refined play.
I see they know builds and do good attacks and timings, they are smart, but after the 10 minute mark the game is already one minute delayed from what we expect from korean standards.
2013 - We need locked regions so Foreign players have tournaments where they can compete and grow by themselves. 2015 - We need unlocked regions so Korean players can demolish what's left of the foreign scene and show who is the boss.
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are. It's not like people think WCS EU winner is at the same lvl than WCS KR level, both are good players, but definitly one is much better than the another. But i thought that was a given. If you don't want to watch WCS EU/NA, don't watch it. Other people might find it interesting (and viewer numbers agree with this).
And yes, they are good by my definition of what being good implies. Deal with it.
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are.
thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected
edit: though its better to see beloved foreigners than semi good (and faceless) koreans like pigbaby or byul who would also loose in their own country, but have by some reason the chance to come over for the top placements. Good lord, I am so happy that this is not possible any more. It was not like that the best koreans went over for the top8...
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are.
thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected
edit: though its better to see beloved foreigners than semi good (and faceless) koreans like pigbaby or byul who would also loose in their own country, but have by some reason the chance to come over for the top placements. Good lord, I am so happy that this is not possible any more
Except, no. They aren't. Literally everyone, even people who know nothing about StarCraft know about the "Koreans are really good at StarCraft" stereotype. There's no danger here, lmao.
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are.
thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected
edit: though its better to see beloved foreigners than semi good (and faceless) koreans like pigbaby or byul who would also loose in their own country, but have by some reason the chance to come over for the top placements. Good lord, I am so happy that this is not possible any more
Except, no. They aren't. Literally everyone, even people who know nothing about StarCraft know about the "Koreans are really good at StarCraft" stereotype. There's no danger here, lmao.
I basically want Apollo to say on any move a foreigner does: "Ok, look at this play, this is very good non-korean play. Look at this micro. Definatly, very well done for foreign standards. He doesnt have his third base up, which any decent korean would have had up running for three minutes but now he lands it, which is very good considering he is just a foreign player.."
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are.
thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected
??? This makes no sense to me.
When are Korean players disrespected ? Did the casters say "Wow, Zest or Rain would definitely have been too stubborn to pull out this move, what strategical thinking by MaNa" or "That baneling focus fire by Bunny was amazing, fortunately we have WCS to see those clutch micro moves we don't see in GSL or SS2L" ? No. They're even quite genuine about the players mistakes, for instance they made it quite clear that Bunny really misread the situation vs MaNa in the Overgrowth game.
I'm tired with people bashing foreigners without any consideration for the dedication they put into the game and their actual skill. If you weren't watching the games with that "those players do not compete in Korea therefore they must be God awful" flag you wouldn't say such bullshit. I watch both GSL/SS2L and WCS and you see abysmally dumb mistakes in Korea too. Koreans are better, yes. But WCS players are good too.
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are.
thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected
Who doesn't know that KR is SC2 masterrace ? That casual (whatever that word means) must be an hermit if he is watching esports and has never heard about KR as our goddamn Mecca.
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are.
thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected
edit: though its better to see beloved foreigners than semi good (and faceless) koreans like pigbaby or byul who would also loose in their own country, but have by some reason the chance to come over for the top placements. Good lord, I am so happy that this is not possible any more
Except, no. They aren't. Literally everyone, even people who know nothing about StarCraft know about the "Koreans are really good at StarCraft" stereotype. There's no danger here, lmao.
I basically want Apollo to say on any move a foreigner does: "Ok, look at this play, this is very good non-korean play. Look at this micro. Definatly, very well done for foreign standards. He doesnt have his third base up, which any decent korean would have had up running for three minutes but now he lands it, which is very good considering he is just a foreign player.."
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are.
thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected
??? This makes no sense to me.
When are Korean players disrespected ? Did the casters say "Wow, Zest or Rain would definitely have been too stubborn to pull out this move, what strategical thinking by MaNa" or "That baneling focus fire by Bunny was amazing, fortunately we have WCS to see those clutch micro moves we don't see in GSL or SS2L" ? No. They're even quite genuine about the players mistakes, for instance they made it quite clear that Bunny really misread the situation vs MaNa in the Overgrowth game.
I'm tired with people bashing foreigners without any consideration for the dedication they put into the game and their actual skill. If you weren't watching the games with that "those players do not compete in Korea therefore they must be God awful" flag you wouldn't say such bullshit. I watch both GSL/SS2L and WCS and you see abysmally dumb mistakes in Korea too. Koreans are better, yes. But WCS players are good too.
i respectfully disagree. Of course i am not bashing foreigners. I see the dedication they put into it and enjoy the games and fan hype. I just think casual viewers shouldnt be fooled.
The same shit was said about WCS EU and NA. And what now, WCS EU Champ has just crashed his GSL Ro16 Group with the GSL Champ, one other WCS EU champ is rocked his GSL32 Group and the last one brings decent results in SPL. Therefore the last runner-up is weekly feelded in SPL.
Whereas 4 times runner up and a 2014 GSL Champ are in Code B and one player called God has one of the worst SPL Stats ever.
When you watch national finals in maybe 100m running, you will say the runners are good. But still they are nowhere near the international elite, but they are above 99,9% of the runners in that nation. That makes em good.
There are reasons why there are the words good, better and best.
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are.
thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected
??? This makes no sense to me.
When are Korean players disrespected ? Did the casters say "Wow, Zest or Rain would definitely have been too stubborn to pull out this move, what strategical thinking by MaNa" or "That baneling focus fire by Bunny was amazing, fortunately we have WCS to see those clutch micro moves we don't see in GSL or SS2L" ? No. They're even quite genuine about the players mistakes, for instance they made it quite clear that Bunny really misread the situation vs MaNa in the Overgrowth game.
I'm tired with people bashing foreigners without any consideration for the dedication they put into the game and their actual skill. If you weren't watching the games with that "those players do not compete in Korea therefore they must be God awful" flag you wouldn't say such bullshit. I watch both GSL/SS2L and WCS and you see abysmally dumb mistakes in Korea too. Koreans are better, yes. But WCS players are good too.
i respectfully disagree. Of course i am not bashing foreigners. I see the dedication they put into it and enjoy the games and fan hype. I just think casual viewers shouldnt be fooled.
Casual viewers already know Korea is the Mecca of SC2. They don't need to be reminded it. And once again, you wildly overestimate the difference between a KR player and a good foreigner. It's about very subtle things that add up, not "the foreigner can't take his third at a proper timing" or "the foreigner will always have 20 supply less than a decent KR would".
On February 20 2015 22:52 SC2Toastie wrote: Actually, thinking about this for a bit, it is downright insulting to state the best 32 players of all the world excluding eMecca are bad players....
It's insulting and totally ludicrous. If you listen to some people on that thread, they barely know how to play. Really skilled people have not been able to go through the qualifiers. Those guys are legit and good.
On February 20 2015 22:52 SC2Toastie wrote: Actually, thinking about this for a bit, it is downright insulting to state the best 32 players of all the world excluding eMecca are bad players....
WCS isn't the 32 best players outside of Korea btw. and the skill of some games have been quite low tbh (astrea literally dieing to 3marines a medivac and a hellion...)
On February 20 2015 22:52 SC2Toastie wrote: Actually, thinking about this for a bit, it is downright insulting to state the best 32 players of all the world excluding eMecca are bad players....
It's insulting and totally ludicrous. If you listen to some people on that thread, they barely know how to play. Really skilled people have not been able to go through the qualifiers. Those guys are legit and good.
looks like we have a foreign fanboy here. Dude we are foreign fanboys ourselves. But you have to see the huge gap in their play compared to koreans. There is really nothing to argue about
This is literally the reason Blizzard used the old system in the first place. Foreigners, fans and players, bitched. Watch the Koreans if you want optimal skill and foreigners if you struggle identifying with a different culture or country. There are problems with both systems, but saying it now, when it has already been said countless times before, is not really helpful.
you don't have to watch all the starcraft in the world. No one watches every soccer league Or every chess tournament
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are.
thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected
Who doesn't know that KR is SC2 masterrace ? That casual (whatever that word means) must be an hermit if he is watching esports and has never heard about KR as our goddamn Mecca.
Doesn't mean they still aren't disrespected. I've seen enough complaints about "faceless koreans" and "random koreans" to know better.
On February 20 2015 22:52 SC2Toastie wrote: Actually, thinking about this for a bit, it is downright insulting to state the best 32 players of all the world excluding eMecca are bad players....
It's insulting and totally ludicrous. If you listen to some people on that thread, they barely know how to play. Really skilled people have not been able to go through the qualifiers. Those guys are legit and good.
looks like we have a foreign fanboy here. Dude we are foreign fanboys ourselves. But you have to see the huge gap in their play compared to koreans. There is really nothing to argue about
The skill gap is huge, but it's the skill gap between Federer and Gasquet, not between Federer and an amateur player who doesn't really master the basics. I remind you the title of the thread : WCS Premier Players Cannot Be Considered Good. I think this is absurd, ludicrous, insulting.
You know why the foreign scene is weaker than the Korean scene? Because of attitudes like this. How on earth would the infrastructure necessary for the improvement of the scene develop if half of all the fans of the game try to pretend the foreign scene doesn't even exist? That's not an atmosphere conducive to the investment of sponsors, for the running of tournaments, for incentivizing players to improve.
And to say foreigners don't work as hard as Koreans is such utter bullshit. Perhaps their practice isn't as efficient or focused owing to the lack of a team house environment, but to say they don't work as hard is an insult to the likes of Snute and even to ladder beasts like Kas who practice their hearts out to be able to compete at the top level. Obviously there are individual differences between players. The same exists for Koreans. Don't just throw a blanket "but white guys are lazy!" statement around unless you truly believe guys like Genius are more hard working than everyone not in Korea.
I get it. You want to watch the best, highest skilled starcraft, and the foreign scene isn't there yet. But it never will be there so long as condescending attitudes like the ones displayed in this thread are the norm. Maybe that doesn't matter to some, but it should. SC2 isn't Brood War. It can't survive in South Korea alone.
One thing that I don't understand is constant bashing of the community for foreigners to be as good as Koreans. That will NEVER happen, most of the Koreans have been practicing the way they are for years from SC1, they have progaming houses which makes the practice a lot easier and they have way more discipline than any foreigner does. Foreigners will never ever catch up to Koreans and anyone who says different is delusional. Yes, 1-2-3 foreigners here and there will take games from top Koreans, but that doesn't mean they are on the same level.
Comparing foreigners to Koreans in Starcraft 2 (or any other game that Koreans invest time in) is like comparing high school basketball to NBA (I'll use Thorin's example). They just aren't same league and will never be any time soon and it's just silly to compare them in the first place.
