EPTWCS Premier Players Cannot Be Considered Good - Page 2
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intense555
United States474 Posts
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
I mean all the others dont seems to be naturally gifted or a level above what the average intelligent human could reach with 8hours of pratice a day. | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments | ||
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
On February 20 2015 11:36 Cheren wrote: "Proud to be the #1 source of "foreigner bias" (aka acknowledging that countries besides Korea exist) on TL." Thank god we have people like you, because looking at pages like the one below I think it would be pretty easy to forget countries besides Korea exist. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential? | ||
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hborrgg
United States888 Posts
On February 20 2015 11:30 j4vz wrote: The op only focused on one point, but if any intelligent being were praticing 8 hours a day since beta they would probably be at least as the same level as the NA/EU player that get praised so much. In a sense there is nothing extraordinary with these players, the only foreigners I would consider worthy of being called talented/good is Stephano in is prime and Naniwa. I mean all the others dont seems to be naturally gifted or a level above what the average intelligent human could reach with 8hours of pratice a day. Wait, are you trying to argue that south Koreans are just born better StarCraft players, or are you just complaining that for most nonkoreans it isn't feasible to practice 8 hours a day for years on end? | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
I think anyone who's been around for even a little while would have pieced together that probably less than 5 foreigners would be considered "good" relative to Korean compeition. Koreans came 1 game away from all-killing another year after already doing so in 2013 (SEN!). The gap has widened since the beginning of sc2. I recently said I don't want any foreigner except  Snute to make it into the top 16 for the upcoming IEM. Why? I've come to accept that those foreign slots would likely be a waste. Just a blowout series waiting to happen. Still, I think the assumption that when a foreigner receives praise for being "good" it's with respect to their level of competition. Foreigners are still professionals and would probably shit all over the vast majority of TL in gameplay quality. So there's still a reason to praise and watch their competition. There's still something to learn from them. In fact, I'm actually liking this new WCS system. It's nice seeing all the regions clash against each other with a few schoolyard bullies mixed in (Koreans) :p | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12179 Posts
Nobody who argued for a region lock of WCS did so because he thought all regions would be equally skilled. Literally nobody. Actually, the reason for wanting a region lock was the opposite, so you couldn't find a clearer strawman if you tried. Another problem with your argument is that you're going to want to pretend there is a system that allows for equal skill in every WCS region. There is no such thing. Even without restriction, the best competition will remain the one in Korea. So under your definition, we can never call anything good unless it's Ro8 GSL. That doesn't make a ton of sense. There is a difference between being good and being amongst the best, and anyone who watches starcraft a little bit will tell you that (unless they have an agenda to say otherwise). | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On February 20 2015 10:14 geokilla wrote: Unfortunately I completely agree with this. Even if foreigners make it to Blizzcon or compete against good Koreans in weekend tournaments, the majority of them don't stand a chance. Getting WCS Premier Round of 4 will mean nothing if they can't beat someone like Parting or ForGG. ROFL. There are very few people on earth who can beat PartinG. He is one of the absolute best players on earth. It's like saying you're bad at tennis if you can't beat Federer or Nadal or Djoko. There are hundreds of very talented tennis players who make a living playing Tennis and never win Grand Slams. | ||
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Beakyboo
United States485 Posts
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mikumegurine
Canada3145 Posts
dont call your self good, and noone should ever call you good only Lebron James is called good | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12179 Posts
On February 20 2015 11:40 Circumstance wrote: Yes, isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you can ride on the back of a massively advantageous infrastructure instead of having to actually work to realize your potential? ITT Koreans don't actually work... | ||
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
