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eeZe
United States54 Posts
On February 21 2015 02:12 Zealously wrote: Agreed. Please keep the discussion (however flawed it may have been from the start) on topic. I'm struggling with what the OP topic even is. Casters should make disparaging remarks about non-KR players to keep the universally known "skill standard" in context? Is the OP really Artosis? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it? It simply makes no sense if you wanna rate them to call every single one of them at least good in the context of professional players. "Good" loses its meaning completely. That doesn't mean that you can't say Mana (cause it was brought up here) played well or anything like that obviously. So it really just depends, what does "good" in this context mean? Do you have to be in the top 50? Do you have to be in the top 100? How many professional players do we even have to compare them? It's not that anybody thinks an average professional (or even "bad" one) is bad in comparison to the entire playerbase. Or that he has to be bad in comparison to the competition he faces in his region. But if you wanna talk about actuall skill compared to the very best you also have to be more drastic to value these players, otherwise it doesn't mean anything anymore. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On February 21 2015 02:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is really simple tbh. If you wanna rate progamers you will encounter a point where you just can't call player X good anymore. He's maybe average or something like that, but if all progamers are "good" (remember, we rate progamers only here), then what about the absolute best and the tiers (slightly) under it? It simply makes no sense if you wanna rate them to call every single one of them at least good in the context of professional players. "Good" loses its meaning completely. That doesn't mean that you can't say Mana (cause it was brought up here) played well or anything like that obviously. So it really just depends, what does "good" in this context mean? Do you have to be in the top 50? Do you have to be in the top 100? How many professional players do we even have to compare them? It's not that anybody thinks an average professional (or even "bad" one) is bad in comparison to the entire playerbase. Or that he has to be bad in comparison to the competition he faces in his region. But if you wanna talk about actuall skill compared to the very best you also have to be more drastic to value these players, otherwise it doesn't mean anything anymore. All progamers are good. Above "good" is very good, excellent, incredible, amazing, outstanding, exceptional, Mvpesque... It's not like we'll run out of adjectives. On the other hand, calling a pro "bad" sounds just wrong to me. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
I'm really annoyed by the notion that someone's skills apparently may not be praised if they're not world class. I can understand criticisms about the current system, but that's a different matter alltogether. | ||
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Darthsanta13
United States564 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 21 2015 02:42 [PkF] Wire wrote: All progamers are good. Above "good" is very good, excellent, incredible, amazing, outstanding, exceptional, Mvpesque... It's not like we'll run out of adjectives. On the other hand, calling a pro "bad" sounds just wrong to me. All progamers are good in comparison to normal people. But not all progamers are good in comparison to progamers. Take all progamers, rate their skill. Take the average and look which progamers are around that (arbitrary, but just as an example) number. These are the average ones, etc. Let's take terror for example, is he really good? No absolutely not, he isn't a good progamer. I totally understand why people make fun of this idea of rating, it feels weird calling someone who puts in that much effort "bad" or "average", but not everybody can be remembered as a good sc2 progamer. Above "good" is very good, excellent, incredible, amazing, outstanding, exceptional, Mvpesque... what is the difference between amazing, outstanding, incredible and exceptional? If you wanna rate it should be as clear as possible, that's why there is something below "good", "average" and "bad" for example | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On February 21 2015 02:50 The_Red_Viper wrote: All progamers are good in comparison to normal people. But not all progamers are good in comparison to progamers. Take all progamers, rate their skill. Take the average and look which progamers are around that (arbitrary, but just as an example) number. These are the average ones, etc. Let's take terror for example, is he really good? No absolutely not, he isn't a good progamer. I totally understand why people make fun of this idea of rating, it feels weird calling someone who puts in that much effort "bad" or "average", but not everybody can be remembered as a good sc2 progamer. what is the difference between amazing, outstanding, incredible and exceptional? If you wanna rate it should be as clear as possible, that's why there is something under "good", average, bad for example To be fair trying to rate players makes little sense to me. I guess I'll leave it there, I just completely disagree with the idea that casters should tone down everything because foreigner pros aren't the same class as korean pros and that you can't call a WCS Premier player good. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 21 2015 02:52 [PkF] Wire wrote: To be fair trying to rate players makes little sense to me. I guess I'll leave it there, I just completely disagree with the idea that casters should tone down everything because foreigner pros aren't the same class as korean pros and that you can't call a WCS Premier player good. I don't agree with that radical notion either tbh, i am not sure where the line is. But i am sure there is one, where calling player x "good" is just not true anymore. I am not saying this is the case at wcs level or anything. The only case where i get annoyed is when casters tell me foreigner X is "one of the best players in the world", no he is not! I am just arguing the general idea here, not really where to draw the line. But just looking at Pig vs Happy right now, there was a clear skill gap, people shouldn't be afraid to acknowledge that AND also name it. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3467 Posts
Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though. Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote: casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"? Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though. Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ? Yes they are here to make the game interesting through their casting, that doesn't mean they have to do it in these silly ways. If everybody knows it's over, there is no point to not call it over. You don't have to be that extreme as your example either, but pls don't think the viewers are stupid :/ If you don't have the ability to cast games with more nuance than your two examples, maybe you are just not a good caster at the end of the day? (nah every caster is good, that's why they are casting there and not me, bla bla  ) | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19322 Posts
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
The 'one of the best X in the world' title is how english casters usually refer to the top koreans, which is a level above 'good'. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
wrong thread | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
This is a dumb thread. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On February 21 2015 02:57 WGT-Baal wrote: casters are here to hype the game they are casting OP, simple as that. It is like when you hear "oh my god nice move, but it s not over yet" whereas it s clear to everyone that it s over. would you watch a game where the casters would be "this game is terribad, seriously, so bad"? Yes some players in NA and EU are not as skilled as some players from KR. It doesn't mean they are bad though. Perhaps you are having issues differentiating good from better/best ? I remember years ago when artosis / tasteless casted that set of forgg vs zerg (leenock?) when forgg (who was way hyped at the time) did a really bad marine push that failed miserably. And all the commentary was "wow I can't believe how BAD that was" or "im sorry you guys had to watch that" in an unironic way. And they were absolutely right. | ||
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Moonsalt
267 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On February 21 2015 03:49 Caihead wrote: I remember years ago when artosis / tasteless casted that set of forgg vs zerg (leenock?) when forgg (who was way hyped at the time) did a really bad marine push that failed miserably. And all the commentary was "wow I can't believe how BAD that was" or "im sorry you guys had to watch that" in an unironic way. And they were absolutely right. Therefore casters should always castigate the players in foreigner vs foreigner games? No. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On February 21 2015 03:52 Doodsmack wrote: Therefore casters should always castigate the players in foreigner vs foreigner games? No. No. Point being it's okay to say a player is bad or played bad and no one should be beyond reproach. Saying every one is good loses meaning. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
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