As far as Thorin's how good someone is Harstem is a top player and yes top for foreigners, because Harstem doesn't have same training as Zest does, he doesn't practice versus the players Zest does and he cannot be as good as Zest is, which is why you should not compare the two, they are different leagues.
Him saying "casual players" don't know who is good and who is not and they don't know the difference between the players, what makes you think hardcore viewer knows anything about which player is good and which isn't? Hell, casters even have no freaking idea who are the top players in the foreign community. I'm pretty sure both casual and hardcore viewers thought Violet will go through WCS and that Kelazhur will get demolished by TLO, what happened?
The only people who have good insight who's actually good skill wise are the pro players themselves, because pro players get to play against other players and observe their games against other pro players which then they can analyze or just feel in game the amount of pressure they are putting on you and the multitasking they have, how they defend your drops, how they are positioning their army based on your army. You cannot know that from watching a tournament game.
In TOTALLY unrelated news, college football is pointless and shouldnt exist. NFL or gtfo. Also any football team that doesn't qualify for Champions League will be disbanded as next season.
On February 20 2015 10:06 Powerfoe wrote: At the end of 2014, Blizzard announced a change to their WCS system which would highly restrict the players eligible to participate in their non-Korean WCS events. Now, barring exceptional circumstances, you pretty much have to be white in order to compete in this event.
Now when games are being played, we can see that a lot more fan favourites, such as TLO and MaNa, are able to advance further and more easily in these tournaments due to lesser competition.
This is great and all, but there is an issue where casters and fans start calling these players "good" or "awesome" or "outstanding". However, this is not the case because we know that these players would most likely not have the same success if they had to compete against players wielding the Korean flag. In my opinion it is extremely unfair and borderline offensive to the top Korean players that these foreign hopes are considered to be "good players" when they are clearly not on the same level. WCS Premier is not the same calibre as GSL or NSSL, so those players should be held in a lesser regard.
i just play very casually now. i know little about game play above diamond. and i listen to these commentator compliments.
even guys like me who know very little about the intricacies of the game are expecting the non-koreans to get rolled at the next Blizzcon just based on history.
in the first few Blizzcons Testie would get invited and then get rofl-stomped by every korean at the event. That is probably what we're headed for with this WCS set up.
its no different than when i watch the Canadian Football League and the commentators are yelling and screaming about "the best running back in the country". any one with half a brain knows the guy would struggle to be a 2nd string running back in the NFL.
let the commentators hype up the players all they want.
Honestly, after 4+ years of watching SC2, i cant give a crap anymore about *good players* all i wanna watch now are entertaining or super scrappy games that are exciting and dont follow specific plans.
I actually enjoy WCS premier more than NSSL or GSL for that, i noticed a lot of insanely well played games tend to end really quick and are pretty straight forward and boring.
On February 20 2015 23:47 Quateras wrote: Honestly, after 4+ years of watching SC2, i cant give a crap anymore about *good players* all i wanna watch now are entertaining or super scrappy games that are exciting and dont follow specific plans.
I actually enjoy WCS premier more than NSSL or GSL for that, i noticed a lot of insanely well played games tend to end really quick and are pretty straight forward and boring.
just select carefully your players. Some will play standard and "boring" most of the time (Happy, Snute in EU, Bogus, Taeja in kr eg) and some will have tons of exceptionnal games that fit your criteria (Zest, Maru, Life, Gumiho in kr, TLO/Catz)
There is so much stuff in this thread that is completely ridiculous. It's offensive to korean players to call people playing in tournaments like WCS global "good"? What a joke. The elitist attitude found in the OP and some other posters is a true cancer to the community.
If you actually asked the players, korean or not, you would see they have a great respect for each other. And you will not find one korean who gets upset when someone calls a non korean good.
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are.
thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected
Who doesn't know that KR is SC2 masterrace ? That casual (whatever that word means) must be an hermit if he is watching esports and has never heard about KR as our goddamn Mecca.
Doesn't mean they still aren't disrespected. I've seen enough complaints about "faceless koreans" and "random koreans" to know better.
The response to to sos winning blizzcon or the stories of golden and duckdeok. Granted pigbaby is proof things have gotten better but still this is still an issue
I've told my connections in Brussels about this issue. They are also very concerned about it. The problem is that we don't have enough power in Britain anymore, but they assured me that they will try to do everything in their power to find a reason to keep Apollo captive in Germany and will try to make a case against him.
I hope everyone follows my example. We really must do something against all this player complimenting!
If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are.
thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected
Who doesn't know that KR is SC2 masterrace ? That casual (whatever that word means) must be an hermit if he is watching esports and has never heard about KR as our goddamn Mecca.
Doesn't mean they still aren't disrespected. I've seen enough complaints about "faceless koreans" and "random koreans" to know better.
The response to to sos winning blizzcon or the stories of golden and duckdeok. Granted pigbaby is proof things have gotten better but still this is still an issue
Anyone who saw duckdeok's tears and still thinks that he is a faceless Korean has no soul and would have no reaction to someone being butchered in front of him.
On February 20 2015 10:14 geokilla wrote: Unfortunately I completely agree with this. Even if foreigners make it to Blizzcon or compete against good Koreans in weekend tournaments, the majority of them don't stand a chance. Getting WCS Premier Round of 4 will mean nothing if they can't beat someone like Parting or ForGG.
On February 21 2015 00:09 H0i wrote: There is so much stuff in this thread that is completely ridiculous. It's offensive to korean players to call people playing in tournaments like WCS global "good"? What a joke. The elitist attitude found in the OP and some other posters is a true cancer to the community.
If you actually asked the players, korean or not, you would see they have a great respect for each other. And you will not find one korean who gets upset when someone calls a non korean good.
I agree.
We had the same issue last year with people calling the Koreans who won WCS EU and NA sub par players. The NA and EU regions will never grow unless the players get the respect and compensation they deserve.
The OP is ignorant. Top GM EU players can play better than Koreans on a good day and Koreans can play horribly on a bad day.
On February 21 2015 00:09 H0i wrote: There is so much stuff in this thread that is completely ridiculous. It's offensive to korean players to call people playing in tournaments like WCS global "good"? What a joke. The elitist attitude found in the OP and some other posters is a true cancer to the community.
If you actually asked the players, korean or not, you would see they have a great respect for each other. And you will not find one korean who gets upset when someone calls a non korean good.
I agree.
We had the same issue last year with people calling the Koreans who won WCS EU and NA sub par players. The NA and EU regions will never grow unless the players get the respect and compensation they deserve.
The OP is ignorant. Top GM EU players can play better than Koreans on a good day and Koreans can play horribly on a bad day.
Top GM Eu is Ptitdrogo lvl. He's my mate and I love him but there is 0 way he plays on the level of a Code S player anytime soon lol. You need to get your blinkers off sometimes
On February 21 2015 00:09 H0i wrote: There is so much stuff in this thread that is completely ridiculous. It's offensive to korean players to call people playing in tournaments like WCS global "good"? What a joke. The elitist attitude found in the OP and some other posters is a true cancer to the community.
If you actually asked the players, korean or not, you would see they have a great respect for each other. And you will not find one korean who gets upset when someone calls a non korean good.
I agree.
We had the same issue last year with people calling the Koreans who won WCS EU and NA sub par players. The NA and EU regions will never grow unless the players get the respect and compensation they deserve.
The OP is ignorant. Top GM EU players can play better than Koreans on a good day and Koreans can play horribly on a bad day.
Top GM Eu is Ptitdrogo lvl. He's my mate and I love him but there is 0 way he plays on the level of a Code S player anytime soon lol. You need to get your blinkers off sometimes
I didn't say he would play in code s. I said he could take games off top Koreans which is absolutely true. Another top EU GM is Petreus. This man came from fucking New Zealand all the way to America, then Europe to hone his skill. He has made top 100 kr gm multiple times.
The same ignorant and elitist attitude which thinks Koreans are the best and invincible fails to notice when they make terrible errors in game.
On February 21 2015 00:09 H0i wrote: There is so much stuff in this thread that is completely ridiculous. It's offensive to korean players to call people playing in tournaments like WCS global "good"? What a joke. The elitist attitude found in the OP and some other posters is a true cancer to the community.
If you actually asked the players, korean or not, you would see they have a great respect for each other. And you will not find one korean who gets upset when someone calls a non korean good.
I agree.
We had the same issue last year with people calling the Koreans who won WCS EU and NA sub par players. The NA and EU regions will never grow unless the players get the respect and compensation they deserve.
The OP is ignorant. Top GM EU players can play better than Koreans on a good day and Koreans can play horribly on a bad day.
Thorin made that exact point eh. Just cause a foreigner, or EU player, sometimes beats a korean doesn't mean they are on par eh. Thorin is talking about on average, what's going on eh?
Don't take a specific game in your memory where an eu player beat a korean and use that as a model for the actual skill relationship eh. Because that's going against the actual facts eh
On February 21 2015 00:09 H0i wrote: There is so much stuff in this thread that is completely ridiculous. It's offensive to korean players to call people playing in tournaments like WCS global "good"? What a joke. The elitist attitude found in the OP and some other posters is a true cancer to the community.
If you actually asked the players, korean or not, you would see they have a great respect for each other. And you will not find one korean who gets upset when someone calls a non korean good.
I agree.
We had the same issue last year with people calling the Koreans who won WCS EU and NA sub par players. The NA and EU regions will never grow unless the players get the respect and compensation they deserve.
The OP is ignorant. Top GM EU players can play better than Koreans on a good day and Koreans can play horribly on a bad day.
Thorin made that exact point eh. Just cause a foreigner, or EU player, sometimes beats a korean doesn't mean they are on par eh. Thorin is talking about on average, what's going on eh?
Don't take a specific game in your memory where an eu player beat a korean and use that as a model for the actual skill relationship eh. Because that's going against the actual facts eh
On February 21 2015 00:55 MockHamill wrote: The OP is one the right track I think. Maybe we just need to decide on a system for classifying Starcraft skill.
I suggest the following:
GSL Champion: Good Korean Pro: Ok Foreign Pro: Bad GM: Really bad Master: Retarded Below Masters: Severely retarded
Well, the players below Masters are actually really good, the metagame just hasn't caught up to their playstyles. Otherwise I approve of this.
On February 21 2015 00:09 H0i wrote: There is so much stuff in this thread that is completely ridiculous. It's offensive to korean players to call people playing in tournaments like WCS global "good"? What a joke. The elitist attitude found in the OP and some other posters is a true cancer to the community.
If you actually asked the players, korean or not, you would see they have a great respect for each other. And you will not find one korean who gets upset when someone calls a non korean good.
I agree.
We had the same issue last year with people calling the Koreans who won WCS EU and NA sub par players. The NA and EU regions will never grow unless the players get the respect and compensation they deserve.
The OP is ignorant. Top GM EU players can play better than Koreans on a good day and Koreans can play horribly on a bad day.