On February 20 2015 11:17 Hadronsbecrazy wrote: you just grouped ForGG with PartinG >_> Yeah I don't know why I said Parting. I was thinking of your average Korean. Should have said Trap or B4 instead I guess? Honestly it's going to be hard to compare players right now given so little weekend tournaments happened in 2015 so far. Answer this though, is it fair to see players like Bunny or Mana at Blizzcon when we can have Maru, or Parting instead? Not hating on anyone but to me, Blizzcon is for the best of the best. The way WCS is done this year almost certainly won't allow that. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:07 Pursuit_ wrote: Aww, I was hoping this was a quote from some Korean player's interview. Oh well. GSL And SSL Players Cannot Be Considered Entertaining | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
If so then I totally agree and everybody calling TLO even remotely good should be forced to watch Lillekanin's, Firecake's, Stephano's or avilo's stream for | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
On February 20 2015 10:17 Elentos wrote: This is so very patronizing. They are far better than a vast majority of SC2 players, and thus should be considered good. A lot of Korean pros are better, some outstanding, the world elite, godlike if you want to go that far. But this should not be used as an argument to degrade players of this quality. Nevermind that there are players in WCS Premier who are on the same level as many Koreans, i.e. Liquid's own Snute and Bunny who have taken games and even series against Korean players. Naniwa was, in his prime, more successful than many Koreans. Saying that these people aren't good is beyond "borderline offensive". I never understood this ideology, yes, the players in premier are unfathomably better than I am, but at the same time, we are not comparing them to me are we? No we are comparing them to other progamers, therefore the best of the best are the standard by which we measure the skill of all progamers, and as such you cannot call players like Juanito, Kelazhur, even Bunny etc good, because they really are not on the same level as most Koreans. In fact, I would argue that your insistence to call all these guys "outstanding" an affront to the far better Koreans. I'll put it this way, Life Sleep Maru and Showtime are in the same group at say, an IEM. We can confidently say that Life and Maru will advance from the group, because the other two players are bad in comparison. If you want to make the argument that that is far too extreme an example, then how about this, HuK HyuN Seed Major. Seed is a former GSL champion who has done next to nothing since that win. HyuN is a simple weekend warrior, good but not great amongst Koreans. 95% sure the Koreans would make it out of that group despite those Koreans being amongst the weaker ones. Again, Everyone in premier is better than me, but if you want to compare progamers with the majority of players, then that is an insult to both the progamers and the masses. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:04 geokilla wrote: Yeah I don't know why I said Parting. I was thinking of your average Korean. Should have said Trap or B4 instead I guess? Honestly it's going to be hard to compare players right now given so little weekend tournaments happened in 2015 so far. Answer this though, is it fair to see players like Bunny or Mana at Blizzcon when we can have Maru, or Parting instead? Not hating on anyone but to me, Blizzcon is for the best of the best. The way WCS is done this year almost certainly won't allow that. Why do you think that? Koreans now have two leagues which give wcs points and foreigners only have one instead of two and there are still some koreans in wcs. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12179 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:04 geokilla wrote: Answer this though, is it fair to see players like Bunny or Mana at Blizzcon when we can have Maru, or Parting instead? Not hating on anyone but to me, Blizzcon is for the best of the best. The way WCS is done this year almost certainly won't allow that. It's fair in a random person's definition of fair, which is based on results. It is unfair in a definition of fair based on merit. But let's go to the end of that definition. Let's say we're using "merit" as the qualifier for Blizzcon. A player qualifies to the Ro8 of GSL by beating two extremely good players in long, drawn-out games where a lot of multitask and good play are involved. Let's say in that same Ro8 there's a guy who is there because he cheesed and the other player, despite being in a winning position, made an incredibly large mistake. Should we give them a different rating in that ideal WCS system because one of them is more deserving than the other? How do you grade that kind of stuff, is there a ladder somewhere? The majority of players will tell you that macro players are more deserving than cheesers, how do you account for that? Does being entertaining count as merit? Merit is a fickle thing, I'm glad we're using the more stable "results" category. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
On February 20 2015 12:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: Why do you think that? Koreans now have two leagues which give wcs points and foreigners only have one instead of two and there are still some koreans in wcs. i dunno kev, we had a lot of people in both leagues, and a lot more in neither | ||
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