Thorin made that exact point eh. Just cause a foreigner, or EU player, sometimes beats a korean doesn't mean they are on par eh. Thorin is talking about on average, what's going on eh?
Don't take a specific game in your memory where an eu player beat a korean and use that as a model for the actual skill relationship eh. Because that's going against the actual facts eh
I watched the first 3 min of the video and he going on and on about good blah blah blah. I doubt this guy is even watching sc2 because almost every single match the casters accurately say who the favorite is.
On February 21 2015 00:09 H0i wrote: There is so much stuff in this thread that is completely ridiculous. It's offensive to korean players to call people playing in tournaments like WCS global "good"? What a joke. The elitist attitude found in the OP and some other posters is a true cancer to the community.
If you actually asked the players, korean or not, you would see they have a great respect for each other. And you will not find one korean who gets upset when someone calls a non korean good.
I agree.
We had the same issue last year with people calling the Koreans who won WCS EU and NA sub par players. The NA and EU regions will never grow unless the players get the respect and compensation they deserve.
The OP is ignorant. Top GM EU players can play better than Koreans on a good day and Koreans can play horribly on a bad day.
Top GM Eu is Ptitdrogo lvl. He's my mate and I love him but there is 0 way he plays on the level of a Code S player anytime soon lol. You need to get your blinkers off sometimes
I didn't say he would play in code s. I said he could take games off top Koreans which is absolutely true. Another top EU GM is Petreus. This man came from fucking New Zealand all the way to America, then Europe to hone his skill. He has made top 100 kr gm multiple times.
The same ignorant and elitist attitude which thinks Koreans are the best and invincible fails to notice when they make terrible errors in game.
Petreaus isn't "top gm". He is literraly owning the EU ladder now that korean left. And you misread what I said. There is no way this guy play a game on the level of the average rain/soulkey/ty game level (even on a bad day there is no foreigner even getting close to have TY multitasking tbh). They can beat them if the koreans are playing at a shitty level (and it happens from time to time, lol at Panic dt shrine being scouted by his revealeted stalkers, that was like bronze level play xD). It appears you don't really know what's the real level of top EU GM. Psionic who got owned really hard by Snute sat for a good time in the top 16 gm. Ladder is pointless you can go high by spamming shitty all ins in some match ups that will not help you in actual tournament play. (that being said these guys are decent at sc2 and most of the time the one who aren't good mostly suck at the strategic aspect of the game and multitasking than anything else).
On February 21 2015 00:55 MockHamill wrote: The OP is one the right track I think. Maybe we just need to decide on a system for classifying Starcraft skill.
I suggest the following:
GSL Champion: Good Korean Pro: Ok Foreign Pro: Bad GM: Really bad Master: Retarded Below Masters: Severely retarded
LMAO i love it.
this is hilarious because this is actually how a lot of people refer to the competitors
I would like the opinion of Koreans on this matter. I think they believe they are the best, but I don't think they are cocky enough to say foreigners in general suck. The best Koreans have lost to foreigners, Flash to Naniwa, Life to Sjow, herO to Snute. Those that mean that they are better? Well, no, I don't think so. But definitely that they are good enough to win occasionally. So I think this discussion is pointless, everybody has got their own opinion. Foreigners are good. They are a threat to Koreans. I think the more appropriate way to approach this is that foreigners are the underdogs, and by that I understand that they are not expected to win, but they still could, which, in my book, having a chance against the Koreans, its a pretty damn good player.
On February 21 2015 01:25 alukarD wrote: I would like the opinion of Koreans on this matter. I think they believe they are the best, but I don't think they are cocky enough to say foreigners in general suck. The best Koreans have lost to foreigners, Flash to Naniwa, Life to Sjow, herO to Snute. Those that mean that they are better? Well, no, I don't think so. But definitely that they are good enough to win occasionally. So I think this discussion is pointless, everybody has got their own opinion. Foreigners are good. They are a threat to Koreans. I think the more appropriate way to approach this is that foreigners are the underdogs, and by that I understand that they are not expected to win, but they still could, which, in my book, having a chance against the Koreans, its a pretty damn good player.
Yeah, I think that the OP is approaching the entire WCS system wrong. The reason the WCS is split up like it is, is specifically so we can find the best foreigner competition for the koreans. Like how WCG was.
On February 21 2015 00:55 MockHamill wrote: The OP is one the right track I think. Maybe we just need to decide on a system for classifying Starcraft skill.
I suggest the following:
GSL Champion: Good Korean Pro: Ok Foreign Pro: Bad GM: Really bad Master: Retarded Below Masters: Severely retarded
Idk. If we say GSL champions are good then we have to call Sniper good, and no one wants to do that.
Multiple time Korean Champion: Decent Korean Champion: Okay, maybe just lucky Korean Pro: Not bad I guess Good foreign pro: Bad Bad foreign pro: Really bad GM and below: Severely retarded
On February 21 2015 01:25 alukarD wrote: I would like the opinion of Koreans on this matter. I think they believe they are the best, but I don't think they are cocky enough to say foreigners in general suck. The best Koreans have lost to foreigners, Flash to Naniwa, Life to Sjow, herO to Snute. Those that mean that they are better? Well, no, I don't think so. But definitely that they are good enough to win occasionally. So I think this discussion is pointless, everybody has got their own opinion. Foreigners are good. They are a threat to Koreans. I think the more appropriate way to approach this is that foreigners are the underdogs, and by that I understand that they are not expected to win, but they still could, which, in my book, having a chance against the Koreans, its a pretty damn good player.
Yeah, I think that the OP is approaching the entire WCS system wrong. The reason the WCS is split up like it is, is specifically so we can find the best foreigner competition for the koreans. Like how WCG was.
Probably Polt/Forgg/Hydra, they kinda ruin the whole thing ssince they'll take so much points during the year + flying to a ton of week end event and get some more points.
Isn't this topic a bit late? This raging debate took place the day Blizzard announced that Koreans would be blocked from competing outside of Korea, unless you're Polt or ForGG.
i think refering to koreans as better players and the way people talk about korean players in general is insulting and somehow racist.
In the end we are all humans of equal kind. Some humans force them selves to the edge to become the best players. Its the dedication and the hard practice that makes a good player and not the nationality.
On February 21 2015 00:09 H0i wrote: There is so much stuff in this thread that is completely ridiculous. It's offensive to korean players to call people playing in tournaments like WCS global "good"? What a joke. The elitist attitude found in the OP and some other posters is a true cancer to the community.
If you actually asked the players, korean or not, you would see they have a great respect for each other. And you will not find one korean who gets upset when someone calls a non korean good.
I agree.
We had the same issue last year with people calling the Koreans who won WCS EU and NA sub par players. The NA and EU regions will never grow unless the players get the respect and compensation they deserve.
The OP is ignorant. Top GM EU players can play better than Koreans on a good day and Koreans can play horribly on a bad day.
Top GM Eu is Ptitdrogo lvl. He's my mate and I love him but there is 0 way he plays on the level of a Code S player anytime soon lol. You need to get your blinkers off sometimes
I didn't say he would play in code s. I said he could take games off top Koreans which is absolutely true. Another top EU GM is Petreus. This man came from fucking New Zealand all the way to America, then Europe to hone his skill. He has made top 100 kr gm multiple times.
The same ignorant and elitist attitude which thinks Koreans are the best and invincible fails to notice when they make terrible errors in game.
Petreaus isn't "top gm". He is literraly owning the EU ladder now that korean left. And you misread what I said. There is no way this guy play a game on the level of the average rain/soulkey/ty game level (even on a bad day there is no foreigner even getting close to have TY multitasking tbh). They can beat them if the koreans are playing at a shitty level (and it happens from time to time, lol at Panic dt shrine being scouted by his revealeted stalkers, that was like bronze level play xD). It appears you don't really know what's the real level of top EU GM. Psionic who got owned really hard by Snute sat for a good time in the top 16 gm. Ladder is pointless you can go high by spamming shitty all ins in some match ups that will not help you in actual tournament play. (that being said these guys are decent at sc2 and most of the time the one who aren't good mostly suck at the strategic aspect of the game and multitasking than anything else).
Hahaha ok man might as well shut down gm in NA and EU because it means nothing. Only Koreans gms are "really gm." If all it takes to get high gm is "spam all ins" you should be right up there and hell, even a shitty NA player like me should be top gm. Just "spam all ins." Ridiculous....
If we can agree on anything, it's that top Koreans are on average better. I don't think anyone would argue that.
On February 21 2015 01:33 bypLy wrote: i think refering to koreans as better players and the way people talk about korean players in general is insulting and somehow racist.
In the end we are all humans of equal kind. Some humans force them selves to the edge to become the best players. Its the dedication and the hard practice that makes a good player and not the nationality.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever uttered in SC2 general and that's saying a lot.
Koreans have proven to be BY FAR better players over Starcraft's history and one only has to look at Premier Tournament wins to see that the assertion that Koreans are better is backed up by facts. Also no one is saying that Koreans are biologically inclined to be better at Starcraft don't be silly. We get that the reason Koreans are better is because they have a better support system in place and more often than not practice longer/harder than their foreign counterparts. It is nurture rather than nature that makes them so good.
In short, don't be silly. Of course the Koreans are better.
On February 21 2015 00:55 MockHamill wrote: The OP is one the right track I think. Maybe we just need to decide on a system for classifying Starcraft skill.
I suggest the following:
GSL Champion: Good Korean Pro: Ok Foreign Pro: Bad GM: Really bad Master: Retarded Below Masters: Severely retarded
Idk. If we say GSL champions are good then we have to call Sniper good, and no one wants to do that.
Multiple time Korean Champion: Decent Korean Champion: Okay, maybe just lucky Korean Pro: Not bad I guess Good foreign pro: Bad Bad foreign pro: Really bad GM and below: Severely retarded
You're calling Sniper, Seed and Classic okay and that's definitely not acceptable.
Multiple time Korean champion : OKish. Korean champion : probably bad since an OK player would have more titles under his belt. Korean pro : bad to the point he can't even win a KR championship which is the only thing that matters. The rest : absolutely God awful.
On February 21 2015 01:25 alukarD wrote: I would like the opinion of Koreans on this matter. I think they believe they are the best, but I don't think they are cocky enough to say foreigners in general suck. The best Koreans have lost to foreigners, Flash to Naniwa, Life to Sjow, herO to Snute. Those that mean that they are better? Well, no, I don't think so. But definitely that they are good enough to win occasionally. So I think this discussion is pointless, everybody has got their own opinion. Foreigners are good. They are a threat to Koreans. I think the more appropriate way to approach this is that foreigners are the underdogs, and by that I understand that they are not expected to win, but they still could, which, in my book, having a chance against the Koreans, its a pretty damn good player.
Yeah, I think that the OP is approaching the entire WCS system wrong. The reason the WCS is split up like it is, is specifically so we can find the best foreigner competition for the koreans. Like how WCG was.
Probably Polt/Forgg/Hydra, they kinda ruin the whole thing ssince they'll take so much points during the year + flying to a ton of week end event and get some more points.
Don't forget JD and probably Stardust (not sure?). I don't think a foreigner will play blizzcon this year
On February 21 2015 01:33 bypLy wrote: i think refering to koreans as better players and the way people talk about korean players in general is insulting and somehow racist.
In the end we are all humans of equal kind. Some humans force them selves to the edge to become the best players. Its the dedication and the hard practice that makes a good player and not the nationality.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever uttered in SC2 general and that's saying a lot.
Koreans have proven to be BY FAR better players over Starcraft's history and one only has to look at Premier Tournament wins to see that the assertion that Koreans are better is backed up by facts. Also no one is saying that Koreans are biologically inclined to be better at Starcraft don't be silly. We get that the reason Koreans are better is because they have a better support system in place and more often than not practice longer/harder than their foreign counterparts. It is nurture rather than nature that makes them so good.
In short, don't be silly. Of course the Koreans are better.
I respectfully disagree, think of the situation: you are a korean and force yourself very hard until you are the 30th best player in the world. Nobody cares about you, but now look at some foreign players that are probably below #200 worlwide getting such a platform and getting called good players. This is a punch in the face.
On February 21 2015 01:33 bypLy wrote: i think refering to koreans as better players and the way people talk about korean players in general is insulting and somehow racist.
In the end we are all humans of equal kind. Some humans force them selves to the edge to become the best players. Its the dedication and the hard practice that makes a good player and not the nationality.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever uttered in SC2 general and that's saying a lot.
Koreans have proven to be BY FAR better players over Starcraft's history and one only has to look at Premier Tournament wins to see that the assertion that Koreans are better is backed up by facts. Also no one is saying that Koreans are biologically inclined to be better at Starcraft don't be silly. We get that the reason Koreans are better is because they have a better support system in place and more often than not practice longer/harder than their foreign counterparts. It is nurture rather than nature that makes them so good.
In short, don't be silly. Of course the Koreans are better.
I respectfully disagree, think of the situation: you are a korean and force yourself very hard until you are the 30th best player in the world. Nobody cares about you, but now look at some foreign players that are probably below #200 worlwide getting such a platform and getting called good players. This is a punch in the face.
This is the same everywhere. The best non Asian badminton player is always held in high regard even if he's #20. It's unfair, it's stupid, but that's the way it works. A KR player beginning to play SC2 competitively knows he'll have extremely good practice environment but a harder time to get recognition. You can't get everything.
And for God's sake, the #200 worldwide is an AMAZING player ! This game is played with dedication by so many people... What do you call the #200 ? Bad ? So what about a low GM ? Not even worth holding a mouse ?
On February 21 2015 01:33 bypLy wrote: i think refering to koreans as better players and the way people talk about korean players in general is insulting and somehow racist.
In the end we are all humans of equal kind. Some humans force them selves to the edge to become the best players. Its the dedication and the hard practice that makes a good player and not the nationality.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever uttered in SC2 general and that's saying a lot.
Koreans have proven to be BY FAR better players over Starcraft's history and one only has to look at Premier Tournament wins to see that the assertion that Koreans are better is backed up by facts. Also no one is saying that Koreans are biologically inclined to be better at Starcraft don't be silly. We get that the reason Koreans are better is because they have a better support system in place and more often than not practice longer/harder than their foreign counterparts. It is nurture rather than nature that makes them so good.
In short, don't be silly. Of course the Koreans are better.
I respectfully disagree, think of the situation: you are a korean and force yourself very hard until you are the 30th best player in the world. Nobody cares about you, but now look at some foreign players that are probably below #200 worlwide getting such a platform and getting called good players. This is a punch in the face.
This is the same everywhere. The best non Asian badminton player is always held in high regard even if he's #20. It's unfair, it's stupid, but that's the way it works. A KR player beginning to play SC2 competitively knows he'll have extremely good practice environment but a harder time to get recognition. You can't get everything.
And for God's sake, the #200 worldwide is an AMAZING player ! This game is played with dedication by so many people... What do you call the #200 ? Bad ? So what about a low GM ? Not even worth holding a mouse ?
if you haven't won a GSL after a month of playing it is really not worth for you to keep trying.
On February 21 2015 01:33 bypLy wrote: i think refering to koreans as better players and the way people talk about korean players in general is insulting and somehow racist.
In the end we are all humans of equal kind. Some humans force them selves to the edge to become the best players. Its the dedication and the hard practice that makes a good player and not the nationality.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever uttered in SC2 general and that's saying a lot.
Koreans have proven to be BY FAR better players over Starcraft's history and one only has to look at Premier Tournament wins to see that the assertion that Koreans are better is backed up by facts. Also no one is saying that Koreans are biologically inclined to be better at Starcraft don't be silly. We get that the reason Koreans are better is because they have a better support system in place and more often than not practice longer/harder than their foreign counterparts. It is nurture rather than nature that makes them so good.
In short, don't be silly. Of course the Koreans are better.
I respectfully disagree, think of the situation: you are a korean and force yourself very hard until you are the 30th best player in the world. Nobody cares about you, but now look at some foreign players that are probably below #200 worlwide getting such a platform and getting called good players. This is a punch in the face.
This is the same everywhere. The best non Asian badminton player is always held in high regard even if he's #20. It's unfair, it's stupid, but that's the way it works. A KR player beginning to play SC2 competitively knows he'll have extremely good practice environment but a harder time to get recognition. You can't get everything.
And for God's sake, the #200 worldwide is an AMAZING player ! This game is played with dedication by so many people... What do you call the #200 ? Bad ? So what about a low GM ? Not even worth holding a mouse ?
if you haven't won a GSL after a month of playing it is really not worth for you to keep trying.
Yeah I guess so. But I run out of adjectives to talk about someone who's gold for instance. ^^
On February 21 2015 01:33 bypLy wrote: i think refering to koreans as better players and the way people talk about korean players in general is insulting and somehow racist.
In the end we are all humans of equal kind. Some humans force them selves to the edge to become the best players. Its the dedication and the hard practice that makes a good player and not the nationality.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever uttered in SC2 general and that's saying a lot.
Koreans have proven to be BY FAR better players over Starcraft's history and one only has to look at Premier Tournament wins to see that the assertion that Koreans are better is backed up by facts. Also no one is saying that Koreans are biologically inclined to be better at Starcraft don't be silly. We get that the reason Koreans are better is because they have a better support system in place and more often than not practice longer/harder than their foreign counterparts. It is nurture rather than nature that makes them so good.
In short, don't be silly. Of course the Koreans are better.
I respectfully disagree, think of the situation: you are a korean and force yourself very hard until you are the 30th best player in the world. Nobody cares about you, but now look at some foreign players that are probably below #200 worlwide getting such a platform and getting called good players. This is a punch in the face.
This is the same everywhere. The best non Asian badminton player is always held in high regard even if he's #20. It's unfair, it's stupid, but that's the way it works. A KR player beginning to play SC2 competitively knows he'll have extremely good practice environment but a harder time to get recognition. You can't get everything.
And for God's sake, the #200 worldwide is an AMAZING player ! This game is played with dedication by so many people... What do you call the #200 ? Bad ? So what about a low GM ? Not even worth holding a mouse ?
if you haven't won a GSL after a month of playing it is really not worth for you to keep trying.
Yeah I guess so. But I run out of adjectives to talk about someone who's gold for instance. ^^
That's really blizzards fault. They should force you to register with your passport so you can only have one account, and then do a monthly perma-banwave on everyone below GM. These scumbags really shouldn't play the game. Then you wouldn't be in trouble finding adjectives for them.
On February 21 2015 01:33 bypLy wrote: i think refering to koreans as better players and the way people talk about korean players in general is insulting and somehow racist.
In the end we are all humans of equal kind. Some humans force them selves to the edge to become the best players. Its the dedication and the hard practice that makes a good player and not the nationality.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever uttered in SC2 general and that's saying a lot.
Koreans have proven to be BY FAR better players over Starcraft's history and one only has to look at Premier Tournament wins to see that the assertion that Koreans are better is backed up by facts. Also no one is saying that Koreans are biologically inclined to be better at Starcraft don't be silly. We get that the reason Koreans are better is because they have a better support system in place and more often than not practice longer/harder than their foreign counterparts. It is nurture rather than nature that makes them so good.
In short, don't be silly. Of course the Koreans are better.
I respectfully disagree, think of the situation: you are a korean and force yourself very hard until you are the 30th best player in the world. Nobody cares about you, but now look at some foreign players that are probably below #200 worlwide getting such a platform and getting called good players. This is a punch in the face.
This is the same everywhere. The best non Asian badminton player is always held in high regard even if he's #20. It's unfair, it's stupid, but that's the way it works. A KR player beginning to play SC2 competitively knows he'll have extremely good practice environment but a harder time to get recognition. You can't get everything.
And for God's sake, the #200 worldwide is an AMAZING player ! This game is played with dedication by so many people... What do you call the #200 ? Bad ? So what about a low GM ? Not even worth holding a mouse ?
if you haven't won a GSL after a month of playing it is really not worth for you to keep trying.
Yeah I guess so. But I run out of adjectives to talk about someone who's gold for instance. ^^
That's really blizzards fault. They should force you to register with your passport so you can only have one account, and then do a monthly perma-banwave on everyone below GM. These scumbags really shouldn't play the game. Then you wouldn't be in trouble finding adjectives for them.
Ha ha ha . Why just ban them though ? Hunt them and kill them. They are so retarded I doubt they can bring something good to mankind.
On February 21 2015 01:33 bypLy wrote: i think refering to koreans as better players and the way people talk about korean players in general is insulting and somehow racist.
In the end we are all humans of equal kind. Some humans force them selves to the edge to become the best players. Its the dedication and the hard practice that makes a good player and not the nationality.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever uttered in SC2 general and that's saying a lot.
Koreans have proven to be BY FAR better players over Starcraft's history and one only has to look at Premier Tournament wins to see that the assertion that Koreans are better is backed up by facts. Also no one is saying that Koreans are biologically inclined to be better at Starcraft don't be silly. We get that the reason Koreans are better is because they have a better support system in place and more often than not practice longer/harder than their foreign counterparts. It is nurture rather than nature that makes them so good.
In short, don't be silly. Of course the Koreans are better.
I respectfully disagree, think of the situation: you are a korean and force yourself very hard until you are the 30th best player in the world. Nobody cares about you, but now look at some foreign players that are probably below #200 worlwide getting such a platform and getting called good players. This is a punch in the face.
This is the same everywhere. The best non Asian badminton player is always held in high regard even if he's #20. It's unfair, it's stupid, but that's the way it works. A KR player beginning to play SC2 competitively knows he'll have extremely good practice environment but a harder time to get recognition. You can't get everything.
And for God's sake, the #200 worldwide is an AMAZING player ! This game is played with dedication by so many people... What do you call the #200 ? Bad ? So what about a low GM ? Not even worth holding a mouse ?
if you haven't won a GSL after a month of playing it is really not worth for you to keep trying.
Yeah I guess so. But I run out of adjectives to talk about someone who's gold for instance. ^^
That's really blizzards fault. They should force you to register with your passport so you can only have one account, and then do a monthly perma-banwave on everyone below GM. These scumbags really shouldn't play the game. Then you wouldn't be in trouble finding adjectives for them.
Ha ha ha . Why just ban them though ? Hunt them and kill them. They are so retarded I doubt they can bring something good to mankind.
On February 21 2015 01:33 bypLy wrote: i think refering to koreans as better players and the way people talk about korean players in general is insulting and somehow racist.
In the end we are all humans of equal kind. Some humans force them selves to the edge to become the best players. Its the dedication and the hard practice that makes a good player and not the nationality.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever uttered in SC2 general and that's saying a lot.
Koreans have proven to be BY FAR better players over Starcraft's history and one only has to look at Premier Tournament wins to see that the assertion that Koreans are better is backed up by facts. Also no one is saying that Koreans are biologically inclined to be better at Starcraft don't be silly. We get that the reason Koreans are better is because they have a better support system in place and more often than not practice longer/harder than their foreign counterparts. It is nurture rather than nature that makes them so good.
In short, don't be silly. Of course the Koreans are better.
I respectfully disagree, think of the situation: you are a korean and force yourself very hard until you are the 30th best player in the world. Nobody cares about you, but now look at some foreign players that are probably below #200 worlwide getting such a platform and getting called good players. This is a punch in the face.
This is the same everywhere. The best non Asian badminton player is always held in high regard even if he's #20. It's unfair, it's stupid, but that's the way it works. A KR player beginning to play SC2 competitively knows he'll have extremely good practice environment but a harder time to get recognition. You can't get everything.
And for God's sake, the #200 worldwide is an AMAZING player ! This game is played with dedication by so many people... What do you call the #200 ? Bad ? So what about a low GM ? Not even worth holding a mouse ?
if you haven't won a GSL after a month of playing it is really not worth for you to keep trying.
Yeah I guess so. But I run out of adjectives to talk about someone who's gold for instance. ^^
That's really blizzards fault. They should force you to register with your passport so you can only have one account, and then do a monthly perma-banwave on everyone below GM. These scumbags really shouldn't play the game. Then you wouldn't be in trouble finding adjectives for them.
Ha ha ha . Why just ban them though ? Hunt them and kill them. They are so retarded I doubt they can bring something good to mankind.
I was afraid to post that. But now that you say it, I'm in full agree. And you know who's the worst? The OP and everyone who agrees with him! He doesn't even have the balls to call for real sanctions. He is the real cancer for our great cause of cleansing mankind, making it look like we would be fine with those people not being called "good" anymore!
In all seriousness I wish people would think about what it takes to play at this level before calling anyone bad or saying they don't deserve to be called good. It's incredibly unfair.
thought about this and realised i have a system for rating players but mines much more simple
Elite - yes i use this word, this is reserved for ur tournie winners and time and time again winnters, i would then nominate a best from this i suppose
Good - Using that word again, these players will take games off the elite and are always there in brackets,
Low tier - Pros, are off and on, better than any gm player (sc2 if we use that here) and been in some staged events
It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it? It simply makes no sense if you wanna rate them to call every single one of them at least good in the context of professional players. "Good" loses its meaning completely. That doesn't mean that you can't say Mana (cause it was brought up here) played well or anything like that obviously. So it really just depends, what does "good" in this context mean? Do you have to be in the top 50? Do you have to be in the top 100? How many professional players do we even have to compare them? It's not that anybody thinks an average professional (or even "bad" one) is bad in comparison to the entire playerbase. Or that he has to be bad in comparison to the competition he faces in his region. But if you wanna talk about actuall skill compared to the very best you also have to be more drastic to value these players, otherwise it doesn't mean anything anymore.
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it? It simply makes no sense if you wanna rate them to call every single one of them at least good in the context of professional players. "Good" loses its meaning completely. That doesn't mean that you can't say Mana (cause it was brought up here) played well or anything like that obviously. So it really just depends, what does "good" in this context mean? Do you have to be in the top 50? Do you have to be in the top 100? How many professional players do we even have to compare them? It's not that anybody thinks an average professional (or even "bad" one) is bad in comparison to the entire playerbase. Or that he has to be bad in comparison to the competition he faces in his region. But if you wanna talk about actuall skill compared to the very best you also have to be more drastic to value these players, otherwise it doesn't mean anything anymore.
All progamers are good. Above "good" is very good, excellent, incredible, amazing, outstanding, exceptional, Mvpesque... It's not like we'll run out of adjectives. On the other hand, calling a pro "bad" sounds just wrong to me.
Someone's 'goodness' is only useful compared to someone else's or some expectation or something like that. So if some foreigner owns a group, he's good (compared to the others/compared to someone's expectations). Effectively the op is mistaking good for best. I'm really annoyed by the notion that someone's skills apparently may not be praised if they're not world class.
I can understand criticisms about the current system, but that's a different matter alltogether.
I'm not sure why this is a topic. Superlatives casters use are always based on the talent pool of all of the players playing. Are casters for sub-pro level tournaments supposed to preface every comment with "Amazing splits!.. for a gold player."
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it? It simply makes no sense if you wanna rate them to call every single one of them at least good in the context of professional players. "Good" loses its meaning completely. That doesn't mean that you can't say Mana (cause it was brought up here) played well or anything like that obviously. So it really just depends, what does "good" in this context mean? Do you have to be in the top 50? Do you have to be in the top 100? How many professional players do we even have to compare them? It's not that anybody thinks an average professional (or even "bad" one) is bad in comparison to the entire playerbase. Or that he has to be bad in comparison to the competition he faces in his region. But if you wanna talk about actuall skill compared to the very best you also have to be more drastic to value these players, otherwise it doesn't mean anything anymore.
All progamers are good. Above "good" is very good, excellent, incredible, amazing, outstanding, exceptional, Mvpesque... It's not like we'll run out of adjectives. On the other hand, calling a pro "bad" sounds just wrong to me.
All progamers are good in comparison to normal people. But not all progamers are good in comparison to progamers. Take all progamers, rate their skill. Take the average and look which progamers are around that (arbitrary, but just as an example) number. These are the average ones, etc. Let's take terror for example, is he really good? No absolutely not, he isn't a good progamer. I totally understand why people make fun of this idea of rating, it feels weird calling someone who puts in that much effort "bad" or "average", but not everybody can be remembered as a good sc2 progamer.
Above "good" is very good, excellent, incredible, amazing, outstanding, exceptional, Mvpesque...
what is the difference between amazing, outstanding, incredible and exceptional? If you wanna rate it should be as clear as possible, that's why there is something below "good", "average" and "bad" for example
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it? It simply makes no sense if you wanna rate them to call every single one of them at least good in the context of professional players. "Good" loses its meaning completely. That doesn't mean that you can't say Mana (cause it was brought up here) played well or anything like that obviously. So it really just depends, what does "good" in this context mean? Do you have to be in the top 50? Do you have to be in the top 100? How many professional players do we even have to compare them? It's not that anybody thinks an average professional (or even "bad" one) is bad in comparison to the entire playerbase. Or that he has to be bad in comparison to the competition he faces in his region. But if you wanna talk about actuall skill compared to the very best you also have to be more drastic to value these players, otherwise it doesn't mean anything anymore.
All progamers are good. Above "good" is very good, excellent, incredible, amazing, outstanding, exceptional, Mvpesque... It's not like we'll run out of adjectives. On the other hand, calling a pro "bad" sounds just wrong to me.
All progamers are good in comparison to normal people. But not all progamers are good in comparison to progamers. Take all progamers, rate their skill. Take the average and look which progamers are around that (arbitrary, but just as an example) number. These are the average ones, etc. Let's take terror for example, is he really good? No absolutely not, he isn't a good progamer. I totally understand why people make fun of this idea of rating, it feels weird calling someone who puts in that much effort "bad" or "average", but not everybody can be remembered as a good sc2 progamer.
Above "good" is very good, excellent, incredible, amazing, outstanding, exceptional, Mvpesque...
what is the difference between amazing, outstanding, incredible and exceptional? If you wanna rate it should be as clear as possible, that's why there is something under "good", average, bad for example
To be fair trying to rate players makes little sense to me. I guess I'll leave it there, I just completely disagree with the idea that casters should tone down everything because foreigner pros aren't the same class as korean pros and that you can't call a WCS Premier player good.
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it? It simply makes no sense if you wanna rate them to call every single one of them at least good in the context of professional players. "Good" loses its meaning completely. That doesn't mean that you can't say Mana (cause it was brought up here) played well or anything like that obviously. So it really just depends, what does "good" in this context mean? Do you have to be in the top 50? Do you have to be in the top 100? How many professional players do we even have to compare them? It's not that anybody thinks an average professional (or even "bad" one) is bad in comparison to the entire playerbase. Or that he has to be bad in comparison to the competition he faces in his region. But if you wanna talk about actuall skill compared to the very best you also have to be more drastic to value these players, otherwise it doesn't mean anything anymore.
All progamers are good. Above "good" is very good, excellent, incredible, amazing, outstanding, exceptional, Mvpesque... It's not like we'll run out of adjectives. On the other hand, calling a pro "bad" sounds just wrong to me.
All progamers are good in comparison to normal people. But not all progamers are good in comparison to progamers. Take all progamers, rate their skill. Take the average and look which progamers are around that (arbitrary, but just as an example) number. These are the average ones, etc. Let's take terror for example, is he really good? No absolutely not, he isn't a good progamer. I totally understand why people make fun of this idea of rating, it feels weird calling someone who puts in that much effort "bad" or "average", but not everybody can be remembered as a good sc2 progamer.
Above "good" is very good, excellent, incredible, amazing, outstanding, exceptional, Mvpesque...
what is the difference between amazing, outstanding, incredible and exceptional? If you wanna rate it should be as clear as possible, that's why there is something under "good", average, bad for example
To be fair trying to rate players makes little sense to me. I guess I'll leave it there, I just completely disagree with the idea that casters should tone down everything because foreigner pros aren't the same class as korean pros and that you can't call a WCS Premier player good.
I don't agree with that radical notion either tbh, i am not sure where the line is. But i am sure there is one, where calling player x "good" is just not true anymore. I am not saying this is the case at wcs level or anything. The only case where i get annoyed is when casters tell me foreigner X is "one of the best players in the world", no he is not! I am just arguing the general idea here, not really where to draw the line. But just looking at Pig vs Happy right now, there was a clear skill gap, people shouldn't be afraid to acknowledge that AND also name it.
casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"?
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though.
Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ?
On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote: casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"?
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though.
Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ?
Yes they are here to make the game interesting through their casting, that doesn't mean they have to do it in these silly ways. If everybody knows it's over, there is no point to not call it over. You don't have to be that extreme as your example either, but pls don't think the viewers are stupid :/ If you don't have the ability to cast games with more nuance than your two examples, maybe you are just not a good caster at the end of the day? (nah every caster is good, that's why they are casting there and not me, bla bla )
Is anyone going to discuss the point that he finds that caster's stating that a player is good as offensive to Koreans? I struggle to think of any Korean pro who is going to make a fuss over the positive observation of a foreign players skill. If this were the case, the when a Korean player does lose to a foreigner it'd by like the world is coming to an end for them.
Seriously? All of the good foreigners can take games off top korean players and win matches against average koreans. So yes they are in fact good, very good at Starcraft.
The 'one of the best X in the world' title is how english casters usually refer to the top koreans, which is a level above 'good'.
On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote: casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"?
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though.
Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ?
I remember years ago when artosis / tasteless casted that set of forgg vs zerg (leenock?) when forgg (who was way hyped at the time) did a really bad marine push that failed miserably. And all the commentary was "wow I can't believe how BAD that was" or "im sorry you guys had to watch that" in an unironic way.
On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote: casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"?
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though.
Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ?
I remember years ago when artosis / tasteless casted that set of forgg vs zerg (leenock?) when forgg (who was way hyped at the time) did a really bad marine push that failed miserably. And all the commentary was "wow I can't believe how BAD that was" or "im sorry you guys had to watch that" in an unironic way.
And they were absolutely right.
Therefore casters should always castigate the players in foreigner vs foreigner games? No.
On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote: casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"?
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though.
Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ?
I remember years ago when artosis / tasteless casted that set of forgg vs zerg (leenock?) when forgg (who was way hyped at the time) did a really bad marine push that failed miserably. And all the commentary was "wow I can't believe how BAD that was" or "im sorry you guys had to watch that" in an unironic way.
And they were absolutely right.
Therefore casters should always castigate the players in foreigner vs foreigner games? No.
No. Point being it's okay to say a player is bad or played bad and no one should be beyond reproach. Saying every one is good loses meaning.
On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote: casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"?
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though.
Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ?
I remember years ago when artosis / tasteless casted that set of forgg vs zerg (leenock?) when forgg (who was way hyped at the time) did a really bad marine push that failed miserably. And all the commentary was "wow I can't believe how BAD that was" or "im sorry you guys had to watch that" in an unironic way.
And they were absolutely right.
Therefore casters should always castigate the players in foreigner vs foreigner games? No.
No. Point being it's okay to say a player is bad or played bad and no one should be beyond reproach. Saying every one is good loses meaning.
But in your opinion, all foreign players are bad because they are worse than Koreans. So if a caster is going to accurately describe a player he always has to call foreign players bad, right?
On February 21 2015 03:55 boxerfred wrote: I think WCS Premier players are good players.
I think the confusion comes from a missunderstanding tbh. Yes they are good players, but they don't have to be good progamers. People usually use "players" regardless of the context though.
On February 21 2015 03:55 boxerfred wrote: I think WCS Premier players are good players.
I think the confusion comes from a missunderstanding tbh. Yes they are good players, but they don't have to be good progamers. People usually use "players" regardless of the context though.
Do you find the OP more insulting to non-Korean players or are what the commentators saying more insulting to Koreans? That's the real ethical dilemma.
On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote: casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"?
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though.
Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ?
I remember years ago when artosis / tasteless casted that set of forgg vs zerg (leenock?) when forgg (who was way hyped at the time) did a really bad marine push that failed miserably. And all the commentary was "wow I can't believe how BAD that was" or "im sorry you guys had to watch that" in an unironic way.
And they were absolutely right.
Therefore casters should always castigate the players in foreigner vs foreigner games? No.
No. Point being it's okay to say a player is bad or played bad and no one should be beyond reproach. Saying every one is good loses meaning.
"good" doesn't lose meaning. Other words do, for example the word "nervous" or the word "strange", that are overly used to describe bad play.
But I'm glad you brought up "bad" because that's one of the 1000 places where the whole theory falls flat. Let's say someone plays badly in the next GSL group. If people say he's bad, and the same people have been saying that Mana was good yesterday, are you really going to conclude that we think Mana is better than that person? Think on that. If you don't, then you know we're capable of accounting for context, and you know the whole discussion is pointless.
On February 21 2015 03:55 boxerfred wrote: I think WCS Premier players are good players.
I think the confusion comes from a missunderstanding tbh. Yes they are good players, but they don't have to be good progamers. People usually use "players" regardless of the context though.
Do you find the OP more insulting to non-Korean players or are what the commentators saying more insulting to Koreans? That's the real ethical dilemma.
I actually don't care about the OP all that much (i don't think it is a good post at all tbh). I just argue the notion that every progamer is automatically a good one. I don't agree with that. If we wanna value the skill level of these progamers (if we actually wanna do that, i think it's interesting) there have to be average and bad ones too, that's just how it works..^^ As i said before though, i think it's stupid when casters tell me that all these players are the best in the world, i actually think this is kinda insulting to the really best ones. I just would like casters to be more precise in the end i guess.
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it?
On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote: casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"?
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though.
Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ?
Yes they are here to make the game interesting through their casting, that doesn't mean they have to do it in these silly ways. If everybody knows it's over, there is no point to not call it over. You don't have to be that extreme as your example either, but pls don't think the viewers are stupid :/ If you don't have the ability to cast games with more nuance than your two examples, maybe you are just not a good caster at the end of the day? (nah every caster is good, that's why they are casting there and not me, bla bla )
it s an extreme example, I dont like it. I am not a caster (obviously).. I meant to say it s nothing unusual for casters that s all. I actually watch mostly Korean streams because there is passion and not annoying comments like Wolf
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it?
who said that? I dont.
That's the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise we could say diamond players are really good as well cause they are in the top 10% of players. Ofc we should value in the context of a certain group, here: progamers. That doesn't mean that we cannot value them in other categories as well though, player X might not be a very good progamer worldwide, he maybe is a very good foreigner though, different categories. But yeah, i don't think i can add anything reasonable anymore, you either think valuing these things in different contexts is usefull (i think so), or you don't...
On February 21 2015 03:55 boxerfred wrote: I think WCS Premier players are good players.
I think the confusion comes from a missunderstanding tbh. Yes they are good players, but they don't have to be good progamers. People usually use "players" regardless of the context though.
Do you find the OP more insulting to non-Korean players or are what the commentators saying more insulting to Koreans? That's the real ethical dilemma.
I think what's really insulting is that Koreans aren't allowed to take part in the biggest international league, which is called WCS, because they're too good compared to foreigner scrubs.
There are a number of legitimate foreign players but half the names in WCS premier league have nothing to do being there.
On February 21 2015 03:55 boxerfred wrote: I think WCS Premier players are good players.
I think the confusion comes from a missunderstanding tbh. Yes they are good players, but they don't have to be good progamers. People usually use "players" regardless of the context though.
Do you find the OP more insulting to non-Korean players or are what the commentators saying more insulting to Koreans? That's the real ethical dilemma.
I think what's really insulting is that Koreans aren't allowed to take part in the biggest international league, which is called WCS, because they're too good compared to foreigner scrubs.
There are a number of legitimate foreign players but half the names in WCS premier league have nothing to do being there.
I think we are all hoping that the decision Blizzard made will help rise the skill level of foreign players and help sustain the scene. Blizzard obviously made a choice this is going to be unpopular with a lot of people. I admire it because it is a very bold one to make even though they are constantly under the subject of ridicule. If at the end of this year or even next year foreigners are contending with Koreans for the world title, then Blizzard will no doubt deserve a good deal of credit.
The context of western WCS is not the same as the world context, that's why it's OK to say wcs players are good.
Yeah, when they face up against major Korean competition, then we won't call them good in that context, but in the context they are currently playing, and the one commentators are talking about, they are good.
you can be good without being godly top korean tier imo, most ppl in sc community tend to be huge fanboys of korean players only and hates everyone else that can't play 24/7 in a korean teamhouse environment it seems
On February 21 2015 06:07 coL.hendralisk wrote: you can be good without being godly top korean tier imo, most ppl in sc community tend to be huge fanboys of korean players only and hates everyone else that can't play 24/7 in a korean teamhouse environment it seems
I think the real issue is that the premise is wrong.
Not everyone is amazing.
But to have a professional scene the professionals all need to be good to begin with.
And when everyone is amazing there are still extremely amazing players, even if some are fairly even they are still steps above others who are above others etc.
With regards to the OP.
But if you wanna talk about a StarCraft problem - yeah a lot of people dont like to support more localized scene, even though they are on paper less skillfull than the koreans, its still fun to watch the NA/EU/non top Korean players.
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it?
who said that? I dont.
That's the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise we could say diamond players are really good as well cause they are in the top 10% of players. Ofc we should value in the context of a certain group, here: progamers. That doesn't mean that we cannot value them in other categories as well though, player X might not be a very good progamer worldwide, he maybe is a very good foreigner though, different categories. But yeah, i don't think i can add anything reasonable anymore, you either think valuing these things in different contexts is usefull (i think so), or you don't...
Casters don't cast the game for progamers only, they are talking to the audience. So the perspective is from the point of view of average Joe. It's like "did you see that game? Man, he is so good, you can't play that well". If you want to compare them to other progamers whats wrong with saying "he is such a good progamer"? Everyone is happy, problem solved. You've made an incorrect assumption that only context of "progamers" makes sense.
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it?
who said that? I dont.
That's the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise we could say diamond players are really good as well cause they are in the top 10% of players. Ofc we should value in the context of a certain group, here: progamers. That doesn't mean that we cannot value them in other categories as well though, player X might not be a very good progamer worldwide, he maybe is a very good foreigner though, different categories. But yeah, i don't think i can add anything reasonable anymore, you either think valuing these things in different contexts is usefull (i think so), or you don't...
Casters don't cast the game for progamers only, they are talking to the audience. So the perspective is from the point of view of average Joe. It's like "did you see that game? Man, he is so good, you can't play that well". If you want to compare them to other progamers whats wrong with saying "he is such a good progamer"? Everyone is happy, problem solved. You've made an incorrect assumption that only context of "progamers" makes sense.
A "random joe" is also interested in how the progamers stand up against each other. He already knows that these players are all way better than him. If every single progamer is "such a good progamer", there is literally no information transported.
Being good is relative. Being "good" or "bad" itself doesn't mean anything. You can be "good" or "bad" compared to someone else. It's obvious that in a game like starcraft, an average player sucks compared to someone who sucks compared to someone who sucks.... and so on before reaching the world top players. WCS premier players are bad compared to GSL/SSL players, but compared to an average viewer, they are obviously infinitely better, and they can do awesome things that the average viewer wouldn't even dream about.
I haven't really followed SC2 that much lately, but won't this foreigner only WCS be really hurtful for foreigners in a long run since they will play easier matches, while in GSL matches will get even harder and skill difference will become even bigger?
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it?
who said that? I dont.
That's the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise we could say diamond players are really good as well cause they are in the top 10% of players. Ofc we should value in the context of a certain group, here: progamers. That doesn't mean that we cannot value them in other categories as well though, player X might not be a very good progamer worldwide, he maybe is a very good foreigner though, different categories. But yeah, i don't think i can add anything reasonable anymore, you either think valuing these things in different contexts is usefull (i think so), or you don't...
Casters don't cast the game for progamers only, they are talking to the audience. So the perspective is from the point of view of average Joe. It's like "did you see that game? Man, he is so good, you can't play that well". If you want to compare them to other progamers whats wrong with saying "he is such a good progamer"? Everyone is happy, problem solved. You've made an incorrect assumption that only context of "progamers" makes sense.
A "random joe" is also interested in how the progamers stand up against each other. He already knows that these players are all way better than him. If every single progamer is "such a good progamer", there is literally no information transported.
I don't know about you, but I personally hate it when casters act like they know all and start building hierarchies of progamers only to have them fall apart every second time. Its ok to make predictions, being a smartass is not what casters should aim for.
The WCS prize pool is 217000 and explicitly prevents those living in Korea from playing. The combined GSL + SSL prize pool is only 150000. It doesnt seem fair that GSL + SSL has much higher quality players and yet have a significantly smaller prize pool.
On February 20 2015 10:29 HomeWorld wrote: I think the OP was(still is) inebriated when he made this thread. Also, who the hell is Thorin ?!
You don't follow esports, then?
Woot, cos you have to know every small caster to "follow" esports? Are you serious? Well you know less physics than Stephen Hawking so clearly you are unaware of that the Earth is not flat.
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it?
who said that? I dont.
That's the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise we could say diamond players are really good as well cause they are in the top 10% of players. Ofc we should value in the context of a certain group, here: progamers. That doesn't mean that we cannot value them in other categories as well though, player X might not be a very good progamer worldwide, he maybe is a very good foreigner though, different categories. But yeah, i don't think i can add anything reasonable anymore, you either think valuing these things in different contexts is usefull (i think so), or you don't...
Casters don't cast the game for progamers only, they are talking to the audience. So the perspective is from the point of view of average Joe. It's like "did you see that game? Man, he is so good, you can't play that well". If you want to compare them to other progamers whats wrong with saying "he is such a good progamer"? Everyone is happy, problem solved. You've made an incorrect assumption that only context of "progamers" makes sense.
A "random joe" is also interested in how the progamers stand up against each other. He already knows that these players are all way better than him. If every single progamer is "such a good progamer", there is literally no information transported.
I don't know about you, but I personally hate it when casters act like they know all and start building hierarchies of progamers only to have them fall apart every second time. Its ok to make predictions, being a smartass is not what casters should aim for.
It isn't about being a smartass, it's about being honest to the viewers. That doesn't mean you have to shit on "the lesser" players at all, you actually could create great storylines with being more honest. The current scene just doesn't seem to be very interested in that part (which is a huge error imo). But yeah whatever, apparently all progamers are good progamers compared to each other ^^
On February 21 2015 03:55 boxerfred wrote: I think WCS Premier players are good players.
I think the confusion comes from a missunderstanding tbh. Yes they are good players, but they don't have to be good progamers. People usually use "players" regardless of the context though.
Do you find the OP more insulting to non-Korean players or are what the commentators saying more insulting to Koreans? That's the real ethical dilemma.
I think what's really insulting is that Koreans aren't allowed to take part in the biggest international league, which is called WCS, because they're too good compared to foreigner scrubs.
There are a number of legitimate foreign players but half the names in WCS premier league have nothing to do being there.
Or perhaps it's a compliment to give them their own region entirely? Korea is a WCS region. It's a part of WCS. Blizzcon, the crowning WCS tournament, will probably have only koreans.
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it?
who said that? I dont.
That's the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise we could say diamond players are really good as well cause they are in the top 10% of players. Ofc we should value in the context of a certain group, here: progamers. That doesn't mean that we cannot value them in other categories as well though, player X might not be a very good progamer worldwide, he maybe is a very good foreigner though, different categories. But yeah, i don't think i can add anything reasonable anymore, you either think valuing these things in different contexts is usefull (i think so), or you don't...
Casters don't cast the game for progamers only, they are talking to the audience. So the perspective is from the point of view of average Joe. It's like "did you see that game? Man, he is so good, you can't play that well". If you want to compare them to other progamers whats wrong with saying "he is such a good progamer"? Everyone is happy, problem solved. You've made an incorrect assumption that only context of "progamers" makes sense.
A "random joe" is also interested in how the progamers stand up against each other. He already knows that these players are all way better than him. If every single progamer is "such a good progamer", there is literally no information transported.
I don't know about you, but I personally hate it when casters act like they know all and start building hierarchies of progamers only to have them fall apart every second time. Its ok to make predictions, being a smartass is not what casters should aim for.
It isn't about being a smartass, it's about being honest to the viewers. That doesn't mean you have to shit on "the lesser" players at all, you actually could create great storylines with being more honest. The current scene just doesn't seem to be very interested in that part (which is a huge error imo). But yeah whatever, apparently all progamers are good progamers compared to each other ^^
Yeah lets have the honest casting this way: "Ok, look, TLO won today but don't get too carried away guys. There is no way he is good coz there are soooo many koreans who are better than him. Byebye everyone, thanks for watching shitty starcraft"
I don't see a problem here OP, if the problem is about regarding foreign players in the same level as Korean players. Literally everybody who follows pro-scene knows that Korean players are better than their counterparts, so when they said "good", "awesome", "outstanding" to foreign players, they mean it in comparison to other foreign players.
You can compare it with football, everyone who follow football knows if you want to watch the best players there is you can watch La Liga, Premier League, Bundesliga, or Serie A. French League (Ligue 1) is still good, but fans make careful assessments of players who excelled in league other than the big four : if i put players who excelled in Brazilian or French League to La Liga for example, can he still excel there? If anything football is worse, other than top 10 in each positions, other players are only called good or generic players lol. But its a non-issue in football.
In regards to caster, once again you can compare it to the commentators in football : when you see two unknown football team plays, does it become a problem if the commentators praise the dribbling, shooting, or passing skills of the players? Nope, as long as the commentators don't overdo it.
The point is casters and fans only do it to appreciate the players and not oblivious to the comparison, this issue is overblown really. Especially the casters, they should know about the skill gaps the most having observed so many games of pro-scene.
I think most people who've replied to this thread have failed to apply the principle of charity to the OP, and it also seems like most people didn't watch the video in the OP which does a great job of dealing with this issue. If everybody just watched the video there wouldn't be anything to discuss, but I guess that's not going to happen so I'll just chip in with a few points (the video does a much better job of expanding on this).
First of all, if your definition of "good" is that a player is better than 99 % of the player pool for the game (i.e. saying somebody is good because they can consistently beat the majority of the casual player base), you have a problem. By using this definition, you make the word "good" superfluous in any high level competitive tournament, because all players would then be considered good, and you might as well not say anything about their skill level (there is also the fact that everybody knows that competitors in major tournaments vastly outclass the casual player base). In other words, you need to use the words describing player skill within context, and it follows that to get any sort of meaningful distinction when it comes to player skill, you need to compare a player's skill to other top players, not to some random people who play the game casually.
Another problem with this usage of "good" is that the term becomes so vague that it becomes useless. For example, most people would agree that Taeja is much, much better than Harstem. If you call both of these players good, you lose the distinction that is the massive gap in these players' skill gaps. Sure, compared to the casual player base, Harstem is really good, but when compared to the top level SC players, Harstem is outright bad. Let me just say this before someone gets overly defensive: This is not an attack on Harstem and should not be interpreted as me shitting on him, it is just a statement about the nature of reality. Of course I could never, ever take a game off of Harstem, but that is not the point here. You do not need to be a top player in order to more or less coarsely categorize players' skills, just as you don't need to be a top-class chef in order to determine whether or not a certain dish tastes good, nor do you need to be a famous musician to determine whether or not a guitar solo is well executed.
That being said, let me make the main argument of my post:
Even if you want the word "good" to be all-encompassing for the top level players (as to become practically useless in my opinion), the problem is that casters outright lie to their audience in order to hype a game up. If we use the Taeja vs. Harstem example, the casters would go on about how they are both good players and on a good day Harstem could beat Taeja, when the truth is that once in a blue moon and <insert a lot of incredibly unlikely events here>, Harstem could take a set off of Taeja.
Like OP's video explained, this is intellectually dishonest and frankly I don't really understand the thought process behind it. Let me provide you with two scenarios:
1. Casters proceed as normal, and hype the match between Taeja and Harstem. The match concludes as expected (Taeja crushes Harstem), and one of three conclusions will be reached: Either Harstem just had a really bad day (this point gets worse and worse as the players play more sets), the casters lied about the players' relative skill levels (I would consider this detrimental to procuring and maintaining your fanbase), or the casters don't know what they are talking about (in which case, why would you continue to listen to them?).
2. The casters are honest about the gap in skill levels, and throughout the match they explain why Taeja is better, and what Taeja does that makes him a better player. This allows the casual watcher to marvel at Taeja's skill, and really see what sets the players apart, besides getting to see skillful execution in various aspects of the game, as well as having this explained to them.
The 2nd scenario is in my opinion better, both for the casual fanbase and for the more hardcore fans. You might argue that they have to hype it to attract an audience, but then I will argue that no matter how stupid a certain fan is, at some point he or she will realize that the casters are either morons or full of shit, and come to expect that matches that are hyped up as "good player vs. good player" will be one-sided molestations, and eventually become disinterested.
All that being said, I just mute all streams nowadays with the exception of Artosis' casts, because of the aforementioned argument and also because I am not blind, and thus have no need to listen to the majority of casters.
On February 21 2015 13:58 I_PROTOSSED_MY_HW wrote: First of all, if your definition of "good" is that a player is better than 99 % of the player pool for the game (i.e. saying somebody is good because they can consistently beat the majority of the casual player base), you have a problem.
the real problem is not semantics that you are trying to argue, the real problem is that you are denying good players the credit their due.
I consider all WCS players good. Like really good. Sure, they aren't the top of the top players, but they're the best we have. Koreans are better of course, but that doesn't make all foreigners bad.
Another problem with this usage of "good" is that the term becomes so vague that it becomes useless. For example, most people would agree that Taeja is much, much better than Harstem. If you call both of these players good, you lose the distinction that is the massive gap in these players' skill gaps. Sure, compared to the casual player base, Harstem is really good, but when compared to the top level SC players, Harstem is outright bad. Let me just say this before someone gets overly defensive: This is not an attack on Harstem and should not be interpreted as me shitting on him, it is just a statement about the nature of reality. Of course I could never, ever take a game off of Harstem, but that is not the point here. You do not need to be a top player in order to more or less coarsely categorize players' skills, just as you don't need to be a top-class chef in order to determine whether or not a certain dish tastes good, nor do you need to be a famous musician to determine whether or not a guitar solo is well executed.
Taeja is really bad though as has been pointed out in various threads about "the best player of *something*". I wouldn't take him as an example for good. Maybe you could say Life is good, but let's be real for a moment, Life lost to Sjow at some point of his career. It would be quite offensive to all the people who didn't lose to Sjow to call Life good. Given that Sjow has retired due to how bad of a player he was (because why else would he retire!? It MUST be the reason!), I'd outright call Life shit too. To be honest, we shouldn't even call anyone these days good. Just think back of the old days when we had people that were really good at something: Pele at Football, Hermann Maier at Skiing, Lance Armstrong at doping... That's what we should be looking for when calling someone good. Maybe one could call Flash decent at playing Broodwar back in the days but I'd be very careful with this, after all Lance was really, really impressive at doping and he might be severely offended by the in comparison scrublike performances of Flash in Broodwar.
I guess what it comes down to is that we shouldn't be using such an exact and well-defined measure as "good" (and please, if you haven't taken measure theory at some good university, just step away from using adjectives at all!) that losely. As a rule of thumb, only call the good players good players!
Another problem with this usage of "good" is that the term becomes so vague that it becomes useless. For example, most people would agree that Taeja is much, much better than Harstem. If you call both of these players good, you lose the distinction that is the massive gap in these players' skill gaps. Sure, compared to the casual player base, Harstem is really good, but when compared to the top level SC players, Harstem is outright bad. Let me just say this before someone gets overly defensive: This is not an attack on Harstem and should not be interpreted as me shitting on him, it is just a statement about the nature of reality. Of course I could never, ever take a game off of Harstem, but that is not the point here. You do not need to be a top player in order to more or less coarsely categorize players' skills, just as you don't need to be a top-class chef in order to determine whether or not a certain dish tastes good, nor do you need to be a famous musician to determine whether or not a guitar solo is well executed.
Taeja is really bad though as has been pointed out in various threads about "the best player of *something*". I wouldn't take him as an example for good. Maybe you could say Life is good, but let's be real for a moment, Life lost to Sjow at some point of his career. It would be quite offensive to all the people who didn't lose to Sjow to call Life good. Given that Sjow has retired due to how bad of a player he was (because why else would he retire!? It MUST be the reason!), I'd outright call Life shit too. To be honest, we shouldn't even call anyone these days good. Just think back of the old days when we had people that were really good at something: Pele at Football, Hermann Maier at Skiing, Lance Armstrong at doping... That's what we should be looking for when calling someone good. Maybe one could call Flash decent at playing Broodwar back in the days but I'd be very careful with this, after all Lance was really, really impressive at doping and he might be severely offended by the in comparison scrublike performances of Flash in Broodwar.
I guess what it comes down to is that we shouldn't be using such an exact and well-defined measure as "good" (and please, if you haven't taken measure theory at some good university, just step away from using adjectives at all!) that losely. As a rule of thumb, only call the good players good players!
I think we should call every progamer "good". They all put in so much effort, it would be really insulting to call them bad compared to others. It doesn't matter if your winrate is below 50% against koreans, you still are a good, or maybe even really good progamer. The koreans around 50% are very good. Then there are players who can make code S, but never really make it far, i think they are one of the best tbh. If we talk about title contenders (who never win one though), these palyers should be called the best of the best. Now we also have players like Innovation and Maru, Life, who actually are title contenders and won stuff, these should be called better than best of the best or best of the best of the best. If we do it like i just described there is no progamer who has to be sad that he is only average, they are all at least good. Even though "good" here is actually the worst, but hey it's still good
I think there should be a distinction between tournaments. If they are casting WCS then theres no reason not to use words like good/best to determine players skill level within. However, outside of WCS, lets say IEM then suddenly we can use different words to describe these players. Lets say in WCS player A and B are non-koreans.
in WCS player A is good and Player B is one of the best in the tournament.
In IEM where there are tons of koreans player A is quite bad and player B is average-decent
Just because Bayern Munich is dominating the Bundesliga, the other teams aren't bad. There's always a better one if you just search long enough. Who's the best player in the world? Are players worse than the best one bad players? Or normal? Or good? Stupid discussion and thread, IMHO.
I will argue that in the same way that we aren't allowed to call anyone except life or parting good anymore, we are no longer allowed to call any threads bad while this crown jewel of threads exists
On February 22 2015 09:08 Darthsanta13 wrote: I will argue that in the same way that we aren't allowed to call anyone except life or parting good anymore, we are no longer allowed to call any threads bad while this crown jewel of threads exists
On February 22 2015 09:40 Tuczniak wrote: Anyone that's not top5 player in the world should be called scrub, average or loser. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.
I would rather live in a world where we can call people scrub, average, or loser than pretend everyone is good forever. I rather cheer a player through a terrible slump while acknowledging that he's playing like garbage than listen to bullshit hype and bandwagoning.
On February 22 2015 09:40 Tuczniak wrote: Anyone that's not top5 player in the world should be called scrub, average or loser. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.
I would rather live in a world where we can call people scrub, average, or loser than pretend everyone is good forever. I rather cheer a player through a terrible slump while acknowledging that he's playing like garbage than listen to bullshit hype and bandwagoning.
I think it's safe to say that a majority of viewers, and particularly the newer ones, would prefer otherwise. It's okay to be partially critical of players, but it's never a good idea to talk poorly about a player in your tournament... It's pretty much a casters role to hype up actions and players, though. So, if it really bothers you, I think the mute button would be the place to go. I know I find most of the commentary rather useless, so I often just listen to my own music instead. Sometimes I don't mind hearing what they have to say, though (usually with Protoss, as I don't understand P as well as T/Z).
On February 22 2015 09:40 Tuczniak wrote: Anyone that's not top5 player in the world should be called scrub, average or loser. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.
I would rather live in a world where we can call people scrub, average, or loser than pretend everyone is good forever. I rather cheer a player through a terrible slump while acknowledging that he's playing like garbage than listen to bullshit hype and bandwagoning.
I agree with this, but I can see how it could look bad especially to new viewers if casters said what we are saying to ourselves. Recall how annoying artosis was when soO played TaeJa, now imagine if taeja was playing bly instead and was crushing him. It wouldnt look good if casters bashed Bly etc...
What the hell is the point of this thread? There's no definite, objective scale to define "good" or "bad" so I'm not sure what the OP is getting at. Yes, Koreans pros on average are much better than foreign pros, but this shouldn't mean that their accomplishments should be swept under the rug like it's nothing.
On February 20 2015 10:06 Powerfoe wrote: WCS Premier is not the same calibre as GSL or NSSL, so those players should be held in a lesser regard.
It is a shame that the OP goes a bit too far. The term "good" is too loose to ever come to an agreement.
Because the topic is quite relevant. With "World Championship Series - Premier" it sounds like World Class players would be playing. And that is definetely not the case - there are ForGG, Snute and Polt and even they are only Top15 if you are generous. Rest is just not World Class.
I'm not really convinced that casters and hosts pretending a player is better than they are is something that actually happens a lot. Watching WCS today, I didn't see anyone claiming that forGG was anything other than a huge favourite to win the group. And personally, if the casters went on and on about how forGG was better than his opponents I'd feel pretty patronised as a viewer. By all means, discuss what makes him good, but I don't need to be constantly reminded that Koreans are good at StarCraft.
If this were a major issue, it would mean that large portions of the audience/community believe that foreigners are as good as Koreans. I just don't think that's the case. Whether it's long posts on TL or people saying "full foreigner lol" in Twitch chat, everyone clearly knows who the best are. We're capable of appreciating people's skill and getting excited about their matches without pretending they're the best in the world.
As a (former) player, I think WCS players are good. As a spectator who also watches Korean leagues, I don't.
And I think that's where the debate is coming from. You don't really see baseball fans calling the team in last place "good", but they likely haven't played any baseball at a competitive level in years, if at all, and I think the same is true of any physical sport.
But as a Starcraft II fan, or as a fan of any esport, you can hop on the ladder right after the game is on and completely and utterly fail to be even half as good as the worst professional player. And so you just call everyone good, because they are, compared to you. The one thing this thread mostly seems to agree on is that "good" is a relative term.
The problem with this argument is that in suggests that to be good one must be able to go toe to toe with the top Koreans. This is not a fair judgement at all, especially since these foreigners are amazing at the game compared to people who do not play competitively. They are even quite close competitively with Koreans at times. When we say "Wow that guy is great!" in WCS it is true that that doesn't mean they can beat top Koreans necessarily, but it does mean they are consistently dominant in WCS against their peers. That means that we absolutely can call them good, amazing, etc. .
Pretty much this, if we go to a local hockey/soccer/baseball/whatever match we probably won't whine about casters calling players "good" even though they are not as good as the absolute best players in the world.
Everyone is not compared to the best of the world thats just a ridiculous notion, TLO, Mana or whoever european is probably within the 100 best players of SC2 in the world period. Thinking about how many people there are in the world I think calling that great or amazing is pretty much right on the money.
Players are judged depending on their environment, if they were at a small lan they would be god, in WCS they are great in korea they would be mediocre at best.
naming it "world championships" then banning the best in the world is kind of ridiculous, deceptive and is basically a scumbag move. don't name it world championships if you ban certain races to participate, whatever the reason is for the ban, its just wrong on all fronts.
Thats why it is part of the world championchip series, where all events give players point to become part in the global playoffs at blizzcon. And what, what did I hear, there are even to Leagues with the same points ins korea, where the best players are. Magnificant. And oh yeah, I heared some said, "Not South Korea World Championchip Series" sounds broken.
I mean, I am nowhere near a fan of the exodus we had here in Germany, but bitching without any more serious argument then "WCS is named WCS thats so stupid, no koreans, plox!" is just not that kind of Argument, when the everything in the WCS (also GSL and NSL) lead to the global playoffs, where, per usuall, 15 or 16 koreans will play it out.
EPT
And I am telling this even though one of my best PvZ games to watch is Catz winning with airtoss playing as Zerg 
